Attacking republic in Open World is griefing?

[VegaPhone]

BW needs to find its focus with mechanics that represent what they want in their game to better define distinctions of griefing and open world gameplay. If they have an open world, then there should be options to do open world objectives instead of moderating players too often because a lack of mechanics which according to them results in griefing.

 

Basically, they created a pvp server that is bordering on the needs of people who want to pvp only when they are ready, which is a self flagging pvp server and not a pvp server. So make a self flagging pvp server for people who do not want to be harassed.

 

So instead of BW taking the blame that you players are griefing because there is no content to actually use where both sides consent open world pvp, they say its your fault for having too much fun.

 

That content includes - a self flagging server, or more open world objectives attracting people to do that instead.

 

1. They want to make a game that allows people to play their content and not be 'harassed'. Fine, thats possible on a pvp server.

 

Just to clarify that harassment (griefing) is something people consider denying them progression in their content multiple times on a pvp server.

 

2. They want a pvp server

 

3. They want a themepark MMO with open world

 

 

Now if this was Illum for example, you can't call it griefing.

 

So lets start with that as an example as to why BW should have better mechanics if they want to call similar Illum gameplay in thier themepark MMO- and call it griefing when it becomes that to better define it.

 

If the open world with questing areas had other open world objectives that attracted people to focus more on the open world objectives then there would be less griefing by giving them a platform to do their open world pvp. Similar to making an Illum, to do open world pvp.

 

Then, when BW calls pvp in questing areas griefing it becomes more distinct since there are actual options to do open world pvp. That at least the occoasinal option to fight people in questing areas makes it more immersive but the attraction should be towards world pvp. Then that is the next problem. Is BW willing to create a real pvp game, with real open world objectives along side thier story content? Are they willing to give players that real choice of pvp leveling or story leveling? BW for some reason does not want people to overloook their story content and therefore made open world pvp worse. They know thier options, but in doing so, they created a pvp server that expects people to no greif when playing on a pvp server.

 

So by them having an open space, and no options to pvp, then when people do similar strategies of pvp as in Illum, they are setting themselves up to moderate pvp servers by creating that atmosphere but also not giving people options to use in game mechanics to do open world pvp.

 

Therefore if BW is going to call open world pvp - griefing, or harrasment then there should be other open world pvp objectives in the game or not allow people to pvp, since it is more of an illusion that the world has any kind of pvp if there is no space to actually have open world pvp strategies.

 

The difference of BW having places that are similar to Illum is that the objectives set them apart compared to places they want to call pvp, and then since it does not work by having quest areas in their themepark they say too much pvp is harassment or griefing.

 

So BW, put more open world objectives in the open world for pvpers.

Put a crafting system that supports open world as well.

Put world bosses in PVE areas and in open world PVP areas.

Put PVE objectives in open world pvp areas similar to WAR.

 

or

 

Let people have more questing areas that cross each other, and have healthy populated servers... and let people have fun with pvp.

 

or

 

The only other solution is make a self-flag pvp server. Allow people to move there if that is what they want. People can flag themselves if they want to pvp, or other wise in the open world they cant be harmed. Thats what these people want, so give them that option.

Edited February 19, 2012 by VegaPhone

[afootdoc]

I've done what OPs group did several times before, on a PvE server. If I got a "warning" from BW I'd promptly unsub. That is utter garbage, even on a PvE server much less a PvP server.

 

Why is this game, and especially their CS, getting worse and worse? Cater to qqers much BW?

[arteous]

Sounds like OP is clueless about rulesets on pvp servers.

 

Let's take a quick look at previous mmo's with pvp rule servers when it comes to world bosses or bosses that are not "instanced".

 

 

U.O. If they are engaged in with the boss interferance would be met with some kind of temp ban / warning. it was considered grefing.

 

E.Q. pretty much same. course there were instances of people sending their monks to train mobs on the raid to wipe them.

 

WoW. You let them at the world boss and once done with it .. weather they wiped or they killed it then they were open game .. Multiple bans over the years in vanilla this hapend.

 

 

so why should it be any different in swtor?? Generally as long as they are engaged with the boss they are no touchy. afterwards have fun camping em and keeping em from looting the corpse.

 

 

btw .. for the pve servers .. flag up and stand next to the tank .. if he uses an aoe tank he'll get flagged up .. some reason aoe taunt tries to affect the pvp flagged player and flags the tank .. healers will get flagged while healing him .. causing more problems.

Edited February 19, 2012 by arteous

[sensiblepoast]

I imagine the ticket read something like.

 

"Bioware please herp us, I wants new shinnes and I can't get them because I get attacked by mean sith players. They use sabers and things. This makes my butt hurt. Please give shinnes."

 

I imagine the ticket more along the lines of:

 

"Waaaaah plz plz BIoware help us the evil repubs are killing us and they're mean and we're supposed to be thea mean guys why do they kill us we rolled on the bandwagon faction omg why WHY THE F** WHY FU** BIOWARE DO SOMETNIGGG"

[VegaPhone]

Sounds like OP is clueless about rulesets on pvp servers.

 

Let's take a quick look at previous mmo's with pvp rule servers when it comes to world bosses or bosses that are not "instanced".

 

 

U.O. If they are engaged in with the boss interferance would be met with some kind of temp ban / warning. it was considered grefing.

 

E.Q. pretty much same. course there were instances of people sending their monks to train mobs on the raid to wipe them.

 

WoW. You let them at the world boss and once done with it .. weather they wiped or they killed it then they were open game .. Multiple bans over the years in vanilla this hapend.

 

 

so why should it be any different in swtor?? Generally as long as they are engaged with the boss they are no touchy. afterwards have fun camping em and keeping em from looting the corpse.

 

 

btw .. for the pve servers .. flag up and stand next to the tank .. if he uses an aoe tank he'll get flagged up .. some reason aoe taunt tries to affect the pvp flagged player and flags the tank .. healers will get flagged while healing him .. causing more problems.

 

UO was a sand box MMO. There was a crafting system that supported that sand box MMO and therefor to call certain kinds of pvp encounters griefing was distinct enough since there were other options.

 

What are the options in swtor? IF people do not engage in random encounters because the population is limited, and segregated that its as if swtor is calling the only/limited kind of pvp you can experience in the open world is griefing.

Edited February 19, 2012 by VegaPhone

[arteous]

UO was a sand box MMO. There was a crafting system that supported that sand box MMO and therefor to call certain kinds of pvp encounters griefing was distinct enough since there were other options.

 

What are the options in swtor? IF people do not engage in random encounters because the population is limited, and segregated that its as if swtor is calling the only/limited kind of pvp you can experience in the open world is griefing.

 

NICE OF you to stop reading at UO and not continue reading and realizing that EQ and WoW both also had the same rule involving pvp servers and "world bosses".

 

go back and read again.

 

again especially since WoW wich in somewhat simmilar to swtor .. has SAME RULES .. why should swtor be any different?

 

btw leveling =/= world bosses. that noobie trying to get to that npc to turn in a quest is fair game. hose 2 guys trying to take down an elite . fair game ... but raids on world bosses no touchy.

 

not that hard to comprehend. wait till they kill it and gank away

Edited February 19, 2012 by arteous

[VegaPhone]

NICE OF you to stop reading at UO and not continue reading and realizing that EQ and WoW both also had the same rule involving pvp servers and "world bosses".

 

go back and read again.

 

again especially since WoW wich in somewhat simmilar to swtor .. has SAME RULES .. why should swtor be any different?

 

btw leveling =/= world bosses. that noobie trying to get to that npc to turn in a quest is fair game. hose 2 guys trying to take down an elite . fair game ... but raids on world bosses no touchy.

 

not that hard to comprehend. wait till they kill it and gank away

 

WoW had people share questing areas, and therefore world pvp was quite intense. I barely played WoW, and only really played one class, but when I did on occasion I would run into people and we would fight.

 

In swtor that rarely happens, so at least WoW has a system that fits more with needs of their pvp customers by creating that atmosphere as limited as it was from a sand box perspective but at least there was pvp.

 

Swtor tried to prevent griefing too much and there are no other forms of world pvp, since questing areas are quite isolated.

 

Also if it is a rule that it is griefing attacking a group while attacking a boss, then why did they put that boss in the open world in the first place? You know why? Because sometimes people need a place to meet when there are no objectives. So if they are not going to find a group at a world boss where are they going to find them?

Edited February 19, 2012 by VegaPhone

[Sylriana]

WoW. You let them at the world boss and once done with it .. weather they wiped or they killed it then they were open game .. Multiple bans over the years in vanilla this hapend.

 

Uh.. what? No. I played WoW throughout Vanilla and counter-raiding when you knew someone was going for a world boss wasn't only allowed, it was basically standard practice. It was far weirder when you -didn't- attack or get attacked. At least on every PvP server I played on.

[Krondorf]

This incident should never be considered griefing.

 

If it is, then... Bio Ware has Failed. Big Time !

 

Imperials and Republics are never friends, Full Stop.

 

To be honest, in game the republics dont make me angry as much as compared to BioWare staff members. !!! Seriously !!

Edited February 19, 2012 by Krondorf

[diogolp]

Sounds like OP is clueless about rulesets on pvp servers.

 

Let's take a quick look at previous mmo's with pvp rule servers when it comes to world bosses or bosses that are not "instanced".

 

 

U.O. If they are engaged in with the boss interferance would be met with some kind of temp ban / warning. it was considered grefing.

 

E.Q. pretty much same. course there were instances of people sending their monks to train mobs on the raid to wipe them.

 

WoW. You let them at the world boss and once done with it .. weather they wiped or they killed it then they were open game .. Multiple bans over the years in vanilla this hapend.

 

 

so why should it be any different in swtor?? Generally as long as they are engaged with the boss they are no touchy. afterwards have fun camping em and keeping em from looting the corpse.

 

 

btw .. for the pve servers .. flag up and stand next to the tank .. if he uses an aoe tank he'll get flagged up .. some reason aoe taunt tries to affect the pvp flagged player and flags the tank .. healers will get flagged while healing him .. causing more problems.

 

BS. Just BS. In wow, the whole point of open world bosses WAS the pvp. In wow, you could not only pvp at world bosses. but you could invade opposing faction cities, and etc. Hell, most bosses would emote area-wide when the fight was initiated pretty much to invite opposing faction over. So I am pretty sure you are clueless about this.

[Jornas]

Sounds like OP is clueless about rulesets on pvp servers.

 

Let's take a quick look at previous mmo's with pvp rule servers when it comes to world bosses or bosses that are not "instanced".

 

 

U.O. If they are engaged in with the boss interferance would be met with some kind of temp ban / warning. it was considered grefing.

 

E.Q. pretty much same. course there were instances of people sending their monks to train mobs on the raid to wipe them.

 

WoW. You let them at the world boss and once done with it .. weather they wiped or they killed it then they were open game .. Multiple bans over the years in vanilla this hapend.

 

 

so why should it be any different in swtor?? Generally as long as they are engaged with the boss they are no touchy. afterwards have fun camping em and keeping em from looting the corpse.

 

 

btw .. for the pve servers .. flag up and stand next to the tank .. if he uses an aoe tank he'll get flagged up .. some reason aoe taunt tries to affect the pvp flagged player and flags the tank .. healers will get flagged while healing him .. causing more problems.

 

Yeah, but in Eve you not only get the chance to take all the guy's stuff, but also raid his real-life 401K. And in some Asian MMO that you've never heard of, you can actually go murder the guy in real life. Now that's REAL hardcore PVP.

 

http://pcworld.about.net/news/Jun092005id121299.htm

 

All joking aside, good post. I'm not sure why everyone thinks they're entitled to early MMO Wild West style gameplay, when all the major modern MMOs essentially have similar policies.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Jornas

[belialle]

 

WoW. You let them at the world boss and once done with it .. weather they wiped or they killed it then they were open game .. Multiple bans over the years in vanilla this hapend.

 

 

Yeah....No. A HUGE part of world bosses in WoW on PvP servers was competition between factions for the boss kill. The official stance was that if a PvP solution existed for the problem, GMs did not get involved. This was true even if a max level character decided to corpse camp a level 20 until it got bored. Obviously, things work a little differently on PvE servers, but that is not what we are talking about here.

 

Also...wasn't open world PvP pretty much non-existent in EQ (except for one server)?

[Zekeiele]

All of the "Zek" servers were open world Rallos Talon etc I think 4 or 5...only Rallos was nonfaction based.

[Redmarx]

I've just caught this thread but didn't want to read the last 16 pages beyond the OP so heres my take on it and I apologise if someone has said all this before.

 

FYI my Guild is on Terentatek a PvP server

 

This scenario has happened to me and my guild on the Belsavis boss. We would start attacking and be promptly attacked by a handful of imps, enough to disrupt us from our task. We chased them off and reset only to have it happen a couple more times. At this point none of us qq'd about what was happening nor did we call for a GM's help. Instead, we abandoned taking the boss down and instead went Imp hunting after the Guild that was attacking us.

 

Nothing wrong with what they were doing to us, I would probably have done the same and our world boss Ops group just switched to a PvP group and we changed our activity for the next half hour. After patrolling the area and taking out a few imps (we had the numbers so this isn't a boasting thread) they soon left and we returned to the boss and took him down.

 

Basically there is absolutely nothing wrong with attacking someone taking down a world boss. Open world PvP is supposed to be unpredictable and this adds to the 'suspense' whenever you are out questing. If you want fair fights all the time and no "griefing" (sorry I hate that word) then join a PvE server and just play Warzones.

 

This.

 

This is a PVPer who rolled on a PVP server.

 

Those who think they should not be harassed or messed with on a PVP server should reroll to a PVE server.

 

In other games, we had PVP fights over world bosses constantly. It was a routine occurrence. Emerald dragons, Azuregos, Kazzak, Doomwalker come to mind immediately. Huge battles, lots of raid nights cancelled in order to gank / fight back. No warnings or GM interference.

Do not roll on a PVP server if you cannot handle it. It is a choice you make.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Redmarx

[Dasgruberg]

Agree with OP, this is total BS, and they should just disable pvp servers if they do this.

[Ozzone]

Unlike some of you, I actually did go and read the whole thread.

 

First of all, I have learned a long time ago that game forums are full of liars. While there's no proof that this happened at all... many of you are taking the OP's post as truth. While I'm not going to call the OP a liar, I am also not going to accept what he posted as truth. Like some of you have said, where's the proof?

 

Ok, just for this discussion, let's assume that the OP did tell the truth and it did happen. Like some others have also said that there's more to the story than the OP is telling. Again, we don't know and there's a good chance we only heard part of the story.

 

But, let's pretend that it happened exactly the way the OP stated. The problem is the game mechanics and poor design. BW puts a boss in a PvP area that requires a full, or nearly full, ops group to take down a boss which isn't much different than any other PvE boss encounter. There's the problem right there. Mixing PvE content with PvP content is messy. Having NPCs near bases is not that bad of an idea, but putting a world boss in the middle of a PvP area and setting up spawn points within a 30sec trip is ridiculous.

 

Someone has said, just wipe them and go back to the boss. The problem is that a world boss fight usually takes longer than it takes for players to respawn and run back. Wiping them would be a great idea except that they can quickly come back and harass over and over. Make it so that if a player dies, they either get a combat rez or have to respawn a considerable distance from the boss. Making the respawn trip longer would help but it doesn't address the root problem - PvE raid level content in a PvP area. Get rid of it.

 

Solution. Get rid of the world bosses altogether (and offer the loot drop some other way) or move the bosses to a non-PvP area (protected world like Dromund Kaas for example). Make it so that a raid encounter doesn't involve dealing with gutless PvPers that don't really want to PvP (which seems to be exactly what the OP was doing) but instead see how much they can grief.

 

Like others have said, put an objective there, not a mean *** world boss that a ops group can easily wipe to because of a game mechanic that allows one or small group of players to grief a large group OVER AND OVER. Mixing PvE raid lvl content in a PvP area is just stupid. PvP should be PvP. A small group of players, or just one player, should not be able to kill a raid EVER. This would never happen in true PvP, but it does happen because it's PvEvP.

 

Lastly, if there is any PvE content in a PvP area, it should be limited to NPCs that assist in defense only. Not a raid lvl NPC.

 

BW, get rid of the world bosses in PvP areas.

[mufutiz]

Is this story really true?

 

I mean sadly, it would not surprise me much but if there really is nothing else to it other than was written in the opening post, that's still very sad...

[mufutiz]

"Open world" PvP is one thing.......but denying another group of players access to content is another....

 

yeah, it's called open pvp - with consequences.

 

I mean I like to harrass people sometimes. I have fond memories of a group of people in another game who tried to start a quest that required them to trigger a npc spawn while standing in a cave and I just waited down the road in stealth and kept tagging the npc they were waiting for to kill, then vanished before they could kill me :-)

 

was great fun for almost an hour before a GM froze me in place so they could finish the quest lol.

I accepted it though because that truly was griefing, I would have stood no chance disturbing them during the quest in proper combat.

 

 

However what the thread starter wrote is exactly what pvp servers are aboutl. You can deny another player access to all kinds of content, just camp near his quest giver. How is that different than denying an entire group a boss kill, which is completely optional anyway?

 

 

World bosses on pvp servers are common in other games as well. I never heard it was considered griefing to disturb a raid.

 

There is already no real world pvp in this game and when it does happen it is considered griefing? That's weaksauce.

Edited February 19, 2012 by mufutiz

[Vrak]

As a pvp player I would happily sacrifice a generic pve encounter for the opportunity to participate in a raid vs raid pvp encounter. Hell, I wish that MMORPGs had a much larger pvp focus than they currently do; most forms are organic world pvp are cool with me.

 

Let’s say that I was amongst the group of players who were being denied the ability to kill that world boss. I rolled on a pvp server for a reason; so what if I am on the losing side? It’s just a world boss and if the enemy kill it, it will re-spawn and I can just do it later. If they don’t, well…same outcome! The boss is not going anywhere.

 

Saying that, I can see both perspectives. I understand why some people would say that being denied something tangible by the opposing faction is “harassment, abusive” etc. I do not necessarily agree with this however…it really does depend on the context.

 

Pvp servers are there for a reason; dynamic open world pvp is supposed to occur. If you cannot defend yourselves, so be it. As pvp players you should still be having fun. If you would rather pve than pvp then perhaps a pvp server is not for you.

 

When you look at the situation depicted in the op it is very easy to make a compelling case for both perspectives. For example I would class it as abuse if it were an individual repeatedly denying another individual a quest mob, but when you scale it up into a fully-fledged group pvp encounter the dynamic changes, along with my perspective. It is no longer one player targeting another with the sole intent of harassment; it is now a group of players attempting to create a pvp encounter with their enemy faction. You could say that nothing has changed, and that the amount of people involved is irrelevant; you could probably argue a case for that, but I would still disagree. It’s a pvp server. Part of the point is to be able to create world pvp situations. When you are specifically targeting an individual you are straying too far from this concept, but in a group situation, not so much.

 

I definitely do not agree with legitimate abuse. In other games (I did not come across much world pvp in swtor throughout my levelling process) I will never kill the same person more than twice, and I will usually only kill them once; I will defend myself if they attempt to exact revenge however. I generally will not kill lower level players. I will also wait for players to regain their hp and mana etc. Do you see how I am against abuse, yet in favour of the pvp situation depicted in the op? It’s really not so back and white.

 

Bottom line: This situation is both right and wrong depending on the perspective, so in order to find the correct “official” stance that should be taken, you need to look at the hard facts; the rules pertaining to harassment, and the pvp rule-set. If there is no official indication that this kind of action is against the rules, then in reality a GM shouldn’t be able to get you to stop you, or even warn you, however that is just on paper; in reality we all know that if enough people from the “victimised” group contact a GM, no matter the rules, he/she will likely intervene anyway, which is a real shame. Saying that, if it is indeed against the rules there is not much that can be done about it.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Vrak

[Caeelar]

If they didn't want to get pwned while doing PVE content, they shouldn't have rolled up on a PVP server.

[Zekeiele]

Of course fighting over a world boss is fine that's not what happened here (if it happened) they just ****ed it up with no intention of killing the boss a group of 4/5 players maybe even less could screw up that fight for hours if they wanted to...same type of mentality that has a 50 BM camping tatioone med centers spawn killing newbs..it's not really PVP since nothing is gained by the "aggressor" other than some pathetic feeling of satisfaction by ruining someone else's experience.

 

Nothing more enjoyable then greifing a greifer I will spend hours chasing them around unfortunatly they generally can't take what they dish out and log after 15 minutes .

[mufutiz]

it's not really PVP since nothing is gained by the "aggressor" other than some pathetic feeling of satisfaction by ruining someone else's experience.

 

Nothing more enjoyable then greifing a greifer I will spend hours chasing them around unfortunatly they generally can't take what they dish out and log after 15 minutes .

 

It's TOTALLY PvP.

 

the only thing that is not PvP is the republic carebears running crying to mommy and getting the group of "griefers" the warning.

 

This is exactly the kind of people pve and rp servers are there for. I will never understand why they keep rolling on pvp servers and get all butthurt when pvp happens.

[Zekeiele]

It's TOTALLY PvP.

 

the only thing that is not PvP is the republic carebears running crying to mommy and getting the group of "griefers" the warning.

 

This is exactly the kind of people pve and rp servers are there for. I will never understand why they keep rolling on pvp servers and get all butthurt when pvp happens.

That's we're you and I differ...when I PVP I like it to be competitive I'll never go out of my way to find someone I KNOW I can slaughter especially in a game That I can't even loot your corpse or take your money...what's the point of purposely going to a planet that I know Is full of low levels that I can 1 or 2 shot.. you have to be *********** kidding me...those types of "PVPers" are a bad joke..but boy are they fun to kill ..so I do thank them for that.

 

PS

 

I don't need a GM to help me handle my business never have and never will

Edited February 19, 2012 by Zekeiele

[mufutiz]

Oh don't get me wrong. I enjoy competetive PvP. I also enjoy some slight harrassment at times though, I just take pleasure in all kinds of pranks. And what better way to start off some decent open pvp than to make your enemy REALLY angry and call for a lot of help?

 

I don't need a GM to help me handle my business never have and never will

 

 

Exactly what those guys should have done. According to that guy, only a few imps stayed in the end and harrassed the entire raid while being heavily outnumbered.

 

the Republic guys were clearly weak in the force. I hope they did not manage to kill the boss and if they did I hope the drops were crap or some a-hole ninja rolled on everything

Edited February 19, 2012 by mufutiz

[Zekeiele]

Oh don't get me wrong. I enjoy competetive PvP. I also enjoy some slight harrassment at times though, I just take pleasure in all kinds of pranks. And what better way to start off some decent open pvp than to make your enemy REALLY angry and call for a lot of help?

 

 

 

 

Exactly what those guys should have done. According to that guy, only a few imps stayed in the end and harrassed the entire raid while being heavily outnumbered.

 

the Republic guys were clearly weak in the force. I hope they did not manage to kill the boss and if they did I hope the drops were crap or some a-hole ninja rolled on everything

I agree they should have dropped them and then spawn camped the med center with enough players to keep them in check once it got to that level...still not something I would enjoy being a part of other than MAYBE doing it once.