Vader VS.

[scurrymacleod]

first off, Vader, IMO, wasn't a true sith, he's just another fallen Jedi. he never went through the sith training.

 

second, why does everyone think that Sidious is the most powerful sith lord? in TOR's era, many on the dark council would laugh at him.

 

back to the topic...

 

it's in the novels (ROTS at the end especially) that Vader lost most of his powers after Obi-wan defeated him and was put in the suit. Vader pre "the duel", maybe on all, post, forget it, he gets wasted.

[Wolfninjajedi]

first off, Vader, IMO, wasn't a true sith, he's just another fallen Jedi. he never went through the sith training.

 

second, why does everyone think that Sidious is the most powerful sith lord? in TOR's era, many on the dark council would laugh at him.

 

back to the topic...

 

it's in the novels (ROTS at the end especially) that Vader lost most of his powers after Obi-wan defeated him and was put in the suit. Vader pre "the duel", maybe on all, post, forget it, he gets wasted.

 

Ya...no. Vader was a true sith lord, and Palpatine is the most powerful sith lord. He would laugh at the dark council in this era and the emperor, before showing them the true power of the darkside. Post ROTS, Vader became far more powerful then he was before, he didn't reach his full potential mind you but that doesn't mean he still couldn't grow in power and in fact suspected by Sidious he could have still reached his full potential but him doubting himself at what he had done, and what he became he could never accomplish it.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[LordQordisz]

According to Palpatine Vader's lack of significant improvement or reaching his potential had more to do with Vader than with his cybernetic parts. You guys want to bring up the OR, but how many powerful Sith then were part machine. Vader held himself back, at least according to Palps, and I tend to agree because Vader seemed to be confused/doubtful. Still he was a powerhouse. Do NOT underestimate Vader. Read the Rise of Darth Vader. "Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will.....Vader's real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical." [p. 142] Edited July 1, 2012 by LordQordisz

[Wolfninjajedi]

According to Palpatine Vader's lack of significant improvement or reaching his potential had more to do with Vader than with his cybernetic parts. You guys want to bring up the OR, but how many powerful Sith then were part machine. Vader held himself back, at least according to Palps, and I tend to agree because Vader seemed to be confused/doubtful. Still he was a powerhouse. Do NOT underestimate Vader. Read the Rise of Darth Vader. "Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will.....Vader's real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical." [p. 142]

 

^This, plus...how would cybernetics limit the force on someone? The Force can do whatever the hell it wants, I really doubt some machinery can stop the force.

 

I would actually like to see an N-canon story, of Vader reaching his full potential while in his suit would be pretty awesome. A cyborg chosen one full potential? Hell ya.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Makoto_Shishio]

The volume of Vader fanboyism here is almost suffocating. Too bad it's all misplaced.

And this coming from a Revan fanboy that i just owned in a previous thread that wouldnt reply to the overwhelming number of facts?

Caedus: He gave Grand Master Luke problems, and Luke has Vader's Original Potential. So, yeah, Vader loses out in power and abilities.

No arguments there, theres a canon quote that staes caedus > vader.

Sion: Vader, simply put, Can't win. Even though Vader should be the better duelist and possibly stronger in the force, Sion can't die. Vader can knock him down again and again, and it won't matter. Eventually Vader is just going to wear down and Sion will keep hammering him until Vader stops twitching.

According to whom, Vader cant defeat Sion? Kotor2? Oh how i forgot Sion was on a dark side empowered world massively fueling his ablities(according to his own words) and how any other dark side would get the same boost of power.

 

Whats to stop Vader from completely overpowering Sion? Whats to stop him from collapsing entire buildings trapping Sion(which vader has been shown to be completely capable of in the last command) and whats stopping him from outright brutalizing him? Sion only was able to have that much endurance because of malachors energy and by the time Vader is done beating the hell out of him he wont have much willpower to go on against a Sith Lord vastly his superior.

Nihilus: Vader can't do anything here. Nihilus is a Wound in the Force.

So what? Exile was a wound, yet she was completely overpowered by kreias attacks.

Both Nihilus and the Exile were created by the same phenomenon on Malachor 5, and it is why Meetra Surik was able to counteract him and stop Nihilus.

More lies from a deluded fanboy. It was nihilus attempt to feed on another wound that caused it to not work and temporarily weaken him. He was still killed in conventional combat. You are an utter and a horrible liar.

Vader doesn't have that ability. Being "The Chosen One" is irrelevant. His Role is different than that of Meetra Surik's. She was Designed to stop Nihilus. Vader wasn't. All Vader will do is be a meal for Nihilus.

 

LOL where was it stated that she was "designed" to stop Nihilus? LIAR! And Vader is capable of blocking Nihilus feeding techniques as shown when he was still a padawan and blocked the dark reapers energies that drained entire worlds.

 

 

 

Vitiate: Vader dies. Period. He couldn't stand up tp Palps while he was a gnarled, wrinkly old coot in his Weakest form. Vitiate is an immortal with enormous power and over a millennium of experience and was given his title of Darth Vitiate by Marka Ragnos. He easily outclasses Vader in power. Vader won't even have the chance to approach the Sith Emperor.

In his "weakest form"? That "weakest form" of palpatine is vastly superior to your previous Vitiate FYI, you got schooled in a previous thread and still wont reply.

[Makoto_Shishio]

Ya...no. Vader was a true sith lord, and Palpatine is the most powerful sith lord. He would laugh at the dark council in this era and the emperor, before showing them the true power of the darkside. Post ROTS, Vader became far more powerful then he was before, he didn't reach his full potential mind you but that doesn't mean he still couldn't grow in power and in fact suspected by Sidious he could have still reached his full potential but him doubting himself at what he had done, and what he became he could never accomplish it.

While Vader being one of the top powerhouses in the mythos, is not a true sith imo. Why?

 

For one he joined the Sith only in hopes of saving his Wife.

He never cared for the sith ideology nor did he ever believe

in the siths

[LordQordisz]

first off, Vader, IMO, wasn't a true sith, he's just another fallen Jedi. he never went through the sith training.

 

He was trained by Sidious. Also Bane did not get his training in the ways of the Sith until he was older too and this by Dark Jedi. Vader was certainly a true Sith and was one of Palps weapons in destroying the Jedi Order. Palpatine gave him Sith holocrons and taught him the ways of the Sith. Vader was given for instance Darth Malgus' holocron.

 

second, why does everyone think that Sidious is the most powerful sith lord? in TOR's era, many on the dark council would laugh at him.

 

First of all he and Plegeius were responsible for forcing the Force to birth Anakin. He took down the Jedi Order [when was the last time a Sith Lord did that?] and Yoda who was the strongest Jedi ever up until that point could not take him out.

 

it's in the novels (ROTS at the end especially) that Vader lost most of his powers after Obi-wan defeated him and was put in the suit. Vader pre "the duel", maybe on all, post, forget it, he gets wasted.

 

Which is funny since Vader post-duel was stronger. Like I said in my last post, Vader's latency was more mental than physical. Really he let things bother him a bit too much/

[Wolfninjajedi]

While Vader being one of the top powerhouses in the mythos, is not a true sith imo. Why?

 

For one he joined the Sith only in hopes of saving his Wife.

He never cared for the sith ideology nor did he ever believe

in the siths

 

He was trained by Palpatine in the ways of the sith, he was given holocrons, journals, etc its also pretty much stated everywhere that he was a sith lord.

[ReiKai]

The Force can do things. The Individual User is something else. And as has been noted before, thanks to the absurdity that is Midichlorians, the number each person has in their cells tells of how well they communicate with the Force. Basically like a conduit. Anakin/Vader had 20k per cell. Post-Suit, Vader has no arms, no legs below his thighs, and suffered 3rd degree burns across his entire body. So, going by that alone, Vader's ability to connect with the Force is diminished. (don't blame me, GL made up that one).

 

And this Claim that Sid era Sith are stronger than Old Republic ones? A brutal and unconvincing Lie. Dooku was a good duelist, but he was never that powerful. Maul nearly killed Vader in a duel, and Maul isn't all that learned in the Force either, even less so than Dooku. Same goes for Jedi. None of them did ANYTHING that was remotely impressive. And for a group that was "the best ever", they got killed pretty easily. Just look at Savage Opress. He offed a Jedi Knight with ease, and he hadn't even been trained by Dooku yet.

 

And this coming from a Revan fanboy that i just owned in a previous thread that wouldnt reply to the overwhelming number of facts?

 

Not even close. I had been preparing a retort, but since I, you know, WORK, I have other things to do. Plus I debate on other Non-SW related forums and am busy playing SWTOR. So when having to deal with this line of insanity on SW forums, I feel I can take my time. It's not like you're going anywhere.

 

According to whom, Vader cant defeat Sion? Kotor2? Oh how i forgot Sion was on a dark side empowered world massively fueling his ablities(according to his own words) and how any other dark side would get the same boost of power.

 

However, Vader does not possess the same Specific Force Ability that Sion possesses. Sion was pretty much unkillable until he stopped wanting to live with his hate, to which Meetra Surik finally convinced him to let it all go, despite the boon he was getting on Malachor V. Vader would not be one to talk him into letting go of hate.

 

Whats to stop Vader from completely overpowering Sion? Whats to stop him from collapsing entire buildings trapping Sion(which vader has been shown to be completely capable of in the last command) and whats stopping him from outright brutalizing him? Sion only was able to have that much endurance because of malachors energy and by the time Vader is done beating the hell out of him he wont have much willpower to go on against a Sith Lord vastly his superior.

 

Much of what you're alluding to would require Conditions of the Battlezone. The Op didn't specificy what the conditions were, only that these were who Vader would be fighting. So they could be fighting anywhere from a Colisseum to Tattooine's deserts or Hoth's snowy fields. I would like to also point out that Sion wasn't near a Dark Side source at the beginning of KotoR2 and still revived and broke out of the tank on the Ravager (I think it was the name of the Pub ship) even though their tests said he was dead and had more than 2000 fractures on his bones. The medics had no idea how his body was being held together after such trauma.

 

So what? Exile was a wound, yet she was completely overpowered by kreias attacks.

 

Kreia was another matter. Nihilus and Meetra were Polar Opposites. Meetra was created to oppose Nihilus specifically. Kreia, on the other hand, was a Jedi Master who also studdied the Dark Side and could mask her presence from other Force Users, even making herself invisible to their perceptions, even when standing right in front of them (ie Atris on Telos). Kreia was also using 3 lightsabers via TK, on Malacor V, within the Sith Accademy there, and Meetra had to face her right after defeating Sion. And Meetra was still able to defeat Kreia.

 

More lies from a deluded fanboy. It was nihilus attempt to feed on another wound that caused it to not work and temporarily weaken him. He was still killed in conventional combat. You are an utter and a horrible liar.

 

Incorrect. Nihilus was weakened when he tried to feed on Telos under the assumption that Jedi were gathering there. It was a trap set by Kreia, so when he arrived, he had nothing to feed on. From there it came down to Meetra with aid from Visas Marr, who was Force Bonded to Nihilus, in a confrontation with Nihilus. And going by what had already been said; "He is more Presence than Flesh." Also note that Nihilus ability to feed on the Force is not entirely under his control. It's automatic. He will drain from any living thing around him. The only thing he can do is suppress it enough to not kill those still living on the ship, a ship kept together by his power. So essentially, just being near Nihilus, Vader would begin to weaken.

 

LOL where was it stated that she was "designed" to stop Nihilus? LIAR! And Vader is capable of blocking Nihilus feeding techniques as shown when he was still a padawan and blocked the dark reapers energies that drained entire worlds.

 

That was the Basic story in KotoR2. Meetra is a wound opposite that of Nihilus. She was the only one capable of stopping him, given any other Jedi or Force User would be killed getting near him, as shown when Nihilus killed all the Jedi that had gathered on Visas' home world, as well as the planet itself, when directing his Force Drain at them. So I would have to say; Force Wound that eats Planets beats out Emokin.

[MaceTowani]

Ah, my good friend ReiKai. Oh how I have missed you. Everyone else take a back seat. I'll deal with him.

 

The Force can do things. The Individual User is something else. And as has been noted before, thanks to the absurdity that is Midichlorians, the number each person has in their cells tells of how well they communicate with the Force. Basically like a conduit. Anakin/Vader had 20k per cell. Post-Suit, Vader has no arms, no legs below his thighs, and suffered 3rd degree burns across his entire body. So, going by that alone, Vader's ability to connect with the Force is diminished. (don't blame me, GL made up that one).

 

And this Claim that Sid era Sith are stronger than Old Republic ones? A brutal and unconvincing Lie. Dooku was a good duelist, but he was never that powerful. Maul nearly killed Vader in a duel, and Maul isn't all that learned in the Force either, even less so than Dooku. Same goes for Jedi. None of them did ANYTHING that was remotely impressive. And for a group that was "the best ever", they got killed pretty easily. Just look at Savage Opress. He offed a Jedi Knight with ease, and he hadn't even been trained by Dooku yet.[/Quote]

 

Let see,

 

The Greatest Soresu user of all time? Ob-Wan.

The most cunning duelist of all time? Shaak-Ti.

The greatest Makashi practitioner of all time? Count Dooku

The most powerful Grandmaster of all time? Yoda

The Chosen One and who single-handily dismantled the Jedi Order? Anakin Skywalker

The most powerful Sith of all time? Darth Sidious

The most powerful Force User to have ever existed? Luke Skywalker.

The greatest Jedi swordsman to have ever picked up a lightsaber and created his own unique style? Mace Windu

 

Need I go on?

 

 

 

However, Vader does not possess the same Specific Force Ability that Sion possesses. Sion was pretty much unkillable until he stopped wanting to live with his hate, to which Meetra Surik finally convinced him to let it all go, despite the boon he was getting on Malachor V. Vader would not be one to talk him into letting go of hate.

-snip-

 

Doesn't matter where they fight. Darth Vader is the FAR superior combatant than Sion. He doesn't HAVE to convince him of anything. He could chop all of his limbs off and fling them into deep space.

 

 

Incorrect. Nihilus was weakened when he tried to feed on Telos under the assumption that Jedi were gathering there. It was a trap set by Kreia, so when he arrived, he had nothing to feed on. From there it came down to Meetra with aid from Visas Marr, who was Force Bonded to Nihilus, in a confrontation with Nihilus. And going by what had already been said; "He is more Presence than Flesh." Also note that Nihilus ability to feed on the Force is not entirely under his control. It's automatic. He will drain from any living thing around him. The only thing he can do is suppress it enough to not kill those still living on the ship, a ship kept together by his power. So essentially, just being near Nihilus, Vader would begin to weaken.

 

-snip-

 

The greatest argument I have ever seen concocted is the whole, "ONLY MEETRA SURIK CAN BEAT NIHILUS" thing.

 

If Darth Vader can resist the unfathomable power in which Sidious emits, what makes you think Nihilus can do any better? And do you really think that someone in possession of MORE Sith lore than any other Sith before him would be left defenseless against his technique, especially if you consider that Sidious can use THE EXACT SAME TECHNIQUE and HAS done it to slowly eat an entire planet?

[Makoto_Shishio]

The Force can do things. The Individual User is something else. And as has been noted before, thanks to the absurdity that is Midichlorians, the number each person has in their cells tells of how well they communicate with the Force. Basically like a conduit. Anakin/Vader had 20k per cell. Post-Suit, Vader has no arms, no legs below his thighs, and suffered 3rd degree burns across his entire body.

And yet he still has midicholorian count way above almost everyone else in the Mythos.

[quote=ReiKai;4776196

So, going by that alone, Vader's ability to connect with the Force is diminished. (don't blame me, GL made up that one).

More lies from the kotor fanboy. GL never said his connection to the force was diminished(how the hell would sidious even keep him around or how the hell would he even move?), he simply stated that because of his injuries, his potential has been severely reduced. Despite losing his limbs and getting burned, because he has the highest midicholorian count per CELL, he is still pretty much more powerful than the majority of characters.

 

Don't pull statements out of your *** to diminish the power levels of characters you hate.

And this Claim that Sid era Sith are stronger than Old Republic ones? A brutal and unconvincing Lie.

Its been proven time and again with you getting your *** handed and not being able to respond.

Dooku was a good duelist, but he was never that powerful.

Oh? He was stated to have been the greatest makashi user ever, added to that his ability to tool powerul jedi and dark jedi(ventress) by lifting his finger and being able to go toe to toe with yoda, which according to G-canon(the novel) is more powerful than any jedi that preceded him.

Maul nearly killed Vader in a duel,

Because Maul has been stated to have been the deadliest sith apprentice in history? Because the fight was a strict saber duel with no force powers unleashed?

 

and Maul isn't all that learned in the Force either,

Oh? But his saber skills greatly surpasses anoon bondara whose dueling skills have been stated to be greater than that of yodas.

 

even less so than Dooku. Same goes for Jedi. None of them did ANYTHING that was remotely impressive.

Oh really? Lets see

Yoda lifting an entire mountain with the force -check

Mace windu force gripping and levitating 100 tons of rock to slide down a mountain -check

Darth Vader using the force to crush an entire building -check

Vader lifting a 20 story statue with the force - check

 

I havent seen anything that impressive from your precious characters other than the likes of Vitiate,Malgus ,Satale

and Jadus.

And theres plenty more.

And for a group that was "the best ever", they got killed pretty easily. Just look at Savage Opress. He offed a Jedi Knight with ease, and he hadn't even been trained by Dooku yet.

Keyword, A jedi knight. There are plenty of no named jedi's in both era's who do killed rather easily. I don't see how that brings down the order as a whole.

 

 

Not even close. I had been preparing a retort, but since I, you know, WORK, I have other things to do. Plus I debate on other Non-SW related forums and am busy playing SWTOR. So when having to deal with this line of insanity on SW forums, I feel I can take my time. It's not like you're going anywhere.

Yeah im sure you were, considering you never replied once to anyone who tooled you with the facts over the past year. The fact that you think you can even argue against established pretty much proves you're a blithering idiot or just a desperate fanboy of Revan.

 

However, Vader does not possess the same Specific Force Ability that Sion possesses.

And what force ability would that be? The assassin you fight in the SW storyline has the same ability, yet he was nothing special and was tooled by the emperors wrath.

 

Sion was pretty much unkillable until he stopped wanting to live with his hate, to which Meetra Surik finally convinced him to let it all go, despite the boon he was getting on Malachor V.

Because whats so special about the exile? She was an above average jedi at best that bested him.

Vader would not be one to talk him into letting go of hate.

Why would he need to when he is going to completely overpower him in ever aspect of the force? After getting tooled non stop Sion WILL be going to give up, especially when he will acknowledge that vader is his superior.

 

 

. I would like to also point out that Sion wasn't near a Dark Side source at the beginning of KotoR2 and still revived and broke out of the tank on the Ravager (I think it was the name of the Pub ship) even though their tests said he was dead and had more than 2000 fractures on his bones. The medics had no idea how his body was being held together after such trauma.

Well the boost he gets from dark side planets simply enhance his ability to a much greater extent, if any one as strong as he was faced him in combat elsewhere, he wouldn't have the boon nor the extra boost for his abilities and he would have been beaten much faster.

 

How is he exactly going to hold himself together when he gets cleaved by a lightsaber that completely dissentigrates his flesh?

 

 

Kreia, on the other hand, was a Jedi Master who also studdied the Dark Side and could mask her presence from other Force Users, even making herself invisible to their perceptions, even when standing right in front of them (ie Atris on Telos).

Oh please plenty of Movie jedi could do the same. Sidious easily did the same to an entire jedi order that was looking for the sith.

 

Kreia was also using 3 lightsabers via TK,

And grevious used four.... and got cleaved by obi wan....

on Malacor V, within the Sith Accademy there, and Meetra had to face her right after defeating Sion. And Meetra was still able to defeat Kreia .

She was tooled right on dantooine.

 

 

Incorrect. Nihilus was weakened when he tried to feed on Telos under the assumption that Jedi were gathering to feed on Telos under the assumption that Jedi were gathering there. It was a trap set by Kreia, so when he arrive there.

Last i recall, he didn't actually tried to feed on telos considering how there wasn't a single casualty on the station if he really tried to feed. He was weakened when he tried to sever the exiles bond.

 

FYI his real technique according to the game was to sever ones connection to the force and feeds on their death, he doesn't "feed on the force" like you fanboys claim.

It was a trap set by Kreia, so when he arrived, he had nothing to feed on. From there it came down to Meetra with aid from Visas Marr, who was Force Bonded to Nihilus, in a confrontation with Nihilus. And going by what had already been said; "He is more Presence than Flesh." Also note that Nihilus ability to feed on the Force is not entirely under his control. It's automatic. He will drain from any living thing around him. The only thing he can do is suppress it enough to not kill those still living on the ship, a ship kept together by his power. So essentially, just being near Nihilus, Vader would begin to weaken. Oh really? I didnt see mandalore or his bunch of crusaders weakening on the ship at all. It was powerless non force users that were essentially "zombified", a real force user will not succumb to his presence.

 

He doesn't actually "drain" anything like i said. And no, he doesn't "supress his powers on his minions", its been stated many times that he has no control over his hunger at all so once again stop pulling statements out of yourass.

 

 

That was the Basic story in KotoR2. Meetra is a wound opposite that of Nihilus. She was the only one capable of stopping him,

According to who? He can't actually drain or sever a connection of anyone that has the ability to remove themselves from the force, an ability which the majority of Movie era Jedi and sith have shown like how a padawan anakin could do the same thing and not be "force drained" by the dark reaper(which by the way has the ability to drain an entire planet) so your point is moot.

given any other Jedi or Force User would be killed getting near him, as shown when Nihilus killed all the Jedi that had gathered on Visas' home world, as well as the planet itself, when directing his Force Drain at them. So I would have to say; Force Wound that eats Planets beats out Emokin.

See the above.

[Rayla_Felana]

Because whats so special about the exile? She was an above average jedi at best that bested him.

 

I agree with practically everything you've stated, but she was nothing like 'above average at best' a Master of the Light Side, Force Enlightened, she trained six padawans by herself simultaneously and not one of them faulted on their path, they each became foundations of the Jedi Order, her most impressive display was when she went to Malachor V a Dark Side nexus and annihilated the entire Trayus Academy single-handedly a place filled with Sith lords, Marauders and Assassins, then duelled Sion into submission so completely that he gave up the Dark Side and then she killed the master herself Darth Traya, someone who had learned all the knowledge of the Jedi Order and the knowledge of the Sith Lords, Surik is probably the best Jedi of her day, all the others got massacred and were too scared to face the Sith Triumvirate, there wasn't a Jedi we know of who equalled her power for a very long time afterwards.

 

You under-selled her quite a bit there don't you think?

[Aurbere]

As the title suggests, if Vader were pitted against any of the following sith, who would be the victor?

 

 

Vader vs. Caedus

Vader vs. Sion

Vader vs. Nihilus

Vader vs. Exar Kun

Vader vs. Vitiate

 

Caedus would beat Vader because he is basically Vader 2.0. I mean, he was one of the most powerful Jedi of his time, similar to Anakin Skywalker. Turns to the Dark Side for his loved ones, but fails to beat Luke's Jedi Order.

 

Vader beats Sion. Vader would continuously beat Sion to a pulp until Sion just gives up and dies. Unless Vader completely destroys Sion before that point.

 

I don't know about Nihilus. The real question is if Vader can resist Nihilus' powers of drainage and severage of the Force(did I make up those words?) Because if he can't, Nihilus wins. If he can, Vader wins. That's basically what it comes down to.

 

Vader beats Exar Kun. Why? Because Vader outclasses Kun in every aspect. Force power- check. Saber skills- check(maybe, depends on who you ask)

 

Vader vs Vitiate. Again this relies on Vader's ability to resist certain Force Powers. Vitiate is basically Palpatine's prototype, what with Lightning and drainage and just the pure evilness he's got going on. Once again, can Vader resist Vitiate's powers? If you can answer that then you have your answer.

[Rayla_Felana]

Vader beats Exar Kun. Why? Because Vader outclasses Kun in every aspect. Force power- check. Saber skills- check(maybe, depends on who you ask)

 

That's probably the only one I disagree with, Vader wins out where saber skills are concerned, no-brainer.

 

But I disagree with force powers, Kun did so much more than Vader ever did, I honestly don't see how Vader can avoid being put into a coma anymore than Luke could.

[Aurbere]

That's probably the only one I disagree with, Vader wins out where saber skills are concerned, no-brainer.

 

But I disagree with force powers, Kun did so much more than Vader ever did, I honestly don't see how Vader can avoid being put into a coma anymore than Luke could.

 

I was just going off of sheer Force Potential there. Vader being the Chosen One has a higher potential than Kun, but it has been a while since I read the book where Kun returns(can't remember the title). I do believe Kun would beat Vader Force power wise due to Vader not reaching his true potential. If Vader had reached his true potential, he would probably turn Kun into a greasy stain on the ground. My opinion of course.

[Rayla_Felana]

I was just going off of sheer Force Potential there. Vader being the Chosen One has a higher potential than Kun, but it has been a while since I read the book where Kun returns(can't remember the title). I do believe Kun would beat Vader Force power wise due to Vader not reaching his true potential. If Vader had reached his true potential, he would probably turn Kun into a greasy stain on the ground. My opinion of course.

 

Well that goes without saying, Anakin would've stomped all, but that's not what happened, Prime Vader vs prime Kun, Kun wins via Vader being incapacitated on the spot.

[Aurbere]

Well that goes without saying, Anakin would've stomped all, but that's not what happened, Prime Vader vs prime Kun, Kun wins via Vader being incapacitated on the spot.

 

When was Kun's prime? Because as a spirit he put Luke in a coma, but when he was alive he was almost unstoppable. It took the entire Jedi Order to take him down. Then it took the entire new Jedi Order to take him down.

 

Another question. Would Vader have been able to defeat the NJO when it was just starting?

[Rayla_Felana]

When was Kun's prime? Because as a spirit he put Luke in a coma, but when he was alive he was almost unstoppable. It took the entire Jedi Order to take him down. Then it took the entire new Jedi Order to take him down.

 

Another question. Would Vader have been able to defeat the NJO when it was just starting?

 

Well I doubt dead or alive would have mattered and I would think his prime was when he tore the NJO a new one, it took Luke, his old master's spirit and all of the students combined to banish him to the void of the Dark Side.

 

And Luke could have taken Vader by himself at that point, not long afterwards he faced Reborn Palpatine himself and defeated him thoroughly one-on-one in a lightsaber duel by cutting off Palpatine's hand.

[Aurbere]

Well I doubt dead or alive would have mattered and I would think his prime was when he tore the NJO a new one, it took Luke, his old master's spirit and all of the students combined to banish him to the void of the Dark Side.

 

And Luke could have taken Vader by himself at that point, not long afterwards he faced Reborn Palpatine himself and defeated him thoroughly one-on-one in a lightsaber duel by cutting off Palpatine's hand.

 

Well that clears things up, thanks. I'm not learned in Post-ROTJ lore so this helps with vs matches decisions. As it stands now, Kun could beat Vader. Which I find interesting, because Vader is suppose to be the second most powerful Sith Lord. Maybe now he is tied for second.

[Makoto_Shishio]

Well that clears things up, thanks. I'm not learned in Post-ROTJ lore so this helps with vs matches decisions. As it stands now, Kun could beat Vader. Which I find interesting, because Vader is suppose to be the second most powerful Sith Lord. Maybe now he is tied for second.

 

I never really considered Vader to be number 2 honestly. I mean for me Vitiate and Plagueis are tied for number 2, then theres Darth Jadus(he was stated to have powers second only to the emperor)/Bane/Caedus/Kun.

 

 

 

@Rayla

Point conceded i downplayed the exile too much!

[ReiKai]

Let see,

 

The Greatest Soresu user of all time? Ob-Wan.

The most cunning duelist of all time? Shaak-Ti.

The greatest Makashi practitioner of all time? Count Dooku

The most powerful Grandmaster of all time? Yoda

The Chosen One and who single-handily dismantled the Jedi Order? Anakin Skywalker

The most powerful Sith of all time? Darth Sidious

The most powerful Force User to have ever existed? Luke Skywalker.

The greatest Jedi swordsman to have ever picked up a lightsaber and created his own unique style? Mace Windu

 

Need I go on?

 

Let's see.

 

Not Proven

Not Proven

Not Proven

Not Proven

Completely untrue

Hyperbole

Gary Stu

Untrue but he gets credit for being Samuel L Jackson.

 

Doesn't matter where they fight. Darth Vader is the FAR superior combatant than Sion. He doesn't HAVE to convince him of anything. He could chop all of his limbs off and fling them into deep space.

 

All quite untrue. Nvm that Vader has never showed the ability to chuck things into space, nor anyone else for that matter. If he hasn't demonstrated it, then it's fanboy trashtalk. And if chopping Sion into pieces could stop him, Meetra Surik would've done so. Fact is, Sion can hold his own body together, so injuring him is meaningless. The only thing that's not in question is Vader being a greater duelist, because outside of game mechanics, a brief scene where Sion cuts off Kreia's hand and Sion getting PWNED by Nihilus, we don't see his skill with a lightsaber.

 

If Darth Vader can resist the unfathomable power in which Sidious emits, what makes you think Nihilus can do any better? And do you really think that someone in possession of MORE Sith lore than any other Sith before him would be left defenseless against his technique, especially if you consider that Sidious can use THE EXACT SAME TECHNIQUE and HAS done it to slowly eat an entire planet?

 

You do realize that what you said is pure BS, right? "resisting being around Sidious"? Really? If it was really so hard, people would die left and right being around him the entire time he was a Senator and as Supreme Chancellor. As would any Storm Trooper and Imperial Guard that was around him as well. Fact is, he doesn't smush or drain or adversely affect anyone around him in any way. Especially not during the time of TCW and the OT when Palps was old and weak.

 

Also to point out, Sidious did not use the same technique. He wasn't consuming the life force of Byss. He was feeding off the Denizens of Byss (the Populace). I also need to point out that being in Possession of Lore does not mean he Learned everything he could from it, especially Holocrons. Nvm that most Lore is lost, destroyed over time, or simply cannot be understood by certain individuals. Look at Darth Krayt. He had Darth Andeddu's, Bane's and Nihilus' holocrons. All of their Gatekeepers denied him access to their knowledge.

 

Another point is some knowledge, techniques and such can fall outside of a force users ability to grasp. Such was the case with Darth Bane in trying to understand all the techniques and Force Rituals being taught by Darth Revan's holocron. In the end, most of it went right over his head, which is why he'd passed it into Zannah later on when he took her as his apprentice. Such an inability to learn has been demonstrated by Anakin/Vader. He never went beyond the basics and the only thing he ever did was rely on brute power and increase the strength of his TK. Anything that didn't involve TK he either couldn't use or was unable to learn. Having access to a database of even infinite knowledge means squat if you can't understand any of it.

 

More lies from the kotor fanboy. GL never said his connection to the force was diminished(how the hell would sidious even keep him around or how the hell would he even move?), he simply stated that because of his injuries, his potential has been severely reduced. Despite losing his limbs and getting burned, because he has the highest midicholorian count per CELL, he is still pretty much more powerful than the majority of characters.

 

This would be your lie. Combine that with this-

Don't pull statements out of your *** to diminish the power levels of characters you hate.

 

And you pretty much just sealed your own fate. If will first answer this; "Why would Sid keep him around?" That's simple; He needed an enforcer. And given the fact that Vader was now incapable of becoming stronger than himself, that made him ideal as Sidious has always been afraid of anyone who might surpass him or team with another Force User against him. Vader's broken physical and mental state made it much easier for Sidious to control him, and we saw how easy it was for him to manipulate Anakin already.

 

Now, onto your completely foolish idea that MC "Power Levels" hold any weight whatsoever. This is not DBZ. The guy with the highest "Power Level" does not always win. Moreover it tends to be the guy who is Smarter and has more abilities and techniques to pull out of their bag of tricks that takes the lead. Plus there is the fact that No Canon Numerical Value has Ever Been Given To Any Other Force Using Character In The SWU. Which makes, not only comparisons impossible, but makes the entire notion of "Higher MC count > Lower MC Count" completely worthless and meaningless.

 

That also goes right along with the "Vader is 80% Sidious power". It's meaningless. When you try and use the "Most powerful Sith ever" as the Benchmark for Sith, all you do is set yourself up for Massive Fail. Nvm that it is entirely meaningless in and of itself to make such an assertion without, again, creating a Guidebook specifically to state the "Power Level" of each Jedi/Sith or Force User in the SWU in regards to each other.

 

Its been proven time and again with you getting your *** handed and not being able to respond.

 

I choose when and how I respond, not you or anyone else. And congrats on completely ignoring[/]b my argument. You Claimed Sid era sith were strongest. The only ones who even count aside from Sidious himself were Vader, Maul and Dooku, along with mayb Vader's secret apprentices. Did any of them tear at Stars? Drain Planets? Make the ground quake just by moving? Corrupt thousands of Jedi at once? Create mass illusions across the Republic?

 

Or how about Jedi feats like; Deflecting turret blaster fire with a Force Shield? Cutting someone off from the Force? Influencing the minds of entire fleet crews (via Battle Meditation)?

 

Oh? He was stated to have been the greatest makashi user ever, added to that his ability to tool powerul jedi and dark jedi(ventress) by lifting his finger and being able to go toe to toe with yoda, which according to G-canon(the novel) is more powerful than any jedi that preceded him.

 

See above. Your argument is bunk. And he didn't go "Toe to toe" with Yoda. He tried to, and he was losing, so he resorted to what he always does; drop something on others and run while Yoda is distracted. Honestly the whole crew of the PT and OT eras were so Weak when it came to Force abilities it was downright laughable. And such statement such as Obi-Wan saying "Anakin is the most powerful Jedi ever known!" is complete hyperbole as, for one, he's only speaking from his own Personal knowledge of what he May have learned from the Jedi Archives. Archives and information that has been damaged, destroyed, lost and fragmented over thousands of years. Character statements like that are, quite frankly, useless.

 

Oh? But his saber skills greatly surpasses anoon bondara whose dueling skills have been stated to be greater than that of yodas.

 

Incorrect. Anoon Bondara wasn't a master duelist to rival Yoda. He was the Master of Teras Kasi, which was the Hand-to-Hand Martial Art taught to Jedi. In terms of Saber Skills, he was only above average and Maul killed him far more easily than he did Bondara's Padawan, who was stronger in the Force than Bondara was, but she lacked the experience and training necessary to really challenge Maul.

 

Oh really? Lets see

Yoda lifting an entire mountain with the force -check

Mace windu force gripping and levitating 100 tons of rock to slide down a mountain -check

Darth Vader using the force to crush an entire building -check

Vader lifting a 20 story statue with the force - check

 

Jedi in Luke's Order (forget the name), TK'd Star Destroyer's out of a solar system.

Master Thon forced back and sealed the Dark Side corrupting a Planet that was unleashed by a powerful Sith Sorceress into one location, a Lake, which then corrupted and mutated any lifeform that touched its waters.

 

As fo Mace and Windu, quote sources or I will assume you're trying to pull things from TCW that're nowhere near the level you're claiming.

 

Keyword, A jedi knight. There are plenty of no named jedi's in both era's who do killed rather easily. I don't see how that brings down the order as a whole.

 

When 99.9999999999% of the Jedi Order is Cannon Fodder, then it does explain how the Order falls so easily. Especially with, and this is something I enjoyed watching right here, HK-47 and his explanation on how to kill Jedi ->

 

Yeah im sure you were, considering you never replied once to anyone who tooled you with the facts over the past year. The fact that you think you can even argue against established pretty much proves you're a blithering idiot or just a desperate fanboy of Revan.

 

"tooled"? Oh do you refer to "Repeating the same innane statements over and over again in an attempt to flame the entire debate and aggrivate anyone with even a shred of decency". Is that what you mean by "tooled"? Because, quite frankly, we have a term for people who act like that. It's called a "Troll".

 

And what force ability would that be? The assassin you fight in the SW storyline has the same ability, yet he was nothing special and was tooled by the emperors wrath.

 

No, he doesn't have the same ability. What he did was claim that "I cannot die!" and then what happened was you beat him several times, drop'im into a pit of fire, leave, and he comes back later having been "Saved" and turned into a Cyborg to keep him alive. Need I remind you that Character Statements tend to be overly exaggerated.

 

Why would he need to when he is going to completely overpower him in ever aspect of the force? After getting tooled non stop Sion WILL be going to give up, especially when he will acknowledge that vader is his superior.

 

That would be your opinion on how things would play out. Vader is the greater duelist, since there is nothing to show Sion being all that great given his one game appearance. However, why should or why would Sion surrender when it's impossible for Vader to win? Why would Vader keep fighting a hopeless battle against an adversary he knows he cannot kill? Someone who can continually keep coming at him no matter how many times he's beaten? Sion is like the Juggernaut. He'll just keep coming and coming and coming, unless you can convince him to stop.

 

Well the boost he gets from dark side planets simply enhance his ability to a much greater extent, if any one as strong as he was faced him in combat elsewhere, he wouldn't have the boon nor the extra boost for his abilities and he would have been beaten much faster.

 

No, he'd still have the boon, it just wouldn't really change anything. He'd still be unkillable. You either need to;

 

A) Convince or trick him into discontinuiting his fight, abandoning his hatred and allow himself to die.

B} BFR him (ie, send him somewhere in a manner that makes him unable to return under his own power)

C) Immobilize him in a way that prevents him from getting free under his own power.

 

How is he exactly going to hold himself together when he gets cleaved by a lightsaber that completely dissentigrates his flesh?

 

How do you think he did it when Meetra hacked, slashed and "beat" him three times in a row? You think she was coming at him with a foam bat instead of her lightsaber? Also there is the possibility that Sion's ability to "Hold his body together" also enables him to resist getting cut into by a lightsaber, which would explain the lack of severed limbs. However that is speculation based on what little information we have regarding him. All we do know is that Meetra Surik, the Exile, fought him in a duel with her lightsaber and put him down several times before convincing him to let go of his hate.

 

Oh please plenty of Movie jedi could do the same. Sidious easily did the same to an entire jedi order that was looking for the sith.

 

No, they didn't. And neither did Sid. Kreia actually made herself Invisibleto Force Users. When you speak to Atris at the Academy on Telos, she never even saw Kreia, even when Kreia was right in front of her. The Handmaiden's could, because they were trained specifically to block themselves from the Force entirely, closing their minds to it completely, which meant Kreia could not affect them. All that Sid and Maul did in the Movies and EU novels during that time was mask their intentions and dark side presence from being sensed. They were still very clearly Physically Visible to everyone.

 

What Jedi did was not make themselves invisible, but use a Mind Trick to avert attention away from themselves. Which, along with most Jedi Mind Tricks, only works on the weak willed.

 

And grevious used four.... and got cleaved by obi wan....

 

Grievous had Mechanical Arms and No Force Abilities. Kreia could make them come from any direction by will alone. Grievous still runs on motors and joints. Frankly, any intelligent Force User would TK Grievous into the air and hurl his iron keister off a cliff.

 

She was tooled right on dantooine.

 

Who was tooled? Because Meetra was before 3 Masters of the Jedi Council, who were going to cut Meetra off from the Force again, until Kreia stepped in and killed all three of them at once with apparent ease. Then gave Meetra more cryptic lines and left for Malachor V.

 

Last i recall, he didn't actually tried to feed on telos considering how there wasn't a single casualty on the station if he really tried to feed. He was weakened when he tried to sever the exiles bond.

 

He tried to feed on the Planet of Telos, not the Space Station.

 

He doesn't actually "drain" anything like i said. And no, he doesn't "supress his powers on his minions", its been stated many times that he has no control over his hunger at all so once again stop pulling statements out of yourass.

 

If he couldn't hold back his hunger at all, anyone on his ship would've died almost instantly. And since you do meet Living people on his ship, that means he's pulled it back enough so that they can continue serving him, at least until they die from exposure to his presence.

 

According to who? He can't actually drain or sever a connection of anyone that has the ability to remove themselves from the force, an ability which the majority of Movie era Jedi and sith have shown like how a padawan anakin could do the same thing and not be "force drained" by the dark reaper(which by the way has the ability to drain an entire planet) so your point is moot.

 

That's misinformation. Your idea of "removing oneself from the Force" is, what Sid and others did, masking their intentions to keep from being sensed. Severing ones connection to the Force is completely different. Like what Nomi Sunstrider did to Ulic Qel-Droma. She severed his connection to the Force, which completely disabled his ability to communicate with and/or use the Force in any way.

 

So, once more, you don't even seem to have a grasp of what you yourself are talking about.

[Makoto_Shishio]

Let's see.

 

Not Proven

Not Proven

Not Proven

Not Proven

Completely untrue

Hyperbole

Gary Stu

Untrue but he gets credit for being Samuel L Jackson.

All of it has been proven by countless source mat.erial which you obviously always ignore

 

 

All quite untrue. Nvm that Vader has never showed the ability to chuck things into space, nor anyone else for that matter.

Oh really? Last i recall he overpowered starkiller many times and DID chuck him into space!.

 

 

If he hasn't demonstrated it, then it's fanboy trashtalk.

Ironic that this is coming from probably the worst Revan fanboy in existence who delibrately ignores any canon statement that proves certain characters > your favourites.

And if chopping Sion into pieces could stop him, Meetra Surik would've done so.

Well we don't know the exact circumstances of the battle whether or not Surik REALLY cleaved him with a lightsaber because according to common sense and canon fact, a lightsaber dissintigrates flesh, there is no way Sion can hold together something that is completely burned away.

 

Fact is, Sion can hold his own body together, so injuring him is meaningless. The only thing that's not in question is Vader being a greater duelist, because outside of game mechanics, a brief scene where Sion cuts off Kreia's hand and Sion getting PWNED by Nihilus, we don't see his skill with a lightsaber.

A greater duelist and a far superior force user who has demonstrated things thousands of times better than sion.

 

 

You do realize that what you said is pure BS, right? "resisting being around Sidious"? Really? If it was really so hard, people would die left and right being around him the entire time he was a Senator and as Supreme Chancellor.

Because he had control over his powers you dolt unlike your precious nihilus who practically had no control over his abilities and hunger. Palpatines mere presence ****ed an entire planet up and turned it into "one of the galaxies most powerful dark side nexus".

As would any Storm Trooper and Imperial Guard that was around him as well. Fact is, he doesn't smush or drain or adversely affect anyone around him in any way. Especially not during the time of TCW and the OT when Palps was old and weak.

Palpatine was far from weak considering the ancient sith FEARED and respected palpatine and even admitted he was the most powerful sith EVER. Again, unlike nihilus, Palpatine has absolute control over his powers.

Also to point out, Sidious did not use the same technique. He wasn't consuming the life force of Byss. He was feeding off the Denizens of Byss (the Populace).

Yes he was. Dark empire source book stated he was draining the planets life force and turned a "lush fertile world into a powerful dark side nexus".

I also need to point out that being in Possession of Lore does not mean he Learned everything he could from it, especially Holocrons. Nvm that most Lore is lost, destroyed over time, or simply cannot be understood by certain individuals. Look at Darth Krayt. He had Darth Andeddu's, Bane's and Nihilus' holocrons. All of their Gatekeepers denied him access to their knowledge.

They denied Krayt because he was a pretender, why would they deny Sidious when he was the only sith in history to actually conquer the galaxy and wipe out the jedi order? Again you're gasping at straws.

Another point is some knowledge, techniques and such can fall outside of a force users ability to grasp. Such was the case with Darth Bane in trying to understand all the techniques and Force Rituals being taught by Darth Revan's holocron. In the end, most of it went right over his head, which is why he'd passed it into Zannah later on when he took her as his apprentice. Such an inability to learn has been demonstrated by Anakin/Vader. He never went beyond the basics and the only thing he ever did was rely on brute power and increase the strength of his TK. Anything that didn't involve TK he either couldn't use or was unable to learn. Having access to a database of even infinite knowledge means squat if you can't understand any of it.

And the thing is Vader never had that knowledge yet even with the most basic techniques, he is vastly more powerful than any of the characters in the Mythos.

 

 

This would be your lie. Combine that with this-

How is this exactly a lie when the MOVIE showed anakin having the highest midichlorian count via a small BLOOD SAMPLE? You seriously are a pathetic 15 year old fanboy.

 

 

 

And you pretty much just sealed your own fate. If will first answer this; "Why would Sid keep him around?" That's simple; He needed an enforcer. And given the fact that Vader was now incapable of becoming stronger than himself, that made him ideal as Sidious has always been afraid of anyone who might surpass him or team with another Force User against him. Vader's broken physical and mental state made it much easier for Sidious to control him, and we saw how easy it was for him to manipulate Anakin already.

And your point is?

 

Now, onto your completely foolish idea that MC "Power Levels" hold any weight whatsoever.

You're the one that brought this up, so dont tell me im foolish when everyone else in this forum thinks you're a blithering idiot with raging hormones for tor era characters.

 

This is not DBZ. The guy with the highest "Power Level" does not always win. Moreover it tends to be the guy who is Smarter and has more abilities and techniques to pull out of their bag of tricks that takes the lead. Plus there is the fact that No Canon Numerical Value has Ever Been Given To Any Other Force Using Character In The SWU. Which makes, not only comparisons impossible, but makes the entire notion of "Higher MC count > Lower MC Count" completely worthless and meaningless.[/Quote]

 

. And as has been noted before, thanks to the absurdity that is Midichlorians, the number each person has in their cells tells of how well they communicate with the Force. Basically like a conduit. Anakin/Vader had 20k per cell. Post-Suit, Vader has no arms, no legs below his thighs, and suffered 3rd degree burns across his entire body. So, going by that alone, Vader's ability to connect with the Force is diminished.

 

^Your own quote, You first tell me how Vader has a weakened connection to the force because of him having less MC's after his injuries, now you're telling me something that contradicts what you just said earlier. You now say but makes the entire notion of "Higher MC count > Lower MC Count" completely worthless and meaningless about Mc's

 

You are without doubt the stupidest person on this board, no wonder nobody ever takes you seriously.

 

 

 

 

That also goes right along with the "Vader is 80% Sidious power". It's meaningless. When you try and use the "Most powerful Sith ever" as the Benchmark for Sith, all you do is set yourself up for Massive Fail. Nvm that it is entirely meaningless in and of itself to make such an assertion without, again, creating a Guidebook specifically to state the "Power Level" of each Jedi/Sith or Force User in the SWU in regards to each other.

Hence the fact we are debating hypothetically with you getting your *** handed to you constantly.

 

I choose when and how I respond, not you or anyone else. And congrats on completely ignoring[/]b my argument. You Claimed Sid era sith were strongest. The only ones who even count aside from Sidious himself were Vader, Maul and Dooku, along with mayb Vader's secret apprentices. Did any of them tear at Stars? Drain Planets? Make the ground quake just by moving? Corrupt thousands of Jedi at once? Create mass illusions across the Republic?

First off iv defeated your claim at sadow "tearing at stars" considering the actually comic and sourcebook state AND SHOWS that it was sadows SHIP that utilized technology to blow up stars which you obviously ignored.

 

And LOL exar kun making the ground shake? Do you know what a hyperbole is? A rodian stating he shook the ground while walking and you take it so literally? Are you dense or just stupid?

 

Oh please a weakling like aleema keto could do massive illusions yet she is nothing special. Palpatine could do a galaxy wide battle meditation with utter ease.

 

And yes, palpatine DID drain planets.

 

 

The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force.He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed.

-- Death Star, page 76.

 

"...Yoda could defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

-- The New Essential Chronology, page 84

 

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72.

 

Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

 

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."[/b]

 

Empire's End(audio book), one of the Ancient Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

 

Star Wars Insider, [/b]Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine.[/b]

 

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: Palpatine at his peak.

 

Essential Chronology: the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

 

[The Galactic Emperor] had succeeded where all others failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe, spreading the shadow of his rule, blotting out the stars themselves, and taking his Dark Rule to other helpless galaxies.

 

Or how about Jedi feats like; Deflecting turret blaster fire with a Force Shield?

Cutting someone off from the Force?

A neophtye untrained leia.

Influencing the minds of entire fleet crews (via Battle Meditation)?

Palpatine, and it was a galaxy wide battle meditation.

 

And then theres jorrus c boath, a mere dark jedi who controlled entire fleets with his mind.

 

 

 

See above. Your argument is bunk. And he didn't go "Toe to toe" with Yoda. He tried to, and he was losing, so he resorted to what he always does; drop something on others and run while Yoda is distracted.

Yes he did because your previous Revan would have been slaughtered had he gone head to head with yoda.

Honestly the whole crew of the PT and OT eras were so Weak when it came to Force abilities it was downright laughable.

Yet it still greatly surpasses anything done by your precious jedi order in TOR. Really, the only great feats i see from that era were from the main characters(malgus,vitiate,revan,shan,jadus). If the PT/OT era order was so laughable, what does that make your precious TOR order look like then?

 

Considering than at emperor in hiding for 1400 years couldn't even take down the republic and do any damage to the jedi order or the galactic republic.

And such statement such as Obi-Wan saying "Anakin is the most powerful Jedi ever known!" is complete hyperbole as, for one, he's only speaking from his own Personal knowledge of what he May have learned from the Jedi Archives

Ah, you muist have forgot that its simply the fact that he is simply mouthing the words of what the director or author intended.

. Archives and information that has been damaged, destroyed, lost and fragmented over thousands of years. Character statements like that are, quite frankly, useless.

Nope, its not. Prove that its lost and destroyed,

 

 

Incorrect. Anoon Bondara wasn't a master duelist to rival Yoda.

It was stated in one of the novels.

He was the Master of Teras Kasi, which was the Hand-to-Hand Martial Art taught to Jedi. In terms of Saber Skills, he was only above average and Maul killed him far more easily than he did Bondara's Padawan, who was stronger in the Force than Bondara was, but she lacked the experience and training necessary to really challenge Maul.

See the above.

 

 

Jedi in Luke's Order (forget the name), TK'd Star Destroyer's out of a solar system.

And jedi in luke orders > the movies that > your era. So your point is moot. Whats your point? This is between TOR era and PT era, not luke era and PT era!

Master Thon forced back and sealed the Dark Side corrupting a Planet that was unleashed by a powerful Sith Sorceress into one location, a Lake, which then corrupted and mutated any lifeform that touched its waters.

And yoda merged the entire dark side of dagobah into a single cave.

As fo Mace and Windu, quote sources or I will assume you're trying to pull things from TCW that're nowhere near the level you're claiming./QUOTE] shatterpoint novel, why should i provide a quote when you have yet to provided a single shred of evidence?

 

Prove up or shut up, which you have yet to do either.

 

 

When 99.9999999999% of the Jedi Order is Cannon Fodder, then it does explain how the Order falls so easily. Especially with, and this is something I enjoyed watching right here, HK-47 and his explanation on how to kill Jedi ->

Yeah, that applies to your precious era.

 

 

"tooled"? Oh do you refer to "Repeating the same innane statements over and over again in an attempt to flame the entire debate and aggrivate anyone with even a shred of decency".

Canon facts = innane statements? Posting canon facts = trolling you? So basically anyone who disagrees with you is a troll? Wow.

 

Is that what you mean by "tooled"? Because, quite frankly, we have a term for people who act like that. It's called a "Troll".

No, its the fact that you have never once posted a cohesive rebuttal when your *** gets handed on a platter, especially when faced with overwhelming evidence. This time you're arguing but making attempts to distort and ignore facts,

 

 

No, he doesn't have the same ability. What he did was claim that "I cannot die!" and then what happened was you beat him several times, drop'im into a pit of fire, leave, and he comes back later having been "Saved" and turned into a Cyborg to keep him alive. Need I remind you that Character Statements tend to be overly exaggerated.

ergo he has the same abiltiy like Sion to a greater degree considering he actually falls into lava and still survives.

 

 

That would be your opinion on how things would play out. Vader is the greater duelist, since there is nothing to show Sion being all that great given his one game appearance. However, why should or why would Sion surrender when it's impossible for Vader to win?

How exactly is it impossible for vader to win, when sion gets his abilities cancelled out(which vader has shown in the RODV novel) and then completely overpowered and ragdolled over the whole place?

 

If sion is oh so almight as you say he is, why didn't he attempt to kill kreia when she was on malachor V again at the end of KOTOR2, why submit to her out of fear?

Why would Vader keep fighting a hopeless battle against an adversary he knows he cannot kill?

Because beating an opponent doesn't mean killing him, and sion WILL acknowledge that Vader is his vast superior after getting beaten down time and again.

 

And then tell me, how would sion survive if a lightsaber severs his head off?

 

Someone who can continually keep coming at him no matter how many times he's beaten?

How would that intimidate Vader? Considering that the only person that vader feard was Sidious?

Sion is like the Juggernaut. He'll just keep coming and coming and coming, unless you can convince him to stop.

You need to actually prove Sion can survive a direct lightsaber strike. Because atfer getting continiously beaten Sion is going to tell himself that he cant beat his opponent.

 

 

No, he'd still have the boon, it just wouldn't really change anything. He'd still be unkillable. You either need to;

Prove he is immortal. In a deleted cutscene Kreia utterly tools him with the force and he submits in fear. Whats to stop vader from doing the same.

A) Convince or trick him into discontinuiting his fight, abandoning his hatred and allow himself to die.

Whats to stop Vader from doing that? Hes been shown to be an excellent contender in psychological warefare and dun moch.

B} BFR him (ie, send him somewhere in a manner that makes him unable to return under his own power)

C) Immobilize him in a way that prevents him from getting free under his own power.

And in the last command and LOE, Vader could collapse a 20 story building with just his rage, if he collapses a friggin heavy object in sion(which he will), he beats sion even easier than he would in a normal fight.

 

How do you think he did it when Meetra hacked, slashed and "beat" him three times in a row?

How do you know Surik actually cleaved Sion apart and he held himself together? The whole fight was a friggin gameplay mechanic, how do you know it wasn't surik simply being the better duelist and pushing Sion back?

You think she was coming at him with a foam bat instead of her lightsaber? Also there is the possibility that Sion's ability to "Hold his body together" also enables him to resist getting cut into by a lightsaber, which would explain the lack of severed limbs. However that is speculation based on what little information we have regarding him. All we do know is that Meetra Surik,

And its also a "possibility" that SW takes place on a microscopic scale in lucas rectum.

 

Without evidence, dont claim it.

 

the Exile, fought him in a duel with her lightsaber and put him down several times before convincing him to let go of his hate.

Putting him down doesn't mean actually cleaving him across with a lightsaber, it could be continously pushing him back, pushing him against a wall etc etc. Youd have to prove he can survive a strike from a weapon that pulverises flesh, how do you hold onto something that burns away?

 

 

No, they didn't. And neither did Sid.

Yes they did.

 

Kreia actually made herself Invisibleto Force Users.

Um ok, and? Im talking about how sidious could mask his presence from thousands of other jedi.

 

And please, Vader also defeated the dark lady, a former council member that could also go invisible and phase through walls.

 

 

 

What Jedi did was not make themselves invisible, but use a Mind Trick to avert attention away from themselves. Which, along with most Jedi Mind Tricks, only works on the weak willed.

Ok and your point is?

 

 

 

Grievous had Mechanical Arms and No Force Abilities. Kreia could make them come from any direction by will alone. Grievous still runs on motors and joints.

Your logic is "More sabers = more skilled". Im simply proving you wrong.

Frankly, any intelligent Force User would TK Grievous into the air and hurl his iron keister off a cliff.

Frankly, any intelligent force user would force crush kreias lightsaber. Point moot.

 

 

Who was tooled? Because Meetra was before 3 Masters of the Jedi Council, who were going to cut Meetra off from the Force again, until Kreia stepped in and killed all three of them at once with apparent ease. Then gave Meetra more cryptic lines and left for Malachor V.

My point is any forcer user can get tooled when get caught off guard, which happened to Revan,Vitiate,Vader and starkiller.

 

 

He tried to feed on the Planet of Telos, not the Space Station.

He feeds on more than merely planets dolt, it includes its inhabitants as well.

 

 

If he couldn't hold back his hunger at all, anyone on his ship would've died almost instantly. And since you do meet Living people on his ship, that means he's pulled it back enough so that they can continue serving him, at least until they die from exposure to his presence.

Prove it. The game itself(which > you) states he has no control over his hunger, meaning if he needs to feed, he needs to consume.

 

 

That's misinformation. Your idea of "removing oneself from the Force" is, what Sid and others did, masking their intentions to keep from being sensed.

No, its completely concealing their connection thus they cant be sensed at all. If you can hide your connection, theres no connection for you to sever. Its the same concept of the invisible man, if he cloaks, you cant friggin see him so you cant shoot him.

Severing ones connection to the Force is completely different. Like what Nomi Sunstrider did to Ulic Qel-Droma. She severed his connection to the Force, which completely disabled his ability to communicate with and/or use the Force in any way.

Thats true that its completely different. Because once one masks his/her connection, you cant sense it, you cant sense his/her connection to the force, you cant touch their bond nor sever what you cant sense or see.

So, once more, you don't even seem to have a grasp of what you yourself are talking about.

Huh and this coming from a guy who twists facts, lies and ignores canon.

 

Reikai, you have been http://gmatclub.com/forum/pwned-114982.html PWNED once more.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Makoto_Shishio

[Rayla_Felana]

Such an inability to learn has been demonstrated by Anakin/Vader. He never went beyond the basics and the only thing he ever did was rely on brute power and increase the strength of his TK. Anything that didn't involve TK he either couldn't use or was unable to learn. Having access to a database of even infinite knowledge means squat if you can't understand any of it.

 

That's why Darth Sidious gave him Darth Malgus' journal as inspiration and knowledge of the way of the Sith Warrior then is it?

 

That would be your opinion on how things would play out. Vader is the greater duelist, since there is nothing to show Sion being all that great given his one game appearance. However, why should or why would Sion surrender when it's impossible for Vader to win? Why would Vader keep fighting a hopeless battle against an adversary he knows he cannot kill? Someone who can continually keep coming at him no matter how many times he's beaten? Sion is like the Juggernaut. He'll just keep coming and coming and coming, unless you can convince him to stop.

 

Vader is clearly a far superior duellist to Surik and he was THE Juggernaut, have you any idea of the normally fatal injuries he sustained throughout his tenure as a Sith Lord?

 

Who was tooled? Because Meetra was before 3 Masters of the Jedi Council, who were going to cut Meetra off from the Force again, until Kreia stepped in and killed all three of them at once with apparent ease. Then gave Meetra more cryptic lines and left for Malachor V.

 

Incorrect, canonically Surik freely submitted to the councils judgement and allowed them to remove her abilities, she'd only be 'tooled' if she was actually fighting back, which she wasn't.

[MaceTowani]

Let's see.

 

Not Proven

Not Proven

Not Proven

Not Proven

Completely untrue

Hyperbole

Gary Stu

Untrue but he gets credit for being Samuel L Jackson.

 

 

 

"That is so like you, Master Kenobi. I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?"

―Mace Windu to Obi-Wan Kenobi[src]

^Obi-Wan wasn't -A- master of Soresu, he was -THE- master of it. And what evidence do you have to counter this? None.

 

 

 

"…and Shaak Ti's the most cunning Jedi I've met. She's even taught me a few tricks."

―Obi-Wan Kenobi[src]

^Here, the greatest Soresu practioner gives a nod to Shaak Ti. Again, you have no evidence or argument to say that she's -NOT- the most cunning warrior of all time.

 

He was one of a very few practitioners of dueling-centric Makashi in the Order at the time,[1] and unmatched in his mastery of it.[26]

^Count Dooku, in a time where Jedi and Sith were at their most powerful, was unmatched in his practice of Makashi. Now what evidence do you have to counter this? Let me guess....none.

 

Considered the greatest Jedi Master of the era by many, Yoda was one of the most skilled users of the Force in the history of the galaxy.

^There is no other Jedi before Yoda who was more powerful than him. If the Old Republic Sith such as "Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos," and etc are considered to be on a firmly lower tier than Sidious, then we can infer that Jedi such as "Thon, Nomi Sunrider, and Ulic" are on a firmly lower tier than Yoda.

 

So Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader didn't dismantle the Jedi Order with his bare hands/lightsaber? Also, if you want to bring up Yoda/Obi-Wan. Well, 1)Vader killed Obi-Wan and 2)Yoda exiled himself, so he wasn't considered a Jedi. Also, any scattered Jedi that MAY have been alive cannot truly be considered Jedi if there is no Jedi Order.

 

Shortly after the death of his master, Sidious received a most powerful vision from voices that proclaimed his reign.

 

”Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time.”-- The Complete Visual Dictionary.

 

 

“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.” (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)

 

“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.”(The New Essential Chronology, page 84 )

 

Now what is the hyperbole?

 

Gary Stu=Most Powerful. Thanks for agreeing with me.

 

Windu was one of the greatest swordsmen of his time. He defeated Sora Bulq during their duel on Ruul and overwhelmed Asajj Ventress shortly afterwards. Windu also overwhelmed Count Dooku during the battle of Boz Pity[42] and even managed to defeat Darth Sidious himself in a duel

 

But I guess defeating the most powerful Sith Lord in history in a lightsaber duel doesn't mean anything huh?

 

All quite untrue. Nvm that Vader has never showed the ability to chuck things into space, nor anyone else for that matter. If he hasn't demonstrated it, then it's fanboy trashtalk. And if chopping Sion into pieces could stop him, Meetra Surik would've done so. Fact is, Sion can hold his own body together, so injuring him is meaningless. The only thing that's not in question is Vader being a greater duelist, because outside of game mechanics, a brief scene where Sion cuts off Kreia's hand and Sion getting PWNED by Nihilus, we don't see his skill with a lightsaber.[/Quote]

 

Then we must infer that Vader is a better duelist until PROVEN otherwise, which you just stated we can't. So as of now, Vader > Sion until further notice.

 

You do realize that what you said is pure BS, right? "resisting being around Sidious"? Really? If it was really so hard, people would die left and right being around him the entire time he was a Senator and as Supreme Chancellor. As would any Storm Trooper and Imperial Guard that was around him as well. Fact is, he doesn't smush or drain or adversely affect anyone around him in any way. Especially not during the time of TCW and the OT when Palps was old and weak.

 

Sidious practiced something called CONTROL. Nihilus COULDN'T control the power, the power CONTROLLED HIM.

 

Also to point out, Sidious did not use the same technique. He wasn't consuming the life force of Byss. He was feeding off the Denizens of Byss (the Populace). I also need to point out that being in Possession of Lore does not mean he Learned everything he could from it, especially Holocrons. Nvm that most Lore is lost, destroyed over time, or simply cannot be understood by certain individuals. Look at Darth Krayt. He had Darth Andeddu's, Bane's and Nihilus' holocrons. All of their Gatekeepers denied him access to their knowledge.

 

It is the same technique, it was being applied differently.

 

Darth Krayt was denied access because he was "blasphemous." And assuming that Vader was denied access, which is highly improbable, he could simply ask the most powerful Sith in history, Sidious, to teach him.

 

Another point is some knowledge, techniques and such can fall outside of a force users ability to grasp. Such was the case with Darth Bane in trying to understand all the techniques and Force Rituals being taught by Darth Revan's holocron. In the end, most of it went right over his head, which is why he'd passed it into Zannah later on when he took her as his apprentice. Such an inability to learn has been demonstrated by Anakin/Vader. He never went beyond the basics and the only thing he ever did was rely on brute power and increase the strength of his TK. Anything that didn't involve TK he either couldn't use or was unable to learn. Having access to a database of even infinite knowledge means squat if you can't understand any of it.

 

I guess being the greatest Djem So practitioner means you never passed the basics right?

 

Also, he didn't demonstrate anything more than TK because he didn't HAVE to do anything else. He can RESIST Force Lightning, can overpower any other Force User save Sidious in a battle of TK (his scope so great that he can Force Choke someone from across space) and his lightsaber prowess is virtually unmatched.

Edited July 6, 2012 by MaceTowani

[Wolfninjajedi]

Well Mace according to a guy on comicvine, Mace never won the duel either. I put up a thread about it, so take a look cause I am confused about it now. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=499124 Edited July 6, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi