For an entire warzone? On every hit? For two players in the same warzone and in the same guild that run together all the time? Suspicious for sure.

Here's another coincidence to this "suspicious" anomaly; this same player referred to a critical hit hack in another thread. All respect lost, if it turns out to be something other than a bug.

So my analysis was assumptions, but yours is spot on? I'm sure BW would of liked to handle this "behind closed doors" which is why they ended up closing all the threads opened about it. However, they should of made absolutely sure they were in the right before doing so and calling customers frauds. I made this thread prior to getting a personal apology from BW, and the reason I made it is so that others are aware of what happened, sorry it threatens the game you seem to want to protect.

So gathering more information is a bad thing? Closing the original thread was the worst thing they did as it limited the amount of information they could get on the issue (and also made it appear they were trying to hide soemthing to those involved since we KNEW the event occured as we were there), which probably could of helped the investigation of the issue. You seem to think they did everything they could once they were aware of the issue, but I digress as I actually sent private messages to the GM while he was on line telling us to leave. I used this information when I opened a trouble ticket right after it happened. I then told the CS rep that picked up my trouble ticket the exact time and message that I sent to the GM when he was online. A simple search of my chat log would of proved the event factual. Glad they put so much effort into the matter. There are other factors that played into the way the moderator responded that I will not discuss.

So breaking your own TOS and discussing actions taken against players on a open forum is "responding appropriately"? BW in no way shape or form handled this properly, and anyone with any business sense agrees with this. You never ever slander customers (or partners or whatever) unless you are 110% sure you are correct, unless you enjoy being viewed as incompetent . They continued to investigate the matter because more and more people surfaced with raw images of the occurance, not because they were trying to be thorough or provide some kind of service, it was a reactive response to cover there butts incase more additional information surfaced. What happens if a video popped up before their secondary and tertiary "investigation" found the event to be true? Learn to read without your BW blinders on. See below. Now can you please keep your biased opinions out of this thread, it only makes the BW Cool Aid ring around your lips more obvious.

So every person you every fought in a mmo was the same level? You are full of it. You are not a PVPer, you are a carebear pretending to be a pvper. Ever been in a raid group looking for world pvp? Please take your pve opinions out of the pvp forum, we don't go to yours and polute it with inaccurate information.

Says the guy who doesn't world pvp. How do you know what its about if you never did it?

Right, cause clicking your mouse a few times and waiting a minute or so for loading is sooo difficult, do you get out of breathe standing up from your chair? What you said is absolutely the reason for someone like you to roll a PVE server and the difference between pvpers like us and chumps like you. We do not want to kill low level players for giggles, we want competition which is why we started this fight and followed up this fight in The Black Hole. Again your PVP inadequacies are showing. The zerg you speak of is acatully a carefully orchstrated ballet if you will. Chumps like you can't figure out the moving DMZ line and get caught in it and wrecked, then yell "zerg zerg", when its actually your lack of pvp skills that was the deciding factor. Thanks for making it obvious that your pvp credability is nonexistent so others can ignore your future posts on the topic.

You obviously do not understand world pvp, so your comments really do not add any valueable input. Let me break it down for you, so you can pretend to understand it. We did not go to Hoth to exclusively gank low level players, we went there to stir up the repubs to come pvp. Why did we pick Hoth? Well its pretty complicated so let me explain; we went to a bunch or plants and tried to find people to pvp with. Ilum is a ghost town, Corellia has horrible load times, so queueing from there is painful. The Black Hole is great, except people just run into instances instead of fighting. So what does that leave us? We surveyed other plantes and this had the most traffic. Why pick the planet/base with the most traffic? Because it greatens the odds of someone calling a guild or spamming it on fleet (which apparently happened). So apparently there was a "need" for our ops group to be there. When rolling a character on a pvp server you should be aware that there is no such thing as "fair" pvp. There isn't any "this area is for pvp, and this area isn't". If its a contested area and you are on the opposing faction, be ready to fight, plain and simple, level/gear/gender/religious/race/age is irrelevant. Don't want to fight or be ganked, figure out a way to get out of Dodge when you see red before they see you. Your TOS argument is pointless, killing anyone on a pvp server while they are questing would be a violation of the TOS by your definition. I mean should i run up to someone, wait for them to kill their mobs, wait till they med up, wait for his cooldowns, then we can start fighting? Or maybe I should ask them what gear they have before trying to fight them, if I have better gear, should I remove a few pieces to make it fair? What about the skill difference, should better players play one handed, or maybe with their monitor off? Get real, roll on a PVE server and keep your PVE mentality out of the PVP forum.

Publicily slandering paying subscribers, insisting that this was looked into, only to find your foot in your mouth when you realized that it was indeed a factual event. Nice way of treating your customers, shall we expect this type of "customer service" in all your games? http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=465256&page=23

I was in the raid when this happened, Kiroshei's post was not a fraud. Bioware is straight out lying to everyone to cover their rears. I am utter astounded that they are actually publicly calling one of their subscribers a liar when there was about 20 other people in Hoth and in the raid that witnessed it. I actually have a trouble ticket open with CS from lastnight when it happened. Just another example that shows how messed up it is at Bioware. Lying directly to all of its customers on a public forum. This company is a complete joke, stay away from this game and pretty much anything Bioware releases.

So pvp on a pvp server = ban? Guess the only pvp swtor players will see is when GW2 releases

Mistakenly made this post in the wrong subforum, posting it here instead. So I have been on The Fatman server since I started this game in late Jan. This server has been the most populated PVP server for a long time and has always had a fairly large active player base. It was typical to see at least 2 fleet instances up for most of the day. At peak times or on weekends, it was not unusual to be in queue for 30 mins just to get in the game (on freebie weekends you could be in queue for 50-60 mins). Once in the game, PVP queues popped all day and through 6am EST. Just the other day, we had 5 CW instances up at 6am EST on a wednesday. Fast forward to yesterday, which is a free weekend. Single instance up and less than 30 people at 1am EST on a freebie friday night. The GTN no longer has the abundance it once had and the player base is dwindling. If this is happening on the most populated PVP server in the game, I can't imagine how bad it must be for people on low pop servers. I would be willing to guess that over 50% of the player base on the Fatman have either unsubbed or are in the process of doing so (no motivation to log on = subscription being cancelled soon). With the lack of any information from BW regarding anything that actually matters to pvp players, my assumption is that this is the end of the road for us. If they actually had anything in the works, we would hear about it. I mean they have no problems pulling content right before a patch after hyping it up, why wouldn't they be more than willing to provide information on future PVP updates? The real answer to me is, THERE IS NONE. Most PVPers would be happy with 8 person queues until the ELO rated system could be implemented, but I am pretty sure the only way this will be implemented now is as a last ditch effort to save subs. Dimishing player base - CHECK No updated content other than "fluff", (I mean legacy) - CHECK Zero updates from the development team regarding status of said content - CHECK Constant bugs on every patch - CHECK Development team saying something is fixed in the patch notes and it is not fixed in game - CHECK New bugs to go along with the old ones that never get fixed - CHECK Cancel subscription- CHECK GAME OVER, time to wait for GW2.

So I have been on The Fatman server since I started this game in late Jan. This server has been the most populated PVP server for a long time and has always had a fairly large active player base. It was typical to see at least 2 fleet instances up for most of the day. At peak times or on weekends, it was not unusual to be in queue for 30 mins just to get in the game (on freebie weekends you could be in queue for 50-60 mins). Once in the game, PVP queues popped all day and through 6am EST. Just the other day, we had 5 CW instances up at 6am EST on a wednesday. Fast forward to yesterday, which is a free weekend. Single instance up and less than 30 people at 1am EST on a freebie friday night. The GTN no longer has the abundance it once had and the player base is dwindling. If this is happening on the most populated PVP server in the game, I can't imagine how bad it must be for people on low pop servers. I would be willing to guess that over 50% of the player base on the Fatman have either unsubbed or are in the process of doing so (no motivation to log on = subscription being cancelled soon). With the lack of any information from BW regarding anything that actually matters to pvp players, my assumption is that this is the end of the road for us. If they actually had anything in the works, we would hear about it. I mean they have no problems pulling content right before a patch after hyping it up, why wouldn't they be more than willing to provide information on future PVP updates? The real answer to me is, THERE IS NONE. Most PVPers would be happy with 8 person queues until the ELO rated system could be implemented, but I am pretty sure the only way this will be implemented now is as a last ditch effort to save subs. Dimishing player base - CHECK No updated content other than "fluff", (I mean legacy) - CHECK Zero updates from the development team regarding status of said content - CHECK Constant bugs on every patch - CHECK Development team saying something is fixed in the patch notes and it is not fixed in game - CHECK New bugs to go along with the old ones that never get fixed - CHECK Cancel subscription- CHECK GAME OVER, time to wait for GW2.

Sorry I don't agree. Mercs and Maras are not the only classes that can put up big total damage numbers and because of this your comparrison is not accrate. Any DPS class with a competent player on the keyboard can do more damage than a darkness sin. I run with a Jugg, and he can definately do more total damage than me in a typical (close) WZ. Not only that, he has the option to go defensive and use guard when needed. So not only can he dominate the damage stats, he has the option to go defensive and help with guard mitigation, being able to pick damage OR defensive during a fight is something that a sin really cannot do, we are stuck with defense due to the force cost for stance changing. If you are going to argue that darkness sins do more damage than well played Merc, Mara, Jugg, Madness Sin or Sorc, then all I have to say find some new people to play with. Cause darkness dps will not be any where near those classes if they are played well. Also as for your second point, we are not the only class with stealth, and what a revelation, stealth is great for holding resources. Who would of ever thought? Again as I pointed out, your third point is not valid as a Jugg can do more damage and can also go guard if needed.

As someone else in the thread has pointed out, how do you know the damage is "higher than intended"? Since you seem to think that you know our class mechanics and how the developers wanted this class to function, what are our abilities hitting for? First off lets take a look one of our main damage skills as 31/0/10, shock. Against equally geared people (which is important when comparing damage stats, since equal gear will allow for higher mitigation via expertise), shock hits for ~1000 damage base and ~2.5k crits with reck popped, hardly "higher than intended" and definitely not "VERY hard" as you stated and since reck is on a long cd, its not something that is always available. Second you list both specs and skills from both however, you do not distinguish that not all of these abilities are available to both specs, 31/0/10 does not get death field nor haunted dreams, but thanks for trying to misinform people to sway them toward your biased opinion. Sorry you got owned, but maybe you should reanalyze why you got smacked and make adjustments, rather than coming to the forums and trying to fabricate information to counter your inability to play.

Thanks for the valuable information, I will be sure to ask people on your server. Maybe you can provide some feedback to the scenarios and situations posted above? I am sure that your superb understanding of our class will shed some light on the uninitiated like myself.

Hot swapping targets will cooldowns is nothing new and works great against less experienced players, against seasoned players its not so cut and dry. Seasoned playes will see the swap, call it out on vent and adjust with peels. That is if they arent on you as soon as you pop (which is what I have seen most of the time). So what you are saying is that you never have to pop defensive cds to get the kill? I don't know what to say to that other than, how are you preventing peels? So you get your kill target to 20% and ready to drop the target, you see two dps coming to support their teammate, how are you preventing any number of cc's that are headed your way? So either you eat the cc and the target lives with the added benefit of being exposed. Or you pop FS, prevent the cc and get the kill. At least this way you dropped one target, either way you are exposed and against any team that has a clue, you will now be eating damage like a fat man at burgerking (which I prefer do do with them being 1 man down). Yes, it was a generalization. I run primarily with a Jugg, dps sorc, heal sorc and myself. Typically we have primary/seconday guard/taunt coverage. Meaning my Jugg will usually take the primary role with guard and I take secondary with taunt (I am not going to cover all the scenarios and swappping). But he will usually start with guard on whatever target the opposing team is on (usually our dps sorc). When I pop to assist, if the opposing team doesn't swap to me, we are golden, as I can open, aoe taunt, build procs then dps (untouched we definately can control the flow of fights, and usually the outcome). However, against people that understand that sitting on a deception assassin, not only stops our dps, but also strains our healer more than than sitting on any other class, we are usually in a up hill fight. If they switch (or should I say when they switch), Jugg swithes guard to me, my taunts are useless since they are on me now. And since my mitigation is crap, not only am I taking lots of damage, but so is our Jugg. So going by your suggestion, I pop FS and FC and wait till my healer picks me back up to join the fight. Does the other team just wait while we do this? Because for us, this is when we push. When a opposing deception assssin pops and is forced to pop defensive cds and go stealth, we are now fighting 3v4 and push hard. If he pops again, its almost always a garunteed kill (no cds to reset and no mitigation), with the hard push when he goes stealth on the secondary target, it usually means they are forced to get back in the fight quickly, so even if we have a kill target is at <50%, we will swap back to the assassin and get the kill the majority of the time. I agree, assassins are a great class and can be viable in PVP, I just don't see this happening as well with deception against teams that understand target priority, cd management and hot swapping compared to other specs. Also, I do not agree that our inability to bring uniqueness to team play being the downfall of the spec. I feel its our inability to do the roll that the decpetion spec is geared towards, stealth burst, glass cannon, we are more of a .22 than a cannon. I do not agree with the change to Static Cling, it already is one of the best snares in the game, giving us a almost spammable single target snare. I do agree with the timer durations removal (or at least increasing it to 60 secs) for ind/vs procs. What I would like to see is, reduced cooldown on FS, Fc and deflection, FS duration being 4sec base and a slight increase in base force regen. This will give us better survivability (if cds are used properly) and better dps for longer fights (being out of stealth). Again, I am not saying that assassins are bad, I am saying that imho, deception just has too many holes compared to other specs we currently have. If deception is a glass cannon spec, we should at least be able to drop more burst damage than other classes, but we do not.

Quoting numbers like "3k maul" and "discharge for 4k" do not justify anything you are saying. Are you accounting for gear differences? Sure I can hit those numbers without procs but it means nothing, because against geared people I do not see those numbers.

I think what the OP is assuming is that people expressing dislike for deception in pvp are "doing it wrong", but I do not think that is the case. What you have said is not some revelation, most understand all of the points you have and agree with it. Here are some of the issues imho. The power up burst that you are referring it is great, however it requires several things to make it work; reck, relic and procs. Without these you will run into issues dropping people. So we have 90secs between our burst, not ideal, since we really are subpar once reck, relic (and potentially adren) are on cd. Another issue is, our "burst" damage is quite easy to predict and mitigate vs. good players. Since we rely on duplicity and induction procs, we require a ramp up time on the target to build procs before actually bursting. Any good team will see the yoyo saber as soon as our first VS is used and can do quite a few things to counter us. First our 15k burst will probably be 7k since our target will get guarded while we ramp up to burst. Second, KB/Root (snare), or any stun/mez will neuter us. Yes, we can use our defensive cds, like FS offensively (which I found was needed vs. good players/teams to get the kill on healers or the kill target), however its 3secs, and once its down our ability to escape and reset for the next target is severely hindered (or simply escape alive). To me this makes no sense, we are the easiest class to kill, yet we require as much ramp up time on target to do "burst" as say a jugg who has the mitigation to stand there and ramp up charges without dropping to 20% while doing so. Once we are out of stealth, we will instantly become the new assist target for the opposing team (if they have a clue), not because of our burst, but because we are the softest class with the least defensive cds that require ramp up time to burst. Seems like a great formula for getting cblocked regularly. Another issue (for me anyway), playing with a team, is that I felt I was not bringing much to the table. Here is an example, lets say we have two teams 4v4 at a resource in a wz each with a healer and 3 dps. I as a assassin, open on the healer assisting one of my dps teammates. In doing so I burn all of my burst cds and potentially FS and FC, so we get the kill. Now I am a sitting duck, so either i sprint away and try and restealth or stand there and hope my healer can keep me up with 3 dps beating on me. Either way I am no longer providing any "real" value to my team. My force regen is now crap since DS and DE are down severely limiting my dps and having tissue paper as armor really puts a strain on my healer and dps teammates who now have to guard, peel for me. When rated WZs become available (and providing there aren't changes to our class), I highly doubt that any high rated team will take a deception assassin over say a operative for the stealth/burst role (if all other variables are constant, skill/gear/etc between the two players). We are simply subpar in comparison for this role. I really wish deception was more viable for me, but as it stand right now. I feel that we bring much more to the table as a spec that I really had no intention of playing when I rolled this AC, darkness...... Just my $0.02