Kajin-Diablo Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 You may have made them waste their CC break, but at the same time you filled their resolve by mind trapping a second time. So essentially you accomplished nothing? i have had a full resolve bar too many times to count from over holding me during combat. But truth is that resolve does little to nothing at the most. even with that resolve up you can still get your dps burst rotation off. Now is bioware decides to fix it. ya sure go ahead and change it up if you want. as for now im sticking with what the op and i said before. People who say they cannot burst down other players with deception are not utilizing all their attacks and cc's as they should. a Rotation is not something that you have to follow or you fail. its a guideline more than anything. yes you have to do 2 Vs before discharge, but we are not saying you cannot do a low slash or electrocute in between the 1st and second one. you have the attacks so use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latrodectus Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Combine this with the illum experience and how hostile it is to a deception assassin and I can very few reasons that my continuing experience in SWTOR could in any way be described as fun. (My buddy, a sorc, another new 50 joined the illum zerg and he completed his daily almost instantly - his healing allows him to tag almost every kill wheras as an assassin I could only tag enemies within 10m.) When you're in Ilum, just stay in stealth near the ops group and spam Mark of Power (your group buff), you get credit for every single player your ops group kills. I know it's boring as hell, but it gets the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delillo Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Thanks for the tip. But when open world PvP is one of the things you sign up for- being reduced to spamming a buff to get credit for the kills of others is really unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sTRaTeGiiZe Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 i have had a full resolve bar too many times to count from over holding me during combat. But truth is that resolve does little to nothing at the most. even with that resolve up you can still get your dps burst rotation off. Now is bioware decides to fix it. ya sure go ahead and change it up if you want. as for now im sticking with what the op and i said before. People who say they cannot burst down other players with deception are not utilizing all their attacks and cc's as they should. a Rotation is not something that you have to follow or you fail. its a guideline more than anything. yes you have to do 2 Vs before discharge, but we are not saying you cannot do a low slash or electrocute in between the 1st and second one. you have the attacks so use them. Did you read either my post or the person I quoted? He mind trapped someone, then that someone used their CC break. He mind trapped a second time(Filling the other player's resolve using a CC that breaks on damage.) and then opened on the other player. I said nothing about not being able to burst someone down with or without full resolve. I was merely pointing out the ineffectiveness of mind trapping a second time rather than simply opening after they CC break. That way you'll be in the same position but you'll be able to CC your opponent if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warstory Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I have 3 points in Electric Execution for that extra internal dmg on my saber charge jolt on 10 second cool down is sweet but i am torn between the 30 second overcharge reduction we can get. great write up tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latrodectus Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) I think what the OP is assuming is that people expressing dislike for deception in pvp are "doing it wrong", but I do not think that is the case. What you have said is not some revelation, most understand all of the points you have and agree with it. Here are some of the issues imho. The power up burst that you are referring it is great, however it requires several things to make it work; reck, relic and procs. Without these you will run into issues dropping people. So we have 90secs between our burst, not ideal, since we really are subpar once reck, relic (and potentially adren) are on cd. Another issue is, our "burst" damage is quite easy to predict and mitigate vs. good players. Since we rely on duplicity and induction procs, we require a ramp up time on the target to build procs before actually bursting. Any good team will see the yoyo saber as soon as our first VS is used and can do quite a few things to counter us. First our 15k burst will probably be 7k since our target will get guarded while we ramp up to burst. Second, KB/Root (snare), or any stun/mez will neuter us. Yes, we can use our defensive cds, like FS offensively (which I found was needed vs. good players/teams to get the kill on healers or the kill target), however its 3secs, and once its down our ability to escape and reset for the next target is severely hindered (or simply escape alive). To me this makes no sense, we are the easiest class to kill, yet we require as much ramp up time on target to do "burst" as say a jugg who has the mitigation to stand there and ramp up charges without dropping to 20% while doing so. You bring up some legitimate concerns, but these problems have various ways around them. For starters, the target you build up your procs on does NOT have to be the target you drop your burst on. You can get some one to half-health, and then when a healer tries to heal them, pop your CD's and jump on the healer. Now there are two people who are at half health and in danger of being focused down. Also, I don't believe we are completely useless when our burst CD's are down, simply making use of AoE taunt as well as your single-target taunt (I can never remember the names of either one of these) is extremely helpful to your team. Once we are out of stealth, we will instantly become the new assist target for the opposing team (if they have a clue), not because of our burst, but because we are the softest class with the least defensive cds that require ramp up time to burst. Seems like a great formula for getting cblocked regularly. Another issue (for me anyway), playing with a team, is that I felt I was not bringing much to the table. Here is an example, lets say we have two teams 4v4 at a resource in a wz each with a healer and 3 dps. I as a assassin, open on the healer assisting one of my dps teammates. In doing so I burn all of my burst cds and potentially FS and FC, so we get the kill. Now I am a sitting duck, so either i sprint away and try and restealth or stand there and hope my healer can keep me up with 3 dps beating on me. Either way I am no longer providing any "real" value to my team. My force regen is now crap since DS and DE are down severely limiting my dps and having tissue paper as armor really puts a strain on my healer and dps teammates who now have to guard, peel for me. Part of your issue is right here. Popping FS and FC offensively to kill some one is something I would only suggest doing in a 1 on 1 scenario. FS and FC are our get out of jail free card, and your success varies greatly on how well you know WHEN to play that card. In the scenario you give above, why do you have to blow all of your CD's if you have three DPS trying to kill one healer? That's more than enough interrupts/CC to get them down. What I don't understand is that you provide the above scenario as a team fight, but you only list your own abilities in the equation against a team of four. Why are you calculating things in a vacuum? Maybe one of your other team mates has a taunt to ease the pressure off of you. Either way, you should pop FS/FC when you get low, and wait till your healer pops you up to about 50%+ health before joining the fight again. So all you have to do is FS/FC, and then wait 2 seconds and pop your AoE taunt, now you're out of the fight for a few seconds, but your taunt is still helping your team. When rated WZs become available (and providing there aren't changes to our class), I highly doubt that any high rated team will take a deception assassin over say a operative for the stealth/burst role (if all other variables are constant, skill/gear/etc between the two players). We are simply subpar in comparison for this role. I really wish deception was more viable for me, but as it stand right now. I feel that we bring much more to the table as a spec that I really had no intention of playing when I rolled this AC, darkness...... Just my $0.02 Well see I don't agree with this, and as I believe I've said, Assassin is a great class, and it pulls its weight in PvP. My only problem with it right now is Deception is noticeably weaker because we bring nothing unique that the other two specs can't bring, other than a bit more burst. Both specs get whirlwind (and madness has the instant cast) as well as mind-trap, and both have access to the taunts. Darkness gets the survivability, as well as the choice to utilize guard, while madness has more survivability, instant cast whirlwind, the ability to do damage even when not at point blank range, and a powerful 3-target AoE damage shot. The fix is, I believe, pretty simple. Make Static Cling cause force slow to add 10% more slowing power per rank (bringing force slow to 70% slow), giving us the most powerful snare in the game. On top of that I think they should remove the durations on Static Charge and the Induction/Voltaic Slash procs, so that we can just pool them and use them when we want to, instead of risk them going away. I would also apply this to recklessness (to keep it balanced the recklessness cooldown wouldn't start until the last charge of reck had been consumed), this way our damage mechanics wouldn't be trumped by roots and stuns/incapacitates. Edited February 24, 2012 by Latrodectus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delillo Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 ...On top of that I think they should remove the durations on Static Charge and the Induction/Voltaic Slash procs, so that we can just pool them and use them when we want to, instead of risk them going away. I would also apply this to recklessness (to keep it balanced the recklessness cooldown wouldn't start until the last charge of reck had been consumed), this way our damage mechanics wouldn't be trumped by roots and stuns/incapacitates. Agree with this. The timers on these abilities don't really make sense. I dont know about removing them completely but they certainly could be longer - which would reward a hit and run playstyle that deception is supposed to be. The shorter timers on this force us to remain in combat and play more like a marauder- something we, defensively, are really not equipped to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elizak Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 just subbing for later read. Really good info here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kninekaji Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 You bring up some legitimate concerns, but these problems have various ways around them. For starters, the target you build up your procs on does NOT have to be the target you drop your burst on. You can get some one to half-health, and then when a healer tries to heal them, pop your CD's and jump on the healer. Now there are two people who are at half health and in danger of being focused down. Also, I don't believe we are completely useless when our burst CD's are down, simply making use of AoE taunt as well as your single-target taunt (I can never remember the names of either one of these) is extremely helpful to your team. Hot swapping targets will cooldowns is nothing new and works great against less experienced players, against seasoned players its not so cut and dry. Seasoned playes will see the swap, call it out on vent and adjust with peels. That is if they arent on you as soon as you pop (which is what I have seen most of the time). Part of your issue is right here. Popping FS and FC offensively to kill some one is something I would only suggest doing in a 1 on 1 scenario. FS and FC are our get out of jail free card, and your success varies greatly on how well you know WHEN to play that card. In the scenario you give above, why do you have to blow all of your CD's if you have three DPS trying to kill one healer? That's more than enough interrupts/CC to get them down. So what you are saying is that you never have to pop defensive cds to get the kill? I don't know what to say to that other than, how are you preventing peels? So you get your kill target to 20% and ready to drop the target, you see two dps coming to support their teammate, how are you preventing any number of cc's that are headed your way? So either you eat the cc and the target lives with the added benefit of being exposed. Or you pop FS, prevent the cc and get the kill. At least this way you dropped one target, either way you are exposed and against any team that has a clue, you will now be eating damage like a fat man at burgerking (which I prefer do do with them being 1 man down). What I don't understand is that you provide the above scenario as a team fight, but you only list your own abilities in the equation against a team of four. Why are you calculating things in a vacuum? Maybe one of your other team mates has a taunt to ease the pressure off of you. Either way, you should pop FS/FC when you get low, and wait till your healer pops you up to about 50%+ health before joining the fight again. So all you have to do is FS/FC, and then wait 2 seconds and pop your AoE taunt, now you're out of the fight for a few seconds, but your taunt is still helping your team. Yes, it was a generalization. I run primarily with a Jugg, dps sorc, heal sorc and myself. Typically we have primary/seconday guard/taunt coverage. Meaning my Jugg will usually take the primary role with guard and I take secondary with taunt (I am not going to cover all the scenarios and swappping). But he will usually start with guard on whatever target the opposing team is on (usually our dps sorc). When I pop to assist, if the opposing team doesn't swap to me, we are golden, as I can open, aoe taunt, build procs then dps (untouched we definately can control the flow of fights, and usually the outcome). However, against people that understand that sitting on a deception assassin, not only stops our dps, but also strains our healer more than than sitting on any other class, we are usually in a up hill fight. If they switch (or should I say when they switch), Jugg swithes guard to me, my taunts are useless since they are on me now. And since my mitigation is crap, not only am I taking lots of damage, but so is our Jugg. So going by your suggestion, I pop FS and FC and wait till my healer picks me back up to join the fight. Does the other team just wait while we do this? Because for us, this is when we push. When a opposing deception assssin pops and is forced to pop defensive cds and go stealth, we are now fighting 3v4 and push hard. If he pops again, its almost always a garunteed kill (no cds to reset and no mitigation), with the hard push when he goes stealth on the secondary target, it usually means they are forced to get back in the fight quickly, so even if we have a kill target is at <50%, we will swap back to the assassin and get the kill the majority of the time. Well see I don't agree with this, and as I believe I've said, Assassin is a great class, and it pulls its weight in PvP. My only problem with it right now is Deception is noticeably weaker because we bring nothing unique that the other two specs can't bring, other than a bit more burst. Both specs get whirlwind (and madness has the instant cast) as well as mind-trap, and both have access to the taunts. Darkness gets the survivability, as well as the choice to utilize guard, while madness has more survivability, instant cast whirlwind, the ability to do damage even when not at point blank range, and a powerful 3-target AoE damage shot. I agree, assassins are a great class and can be viable in PVP, I just don't see this happening as well with deception against teams that understand target priority, cd management and hot swapping compared to other specs. Also, I do not agree that our inability to bring uniqueness to team play being the downfall of the spec. I feel its our inability to do the roll that the decpetion spec is geared towards, stealth burst, glass cannon, we are more of a .22 than a cannon. The fix is, I believe, pretty simple. Make Static Cling cause force slow to add 10% more slowing power per rank (bringing force slow to 70% slow), giving us the most powerful snare in the game. On top of that I think they should remove the durations on Static Charge and the Induction/Voltaic Slash procs, so that we can just pool them and use them when we want to, instead of risk them going away. I would also apply this to recklessness (to keep it balanced the recklessness cooldown wouldn't start until the last charge of reck had been consumed), this way our damage mechanics wouldn't be trumped by roots and stuns/incapacitates. I do not agree with the change to Static Cling, it already is one of the best snares in the game, giving us a almost spammable single target snare. I do agree with the timer durations removal (or at least increasing it to 60 secs) for ind/vs procs. What I would like to see is, reduced cooldown on FS, Fc and deflection, FS duration being 4sec base and a slight increase in base force regen. This will give us better survivability (if cds are used properly) and better dps for longer fights (being out of stealth). Again, I am not saying that assassins are bad, I am saying that imho, deception just has too many holes compared to other specs we currently have. If deception is a glass cannon spec, we should at least be able to drop more burst damage than other classes, but we do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanxscarce Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Ask anyone on my server When i step in the WZ and people see me, guaranteed people on my team are happy. Nicely geared and deception spec'd. I love running up on ANY class just chilling there. Take em down in like 8 seconds, faster with chain shock. Im hoping to hit BM soon, because if I'm doing this good against BM Sorcs and BM Vanguards, I cant wait till I'm on their level. Just know your class We are one of the hardest classes to play, but I promise you, when you get there, you will laugh you *** off and enjoy every second of it. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200MZGMrRkubbtzZf0c.1 Edited February 25, 2012 by Zanxscarce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kninekaji Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Ask anyone on my server When i step in the WZ and people see me, guaranteed people on my team are happy. Nicely geared and deception spec'd. I love running up on ANY class just chilling there. Take em down in like 8 seconds, faster with chain shock. Im hoping to hit BM soon, because if I'm doing this good against BM Sorcs and BM Vanguards, I cant wait till I'm on their level. Just know your class We are one of the hardest classes to play, but I promise you, when you get there, you will laugh you *** off and enjoy every second of it. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200MZGMrRkubbtzZf0c.1 Thanks for the valuable information, I will be sure to ask people on your server. Maybe you can provide some feedback to the scenarios and situations posted above? I am sure that your superb understanding of our class will shed some light on the uninitiated like myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venjinze Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 2/31/8 i can't live without chain shock. 9% armor penetration is a waste of points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baizak Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 2/31/8 i can't live without chain shock. 9% armor penetration is a waste of points. Been thinking of respeccing to a chain shock build. What is the best rotation for the spec you suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xCyberpunkx Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 (edited) I'm going to respec and take up points in Avoidance. It wasn't until PvP that I realized how valuable my Unbreakable Will was. So far, I LOVE Deception spec, and I think I can live without Chain Shock. Never underestimate the power of a Low Slash, Maul, Voltaic Slash, Force Cloak and Assassinate when coming up against an Assassin. This is my build so far. It seems like the Deception tree puts a lot of focus on Shock, and Chain Shock would seem like the appropriate complement, but I'm not sure what I can sacrifice from my Deception tree. Any suggestions? http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200MZhGMRkhrbtzZc.1 Edited February 27, 2012 by xCyberpunkx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 (edited) The issue with Force Shroud isn't knowing when to use it, but rather it only lasts 3 seconds in a pure Deception build which is a world of difference versus 5 seconds in virtually any other build. Force Cloak puts no pressure on the enemy. If a Marauder uses Force Camo, a lot of his damage is dot based so those continue to do damage while he disappeared. An Operative has Hidden Strike or he may potentially run around a corner and heal himself. For an Assassin, you're virtually the same visible versus not in terms of DPS output, and you can't heal yourself. This means the enemy doesn't have to react to you disappearing at all. They just continue attack whoever they were attacking and if you appeared, you're not any more dangerous than you were before you vanished. Vanishing just means your team is down one person until you appeared again with no extra advantage. Even if you hypotehtically ran across a corner and go OOC and then stelath again in the middle of a big fight, the fact that you return to the fight stealthed offers your side no meaningful advantage. The most you could do is heal up while OOC but any class can do exactly the same thing if they managed to run away in mid fight and lose aggro. In the time it takes you to lose combat your team has no contribution from you, but your stealth in no way make up the DPS you lose while you're attempting to get back into stealth. For burst DPS issues, people use their defensive cooldowns when they're low, not because you're attacking them. A powerful CD like Energy Shield or Undying Rage stops all burst DPS so it's not like you can catch someone not using their CD by varying your attack pattern. And if you're dealing with classes without a strong cooldown (say, Sorcs) you might as well attack them first because they're weak on defense. A Marauder is always going to do Undying Rage with about 20% health left if he has it up. You're not going to somehow trick him into not doing that, and you certainly can't power through that. Edited February 27, 2012 by Astarica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xCyberpunkx Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 The issue with Force Shroud isn't knowing when to use it, but rather it only lasts 3 seconds in a pure Deception build which is a world of difference versus 5 seconds in virtually any other build. Force Cloak puts no pressure on the enemy. If a Marauder uses Force Camo, a lot of his damage is dot based so those continue to do damage while he disappeared. An Operative has Hidden Strike or he may potentially run around a corner and heal himself. For an Assassin, you're virtually the same visible versus not in terms of DPS output, and you can't heal yourself. This means the enemy doesn't have to react to you disappearing at all. They just continue attack whoever they were attacking and if you appeared, you're not any more dangerous than you were before you vanished. Vanishing just means your team is down one person until you appeared again with no extra advantage. Even if you hypotehtically ran across a corner and go OOC and then stelath again in the middle of a big fight, the fact that you return to the fight stealthed offers your side no meaningful advantage. The most you could do is heal up while OOC but any class can do exactly the same thing if they managed to run away in mid fight and lose aggro. In the time it takes you to lose combat your team has no contribution from you, but your stealth in no way make up the DPS you lose while you're attempting to get back into stealth. I've found that Force Cloak is quite useful when I'm waiting for my Assassinate to CD. Force Cloak has gotten me out of many sticky situations where we were both reaching low health, but there are no immediate DPS advantages to it, I agree. It needs to be timed just right with a Maul and/or Assassinate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I've found that Force Cloak is quite useful when I'm waiting for my Assassinate to CD. Force Cloak has gotten me out of many sticky situations where we were both reaching low health, but there are no immediate DPS advantages to it, I agree. It needs to be timed just right with a Maul and/or Assassinate. There's obviously always some use for Force Cloak but what you described must be a pretty rare situation since that implies your first Assasinate + burst didn't kill the guy so you're waiting for the Assassinate to refresh again, and most classes can't survive burst + Assassinate. When an Assassin vanishes in fight, the other team should not be worried about that at all and in fact should treat it as if the Assassin just died until he reappaered again since he can't do anything. A Marauder's dots continue to tick, and an Operative is certainly full of surprises from stealth. But an Assassin? A lot of the time I'd see someone vanish and then come out with a Spike and I'm not sure if that's even better than doing nothing since Spike is usually a terrible move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epicopter Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 (edited) As Darkness, when a Deception assassin attacks me I laugh as he tries to tickle me to death while I easily and swiftly dispatch him. It isn't a matter of skill, they just can't do anything. All my guildmates know the minute they see the spinning lightsaber that there is an easy kill awaiting them. I wish Deception was good, I really do, I like the playstyle much more but it just isn't a viable spec, it isn't a matter of "doing it right". Yes, you can end up topping the damage meters, you can pick off bad players here and there but you can do the same damage as darkness, while doing 50k protection, gripping players. aoe slowing other players and defending objectives more easily. Edited February 27, 2012 by Epicopter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts