XenTharqua Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Lately, there have been a lot of posts about the state of healers in pvp. In the right hands, good healers are basically unkillable. As a shadow tank, coupled with a good healer, I have been able to defend single points versus opposite teams of 4-5 players. On many occasion, I have spotted groups of 3 healers + 1 tank able to heal themselves against a team of 7-8 players. A very simple look at the expertise stat is enough to see why this problem is becoming more important: A defending healer gets double benefit from expertise through reduced damage and increased healing, while attackers gets only an increase in damage for the same amount. The fix is simple : damage increase through expertise should be higher than the amount of damage reduction and increased healing one gets. If it stays like that, the stat will not scale properly and the state of healing will become even more problematic with increased stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shlamorel Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 A defending healer gets double benefit from expertise through reduced damage and increased healing, while attackers gets only an increase in damage for the same amount. Damage dealers also get reduced incoming damage, so they, too, get dual benefit from expertise. I'm kinda confused and thinking that maybe I don't understand your post. Healing is already reduced in combat in warzones by 30% as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vosae Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Simlpe solution: remove expertise from the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrasment Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Expertise give to all player a better way to make PvP, u can be an healer a tank or a dps u will need expertise. Im rly sad to see lot of ppl that jump in wz with pve gear and 200 expertise, get roflstomped by full champion and after whine. If u wanna make PvP, wear that damned pvp gear >_>" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greennunu Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Healing is already reduced in combat in warzones by 30% as well. Pretty much my thought, the trauma debuff makes healing hard to start with, expertise is suppose to slowly reduce this, even at 650 expertise you are still suffering from 18% healing decrease. Healers while hard to kill they are not impossible to control while you kill their teammates, burst control by lining up your burst helps greatly. But if you are just playing in pugs against a premade, well that's a whole different set of problem. If you are not playing and competitively planning, then you have no room to complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetou Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 The damage increase and the damage reduction given by Expertise effectively balance each other out (assuming both sides are roughly evenly geared.) However, Healers get a 10-15% bonus to their healing which means that rather than there being a 30% debuff to healing in 50-bracket WZs there is only a 15-20% debuff. /IF/ the 30% debuff is the correct balance then Expertise boosting healing throws that out of sync. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor_Troll Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Lately, there have been a lot of posts about the state of healers in pvp. In the right hands, good healers are basically unkillable. As a shadow tank, coupled with a good healer, I have been able to defend single points versus opposite teams of 4-5 players. On many occasion, I have spotted groups of 3 healers + 1 tank able to heal themselves against a team of 7-8 players. A very simple look at the expertise stat is enough to see why this problem is becoming more important: A defending healer gets double benefit from expertise through reduced damage and increased healing, while attackers gets only an increase in damage for the same amount. The fix is simple : damage increase through expertise should be higher than the amount of damage reduction and increased healing one gets. If it stays like that, the stat will not scale properly and the state of healing will become even more problematic with increased stats. can you provide me with the unkillable healer spec so i can take on 2-3 opponents and not die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noebert Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 can you provide me with the unkillable healer spec so i can take on 2-3 opponents and not die? It's called grab a tank friend and have him put guard on you. It's something most of these people don't understand happens in pvp for healers they know can keep both of them alive while they heal everything else around them as well. It's just one of those real reasons that it can be difficult to kill a sorc in pvp by those who don't understand the mechanics of this game and only see a result, not the cause of what they are complaining about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenTharqua Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Damage dealers also get reduced incoming damage, so they, too, get dual benefit from expertise. I'm kinda confused and thinking that maybe I don't understand your post. Healing is already reduced in combat in warzones by 30% as well. Yes but damage dealers do no need damage reduction to kill someone. The problem is simple math really. Lets say that a fresh lvl 50 dps with 0 expertise fight again an opposite target with 0 expertise while, at the same time, an opposite fresh healer with 0 expertise heals the same target : The healer heals the target for 10000 while at the same time the dps does 10000 damage to the target resulting in a stalemate. Take the same players with 650 expertise : The dps player will deal 12.08 % more damage to the target for a total of 11208. The target will see this incoming damage reduced by 12.08% and will take 9854 damage. At the same time the healer will heal the target for 12.08% more health : 11208. The result is simple damage and heals do not scale properly with expertise because survivability gains double benefit. Edited February 25, 2012 by XenTharqua Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polimeris Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Keep in mind that damage scales better with power than healing too. Overall, it's quite balanced (even if the commando/mercenary bubble is a big "I don't die" during 12 seconds) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamuro Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) So if i as a healer always have my pocket tank close to me ... i can kill 4-5 people? Oh wait no ... i can probably survive ... a long time ... not indefinitly, simply because this kind of pressure doesnt allow a rotation that maintians your force ... so yeah ... i ll stand there for about 2 minutes and heal nonstop myself and probably if the enemies are so stupid, the tank too. Great ... but uhm i don't do any damage ... the tank does laughable damage ... and hmm well yeah no contribution to any of the goals of the warzone. (and in hutball, where this could be an issue ... it's so easy to just knock one off and seperate the two) So your point is that healers benefit from 2 of the 3 expertise boni like everyone else? Sure nerf healers!!! Just lol Edited February 25, 2012 by Jamuro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ergecrs Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Yes but damage dealers do no need damage reduction to kill someone. The problem is simple math really. Lets say that a fresh lvl 50 dps with 0 expertise fight again an opposite target with 0 expertise while, at the same time, an opposite fresh healer with 0 expertise heals the same target : The healer heals the target for 10000 while at the same time the dps does 10000 damage to the target resulting in a stalemate. Take the same players with 650 expertise : The dps player will deal 12.08 % more damage to the target for a total of 11208. The target will see this incoming damage reduced by 12.08% and will take 9854 damage. At the same time the healer will heal the target for 12.08% more health : 11208. The result is simple damage and heals do not scale properly with expertise because survivability gains double benefit. Why on earth would the person be fighting one vs two against a healer and some one else and expect to win anything ? Why on earth is he not attacking the healer first like he should be ? Why on earth is he not stunning and interupting the heals ? I play a healer ! 90% of the time I am targeted first meaning I have to heal my self. Against good groups this is magnified by the fact I am stunned then interupted then stunned again before I have a chance to get off a single heal. Healing is nothing like you are saying it is. And before you go there yes I have 600 expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenTharqua Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 So if i as a healer always have my pocket tank close to me ... i can kill 4-5 people? Oh wait no ... i can probably survive ... a long time ... not indefinitly, simply because this kind of pressure doesnt allow a rotation that maintians your force ... so yeah ... i ll stand there for about 2 minutes and heal nonstop myself and probably if the enemies are so stupid, the tank too. Great ... but uhm i don't do any damage ... the tank does laughable damage ... and hmm well yeah no contribution to any of the goals of the warzone. (and in hutball, where this could be an issue ... it's so easy to just knock one off and seperate the two) So your point is that healers benefit from 2 of the 3 expertise boni like everyone else? Sure nerf healers!!! Just lol Sigh .... Did I ever say nerf healers in my post? A tank and a healer are not supposed to do damage, there role is to survive and heal. Damage dealers are supposed to kill the tanks and healers and I just pointed out that survivability does not scale the same as damage with expertise. This is not a nerf post. If you dont understand simple math, please dont post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenTharqua Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 Why on earth would the person be fighting one vs two against a healer and some one else and expect to win anything ? Why on earth is he not attacking the healer first like he should be ? Why on earth is he not stunning and interupting the heals ? I play a healer ! 90% of the time I am targeted first meaning I have to heal my self. Against good groups this is magnified by the fact I am stunned then interupted then stunned again before I have a chance to get off a single heal. Healing is nothing like you are saying it is. And before you go there yes I have 600 expertise. This is just an example. Take a complete battleground with both equal teams and same composition. Lets say the teams have all 0 expertise and that during the game total damage done is 1000000 and total healing done is 1000000. With 650 expertise, the increased damage done will be negated by the reduced taken damage and will stay at 1000000. On the other hand, healing done will be increased by 12.08%. Result : damage done does not scale properly with healing done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAvole Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Make expertise affect the trauma debuff of the target you attack. 10% expertise = 30%+10% = 40% heal reduce on that target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceperson Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 It's called grab a tank friend and have him put guard on you. It's something most of these people don't understand happens in pvp for healers they know can keep both of them alive while they heal everything else around them as well. It's just one of those real reasons that it can be difficult to kill a sorc in pvp by those who don't understand the mechanics of this game and only see a result, not the cause of what they are complaining about. test: if you run into a tank/healer combo who do you kill first? i'm sorry, i don't understand the point of this thread. good players should beat bad ones... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ergecrs Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 This is just an example. Take a complete battleground with both equal teams and same composition. Lets say the teams have all 0 expertise and that during the game total damage done is 1000000 and total healing done is 1000000. With 650 expertise, the increased damage done will be negated by the reduced taken damage and will stay at 1000000. On the other hand, healing done will be increased by 12.08%. Result : damage done does not scale properly with healing done. So in your perfect world in the warzones you are doing the total number of heals is greater than the total amount of dps done by all the players ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoeKG Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I think the healers in TOR are just right. 1 DPS shouldn't be able to just kill a healer, and if other teams aren't smart enough to kill healers, they should pay for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSkate Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Yes but damage dealers do no need damage reduction to kill someone. The problem is simple math really. Lets say that a fresh lvl 50 dps with 0 expertise fight again an opposite target with 0 expertise while, at the same time, an opposite fresh healer with 0 expertise heals the same target : The healer heals the target for 10000 while at the same time the dps does 10000 damage to the target resulting in a stalemate. Take the same players with 650 expertise : The dps player will deal 12.08 % more damage to the target for a total of 11208. The target will see this incoming damage reduced by 12.08% and will take 9854 damage. At the same time the healer will heal the target for 12.08% more health : 11208. The result is simple damage and heals do not scale properly with expertise because survivability gains double benefit. Result : damage done does not scale properly with healing done. You are forgetting the 30% healing debuff that already exists. Actually those healers that would normally heal for 10000 now heal for 7846 with their 12.08% expertise boost. So actually healers are still at a 21.5% healing loss over their normal healing ability. Edited February 25, 2012 by TheSkate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielHex Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Simlpe solution: remove expertise from the game. Simple solution: We kill the Batman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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