"True Neutral"?

[ozirizo]

1) Is it possible to be totally grey/true neutral in the game? Does the game recognize this at all?

 

 

2) Canon-wise, was there ever a true Neutral Jedi/Sith?

 

 

Just curious. It got me thinking because I plan on a Sith Warrior as my first character but, knowing me, I usually make decisions based on my own preference and I tend to end up being very Neutral in games that actually have a scale like that (D&D games come to mind).

 

Thanks!

-Lin

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi

 

The term Gray Jedi, or Gray, had two meanings. First, it was used by Jedi and Sith to describe Force-users who walked the line between the light and dark sides of the Force without surrendering to the dark side, and second, it described Jedi who distanced themselves from the Jedi High Council and operated outside the strictures of the Jedi Code.

 

Yes, there are neutral characters on SW. Qui Gon Jin is a nice example of a Gray Jedi.

[Noelemahc]

The problem isn't just with the absence of Grey gear or proper recognition that there are alternatives to the True Sith's "SITH SLASH!" or the Jedi Order's "TURN THE OTHER CHEEK UNTIL IT IS TOO LATE TO PREVENT SOMETHING HORRIBLE", both of which are ridiculously bull-headed in the narrow canon*. You have to remember that there are also Dark Jedi, which are not really Sith as they're simply Jedi who have fallen to the Dark Side, but not embraced the Sith religion -- correct me if I'm wrong, but Jerec and his cronies from Dark Forces II are the closest, simplest go-to example you can use (plus, he's the only Dark Miraluka I know of, extra points!). And then there are the people who don't care about the politics at all, because when you throw religion and insanity out the window the issue of the "lure of the Dark Side" becomes mostly philosophic in nature. KotORII really needs more recognition for pointing out in meticulous detail how broken the logic of both the Jedi and the Sith (both Revan's Fake ones and the True Proper ones) is. Atris is a textbook example of how you can fall from the Light without actually committing lots of significantly Dark actions with your own hands.

 

The problem is with how black and white the definition for "good" and "evil" acts is, and how unrelated it is with the "light" and "dark" actions. A significant amount of actions in the game are rewarded idiosyncratically, f.e. for the Trooper story, giving stolen medicine back to the military hospital to help the wounded soldiers is a Dark action. Yes, Republic soldiers, Republic doctors, Republic medicine that was STOLEN from said hospital. The Light action it is opposed to is letting the thief who stole them go scot free to give it out to war refugees. Now, who can see a problem with this? Yes, broad strokes.

 

I admit, crafting a story for what is essentially eight multi-directional plotlines is complicated, but half-measures are a bad thing also. There are a lot of Light actions which start out as logically Light ones, but then veer off into thick-headed pants-on-head stupidity such as the above example. You EITHER give the medicine to refugees AND let the thief go, OR you let the thief go AND give all the medicine to the hospital it was stolen from. You cannot punish the thief in any way (other than roughing her up earlier in the quest for being obstinate), you cannot split the medicine halfway and you cannot tell the hospital "hey, sharing is caring". A similar quest later on LETS you do that, so it's not like BioWare scriptwriters are all heartless idealists. The problem is that there is still railroading on top of the railroading we're fighting about in this here thread. This "you're with us or against us" is what killed the Jedi several times over and the True Sith, after all.

 

So yeah, forgive me if I subscribe to the Church of Revanism. I still see his story as how Dark methods can and should be used to achieve Light goals -- most of the atrocities his Fake Sith do (and are accused of doing off-screen) have been done by Malak. The sheer bone-headedness of Jedi propaganda is what's losing their students to the Marginally Dark Side wherein they are twisted by the power and then fall to the proper Dark Dark Side (see Bandon, Dustil et al.). There are NO True Sith in the original KotORs, and the only proper follower of the religion is Traya, as Revan and all who followed him took the mantle on for PR purposes, and the KotOR2 guys are simply out to wreak havoc, they're not in the ideological game at all.

 

 

Back to topic at hand: Grey Gear is something we should have, though I suggest it should not appear until after, say, Level 30, to show your actual commitment to Neutrality (and reward those that stick to it), or, say, until after your combined LS/DS score is over niiiine thousaaaaand (or more, this is just an example). It should also be slightly cooler than Dark or Light because it is not constrained by having to be Black-and-Red-and-Spiky or White-and-Beige-and-a-Hand-Me-Down, if not in stats then at least in looks.

 

_________________

* - Obi-Wan obviously enjoys slaying the beasts in the Geonosis Arena. He has his Dark Side face on when the sabers down the big praying mantis thing, I drek you not.

Also, Yoda has it going good when he (and others) arbitrarily decide that Anakin's slaying of the Tusken Raider camp is a Dark act, and even feels it through the Force, despite the fact that it is a significantly more minor ripple than the ones Sidious is making MUCH CLOSER TO HIM. Nobody, NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON stops to consider that for the next several cycles, Anakin has saved countless lives and welfare of moisture farmers in the region from, at best, being shot for sport, and, at worst, being driven away as a slave.

In fact, if you stop and think about it, Anakin's fall to the Dark Side was entirely a failure to educate and monitor him properly which, again, underscores how rotten the whole system was by that point.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Noelemahc

[ricofico]

Reminds me of this: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/Jedi_of_Night777/force_alignment_by_cptmeatman-d2e34lv.jpg

 

Dude you are awesome! Saved the link!

[ricofico]

Eh no?

Insane is to kill everything in your way, or hug everything...

Neutral is what most people really are, making sometimes dark and sometimes light choices.

 

I have not tried to balance points at all, just making choices based on the situation, and guess what, currently I am at almost perfect balance, 1400 Light and 1450 Dark.

 

Me too, I"m balance. Shows alot about myself tbh I didnt otherwise think about.

[LadyKoketsu]

My sith juggernaught follows the path of honor, and tries to put the "greater good" of the empire before personal desires. This has led to him being nuetral for the most part according to the light side/dark side scale.

 

I'm not trying to be nuetral on him out of some sense of need to uphold true nuetrality; The way my character acts is seen by the game as being a grey sith. It would be nice if I eventually got some higher level gear for nuetral characters.

[Fiachsidhe]

You're kind've ignoring what everyone's writing about what Grey Jedi are, aren't you?

 

Grey Jedi pretty much = rogue Jedi. It is not a 'lightside-darksider'. Arguing about what to call them is semantics; they've been called Grey Jedi in expanded material, not just the RPG, and, if I remember right, this includes KotOR 2 as well.

 

It's also listed as an entry in the http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Complete_Star_Wars_Encyclopedia

[Merced]

My nerdhood is offended, and incensed at some people's claim that "true fans of star wars" are not pursuing a middle path. Thats ridiculous.

 

I have always wished for a way to RP a force user who is neither light or dark. This is entirely possible from a role player perspective, but not a game mechanics one sadly. Wasn't it a rather famous and revered jedi who said "only a sith deals in absolutes?" Uhhhh, doesn't that alone invalidate peoples assertions that you must be good or you must be bad? Neutral can be described as self serving. As in your choices reflect your desires, and those desires can be for a positive thing or a negative one based on the context. That is neutrality. This aligns pretty well with even the most strict definition of "gray jedi." The biggest issue here is that there hasn't really been a "gray sith" in lore, and even if there were you same people would then argue that makes him a lightsider/jedi because hes a sith not attempting to rule the galaxy.

[kimmeh]

I've always interpreted neutral alignments to be instinctual reactions to situations or a way to help rationalize the actions of semi sentient beings (think along the lines of mother nature, animals etc).

 

The lean towards good or evil is a cognitive choice a player has. Going against making any rational descision, and basing actions on instinct could be construed as being neutral.

 

I think that is why Druids in d&d are predominantly neutral or true neutral. Not because they choose to balance their actions through conscious effort but rather they aim to act instinctively and in tune with Thier environment and surroundings.

 

I would not discount the idea of a grey Jedi though if you were to rp one it would definately be a challenge.

 

I would have thought revan was more chaotic good than evil. He acted for the benefit of others despite his actions leading to evil and devastating consequences. Hence he probably gave it alot of thought, which would go against my understanding of a neutral alignment.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Tl;dr

 

My opinion is neutral alignment is like mother nature. No real ryme or reason for her actions she just does things.

 

Because of this I don't personally think revan was of neutral alignment based on the fact he made a conscious descision to do the thngs he did. ( kinda think he was more chaotic good).

[REBELMUSIC]

Honestly, it'd be nice to have additional dialogue options but I doubt they'd re-do all the characters missions and re-record dialogue for a neutral alignment.

 

So I'm thinking to be Neutral you just have to had made varying choices that evened out your Light/Dark.

 

But if what's been said is true, and they plan on recognizing and adding a Neutral element, who knows! I'm eager to find out.

 

the majority of the diolouge in the game is nuetral. red triangle means dark, blue is light, none is nuetral.

[Ludoscape]

I think the trouble some of you are having with the concept of a grey jedi is that you read this as a neutral approach...its more complicated than that.

 

Its not a dichotomy Good (jedi) and evil(Sith) its absence/supression of emotion on the jedi side, and the gorging of primal emotions on the sith side...

 

The grey path is not a midwaypoint between the too, its a jedi that embraces the good emotions and takes strength from them.

 

Think of it this way, a sith embraces negative emotions to feed their power, jedi try to be neutral in emotions so that the force flows freely through them, grey jedi explore the opposite spectrum of emotions, the positive ones and gain strength from them.

 

Literally a grey jedi explores areas neither sith nor jedi do...its not a mix, its something apart

 

A broader spectrum of the force, focusing mostly on an area neither jedi nor sith use, some grey jedi do explore a part of the dark side, but not all do.

 

Some will say that I describe a rogue jedi not a grey jedi... They are the same thing as far as the jedi order is, both mean a jedi that does not obey the rules of the order.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Ludoscape

[Colyer]

1) Yes, it's possible. No, it doesn't seem the game recognizes it.

 

 

2) That is a strong opinion question that people can debate to death. I think the overwhelming majority believe that Neutral Force Users are possible, but a lot of the fiction contradicts this. Jacen Solo, for instance shows the fall of a Jedi who believes in Potentium (that the Force is a single entity with no light or dark side). Any Force User who flirts with the Dark Side will fall. And no, Jolee Bindo was only neutral for the sake of game mechanics. He was entirely a Light sided Jedi, just jaded and bitter.

[Ahl-Vinn]

Most gear in the game is not alignment-specific; if you want to RP someone who lives in a galaxy at war and doesn't care about it in any way whatsoever, this non-specialized gear is for you.

 

[Yescek]

To be honest, everyone's arguments about this makes me think that tying gear to that meter was a terrible idea.

 

Color crystals should be 100% open to all alignments. Excellent example of a mega-darksider using what is under the current system only available to anyone grey or light would be Darth Krayt. He was the One Sith equivalent of the current Emperor and after his rebirth on Korriban he used both a red and a GREEN lightsaber. So yeah, tying color to alignment is stupid IMO. Then again, the devs did state that they want someone to be recognizable as one side or the other from a distance.

 

Anyone using the logic that all Imperials are DS regardless of choice and all Republic are LS regardless of choice should then support that only DS gear should be offered to Imperials and only LS gear should be offered to Republic players, with the caveat that the alignment restrictions be lifted. To be honest, I think alignment restrictions should be lifted anyways. Do that and you don't have to worry about adding Grey/Neutral gear and balancing it because then it won't matter and everyone will have free and open access to the CURRENT offerings.

 

A few thoughts is all.

[Fiachsidhe]

I think the trouble some of you are having with the concept of a grey jedi is that you read this as a neutral approach...its more complicated than that.

 

Its not a dichotomy Good (jedi) and evil(Sith) its absence/supression of emotion on the jedi side, and the gorging of primal emotions on the sith side...

 

The grey path is not a midwaypoint between the too, its a jedi that embraces the good emotions and takes strength from them.

 

Think of it this way, a sith embraces negative emotions to feed their power, jedi try to be neutral in emotions so that the force flows freely through them, grey jedi explore the opposite spectrum of emotions, the positive ones and gain strength from them.

 

Literally a grey jedi explores areas neither sith nor jedi do...its not a mix, its something apart

 

A broader spectrum of the force, focusing mostly on an area neither jedi nor sith use, some grey jedi do explore a part of the dark side, but not all do.

 

Some will say that I describe a rogue jedi not a grey jedi... They are the same thing as far as the jedi order is, both mean a jedi that does not obey the rules of the order.

 

EXACTLY. People here are confusing gray jedi, with neutral jedi. Gray jedi are jedi. They follow the light side of the force. They simply don't always follow the exact code of the jedi council. They do things that are less than honorable, but not inherently evil.

 

Fact is, most of the things our Jedi characters do are the actions of a gray jedi. It only seems lop sided because the only points awarded are light and dark. But those are the only two sides of the force. There is no "grey side".

 

Gray jedi are light side jedi, that may brake a few social rules to serve the greater good.

 

Jolee Bindo is only neutral because he ran away into self imposed exile and didn't interact with anyone, which some may argue, is a dark side trait, to avoid actively striving to make amends for the damage he caused. It's easy to remain "true neutral" when you never have to make those choices.

[Ludoscape]

Hello fellow meatbags,

 

I just read this and i think it is relevant:

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force

 

Even the concept of the force has several interpretations, the one most popular is the light-dark side version but in cannon there are views of it that are quite interesting.

 

Some view the force as a force that is beyond concepts of good and evil, and thus no dark or light side to it.

 

Some see the force as entirely benevolent, the darkness coming from within the individual.

 

Some see it as a tainted force, the light being that of the individual

 

Some see it as something beyond light and dark and see it as a full rainbow of the force

 

...so there are many interpretations to it.

 

I expect most will only accept the version of the movies ( its your right), but i myself find the idea of the force as something so 'big' that no order has been able to trully describe it more interesting.

 

I see both jedi and sith as extremist that oversimplify things....but thats me RPing i guess.

 

So we have sith, jedi, dark jedi, grey jedi....what else is there? Grey sith?

 

Maybe the mistake is trying to define anything outside jedi or sith descriptions as a tainted version of one of the two...feels to me like the lore needs a word similar to ronin ( warrior without a lord/ order), and no, rogue jedi shouldnt count...just my opinion

Edited December 25, 2011 by Ludoscape

[tlang]

Why must the argument be either light, dark, or neither? What about both? Couldn't you say that for Revan (reborn)??

[Ludoscape]

Why must the argument be either light, dark, or neither? What about both? Couldn't you say that for Revan (reborn)??

 

Well, to be precise Revan has known dark and light, but Revan reborn ( in canon) does not use the dark side...he just has a better understanding of the force because of his experience of both...he fits perfectly with the definition i provided of grey jedi, he uses emotions/passion at times, but the positive ones (love,etc.)...

 

This is what the new SWTOR: Revan novel shows ( or what i undetstood )

 

Im not far enough in the game to know the full revanite's order vision of Revans path, but i trust the novel more.

[DISPNecroticX]

i dont know how people find the concept so difficult. u can be a force user who doesnt follow the jedi code but isnt a sith either. You could also be someone who is sith who hates jedi but has morals.

[jasoncollins]

when i play the game i make choices i would in realife so i always end up pretty balanced in netrual area i end up not having any relics equipped or special colored crystals but makes up for it in fun

[Gelious]

The problem is, 'neutral' in-game isn't neutral. It's insane, psychotic. Schizophrenic.

 

One moment you're petting kittens, then you're eating them for breakfast without remorse, then five minutes later breaking down in tears. You're trying to arbitrarily balance 'points' in some eternal equation, which ends up meaning you have no principles, no ethics or morals, and you wind up utterly and completely inconsistent.

What? I cant yet speak for a Jedi, but as a man, who the whole game spent as Neutral Sith Warrior, i can assure everyone, that its very reasoable behavior. I spared NPC and enemy commanders when I could use them (like 2 Generals from Chapter 2, or General from Chapter 1), or when killing them is outright pointless evil (Diplomates families on NS. refugees ship on Taris etc). I killed every normal Republic soldier and practically ever Jedi I couldnt capture since they are enemies od the Empire\Sith.

I finished my class story yesterday. Still Neutral.

As far as recognition goes.. there are no any. Except when you first meet Jaesa, she see both dark and light in you and admits that she can't see your true nature. Amazing:)

I still got "Your intentions are not knowable" when I click on my LS Jaesa (though she sees me as light Sith)

[wisegreenbean]

I played a few hours of consular before I had to stop. I figured, I'm playing a compassionate and self-sacrificing jedi who does his best to help everyone and make everyone happy. Obviously I'm getting straight light side by the natural choices of the character. Right? Nope. I had perfect 150/150, for doing things such as protecting a couple of young lovers from persecution and assuring a son that justice had been done upon his father's murderers. It literally made me so angry at the idiocy of the system that I said, '**** force-users, I'm going smuggler'. Which also has stupid choices that don't make sense relative to right and wrong, but fewer. Point being. Neutrality is not stupid. Neutrality is sane. Half the time jedi are wildly oppressive or impractical, half the time the sith are being psychotic nuts who like stabbing things. To go one's own way, to remain neutral and find the best path independent of dogma, is clearly the best choice. The greatest irony of the jedi order is that for all their talk of fairness, they have so thoroughly constrained themselves with absolutes, they cannot always do what is right.

[Tyestor]

Exactly!

 

Imagine a grey sentinel or maurader with a red and a blue saber in his hands... only possible to the grey jedi who has neither achieved Dark I or Light I.

 

I'm a Dark V Sith Marauder and I remember using a Red mainhand and Blue offhand...<_<

 

The greatest irony of the jedi order is that for all their talk of fairness, they have so thoroughly constrained themselves with absolutes, they cannot always do what is right.

 

Which the Sith are only too happy to point out, constantly

Edited January 22, 2012 by Tyestor

[fettpett]

I think the closest you'll find to a truly neutral Jedi is Jacen Solo, between Anakin's death and his fall to the Lumiya. He was lightside and moved to a moral grey area with his decisions but didn't fully go darkside till then. He searched and learned from other non-jedi force traditions.

 

one can argue that this was the beginning of his fall, but I think his true fall came the same as his Grandfathers, by trying to protect his family he went too far. I haven't read the Legacy books so I can't say for sure, but I read up to that point, and he was using both sides of the force.

 

I think the only way to stay neutral is to have a balance in their life's, with no close intimate connections that one can have threatened.

[varrangian]

One thing I haven't really seen mentioned in this thread is not only the fact that gear is a hindrance to trying to follow a "grey" path, but so too are companions, many companion will get negative points if you pick a path that they don't adhere to, these usually are not big hits to affection, but I've noticed that in trying to walk a more neutral path as a BH or a Sith Warrior my affection progression is seriously slowed down. That's all well and good aside from the fact that affection unlock new stories and so it is controls game play options for me.

[Preventer-Blaze]

My main consular follows what I believe to be "right", the truth is that he is more light oriented, but he has some ds points for following his own mind.

 

 

One thing I haven't really seen mentioned in this thread is not only the fact that gear is a hindrance to trying to follow a "grey" path, but so too are companions, many companion will get negative points if you pick a path that they don't adhere to, these usually are not big hits to affection, but I've noticed that in trying to walk a more neutral path as a BH or a Sith Warrior my affection progression is seriously slowed down. That's all well and good aside from the fact that affection unlock new stories and so it is controls game play options for me.

 

Money for gifts, my friend, money for gifts.

 

I play a Lightside SI, my first companion... I think he hates me...