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Quarterly Producer Letter for Q2 2024 ×

Sniper Marksman

thendavesaid

By thendavesaid
in Gunslinger / Sniper

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thendavesaid

thendavesaid

Posted
Posted
How about getting rid of Rapid Fire, the last skill in the marksman tree and replacing it with a short stealth that only works in cover. Give it a 2 minute cooldown and breaks on the first attack. Not very useful in pve, I know, but Rapid Fire doesn't seem very useful in pvp either.
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Xizari

Xizari

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Posted
How about getting rid of Rapid Fire, the last skill in the marksman tree and replacing it with a short stealth that only works in cover. Give it a 2 minute cooldown and breaks on the first attack. Not very useful in pve, I know, but Rapid Fire doesn't seem very useful in pvp either.

 

Um... Rapid Fire isn't supposed to be for PvP. Clearly that's the PvE tree. If you want PvP Talents go Eng/Leth.

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Alkei

Alkei

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Posted
I use it in WZs when instasnipe, ambush, followthrough and SOS are on cd. Another SOS is better than 1.5 sec casted snipe with no FT. Still yeah, for a top tree talent it's extremely weak. A bit better than Target Acquired (nearly uselees lvl50 learned ability) though.
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Alkei

Alkei

Posted
Posted
when u consider that SoS is our single strongest skill, being able to use it 3 times in a row is awesome.

i have hit players for 2k per hit, if all 4 shots crit its 8k damage, 2 SoS will kill most, a 3rd is just insurance.

 

On a naked sorcs maybe? I hit like 1600 max per hit in almost full BM+rakata stim without relic/adrenal. And when used on tanks it's often 300-500 per hit.

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Xizari

Xizari

Posted
Posted (edited)
Care to explain your thinking here?

 

You serious? Read the trees. It's OBVIOUS Marksman was designed with a more PvE-centric focus then say Lethality. Anyone who has ever played a Sniper in raids will tell you that Marksman is currently our most PvE related tree. Whether or not BioWare says they have "PvP Specs" or not, they do. And right now our PvP specs are Lethality or Lethality/Engineering. People want everything to be viable without thinking of what you're asking for.

 

If the OP gets his wish and they change Rapid Fire to a PvP skill, thanks you just broke Marksman. All of us Marksman Snipers now have to redo our builds because you have us talented into PvP abilities.

 

 

This game is not solely designed around PvP. There WILL be PvP Specs/Trees and there WILL be PvE Specs/Trees. If you read the Engineering or Lethality (especially Leth) trees you'll see PLENTY Of PvP talents for you to choose from.

Edited by Xizari
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Sleak

Sleak

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Posted

Rapid Fire is a complete waste of a talent for pvp. For you people who dont think so... respec and get inter probe slow and you'll be amazed at how much longer you live just from doing that.

 

For the people who think that SoS is our "strongest ability". Gonna have to say your wrong on that, because a Reactive Shot Ambush + an Auto Shot does more damage in the same amount of cast time and you save 5 energy. So unless your stacking alacrity to buff SoS and make it perform better it is not our best ability. The total cast time taking the equivelant of 2 GCD's hurts it a lot since you can add an auto shot after any ability and it almost makes it as good as SoS.

 

The only way that you can defend Rapid Fire is if you only use it while Target Acquired is going. If you have target acquired going it is a dps increase to spam SoS 3 times in a row then go back to your rotation.

 

Rapid Fire is pretty worthless right now seeing as it is very easy to argue that it may not even be a dps increase getting 3 attacks a rotation instead of 2. I think that the best spec right now is 30/8/3 getting the extra 15% dmg to OD and the 15 sec off its cast.

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Tibbel

Tibbel

Posted
Posted (edited)
You serious? Read the trees. It's OBVIOUS Marksman was designed with a more PvE-centric focus then say Lethality. Anyone who has ever played a Sniper in raids will tell you that Marksman is currently our most PvE related tree. Whether or not BioWare says they have "PvP Specs" or not, they do. And right now our PvP specs are Lethality or Lethality/Engineering. People want everything to be viable without thinking of what you're asking for.

 

If the OP gets his wish and they change Rapid Fire to a PvP skill, thanks you just broke Marksman. All of us Marksman Snipers now have to redo our builds because you have us talented into PvP abilities.

 

 

This game is not solely designed around PvP. There WILL be PvP Specs/Trees and there WILL be PvE Specs/Trees. If you read the Engineering or Lethality (especially Leth) trees you'll see PLENTY Of PvP talents for you to choose from.

 

How are we defining "PvP skills"?

 

Skills that have uses besides increasing sustained DPS?

 

Marksmanship:

  • Cover Screen (ranged defense)
  • Heavy Shot (knockback)
  • Ballistic Dampers (damage reduction)
  • Imperial Demarcation (reduced cooldown on root)
  • Snap Shot (instant Snipe)
  • Diversion (accuracy debuff)
  • Sector Ranger (increased knockback)
  • Pillbox Sniper (reduced Entrench cooldown)

Engineering:

  • Engineer's Tool Belt (reduced Flash Bang cooldown)
  • Vitality Serum (increased health)
  • Vital Regulators (self heal)
  • Inventive Interrogation Techniques (snare)
  • Stroke of Genius (instant Snipe)
  • EMP Discharge (resets Shield Probe cooldown)
  • Augmented Shields (increased damage absorption)
  • Deployed Shields (damage reduction)

Lethality:

  • Flash Powder (accuracy debuff)
  • Slip Away (speed increase)
  • Corrosive Microbes (snare)
  • Vanish (reduced cooldown on Escape and defense cooldown)
  • Counterstrike (root/snare break)
  • Hold Your Ground (reduced cooldown on shield and knockback)

 

There's nothing there that screams "Lethality is the default PvP spec!"

 

 

The spec that everybody uses for PvP?

 

Judging by reading around this forum, it looks like plenty of people are using specs other than Lethality in PvP.

 

 

The only spec with access to a "required" or clearly superior ability for PvP?

 

Every spec gets Escape, Entrench, Debilitate, and cover. Those are the only abilities I could really call "required" for PvP (in my opinion, of course). Some of the skills high in each tree are very nice (especially Cull and Followthrough), but none of them are by any means unanimously agreed upon to be mandatory for success in PvP.

 

 

Looking again at the different spec's skill trees, I would say there's much stronger evidence that they've made a conscious effort to spread out these "PvP skills" across the breadth of our three specs rather than that they've made any obvious distinctions between "PvP specs" and "PvE specs".

Edited by Tibbel
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DrekorSilverfang

DrekorSilverfang

Posted
Posted
You serious? Read the trees. It's OBVIOUS Marksman was designed with a more PvE-centric focus then say Lethality. Anyone who has ever played a Sniper in raids will tell you that Marksman is currently our most PvE related tree. Whether or not BioWare says they have "PvP Specs" or not, they do. And right now our PvP specs are Lethality or Lethality/Engineering. People want everything to be viable without thinking of what you're asking for.

 

If the OP gets his wish and they change Rapid Fire to a PvP skill, thanks you just broke Marksman. All of us Marksman Snipers now have to redo our builds because you have us talented into PvP abilities.

 

 

This game is not solely designed around PvP. There WILL be PvP Specs/Trees and there WILL be PvE Specs/Trees. If you read the Engineering or Lethality (especially Leth) trees you'll see PLENTY Of PvP talents for you to choose from.

 

...

 

So you're reasoning is to ignore the tree with the biggest burst damage and instead go for the tree with easily dispelled sustained damage.

 

BRILLIANT.

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NotRonin

NotRonin

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Posted

Most snipers seems to have things backward. Lethality spec have a greater burst against armored opponents, but bigger energy cost. Marksmanship have lower energy cost but sucks against armored opponents. As most PvP situations involves a short burst of fighting followed by movement/idleness/death, it suits the Lethality tree better.

 

As to the general design, the 3 trees for each of the classes starts off with this in mind : direct mitigated damage (PvE), unmitigated damage over time (PvP), and a tree for utility. Of course, not everything went as planned, which is why the developer swings the 'nerf bat' (I mean, adjustment) so the class will behave as they envisioned it.

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Xizari

Xizari

Posted
Posted (edited)
How are we defining "PvP skills"?

 

Skills that have uses besides increasing sustained DPS?

 

Marksmanship:

  • Cover Screen (ranged defense)
  • Heavy Shot (knockback)
  • Ballistic Dampers (damage reduction)
  • Imperial Demarcation (reduced cooldown on root)
  • Snap Shot (instant Snipe)
  • Diversion (accuracy debuff)
  • Sector Ranger (increased knockback)
  • Pillbox Sniper (reduced Entrench cooldown)

Engineering:

  • Engineer's Tool Belt (reduced Flash Bang cooldown)
  • Vitality Serum (increased health)
  • Vital Regulators (self heal)
  • Inventive Interrogation Techniques (snare)
  • Stroke of Genius (instant Snipe)
  • EMP Discharge (resets Shield Probe cooldown)
  • Augmented Shields (increased damage absorption)
  • Deployed Shields (damage reduction)

Lethality:

  • Flash Powder (accuracy debuff)
  • Slip Away (speed increase)
  • Corrosive Microbes (snare)
  • Vanish (reduced cooldown on Escape and defense cooldown)
  • Counterstrike (root/snare break)
  • Hold Your Ground (reduced cooldown on shield and knockback)

 

There's nothing there that screams "Lethality is the default PvP spec!"

 

 

The spec that everybody uses for PvP?

 

Judging by reading around this forum, it looks like plenty of people are using specs other than Lethality in PvP.

 

 

The only spec with access to a "required" or clearly superior ability for PvP?

 

Every spec gets Escape, Entrench, Debilitate, and cover. Those are the only abilities I could really call "required" for PvP (in my opinion, of course). Some of the skills high in each tree are very nice (especially Cull and Followthrough), but none of them are by any means unanimously agreed upon to be mandatory for success in PvP.

 

 

Looking again at the different spec's skill trees, I would say there's much stronger evidence that they've made a conscious effort to spread out these "PvP skills" across the breadth of our three specs rather than that they've made any obvious distinctions between "PvP specs" and "PvE specs".

 

What a smart *** question... Everyone knows a PvP talent when they see one, so don't act like you don't know what that means.

 

Lethality has: Hold Your Ground, Counterstrike, Adhesive Corrosives, Vanish, Slip Away, and Flash Powder. None of those have enough worth to be used in any serious PvE build. Marksman has some PvP Talents such as Imperial Demarcation and Heavy Shot. They are positioned low enough for a reason, and that is so that other trees may access them. Cover Screen and Ballistic Dampers have SOME worth in PvE (though not a lot) and we can't skip them even if we tried. Sector Ranger + Pillbox Sniper are not PvP talents because they have worth to PvE builds. Marksman uses Orbital Strike as a core component of it's DPS rotation/prioritization. Engineering is sort of the bridge between the two and has the mix of AoE/PvP/PvE. ALSO, Lethality is the most mobile. Don't try to tell me Mobility is not a huge help in PvP...

At the end of the day you're arguing semantics. The Sniper community's general consensus is that Lethality or Lethality/Eng is THE PvP spec and Marksman is the PvE. This is evidenced by playing either spec. Regardless of whether you agree or not, Lethality is the PvP focused tree at the moment, though this could certainly change. It's obvious that the emphasis on Marksman was for PvE. If they wanted us to PvP primarily as Marksman, they'd have made us mobile and gave us a ton of talents involving move speeds, stuns, and snares. And yes there are people who PvP as Marksman (Such as me...) but they are a minority. The majority of PvP Snipers are rocking Lethality or Lethality/Engineering hybrid.

 

Series of Shots is an ability marginalized in PvP. Just read what other people, even in this thread, have said about it. SoS is primarily a PvE ability (I'm not saying it's NEVER used in PvP), and is a main weapon for a Marksman Sniper. Rapid Fire is a talent designed to increase it's use in a Raid Scenario. There is no counter argument to this, no matter how hard you try.

 

 

Summation: All 3 trees can be used for PvE or PvP. Lethality or Lethality/Eng are the BEST PvP specs we currently have available, while Marksman is the worst. Marksman is also the BEST PvE tree we currently have available.

 

 

 

...

 

So you're reasoning is to ignore the tree with the biggest burst damage and instead go for the tree with easily dispelled sustained damage.

 

BRILLIANT.

 

You do realize:

 

A. Marksman burst is AWFUL against any class with mitigation or heavy armor?

B. Big deal we do the most burst, we also have the least survivability, and the least mobility. Damage is not always the most important...just look at how good Juggernauts are in PvP or how Warlocks were in early WoW when they used SL/SL. Damage =/= Good at PvP.

C. Easily dispelled? It's not that easy to dispel if you're a competent Lethality sniper...

 

 

 

Most snipers seems to have things backward. Lethality spec have a greater burst against armored opponents, but bigger energy cost. Marksmanship have lower energy cost but sucks against armored opponents. As most PvP situations involves a short burst of fighting followed by movement/idleness/death, it suits the Lethality tree better.

 

As to the general design, the 3 trees for each of the classes starts off with this in mind : direct mitigated damage (PvE), unmitigated damage over time (PvP), and a tree for utility. Of course, not everything went as planned, which is why the developer swings the 'nerf bat' (I mean, adjustment) so the class will behave as they envisioned it.

 

^^^ Exactly.

 

Thought as a Marksman Sniper I wouldn't exactly call us energy efficient either...

 

 

 

 

This is all off topic though. The point is, that people complaining that Marksman doesn't have more PvP talents are people who are in their own world. As long as this game follows the WoW-esque style of talents/talent trees there will always be specs that do things better then other specs. If you changed Rapid Fire to a PvP talent, then you'd be saying that all 3 trees have equal emphasis on PvP. It is close to impossible to make 3 trees with different play styles and yet are all equally viable in all forms of game play. It's not going to happen... so get used to there being certain PvP-centric specs/trees and certain PvE-centric specs/trees.

Edited by Xizari
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MaroBaro

MaroBaro

Posted
Posted

Sometimes things seem better on paper than they really are. People seem to overvalue armor way too much. And while it is true that against a well geared tank we are going to have trouble so will almost any class. You run out of energy, distance and time way faster when you are lethality. 18k damage is a lot of dots for a long time so you won't be able to pop a couple of CDs and possibily stop that tank from scoring on Huttball... you have got a little bit more options with MM such as knockback ambush, root cover pulse, and a lot more damage on demand from Followthru and Insta-Snipe. As for Distance since you spend more time in cover tanks cannot leap at you. So if you are on the top platform in huttball they have to just take it and when and if they start getting close they have to deal with flashbang, debilitate, cover pulse, leg shot,knockback ambush and 9 seconds of -45% acc, plus 3 seconds where they cannot do damage to you.

 

 

On a good day heavy armor gives you 25% damage mitigation. Now I am not matematician but with Shatter Shot you are left with about 20%, then with 112% accuracy the damage mitigation will go down to 17%, and with ambush bypassing 20% from talents you are looking at about 14% damage mitigation. And this is for heavy armor. Medium is about 8-9% and light armor is about 5%. And I can bet you that my MM shots deal way more than 14% extra IMEDIATE damage than lethality.

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Hyrune

Hyrune

Posted
Posted
(...)

On a good day heavy armor gives you 25% damage mitigation. Now I am not matematician but with Shatter Shot you are left with about 20%, then with 112% accuracy the damage mitigation will go down to 17%, and with ambush bypassing 20% from talents you are looking at about 14% damage mitigation. And this is for heavy armor. Medium is about 8-9% and light armor is about 5%. And I can bet you that my MM shots deal way more than 14% extra IMEDIATE damage than lethality.

 

First, accuracy over 100% does NOT reduce the armor protection but the defense i.e. chance to be deflected.

 

Second, when it comes to armor I would break down things like this:

* Tank : armor reduces about 50 % energy/kinetic damage and stance/talent reduces about 10 % (20% Sorc/Sage buffed) elem/internal damage

* Heavy dps : about 30 % / 0%

* Other : up to 20 %

 

If you consider the seconds, Shatter should reduce their armor from 30% to 24%

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Ravikar

Ravikar

Posted
Posted
Shatter shot removes 20% of the armor stat, which seems pretty close to the percentage of mitigation. On myself with mitigation 24%, removing 20% of my armor stat gives me 21% mitigation. Hence why I dont bother even using shatter shot because its a difference of 3% damage (I am lethality though), although I can see it being useful stacking with ambush -20% armor.
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shaghat

shaghat

Posted
Posted (edited)

Marksman is the best spec to play in team.

 

In pvp you don't kill solo if you want the victory.

 

You have preshoot and burst to kill and only to kill.

Sometime you have to wait and execute a big burst at the better moment.

In pvp you search the surprise effect.

You play against healer you need to play with her reactivity.

The first generally healer play the emergency and outburst player with low life.

 

Play lethality you do nothing your dot is like sending a mail hello this guy come to die.

 

Pvp is more subtile than put all your damage and cc at the engage.

 

Take sos this skill si designed for pvp.

 

4 tick with two at the "end" to play with followthroug this is to make surprise first shoot not make enough damage and healer think they have the time to switch but at the end is awful two sos tick and a folllowthroug at the same moment.

 

If is not enough you have an 1.5 ambush and take down to put 7k end damage.

Edited by shaghat
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