Bioware: Games are more than games.

[Doghealer]

This post contains possible spoilers: you have been warned.

 

I've recently run into a introspective moment for myself...and it was caused entirely by Bioware's latest work of art: SWTOR.

 

Perhaps "entirely" isn't the best word. I've heard of such a thing happen before on a web show called Extra Credits, a show devoted to critical analysis of video games as a whole. One particular episode spoke of a similar occurrence that happened with the show's writer during Mass Effect 2 (Also conveniently made by Bioware; you guys rock). In their words, "A video game asked him a question he couldn't answer." And no, it's not a stupid "test-like" question like "What is the capital of Massachusetts?", it was a question of "Here's the situation, what do you do?" It's kind of a spoiler alert, and I'd rather not quote the entire episode, so if you want to watch it, I've already given you the link.

 

Back to my point, I recently hit a similar point in this very game.

On Balmorra, there's a Republic mission to rescue a pair of professor-doctors that designed a super-weapon against their will for the Empire. After rescuing them from their hellish prison, they mention that with their confiscated notes, they could easily shut the weapon down. However, they're locked away in the computer's "safe"; it would take a "you can only do this once" override to access them. The same override could also be used to shut down the prison entirely, setting free the approximate thousand Republic citizens it holds captive.

 

I was given a choice: Set the prisoners free and gain light side points, or take the weapon's notes and gain dark side points.

 

Because I'm hoarding light side points on my current character, I thought about it only briefly, then chose to set the prisoners free. Then one of the doctors stated "You may have just single-handedly doomed the Republic".

 

 

I thought about this.

 

What in the world have I done...?

 

My mind became locked in a state of conflict. Heck, it still is in that state. I began to question my morals. I began to question what it meant to be good and what it meant to be evil.

 

I thought.

 

And I thought some more.

 

"You are now away from keyboard."

 

I didn't notice. I still thought.

 

A mob came and attacked me. Almost on autopilot, I killed it, then fast-traveled back to a place where I wouldn't be bothered by mobs any more.

 

Then I thought.

 

And I thought.

 

Then I posted this.

 

And I'm still thinking.

 

TL;DR: Bioware...I love you.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Parali
spoiler tags

[badseed]

many people just space bar through these missions and care little about them, which is a shame . this is a BW game first , and the main reason i play it . i decided to go dark side on my mercinary..then i got Blizz as a companion. i just couldn't bring myself to do dark side stuff if it pissed him off ..cause he's my friend !

[Zag_Stratos]

/uninstall now

 

A game should always remain a game.

 

If you really need to go at it. You destroyed weapons that would have killed innocent people include such as kids. The fact that you're torn apart about that is quite scary. It means that potentially, you would be willing to sacrifice innocent lives just to win.

 

 

Now think about it.

 

 

 

Of course, if you're just playing it for the intrigue of the storyline, BW did a good job at forcing you to make though calls.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Zag_Stratos

[Loupe]

Light / Dark point are ultimately irrelevant because they are not hard set. You can erase them as you reach the maximum. Or at least you are supposed to be able to erase them as you reach the maximum. My Sorc is 9750 Dark 250 Light and I am still waiting for that fix to come in.

[Tirfin]

I love the reference to Extra Credits. What a great show.

 

I also appreciate that you bring up the major draw of story in games, even an MMO, to have impact upon the player. I just dinged 50 this weekend and I can tell you that much of the game has given me pause for thought. My Jedi Consular is a good guy with a capital G, he will always save the lives of those, even those in the Empire, if he is able, in an attempt to find a peaceful accord.

 

The two major ideas that I have been wondering about recently, brought about by Bioware are:

 

Here I am running around randomly killing Mobs for XP. I actually jump into fights. How is that right? How is that the Jedi Way? How is that good? And now I find myself trying to actively avoid fighting and only attacking when attacked during general questing.

 

The second has SPOILERS!!!!!!

 

 

At the very end of my class quest one of Children of the Emperor (may have been the first son, I don't remember), suggested I was a failure. I was chastised for every one of the fallen Children I killed and asked how I can consider myself good having cut down these former heroes of the republic. I brushed it aside, after all, I had an evil entity that had possessed a Jedi Grand Master to deal with.

 

But then I let the Grand Master live, I allowed him to fight the demon inside him and had to ask myself, "Did I do all that I could for those others?" Of course, I try to say, I did all the game would let me. But I only chose one dialogue option, what about the others? How many souls did I cut down to get to the First Son? And I realize that my Hero may not be the white knight he claims to be...

 

 

So yes, thank you Bioware for an interesting, engaging, and though provoking experience.

[Cerion]

/uninstall now

 

A game should always remain a game.

 

If you really need to go at it. You destroyed weapons that would have killed innocent people include such as kids. The fact that you're torn apart about that is quite scary. It means that potentially, you would be willing to sacrifice innocent lives just to win.

 

 

Now think about it.

 

 

 

Of course, if you're just playing it for the intrigue of the storyline, BW did a good job at forcing you to make though calls.

 

what a short-sighted comment this is. The OP is having a very human reaction to a well-told story. Perhaps if you hadn't slept through High School English class you might have read a book or two that had the same profound effect?

 

Good stories and good story-tellers can have a profound effect on us. I empathize with the OP. I have had similar moments in SWTOR (and other BW games, by the way, which is why I love this company).

 

I think the OP shows us he/she is very much human. It's the people who feel nothing, whether watching a film, reading a book, or whatever, that are really the scary members of society. They lack empathy, and that is bad.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Cerion

[Cerion]

Light / Dark point are ultimately irrelevant because they are not hard set. You can erase them as you reach the maximum. Or at least you are supposed to be able to erase them as you reach the maximum. My Sorc is 9750 Dark 250 Light and I am still waiting for that fix to come in.

 

 

wow, you SO missed the point of the OPs post, haha.

[Terko_Koslah]

I was gonna post this.

You have to learn to pick up a book before you can learn how to read.

 

But it's more like:

You learn to pick up a book before you learn to read.

[Loupe]

wow, you SO missed the point of the OPs post, haha.

 

No just dubbed it irrelevant. Choose whatever your first impulse is and move on.

[Bazouk]

what a short-sighted comment this is. The OP is having a very human reaction to a well-told story. Perhaps if you hadn't slept through High School English class you might have read a book or two that had the same profound effect?

 

Good stories and good story-tellers can have a profound effect on us. I empathize with the OP. I have had similar moments in SWTOR (and other BW games, by the way, which is why I love this company).

 

I think the OP shows us he/she is very much human. It's the people who feel nothing, whether watching a film, reading a book, or whatever, that are really the scary members of society. They lack empathy, and that is bad.

 

 

I think they did an absolutely fantastic job with the story. I think the voice acting is spectacular (could be because they dished out ****loads of money to famous people), and i definitely had some moments that made me stop and think.

 

that lasted a week and a half, and now there is nothing.

[Cerion]

I think they did an absolutely fantastic job with the story. I think the voice acting is spectacular (could be because they dished out ****loads of money to famous people), and i definitely had some moments that made me stop and think.

 

that lasted a week and a half, and now there is nothing.

 

Well, I'm sorry you only made it to level 15. Perhaps try a different class or faction? Take your character to a higher level this time? The other side has pretty good stories I hear...but I'm not quite there yet. After two months I'm only 46lvl on my Jedi. Prolly take me another 2 to 3 months to level up an Empire character. Not to mention each class has a story to tell, so that's a lot of time I've got a head of me.

[xxdragonragexx]

To answer the OP. I haven't seen that quest btw but....

 

It is obviously a reference to the death star. You chose to free people and save the lives that you can see in the present. In doing so, you just gave away the only opportunity you have to save tremendous amounts of lives in the future.

[Tirfin]

/uninstall now

 

A game should always remain a game.

 

If you really need to go at it. You destroyed weapons that would have killed innocent people include such as kids. The fact that you're torn apart about that is quite scary. It means that potentially, you would be willing to sacrifice innocent lives just to win.

 

 

Now think about it.

 

 

 

Of course, if you're just playing it for the intrigue of the storyline, BW did a good job at forcing you to make though calls.

 

Why? Why should a game not have good story? This sounds like the argument from extremists that books should not have fiction stories, let alone any that are engaging. Granted I would guess that you mean that a game should not sacrifice gameplay for story, but whatever the POV, it is a dangerous slope to say that a game can't be anything more than a game.

 

As far as his moral question, I think that there is more of a dilemma than you are willing to admit. Yea, you destroy a weapon that could kill innocent people, including kids, but how many innocent people, including kids are imprisoned and likely to die under the empire's incarceration?

 

Or here's one, the Republic has a massive weapon that can turn the tides overnight, ending the war, but in the process countless innocent lives will be loss with the use of the weapon. Do you use the weapon, sacrificing innocents to save those that may someday be killed by an extended war, or destroy the weapon, saving the innocent, but risking those that will later die because the Empire continues to attack? (And yes, this is a reference to WWII).

 

Needless to say, moral questions are rarely as easy as you make them out to be, and they are almost never black and white.

[Bazouk]

Well, I'm sorry you only made it to level 15. Perhaps try a different class or faction? Take your character to a higher level this time? The other side has pretty good stories I hear...but I'm not quite there yet. After two months I'm only 46lvl on my Jedi. Prolly take me another 2 to 3 months to level up an Empire character. Not to mention each class has a story to tell, so that's a lot of time I've got a head of me.

 

i have 3 50's.

 

it doesn't take 3 months to level a toon. it takes 3 to 5 days, depending on how good the coffee is.

[Tirfin]

No just dubbed it irrelevant. Choose whatever your first impulse is and move on.

 

I'm curious, are you dubbing light/dark side points irrelevant or the value of engaging story and moral questions in video games as irrelevant?

 

If it's the latter, I disagree, but fine.

 

If it is the former, then yea, you totally missed the OP's point.

[Cerion]

i have 3 50's.

 

it doesn't take 3 months to level a toon. it takes 3 to 5 days, depending on how good the coffee is.

 

It takes 3 months if you have a job and a life outside of an MMO.

 

The fact that one eats through content in such a short time isn't the fault of the game (other than the fact that it was obviously really entertaining for one to devote so much intense time to it). That's a problem with the user. Period.

[Paganini]

 

I was given a choice: Set the prisoners free and gain light side points, or take the weapon's notes and gain dark side points.

 

Because I'm hoarding light side points on my current character, I thought about it only briefly, then chose to set the prisoners free.

 

 

 

And therein lies the problem.

[MoogleNut]

I came across a similar dilema to the OP in the Imperial Agent story...

 

 

At the end of act 1, when facing Darth Jadus, you have to choose between disabling the super-weapons, leading to (I assume) an immediate fight in which your chances of survival are slim (story not gameplay obviosuly there), or activating the weapons, thereby murdering thousands of people, but enabling back-up to arrive and a greater chance of taking in the bad-guy and in the long-run saving millions if not billions more.

 

 

THAT was a tough choice, it took me a good while to make the decision, and felt truly horrible when I did eventually click on the option. What made it worse was

that the panicked cries for help from all the people YOU YOURSELF killed by choosing the 'greater good' option wwere played over the loudspeakers while you went about sabotaging the ship so the cavalry could arrive.

 

 

It's story points like this that set Bioware above many other developers in my opinon. As much as I love satisying/challenging combat in games, it's the stories that ultimately pull me in. Hopefully when we start getting expansions, story and decisions like that will continue to challenge on an emotional level and not just a technical/tactical one.

 

Edited because the spoiler tags went wonky - sorry:o

Edited February 22, 2012 by MoogleNut
spoiler tags

[Yfelsung]

It takes 3 months if you have a job and a life outside of an MMO.

 

The fact that one eats through content in such a short time isn't the fault of the game (other than the fact that it was obviously really entertaining for one to devote so much intense time to it). That's a problem with the user. Period.

 

I have a job and a real life outside of MMOs and I have a 50 and several alts ranging from 15 to 40ish.

 

It takes almost no time to hit max level in this game.

[Bammur]

Light / Dark point are ultimately irrelevant because they are not hard set. You can erase them as you reach the maximum. Or at least you are supposed to be able to erase them as you reach the maximum. My Sorc is 9750 Dark 250 Light and I am still waiting for that fix to come in.

 

I think this is fixed. Last week my SW went from 27.5 light/10,000 dark (.5 was the remainder from a failed diplomacy mission) to 0/10,000.

[Doghealer]

Wow.

 

I think you guys just restored my faith in humanity, even if only a little. (Sure as heck beats none.)

 

I was half expecting to be laughed at and shunned for the concept of taking a game so close to heart. Yet the majority of you seem to agree with me.

 

You guys rock. You guys at Bioware rock even more. Story in an MMO can exist, and you guys have done it right.

[Vecke]

/uninstall now

 

A game should always remain a game.

 

If you really need to go at it. You destroyed weapons that would have killed innocent people include such as kids. The fact that you're torn apart about that is quite scary. It means that potentially, you would be willing to sacrifice innocent lives just to win.

 

 

Now think about it.

 

 

 

Of course, if you're just playing it for the intrigue of the storyline, BW did a good job at forcing you to make though calls.

 

Speaking as someone that makes a living as a writer, I really hope this attitude doesn't become the normal attitude, because - if it does - I won't be able to make a living as a writer any more.

 

If a story moves you emotionally, it's doing it right. He should uninstall if he never has this reaction, because it means (for him) a story based game failed to tell a good story.

[Master-Nala]

I think the best example of what the OP is talking about comes in two quests pretty early on:

 

 

First on Ord Mantell, you have a quest to recover medical supplies for the base, but you find out they were stolen by refugees who need them as well. It's really hard to choose in that instance because both are completely legitimate choices. I wish they would take the LS/DS points off the choice though.

 

Likewise on Taris when you can choose to let the Republic soldiers go AWOL or force them back to their duties.

 

[SushaBrancaleone]

to OP.

 

Im sorry i compeltely disagree. In swtor quests completely have no meaning. The fact that the quest giver narrates what you have to do makes no difference whatsover. U still have to trash so many mobs or click so many objects. Moreover, any independent process of thaught is completely annihilated by the quest helper.

 

I remember a time when u had to actually read the friggin quest and figure out what u had to do. Ofc it implied klling x mobs or collect yy bjects.. but it alteast required the palyer to decifer and interract. Introducing a quest helper on launch in a theme park game is just.... the opposite of brain stimulating tbh.

 

Moreover: the dualization of situationsin just 2 possible outcomes, is not a bioware idea and i remember it as far as "book games" but may probably be tracked further down. besides, they are quite simplistic of life and if you do find yourself considering your moral approach to the world in a True or False mode... well depending on how many do, we are in trouble.

 

The fact that a stone or tree or a mountain (or any inanimate object) has isnpired or provoked a thaught/relfection in you, DOES NOT mean that the stone or tree is neither sentient, nor that it intend to invoke such a reaction. It is you who have observed your environment and made conclusion..

 

WHile I do agree that most movies and books have an intellectual scope, and star wars certainly did in the eyes of lucas, I doubt that the kid who wrote that quest was looking to inspire his "clients" to philosophical reflection with VERY diluted mythology stile morals, which is what quests usually have.. nothing more.

[Coiffio]

what a short-sighted comment this is. The OP is having a very human reaction to a well-told story. Perhaps if you hadn't slept through High School English class you might have read a book or two that had the same profound effect?

 

Good stories and good story-tellers can have a profound effect on us. I empathize with the OP. I have had similar moments in SWTOR (and other BW games, by the way, which is why I love this company).

 

I think the OP shows us he/she is very much human. It's the people who feel nothing, whether watching a film, reading a book, or whatever, that are really the scary members of society. They lack empathy, and that is bad.

 

Or they see things for what they are, a story meant to entertain. There's nothing in that quest that is "profound". it would have more of an impact if you got to see the ramifications of your actions. However it's an mmo, with very confined parameters, so all you get is an upset npc, that's it. Your actions have no far reaching impact so it's not monstrous of a person who simply can't relate to choices which ultimately do not matter in the game. It's wholly different from a decent book or movie where you see the character deal with the choices they make. In this game, all you do is forgotten by the time you run to the next npc.