Vydor_HC Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 What do you do with those commendations? Buy mods for your companions? Not trying to be mean, but help me understand here because I don't get your logic. Are you talking about lvl 50? Also, are you 100% ok if someone rolls need on rakata item and they win it for their companion over you getting it? I don't even.... Yup, my planet dailies. Right now that gets a lot of my attention. And yes, I'd have no problem if someone rolled higher than me on an item. It's not that big of a deal to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 No matter which way people try to spin it, need rolling for a companion without asking if your group minds is a grade A dirtbag thing to do and the people that do it know it as well. Please spare us the "my companion is a part of my character" or "the game lets me do it" excuses. You are all greedy and selfish. Some of you probably don't care what people think of you but keep in mind that regardless of the fact that this is an MMO and your anonymity will remain intact, the way you treat others in game in essence mirrors your real life personality and the way you treat and respect your peers. Say what you will to claim otherwise, but people who are generally respectful, kind and generous in the real world apply their philosophy wherever they go and in whatever they are doing. Even in games where nobody knows who they are. Way to rash generalize and insult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 No matter which way people try to spin it, need rolling for a companion without asking if your group minds is a grade A dirtbag thing to do and the people that do it know it as well. Please spare us the "my companion is a part of my character" or "the game lets me do it" excuses. You are all greedy and selfish. Some of you probably don't care what people think of you but keep in mind that regardless of the fact that this is an MMO and your anonymity will remain intact, the way you treat others in game in essence mirrors your real life personality and the way you treat and respect your peers. Say what you will to claim otherwise, but people who are generally respectful, kind and generous in the real world apply their philosophy wherever they go and in whatever they are doing. Even in games where nobody knows who they are. Yeah, I think everyone is in agreement that you need to discuss this before you start adventuring. Once rules are laid down about looting and you break them, you deserve any punishment the group deems necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I said "intend". So again, you can argue your "But, but, but they may have just recently changed their mind!" way of thinking all you want. The fact is, the lead systems designer now intends that the loot system work the way our sides currently plays (ie, only being able to need on your primary class items). If he did not intend it to work this way in the future, he would have said "working as intended", instead of "I'll work on fixing it". So, people with your stance (which is pointless as you already admitted to cancelling) are not currently looting the way Bioware wants the loot system to work. So, keep exploiting the broken system while you still can. By your logic he should have said "Not working as intended". He didn't say that, so it must be working as intended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 No, I don't see why you think this is true. I've asked several people but they can't seem to come up with a reason other than "I said so, ok!" The reason is that MOST people in MMOs with NBG only need roll for their PC. WOW has the same problem with people needing for offspec over someone in the group that could have used it for mainspec. If there is a consensus, even if you disagree with it, you should be respectful and at least let your intention known before the looting begins. If you don't, you'll end up winning an item for you companion that someone else needed for their PC and cause an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 By your logic he should have said "Not working as intended". He didn't say that, so it must be working as intended? No, he wouldn't have proposed a change if that were the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darne Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Every day that I play. More often that I don't use them. Tharan lets me solo the daily heroic 2's (although the one on illum is really kind of painful). I've got both; having one doesn't preclude having the other. the last single palyer RPG I played was.... hmmm... Probably Ultima VII: Serpent isle. I like MMO's ... but there's nothing wrong with liking to solo. So let get this right.... You need on items for your companions, so in turn you can go do your daily heroics, to get more commendations, to get more items for your companion? You realize that's exactly what other people are trying to do for their character? We might as well just watch our companions play then. Why bother having a character to begin with? This is so over my head, I don't even understand where people thinking like that come from. Like I said, it's fine to want to solo, and while one thing might not preclude the other, it certainly slows it down a lot. If your healer was losing every roll to people like you, it would take a lot longer for him to get his gear. Or your tank. Or you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 No, he wouldn't have proposed a change if that were the case. So, it's not, not working as intended ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabenschwinge Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Show me one example of a developer addition to a game that suddenly matured its entire subscriber base into adulthood and rationality and then we can talk. The maturity of the player base is not the problem. The problem is that the situation is not entirely clear. Some people simply click "need" for items they need and "greed" or "pass" for items they don't. Chance decideds. Others expect a complex code of conduct on top of that to be followed and will only accept a vote for "need" if they can verify the demand personally. Neither stance is as such immature, but it is incompatible. The code decides rather than chance. The solutions to make the items in question either not usable by companions (by adding an explicite class restriction) or make an additional button to qualify the kind of "need" you have would therefore indeed solve the problem. Edited February 22, 2012 by Rabenschwinge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiborF Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I agree with you wholeheartedly. But sometimes people forget to establish the rules. We're only human, after all. My question to you is, if everyone forgot to establish the rules beforehand (I agree, a dumb move), do you think it's perfectly fine for the smuggler to roll need in my specific example? I'm not asking if it's allowed. I'm saying, purely from a respect and etiquette perspective, do you think there's absolutely nothing wrong with rolling need on that lightsaber if you KNOW for an absolute fact that the jedi needs it for a direct upgrade. Personally? I don't take exception to it because I don't know if in his mind he's intentionally trying to be greedy, is simply apathetic to the needs of strangers whom he may or may not every group with again, or is simply of the belief that "I was there for the kill so it's fair that I roll." I don't pretend to know a stranger's mind and hence try to be far less judgmental of their actions until I do. My own typical rule in a PuG (for me) is if I win something that's an upgrade for me, I tend to pass on future drops until the rest of the group has also won an upgrade. With credits pretty much raining down on you in this game, winning an extra couple of pieces in the run via Greed rolls just isn't that important to me. I generally don't enforce that sort of rule in the beginning of a run, that's simply how I choose to roll. I also ask in the beginning, "What's the group's consensus on rolling for companion/mod gear?" And I ask it open-ended like that without stating my opinion because I honestly don't care. I'm just as comfortable rolling Greed for something for my companion as I am with everyone basically needing on anything that drops. See to me, the actual loot in and of itself means very little to me. They're colored pixels in a game. And I know where the particular combination of colored pixels can be found so if I don't happen to get an item today, I can return another time and try again. BUT, what does mean something to me is the rest of the group having a laid back, drama-free, fun run. And somebody going ballistic on someone else in the group over such a petty thing, to me, is simply the rude and jerk~ish behavior when a civil, short conversation at the beginning alleviates the problem in call cases except where a group member agreed to your loot rule and then rolled counter to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vecke Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I think you should only roll need for your companion when you think greed is a need, but in cases where greed doesn't negate the need, you should roll greed for your PC because rolling need for a companion when a PC should need instead of greed equates to rolling greed for an off-spec character that rolled greed in a clearly established greed before need group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Well, to me (Dunno about you, but you and others, I encourage you to share your opinion on this), the fact that a player is more useful to the group means he did more to drop the boss, and therefore "deserves" more loot.I did more damage to the boss than Bob. Does that mean that I deserve the loot more? Personally, I say no; I'm in favor of both Bob and I being equal and having the same priority. See the picture yet?No, actually, I don't. And yes, that helps you, but I still feel it helps the agent more.I don't see this argument as any different than: Alice and Carol are both agents. The drop is a +20 cunning upgrade for alice, and a +20 upgrade + 1 crit for carol. Sorry Alice, you don't get to roll, because it helps Carol more. Personally I don't this as relevant... they were both present, both have something they'll use it for, both should be able to roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saurakk Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 No, I don't see why you think this is true. I've asked several people but they can't seem to come up with a reason other than "I said so, ok!" That is some serious dissembling there. People have given you many reasons why they think that is true. You do not agree with the reasons, but do not state no one has provided any. And no, I am not taking the time to find the many valid reasons for the opposing viewpoint. Not agreeing != not providing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 The maturity of the player base is not the problem. The problem is that the situation is not entirely clear. Some people simply click "need" for items they need and "greed" or "pass" for items they don't. Others expect a complex code of conduct on top of that to be followed and will only accept a vote for "need" if they can verify the demand personally. Neither stance is as such immature, but it is incompatible. The solutions to make the items in question either not usable by companions (by adding an explicite class restriction) or make an additional button to qualify the kind of "need" you have would therefore indeed solve the problem. That goes back to what I said earlier. The problem is not the system, it's the players not communicating, which is what they should be doing. No changes to the game need to be made on this issue, players just need to talk about what they are going to do when something drops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 So let get this right.... You need on items for your companions, so in turn you can go do your daily heroics, to get more commendations, to get more items for your companion? You realize that's exactly what other people are trying to do for their character? We might as well just watch our companions play then. Why bother having a character to begin with? This is so over my head, I don't even understand where people thinking like that come from. Like I said, it's fine to want to solo, and while one thing might not preclude the other, it certainly slows it down a lot. If your healer was losing every roll to people like you, it would take a lot longer for him to get his gear. Or your tank. Or you. Common courtesy seems to be lost on some people when interacting with people over the internet (at least I hope it's only over the internet). I mean, if you walk through a door at a store and someone is close behind you, do you hold it open and let them in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 The solutions to make the items in question either not usable by companions (by adding an explicite class restriction) or make an additional button to qualify the kind of "need" you have would therefore indeed solve the problem.or tell people that they're being silly and they should stop getting bent out of shape about it; that's also an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I think you should only roll need for your companion when you think greed is a need, but in cases where greed doesn't negate the need, you should roll greed for your PC because rolling need for a companion when a PC should need instead of greed equates to rolling greed for an off-spec character that rolled greed in a clearly established greed before need group. Even I'm having problems with that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 So, it's not, not working as intended ? No, it's not NOT, not working as intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungpowSalmon Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Way to rash generalize and insult. Murderers are criminals. They are all disturbed and evil. Want me to keep going or... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vecke Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Personally? I don't take exception to it because I don't know if in his mind he's intentionally trying to be greedy, is simply apathetic to the needs of strangers whom he may or may not every group with again, or is simply of the belief that "I was there for the kill so it's fair that I roll." I don't pretend to know a stranger's mind and hence try to be far less judgmental of their actions until I do. My own typical rule in a PuG (for me) is if I win something that's an upgrade for me, I tend to pass on future drops until the rest of the group has also won an upgrade. With credits pretty much raining down on you in this game, winning an extra couple of pieces in the run via Greed rolls just isn't that important to me. I generally don't enforce that sort of rule in the beginning of a run, that's simply how I choose to roll. I also ask in the beginning, "What's the group's consensus on rolling for companion/mod gear?" And I ask it open-ended like that without stating my opinion because I honestly don't care. I'm just as comfortable rolling Greed for something for my companion as I am with everyone basically needing on anything that drops. See to me, the actual loot in and of itself means very little to me. They're colored pixels in a game. And I know where the particular combination of colored pixels can be found so if I don't happen to get an item today, I can return another time and try again. BUT, what does mean something to me is the rest of the group having a laid back, drama-free, fun run. And somebody going ballistic on someone else in the group over such a petty thing, to me, is simply the rude and jerk~ish behavior when a civil, short conversation at the beginning alleviates the problem in call cases except where a group member agreed to your loot rule and then rolled counter to it. So while you personally wouldn't do it, you don't really have a problem if someone else does. Every single person that is defending the "need" roll said the exact same thing. They personally wouldn't do it, but they wouldn't flip out if someone else did. Honestly, I think this debate is mostly about a philosophical stance that almost never happens in the actual game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 That is some serious dissembling there. People have given you many reasons why they think that is true. No, they've said "that's a jerk move" or that makes you an bhole, or that's a "dbag move" ... they just assert that this is true. And no, I am not taking the time to find the many valid reasons for the opposing viewpoint.Of course you're not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Common courtesy seems to be lost on some people when interacting with people over the internet (at least I hope it's only over the internet). I mean, if you walk through a door at a store and someone is close behind you, do you hold it open and let them in? Why do you always resort to ad-hominen attacks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
souloferdrick Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 No matter which way people try to spin it, need rolling for a companion without asking if your group minds is a grade A dirtbag thing to do and the people that do it know it as well. Please spare us the "my companion is a part of my character" or "the game lets me do it" excuses. You are all greedy and selfish. Ive seen this repeated over and over again for some 300 plus pages now and not a single one of those thousands of posts have ever bothered to explained why? Why? That's not a mistake or something the authors are simply glossing over. There is no way to logically defend yourself with this position without exposing yourselves as complete hypocrites (again, since you are arguing for the same thing; the ability to do what you want with loot) and thus, no reason to be taken seriously at all. Whats stopping you from playing with people who agree with you right now? Nothing. You're not a victim so why pretend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiborF Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 OK, thanks for the clarity. This debate is never ending, in every game I've played since EQ, this has been a topic of discussion and heated arguments. Keep the popcorn handy because I will bet good money that once the devs introduce dual-spec, you're going to see almost the same debate except that instead of it being rolling need or greed for companions/mods it's going to be rolling need or greed for main spec vs. off-spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vecke Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Even I'm having problems with that one I should really stick to my strengths (taking 100 words to make a point I could make in 5 words). Comedy's not really my best talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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