Palenen Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 It looks like all new MMO's that are hitting the market are all doomed to live short lives. What do you feel could change the tide? What would keep you captivated to swtor for the rest of your life? I don't mean things like fix bugs, dual spec, frame rate issues, add ons, a thousand more etc ... but what is the innovative touch that can give MMO a decade life spam. Just some examples: Should it become a true social network, creating a facebook environment inside swtor, allowing to do all the cool things you can do in facebook. or what about having your desktop incorporated inside swtor allowing you to browse, email, skype, etc ... do all the cool things you do on your computer but then inside the Galaxy ..... facebook is a disease. The mmo design which many love has been thrown out the door. The main feature of a mmorpg was to 'mimic' real life, to role play your character. This requires much in depth coding to make characters come to life. Tab to target and fire simply never was the priority focus. Class balancing vs's other classes was never really sought after because the characters were there to play the game, to work together for a goal. just a opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodanth_The_Wise Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Titan could be a massive, EPIC, complete fail, and it would still have at least 4m subscribers based on the loyalists alone. Same with SWTOR. Many of the people who are not star wars fans have left due to the bugs. That's not to say all have however, but mainly I feel most of the un-subbers are people who aren't SW fans through and through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivethed Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 If you love or hate World of Warcraft one must admit that the features that game brings to the MMO field has set a precedent that any newer MMO MUST include. Interactive enviroments such as drivable vehicles ( in missions / quests / pvp etc), phasing, guild banks, customizable UI etc etc. But unfortunetly even that game, with all its bells and whistles, wasnt enough to keep me. I played since release till Jan 2011. The developers at Blizzard are talented, But I feel they were tearing the game in two; one half becoming a console game and the other half catering to the Uber Goober crowd that was upset because The Great Unwashed had the nerve to even attempt to play all the content ( like raids...even though TGW pays the same fees per month.) I have played Rift recently and yesssss, it was a "WoW clone" but with so many features in one game ( ie WoW) would not every new MMO be one? Rift's forums were almost word for word the same as the tripe I read here.. Unbalanced PvP! cancelling! Bugs! Raids to easy! Raids to hard! Getting gear to easy! Getting gear to hard! etc If we, as a community, could just take a breath, let the devs of a particular game work out where they want it to go, and decide when it GETS there, the genre would be more open to new developers. As it stands, any new developer is terrified to throw their new baby into the ring to get mauled by World of Warcraft. Again. Riv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otakuon Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) If you love or hate World of Warcraft one must admit that the features that game brings to the MMO field has set a precedent that any newer MMO MUST include. Interactive enviroments such as drivable vehicles ( in missions / quests / pvp etc), phasing, guild banks, customizable UI etc etc. But unfortunetly even that game, with all its bells and whistles, wasnt enough to keep me. I played since release till Jan 2011. The developers at Blizzard are talented, But I feel they were tearing the game in two; one half becoming a console game and the other half catering to the Uber Goober crowd that was upset because The Great Unwashed had the nerve to even attempt to play all the content ( like raids...even though TGW pays the same fees per month.) I have played Rift recently and yesssss, it was a "WoW clone" but with so many features in one game ( ie WoW) would not every new MMO be one? Rift's forums were almost word for word the same as the tripe I read here.. Unbalanced PvP! cancelling! Bugs! Raids to easy! Raids to hard! Getting gear to easy! Getting gear to hard! etc If we, as a community, could just take a breath, let the devs of a particular game work out where they want it to go, and decide when it GETS there, the genre would be more open to new developers. As it stands, any new developer is terrified to throw their new baby into the ring to get mauled by World of Warcraft. Again. Riv This is pretty close to my whole sentiment on the situation. The thing is, I have been involved in the launch of just about every major subscription based MMO for the past 10 years. In recent years, I have noticed this shift where, even though a technically well made MMO is released, players will just bash it to oblivion because it does not fulfill all of their expectations. I mean, Rift is a prime example. Sure, it may be a WoW clone, but it is a significant improvement over what WoW had to offer. And, once again, I feel the same way with TOR. It might not be a revolution of the traditional MMO, but it is at least an evolution. And quite frankly, I don't think I would want an MMO that is radically different then what has come before because it makes it easier to pick up and understand the basics and focus more on what makes the game different. So, after seeing so many MMOs over the past few years unfairly abandoned by the MMO community before they even had a chance to shine, I really just want to put my foot down and make a stand and say "Hey, look, if you want a MMO to get better and include all those missing features/content that you complain about, why not support the game and provide constructive feedback to the devs instead of just giving up so easily?" Edited February 16, 2012 by otakuon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psiwolf Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 If we, as a community, could just take a breath, let the devs of a particular game work out where they want it to go, and decide when it GETS there, the genre would be more open to new developers. As it stands, any new developer is terrified to throw their new baby into the ring to get mauled by World of Warcraft. Again. Riv This would be fine if Bioware at least debugged the game sufficiently as to not make SWTOR feel like a pay to play beta test of SWTOR. I think people were much more willing to give Bioware a chance at an mmo than some other no name developer due to Baldur's gate, Kotor, and all those other amazing games they've created in the past. They have pedigree. However, they just lost a ton of cache with a lot of people due to their poorly timed SWTOR release. Game bugs, especially really LARGE ones, that were known pre-launch should not require the community to "just take a breath" while the devs work it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phixler Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 The biggest problem is that they are unfinished. Companies force their teams to push them out of the door in an unfinished state and this is what we get. Warhammer is actually amazing now, unfortunately it's how many years later? Not to mention completely dead. If it was like this at release that game would have rocked. Same with AoC, it's fun now but it's dead. Too little, too late. Sadly SWTOR is suffering the same fate. In about 1 year it's going to be laughed at in the same group as war, aio, aoc, etc. The only game that has come out that I see to be a success is Rift. I don't play it because it's a little to PVE focused for me, but it is a very successful MMO and has a solid playerbase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otakuon Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) The biggest problem is that they are unfinished. Ha...I wish there was an archive of the old forums so I could link all the threads over the past few years from gamers complaining that TOR was taking TOO long to develop and that they would rather have BW release a partial product and improve it over time post-lauch since it is an MMO after all. If I could, the number of links would run off the page. Apparently, BioWare can never win.... Edited February 17, 2012 by otakuon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthKhaos Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 So, after seeing so many MMOs over the past few years unfairly abandoned by the MMO community before they even had a chance to shine, I really just want to put my foot down and make a stand and say "Hey, look, if you want a MMO to get better and include all those missing features/content that you complain about, why not support the game and provide constructive feedback to the devs instead of just giving up so easily?" Can I get an AMEN! This would be fine if Bioware at least debugged the game sufficiently as to not make SWTOR feel like a pay to play beta test of SWTOR. I think people were much more willing to give Bioware a chance at an mmo than some other no name developer due to Baldur's gate, Kotor, and all those other amazing games they've created in the past. They have pedigree. However, they just lost a ton of cache with a lot of people due to their poorly timed SWTOR release. Game bugs, especially really LARGE ones, that were known pre-launch should not require the community to "just take a breath" while the devs work it out. Dude you've never played a launch MMO before I take it. Trust me when I say you don't know what playing to play a beta means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordelia Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 A single shard for all players, a sandbox similar to EVE Online with a myriad of ingame activities, massive player driven economy, wars over economic resources and a combat system similar to console fighting games. That would keep me busy for a very very long time. This would be great especially if space and ground were combined. Imagine we could fight for control of planets in space battles and then on the ground. I know EVE is trying something similar with DUST 514 but I think that will be too console oriented for me. I'd like in the future to see games successfully integrate ground/space but it would be a huge undertaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notebene Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I don't like reality shows. It would be kinda cool if I could just write a letter declaring that they are dead or dying because I don't care for them. Sadly, they keep making them and folks keep watching them. I think we need a return to scripted television with higher production costs and niche audiences! *crickets* Guess the gaming industry has the same problem. How about some new i[most common anatomical structure, or a flapular valve, that normally maintains constriction of a natural body passage or orifice and which relaxes as required by normal physiological functioning] games! For small screens with no bass! *yaaayyy!* "el los :rolleyes:" On a side note, how about some more Stargate? "Make it so!" I mean, "Indeed!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippon Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) ~~ A lot of the big MMO's that have came out lately flat out need more things to do than dailies and a PvE group grind. In-depth crafting and resource gathering, collections, housing, farming, non-combat activities and professions. I think a lot of people want to have more of an impact on the game world and not just 'play through it". Basically keep the themepark stuff of quests and instances and what have you, but make a lot of other activities for people to really get into. It's probably the biggest problem ToR is going to have in the long run. Problem is, no big money companies are willing to make a game like that. Some indie companies try, but lack the resources to make it polished and widely appealing. ~~ This.... Until MMO's get back to what made Original MMO's so good, then they will continue to have massive 6 months bursts then die a death.....Its like there marketing departments don't see where the £$€ is.... Theme-park is good, its a stable way to level.....But you can not expect people to just grind and grind and grind at End Game.. This game is crying out for a social system, maybe similar to SWG's entertainer's, Player housing, Space combat, player access to ships in flight (why cant i take my friends ??), A good crafting system...Guild Systems'...where is it ???? Im not in a a guild, or a leader of one.....Im just a player with a TAG above my head, have no meeting place, have no guild bank, Nothing....???? To many MMO's cater to the PVP crowd these day's ( my class doesn't work in PVP OMG OMG....Nerf bat comes out ) and lets be fair this crowd will jump ship at the slightest hint of a better MMO... Developers need to realize who there CONTINUED £10 a month subscriber's are......Its the crafter's, the players who will sit in there houses decorating and making things, Its the social players who will log a toon into a cantina 12 hours a day to buff people. Its a PVP system that involves EVERYBODY in one way or another. The Grind works in the short term until people are fed up, and it doesn't take long for most to get there End Game Gear in 90% of MMO's these days.....Result......Dead server's. Until developer's add some engaging SandBox elements then this game is ultimately doomed to follow AOC, LOTRO, AION and even WOW.......Full of people waiting for the next best thing, Or even worse and going F2P. It's so simple and obvious to see just by bypassing all the PVP crap that clutter's the forums, that does nothing but waste dev time on something that WILL NOT KEEP PEOPLE IN THIS GAME, and look/listen to the players that really know, and have brilliant ideas for this game. Edited February 17, 2012 by Nippon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordelia Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 This.... Until MMO's get back to what made Original MMO's so good, then they will continue to have massive 6 months bursts then die a death.....Its like there marketing departments don't see where the £$€ is.... Theme-park is good, its a stable way to level.....But you can not expect people to just grind and grind and grind at End Game.. This game is crying out for a social system, maybe similar to SWG's entertainer's, Player housing, Space combat, player access to ships in flight (why cant i take my friends ??), A good crafting system...Guild Systems'...where is it ???? Im not in a a guild, or a leader of one.....Im just a player with a TAG above my head, have no meeting place, have no guild bank, Nothing....???? To many MMO's cater to the PVP crowd these day's ( my class doesn't work in PVP OMG OMG....Nerf bat comes out ) and lets be fair this crowd will jump ship at the slightest hint of a better MMO... Developers need to realize who there CONTINUED £10 a month subscriber's are......Its the crafter's, the players who will sit in there houses decorating and making things, Its the social players who will log a toon into a cantina 12 hours a day to buff people. Its a PVP system that involves EVERYBODY in one way or another. The Grind works in the short term until people are fed up, and it doesn't take long for most to get there End Game Gear in 90% of MMO's these days.....Result......Dead server's. Until developer's add some engaging SandBox elements then this game is ultimately doomed to follow AOC, LOTRO, AION and even WOW.......Full of people waiting for the next best thing. It's so simple and obvious to see just by bypassing all the PVP crap that clutter's the forums and look at the players that really know, and have brilliant ideas for this game. I couldn't agree more. You sum up nicely, exactly everything I would like to see in a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromiie Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 This.... Until MMO's get back to what made Original MMO's so good, then they will continue to have massive 6 months bursts then die a death.....Its like there marketing departments don't see where the £$€ is.... Theme-park is good, its a stable way to level.....But you can not expect people to just grind and grind and grind at End Game.. This game is crying out for a social system, maybe similar to SWG's entertainer's, Player housing, Space combat, player access to ships in flight (why cant i take my friends ??), A good crafting system...Guild Systems'...where is it ???? Im not in a a guild, or a leader of one.....Im just a player with a TAG above my head, have no meeting place, have no guild bank, Nothing....???? To many MMO's cater to the PVP crowd these day's ( my class doesn't work in PVP OMG OMG....Nerf bat comes out ) and lets be fair this crowd will jump ship at the slightest hint of a better MMO... Developers need to realize who there CONTINUED £10 a month subscriber's are......Its the crafter's, the players who will sit in there houses decorating and making things, Its the social players who will log a toon into a cantina 12 hours a day to buff people. Its a PVP system that involves EVERYBODY in one way or another. The Grind works in the short term until people are fed up, and it doesn't take long for most to get there End Game Gear in 90% of MMO's these days.....Result......Dead server's. Until developer's add some engaging SandBox elements then this game is ultimately doomed to follow AOC, LOTRO, AION and even WOW.......Full of people waiting for the next best thing, Or even worse and going F2P. It's so simple and obvious to see just by bypassing all the PVP crap that clutter's the forums, that does nothing but waste dev time on something that WILL NOT KEEP PEOPLE IN THIS GAME, and look/listen to the players that really know, and have brilliant ideas for this game. . But new MMOs coming out this year are trying something different. Studios know obviously they can't compete with WoW now so they have to try something different. Tera has it's real time combat system, Guild Wars 2 has it's dynamic combat, events huge pvp (1200 players omg), no trinity and Secret world has no classes (don't know much about Secret World) it's all different from WoW. TOR however only has "story" and it's not even great. Yea some are good but the Consular, Knight are terrible imo and what about when the story is over? What then? Btw Archeage is a Korean sandbox MMO but it will be westernized and frankly the way it looks now is amazing. Loving the Cryengine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeTwo Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 It looks like all new MMO's that are hitting the market are all doomed to live short lives. What do you feel could change the tide? What would keep you captivated to swtor for the rest of your life? ..... I really liked this question, and have put some thought into what it would take to truly make a captivating MMO. In Extra Credit (a web series formerly on The Escapist, currently hosted on Penny Arcade) they predicted the future of MMOs was to move away from the fighting/RPG style and into other genres, because no one will ever be able to do what WoW does better than they do. And it's actually happening. Many current and soon-to-be released FPSes have started to incorporate successful MMO devices in their games (My personal favorite example being Syndicate. The demo is available for XBox and PS3). But this does NOT mean that all MMORPGs are doomed to fail, just that (as 90% of these forum posts will reinforce) more needs to be done to get away from what we've grown accustomed to over the years. Without further ado, my thoughts: Get rid of locked in factions - I honestly don't know why they still exist. They're rather dated, and only serve to separate players in what is supposed to be a large online community. I don't mean that all players should be friends and get along and not be able to kill each other, just that a black and white choose-when-you-make-your-character-and-it's-impossible-to-reverse (unless you allow faction swaps) decision. There's nothing wrong with choosing an initial allegiance, but it shouldn't lock and dictate your allowable actions. For example, my Jedi Guardian is a full LS protector of all that is good. I consider him a Paladin. So if I saw another DS Jedi killing innocent people, wouldn't it fit my persona better if I tried to stop him? It feels like I'm a defender of the innocent, unless someone of my faction wants to hurt them, and then it's just tough luck for the people getting slaughtered. Factions should change based on actions and circumstances. What I'd really like to see is an ability to group with people of an opposing faction to take on mutual enemies. A Jedi and a Sith wouldn't normally run together, but heck there's even apart in the Republic story on Hoth where you team up with the Imps to neutralize a native threat. From a PvE perspective, anyone should be able to group with anyone else against most content (though not always. An Empire would not bu running Esseles from a lore point of view) PvP could still exist with initial factions against each other, or later factions against each other based on current standing. Open world PvP would be limitless, but you could also help everyone you meet if you're just really a nice guy. Fuller customization - Not just aesthetically (though I would like PvP gear that doesn't make me look like a space samuria) but actual character play and progression. LS/DS would be much more fun if it had an actual impact on the story. I've never played Fable, but I've heard a lot about it's branching story, complete with people reacting to you differently based on your actions. Different places with different alignments (in the DnD sense) that react differently based on who your character is wouldn't be hard to implement, and would help with immersion. Also, specs and abilities. When I first chose guardian for my AC, I opened up the skill tree and immediately said "Tank/DPS/PvP", then mentally mapped out where all my points would go. Lo and behold, 2 months later that spec has not changed, and I imagine it's the same as 90% of the other guardian tanks in this game. I knew exactly where to put things, because it is the same as what I did in WoW for 7 years. What I think would work better would be a system similar to Rifts, with interchangeable trees, and abilities based on preference, but with ability points added as well. You choose a tree that you like, put talent or skill points into changing the way abilites work with each other, and then add points to the abilities you prefer using. Your rotation would be based on which abilities you choose to enhance (to a limit of course) and which talents you have chosen, rather than the copy/paste specs and rotations most games employ. Having procs that slightly change a rotation does not make game play dynamic or exciting. Granted, this would be a nightmare to balance, but half the fun would be finding ways to create OP combinations the designers never thought of and then laughing while you wait to get hit with the nerf bat. Since this is getting lengthy, I'll wrap it up with one final suggestion: Truely dynamic worlds - The name escapes me, but I've heard of a game with capturable PvP objectives in an open world environment. You attack a city/settlement, take over, and hold it as long as you can. You create your presence in the area, and it reacts and acknowledges that you now own it. Imagine this, but no restricted to PvP. Imagine PvE objectives opening up new areas. Imagines lands where you don't directly fight other players (though you could) but race against them to destroy enemies first, to collect objectives before they do. Where the land reacts to what you do, and encourages you to keep going. Towns people start to cheer each time you return. Settlements grow as you slay their enemies and bring them supplies. The world grows and crumples around you based on how they are doing, and how other players help/hurt them. Anyway, just my thoughts. 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gurugeorge Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) This is pretty close to my whole sentiment on the situation. The thing is, I have been involved in the launch of just about every major subscription based MMO for the past 10 years. In recent years, I have noticed this shift where, even though a technically well made MMO is released, players will just bash it to oblivion because it does not fulfill all of their expectations. I mean, Rift is a prime example. Sure, it may be a WoW clone, but it is a significant improvement over what WoW had to offer. And, once again, I feel the same way with TOR. It might not be a revolution of the traditional MMO, but it is at least an evolution. Well put, my feelings exactly. There's something awry with the way people are receiving MMOs these days, and it probably does have a lot to do with WoW, unfortunately (even though it is, or was, a great game, when I played it roundabout TBC anyway). I think there are a lot of MMO vets nowadays for whom WoW was their first MMO experience, and they seem to have a schizophrenic attitude to new MMOs: on the one hand, because WoW was their first "magic MMO experience", every new MMO has to have the same features, the same gameplay, the same everything, otherwise they whine and complain. But of course, on the other hand, it's those very features that they're bored with, and those very features are the reason they are casting around for another MMO to play, in a hopeless attempt to "recapture the magic" (compare: losing your virginity again). So no developers can possibly win, really. No new MMO gets a chance to breathe and be itself, to be what it is, and attract whoever is attracted to that kind of game. It's immediately jumped on by a fickle bunch of bored ex-WoW-ers, and then dumped on for both being like WoW and not being enough like WoW. Whereas actually any comparison with WoW ought to be quite irrelevant to any gamer who is not also a suit, and even then only as a curiosity. Edited February 17, 2012 by gurugeorge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Votrex Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 A single shard for all players, a sandbox similar to EVE Online with a myriad of ingame activities, massive player driven economy, wars over economic resources and a combat system similar to console fighting games. That would keep me busy for a very very long time. ^ This! And housing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddickcz Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 You've already overhyped the game in your mind. Disappointment incoming. Actually I just stated the facts..but yea, Im hyped..hope the disappointment wont come as it did in SWTOR case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthKhaos Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 TOR however only has "story" and it's not even great. Yea some are good but the Consular, Knight are terrible imo and what about when the story is over? What then? It is of YOUR opinion that the story isn't even great. YOU don't like the Jedi Consular & Knight stories. Please... Get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeTwo Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 It is of YOUR opinion that the story isn't even great. YOU don't like the Jedi Consular & Knight stories. Please... Get it right. You clearly don't know what IMO means... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddickcz Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 You clearly don't know what IMO means... I Mean Off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthKhaos Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I think everyone wants that feeling of there first MMO. It is a fix they will never get again but will always be searching for. That's also part of the problem with some of these posts. Painting game X or game Y as being so awesome yet people didn't stay or bother going back. For some World of Warcraft was their first MMO and I'd say it's pretty solid because people stayed. People left and went back. I can acknowledge EvE Online a great economic sim. If crafting and resource gathering is your thing it's on. Combat to me seemed slow if 2 players were pretty even, and 2 shot if they were not. SW:G was a nice concept but timeline was a big hurdle to cross. That and it didn't give what a lot of star wars fans want. But that's my 2credits. I have fond memories of a text based mud I used to play but I can tell you this. I'm not going back there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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