bliapis Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Yesterday i got asked by my guild leader what days can i raid. After some easy going talk he announced to me that "incidently, you have to turn your Jug into a tank since Jugs dont do comperative dps compared to marauders or snipers or assasins". He was 100% sure we dont do competive dps and that would prove a problem to hard mode raiding and nightmarish. I never raided and frankly i cant compare DPS (alot of ppl bashing Jugs seems to be able to though), so whats the future of Jug DPS in the end-game? If thats the case and Jug does less dps, maybe something of a boost in damage to bring us on par with marauder and sniper? Edited February 17, 2012 by bliapis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Your guild leader is an imbecile. Vengeance scales amazingly. In Vigilance spec, single target, I'm pretty sure I outdamage my equally-geared Combat Sentinel guildie. We measured it on wandering 50 Champ mobs, a healer was helping us - and I was destroying them a little faster. Granted, no raid buffs\debuffs, but the overall picture is pretty clear. Another matter is Bloodlust - utility that Guards\Juggs don't have. But that's a separate thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bliapis Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 it sux because till combat log comes there is no way to really prove against his word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) it sux because till combat log comes there is no way to really prove against his word. Don't see a problem. Find a champ, get a healer to back you up and start hitting it. Kill it and divide its health by the number of seconds it took to kill it, or take a 3-minute cycle, divide health lost by 180 seconds, and you get a rough estimation of your DPS. Have your buddies do the same. If you're better, you're better. If they're better, then they're better. I think the results will be very close, provided the gear\skill levels are comparable. Edited February 17, 2012 by Helig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bliapis Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Don't see a problem. Find a champ, get a healer to back you up and start hitting it. Kill it and divide its health by the number of seconds it took to kill it, or take a 3-minute cycle, divide health lost by 180 seconds, and you get a rough estimation of your DPS. Have your buddies do the same. If you're better, you're better. If they're better, then they're better. I think the results will be very close, provided the gear\skill levels are comparable. good idea man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randytravis Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Luckly for me i don't have this issue as my officer is a mate but im dpsing as vengeance and im seeing no issues what so ever really. I out dps people in daily's all the time on illum as i always have threat and i seem to do more than enough in HM fp's (haven't started ops just yet so can't comment there). Thats mainly in pvp gear too. I think all tanking classes have a similar issue tbh. Powertech BH's do quite gd dmg but ive heard assains pve dmg isnt tht great so i bet they get asked to tank allot. Edited February 17, 2012 by Randytravis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisz_Rethon Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I would change guild if I were you. First of all DPS is not almighty in itself. It helps to be able to burn a boss down faster, but if you can't spot a lightning ball it doesn't matter if you're the dps god. Second your guild leader should make the best with your choice and not ask you to change to a spec that more suits his whims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meshade Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 erm EV, the council boss - find same HP mobs and see who kills them quicker - eays :> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacedemon Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Your guild leader is an imbecile. Vengeance scales amazingly. In Vigilance spec, single target, I'm pretty sure I outdamage my equally-geared Combat Sentinel guildie. We measured it on wandering 50 Champ mobs, a healer was helping us - and I was destroying them a little faster. Granted, no raid buffs\debuffs, but the overall picture is pretty clear. Another matter is Bloodlust - utility that Guards\Juggs don't have. But that's a separate thing. This, your GM is an absolute ******* of the first order, he is just being a sheep believe the complaints of people who can't play Jugg's. The only person in the raid who can kill thier mob in EV faster than me is a dps Sorc who is now healer spec'd (and still finishes faster than 75% of the raid on a dps mob). Also on your note about Snipers, the only person in the guild who really struggles with a dps mob is a sniper. Edited February 17, 2012 by Lacedemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) The game isn't that hard to be worried overmuch about a few DPS. Your guild leader is a jerk. Edited February 18, 2012 by Master-Nala Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastairz Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 erm EV, the council boss - find same HP mobs and see who kills them quicker - eays :> Exactly what I was thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlakrar Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I would change guild if I were you. That would be my advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlakrar Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 erm EV, the council boss - find same HP mobs and see who kills them quicker - eays :> B.E.A.Utiful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Sookie Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I do all raids on nightmare as a Rage Juggernaut. And yeah on council i kill my mob faster than snipers. So OP's raid leader can stuff it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwarzwald Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Your guild leader is a moron. We started EV HM in a group mostly wearing Champions PvP gear and had 3 melee DPS. Jug Tank, Assassin hybrid (pre-nerf), Operative and Jug Veng (me). We had some initial problems with enrage timers on the first boss, but was quickly solved once we just started to stay in during the aoe rocket phase. We've gone nearly 5/5 NM EV (lol soa mindtrap aggro drop) with a very heavy melee comp. It is definitely more difficult then stacking ranged, but its not impossible. And honestly, if you are bringing more then 2 people who do physical damage, then you are most likely gimping your raid DPS by not having one or two full stacks of sunders on the boss. When I raid my DPS spec is 2/32/7 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#1010MZIGMR0uddhRZG00M.1 I don't really know what my DPS actually is, but I can say that when dots are always up, its probably in the region of maybe 2500-3000 DPS. Shatter ticks for 300 (~500-600 w/ relics/adrenals) and can crit upwards to 700-800. I am sitting @ about 103% acc, ~1800 Str, 31% crit, 71% surge. tl;dr Veng Jugs are viable and can also offer clutch saves (like if your MT for some reason dies to something absurd, you can definitely hop into soresu, taunt and hold the boss until the MT is back on his feet). Also, abilities like intercede can allow you to stay in on Garj Pounces as long as possible. Edited February 17, 2012 by Schwarzwald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruntcruncher Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 In my guild we are just starting NM mode ops. I am a full columi (less the offhand cos it never drops and retarded system = it requires a token) geared veng spec Jug. We do not have a mara in our guild, were only 8 man raiding. My main competition for dps is a sniper. Her gear is equal to mine, slightly better actualy as she got the rekata boots and chest. When we do EV council on Nightmare we both take the maras (there the ones with highest hp). We should be taking the tanks but found it was better if we took out the maras instead. On the 3 occasions we have completed this event my jug finishes his mob first. Then I skip on over to one of our tanks and sit next to him until he gets his mob below 20% and fire vicous throw at his mob to help finish it before timer expires (you can only use one ability for one hit to help another player in this event, then you get a debuff and none of your hits will work). As somone already mentioned, as veng jug your dps is as good as anyone elses, what makes you a special snowflake is your stacks of sunders, dots (when you got to run from a boss your still doing dmg), and backup tank for when your real tanks have gone boom and your on last 10%. I don't even switch stance if that happens, just taunt and pop all def cd's and keep on trucking with the dps. Oh and your force leaps, with intercede just means your probably the one dps back on target first after a knockback. Your tank may have words with you about intercede though, yup gives him a bit more dmg reduction but drops his threat at same time. I have done FP's with a mara, he usualy finished silvers and golds of slightly ahead of me but on bosses I'd say we were even if the boss mechanics involved any knockbacks or running away from the boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPagano Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 The game isn't that hard to be worried overmuch about a few DPS. You guild leader is a jerk. This. This isn't WoW raiding. You don't need to be so anal about optimization. Frankly, if he's that concerned about optimizing everything, he might not have the faith in the members or himself to run raids with what is available. You may want to consider swapping guilds if you don't espouse this same attitude towards raiding. I raided seriously for over a year in vanilla wow. Server first clear of MC, BWL (33rd world wide), etc. I've seen the ugly side of this approach, and it just isn't necessary. Find a guild that let's you play the way you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanquind Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 This. This isn't WoW raiding. You don't need to be so anal about optimization. Frankly, if he's that concerned about optimizing everything, he might not have the faith in the members or himself to run raids with what is available. You may want to consider swapping guilds if you don't espouse this same attitude towards raiding. I raided seriously for over a year in vanilla wow. Server first clear of MC, BWL (33rd world wide), etc. I've seen the ugly side of this approach, and it just isn't necessary. Find a guild that let's you play the way you want. The only reason that people wanted to optimize in wow was because they wanted a boss to be as easy as possible. So they would rather take a dps doing 1k dps more (at 85) than one that does 1k less because he doesn't want to min/max and just have a character he likes. I think it's also the WoW mentality that this guild leader thinks juggs can't dps properly. He probably thinks 'jugg is meant for tanking. Tanks have poorer dps than pure dps classes. So juggs can't dps as good.' as that's how it's pretty much always been in wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creedon Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Personally i like tanking with my Jugg (minus the slight threat gen concern), but seeing that Juggs can still put out good damage compared to others, minus Sorcerers, is alil arrogant that any Guild Leader would tell you to go tank. Make your own decision, its your time you are paying for, it might be time to move on if he keeps up the tyrantical opinionated orders. You pay your time, not him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karniel Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Jugg dps is alright. Doing the council on NM with equal gear for dps on both my jugg and mara I find I can kill same council member faster with marauder by a noticeable margin. Thats not to say Jugg sucks for dps, Still pretty good. Could be Marauder "rotation" just suits my playstyle more. But at this point honestly with the content being so easy as is, there really isnt a reason to pick one dps over another, unless ranged has clear advantage over melee in a certain fight etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruckin Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I do all raids on nightmare as a Rage Juggernaut. And yeah on council i kill my mob faster than snipers. So OP's raid leader can stuff it. Council isnt a good choice to compare sniper to anything. The mobs knock back knocking the sniper out of cover. It interupts casts of stuff too. The real test is like others said high HP mobs that dont do lots of funky tricks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacedemon Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Council isnt a good choice to compare sniper to anything. The mobs knock back knocking the sniper out of cover. It interupts casts of stuff too. The real test is like others said high HP mobs that dont do lots of funky tricks. Yes that would be the fairer tests however most of the bosses in the current raid instances do a lot of KB's and or require a lot of movement; and so in many ways it is a more accurate display of dps in raid instances. Edited February 17, 2012 by Lacedemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracosz Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 As someone that's cleared everything on nightmare as a DPS jugg, your GM is full of ****. Leave that guild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eatZecaai Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yesterday i got asked by my guild leader what days can i raid. After some easy going talk he announced to me that "incidently, you have to turn your Jug into a tank since Jugs dont do comperative dps compared to marauders or snipers or assasins". Your guild leader is a moron who doesn't know what he's talking about. Tell him to recruit tanks if he needs tanks and make him stop trying to push you changing your spec just because he has no clue. If he sticks to his retarded story leave his guild, because they're bound to suck anyways with a leader like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtysolutions Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 After carefully read, and weighed every post in this thread Ive come to the conclusion that the accused (ur GM), indeed is guilty as charged. I deem that it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that hes guilty to (1)"elitistic e-peening" , (2)"Attempt to belittle underling" and (3)"arbitrarily stating of dps-capability of AC/spec without proper math" If there is no one who will speak for the accused, since said accused has not presented himself properly in court. I hereby judge him guilty to the crimes listed above. For his perpetrations I hereby sentence him to be drenched in tar and rolled in feathers! The court also deem him in violation with article #157 - "arbitrarily stating facts concerning dps without proper math". A vicious crime, that calls for more severe punishment. So by the power invested in me by myself and my other personalities, I also sentense him to incarceration on Elitist-Jerks, where he is to be flamed and grilled by their top-Mathematicians, for no less then 24 hours - STRAIGHT! If there are no further accusations this concludes this trial! *KA-CLUB* /Fistus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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