Are all MMO games doomed to die or can the tide be changed

[marshalleck]

Population =/= revenue.

 

Turbine: LotRO revenue tripled since going F2P.

 

"Going F2P is fail!"

 

This is nonsense children say. It's also simply, empirically false. Stop.

 

You can stop linking that article. All it establishes is that going F2P revitalized the game; nobody has contended otherwise. You keep ignoring the actual argument, which is that subscription-based games only seem to go F2P when they're doing poorly, e.g. failing to meet projected subscription retention rates.

 

I ask again, show me a subscription-based game which was growing or trending steady, which decided to go F2P. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I'm not aware of one.

Edited February 16, 2012 by marshalleck

[cesmode]

Every new release, there are more and more people who pvp that never had. The proof is in the large swtor pvp community.

 

It may be time to get away from such a heavy pve centric game. Content in those games can't be made fast enough now a days. No matter what is made it's pretty close to the same old thing.

 

See, I completely disagree with this. Obviously you are entitled to your opinion. But look at the history of such games that steered away from PVE as its center. Aion, warhammer...The hype for these games were enormous, yet they fell flat. Now look at games that are PVE centric: WoW, Rift...these games are successful. The problem with balancing a game around PVP is that you are trying to make too many people too happy and you end up making noone happy. So when noone is happy and playing your crappy PVP game, they turn to PVE and find that theres a lack of content there to keep them busy, resulting in unsubs.

 

They cannot possibly make every class and spec balanced so that all is happy in PVP. The masters of the universe over at blizzard have been trying to do this for years. While, at times, they are mildly successful, there are huge gaps in their balance and they cannot fix it. Id argue to say that Blizzard has to be one of the most competant game devleoping companies of all time. How else could they make one game reshape an industry with, at one point, 12 mil subs...With that reputation, and their inability to balance PVP, Id say that making a game that is revolved around your inability to balance around PVP is doomed to fail.

 

Stick to a PVE centric game, and make PVP, while as large as it can be, secondary. I understand a lot of people play PVP . It is fun! I play it. Just dont make it your core.

[Kfab]

Knowing Blizzard, when "Titan" project is released, I will be a grandfather.

 

PS. I am 28 now.

 

Hahahahaha! So true!

[Xanthlor]

Simply put: if its not a clone its a niche game.

 

TSW seems to be breaking a lot of barriers however it will be a niche game because most people will not want to think hard while playing a game.

[JustTed]

You can stop linking that article. All it establishes is that going F2P revitalized the game; nobody has contended otherwise. You keep ignoring the actual argument, which is that subscription-based games only seem to go F2P when they're doing poorly, e.g. failing to meet projected subscription retention rates.

 

I didn't ignore it. It's fiction made up by kids. It isn't true.

 

How many times do I have to say that?

 

I might be true sometimes, but that's not what you or anyone else in this thread is saying. You're saying "If you start with a sub fee, then remove it, it's because you're hurting and you're struggling to stay afloat."

 

FALSE.

 

Get it? It's quite simple.

 

I ask again, show me a subscription-based game which was growing or trending steady, which decided to go F2P. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I'm not aware of one.

 

Nor am I. This doesn't change any of the above points though. Give it a few years. Eventually, no one will be charging for MMOs. This is the new world order. The fact that you and others have coupled that with "failing" is false.

[Tic-]

See, I completely disagree with this. Obviously you are entitled to your opinion. But look at the history of such games that steered away from PVE as its center. Aion, warhammer...The hype for these games were enormous, yet they fell flat. Now look at games that are PVE centric: WoW, Rift...these games are successful. The problem with balancing a game around PVP is that you are trying to make too many people too happy and you end up making noone happy. So when noone is happy and playing your crappy PVP game, they turn to PVE and find that theres a lack of content there to keep them busy, resulting in unsubs.

 

They cannot possibly make every class and spec balanced so that all is happy in PVP. The masters of the universe over at blizzard have been trying to do this for years. While, at times, they are mildly successful, there are huge gaps in their balance and they cannot fix it. Id argue to say that Blizzard has to be one of the most competant game devleoping companies of all time. How else could they make one game reshape an industry with, at one point, 12 mil subs...With that reputation, and their inability to balance PVP, Id say that making a game that is revolved around your inability to balance around PVP is doomed to fail.

 

Stick to a PVE centric game, and make PVP, while as large as it can be, secondary. I understand a lot of people play PVP . It is fun! I play it. Just dont make it your core.

 

EvE is successful, DAoC was as well, until they turned it into a PvE grind.

 

Perhaps its not just

PvE = good game

PvP = bad game

 

maybe bad games are bad, and good games are good?

[Harleyz]

I blame the community. Its horrid and silent.

And when people do speak, well 80% of the time its like school boys arguing.

[marshalleck]

I didn't ignore it. It's fiction made up by kids. It isn't true.

 

How many times do I have to say that?

 

I might be true sometimes, but that's not what you or anyone else in this thread is saying. You're saying "If you start with a sub fee, then remove it, it's because you're hurting and you're struggling to stay afloat."

 

FALSE.

 

Get it? It's quite simple.

 

 

 

Nor am I. This doesn't change any of the above points though. Give it a few years. Eventually, no one will be charging for MMOs. This is the new world order. The fact that you and others have coupled that with "failing" is false.

 

Dodge dodge dodge. It's no wonder the other guy is ignoring you now.

[Sky_walkerPL]

Problem is that MMO gene is VERY young and still have lots of childish behaviors.

 

Yea, yea, there were some games called MMOs back ages ago too, but the history of actual MMO gene as we know it now exists since WoW. And as any fresh gene it struggles hardly with same crap:

- All games are in fact one game with different skins (this case: WoW) or focus more on one aspect than another (GW follows this path with it's PvP focus instead of PvE).

- MMOs mixing genes with other are relatively rare and almost all of them fail (only exception here being eve)

- It doesn't have almost any established sub-genes

- Gene community is blind for any innovations and tries to enforce it's own ways taken from most popular game of the kind (this community is best example, especially with texts like "voiceover is worth nothing, we want cross-server LFD!" or "storyline is worth nothing when there's no endgame content!")

- Gene still is very niche, focused around specific group of players (TOR being first exception from this, although looking at the direction of changes - it won't be for long)

- Every game of the gene struggles against one big player. There's no diverse open market.

 

So IMO all MMO games will stop being doomed from the start when MMOs start to evolve, and open to new things instead of holding wow's skirt and trying to catch whatever falls down from big table.

Yea, there are some "innovations" and slow progress, but it's still everything the same with no breakthroughs. All the other genes, even sport games, have this phase long behind them, yet here we struggle.

[defiantlegacy]

Death comes to them all

[Zyanzor]

It looks like all new MMO's that are hitting the market are all doomed to live short lives.

What do you feel could change the tide? What would keep you captivated to swtor for the rest of your life?

 

I don't mean things like fix bugs, dual spec, frame rate issues, add ons, a thousand more etc ... but what is the innovative touch that can give MMO a decade life spam.

 

Just some examples:

 

Should it become a true social network, creating a facebook environment inside swtor, allowing to do all the cool things you can do in facebook.

 

or what about having your desktop incorporated inside swtor allowing you to browse, email, skype, etc ... do all the cool things you do on your computer but then inside the Galaxy

 

.....

 

Funny you say this because when I first started playing World of Warcraft back in Dec 04, I thought for sure that game was going to die fast and hard. Over 7 years later WoW is still kicking, so I guess you just never know? I think SWTOR is doing pretty good so far. They communicate with the community well, patches are released almost weekly and Bioware is a all around good company.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Zyanzor

[Tigrakis]

I like this idea, kind of. Not a single shard and don't mention EVE online, I hated that game. But you bring up a valid idea, where things can be more interactive. Why have 2 factions? Why not 3 or 4? Actually why not be able to pick your own faction? Or maybe factions are just guilds?

 

I would also add : why 3 roles ?

 

It could be interesting to check (after release) Secret World because they apparently intend to try some new things : no classes , you can select any combination of abilities . There are 3 factions , not 2.

[Wolfeisberg]

You can stop linking that article. All it establishes is that going F2P revitalized the game; nobody has contended otherwise. You keep ignoring the actual argument, which is that subscription-based games only seem to go F2P when they're doing poorly, e.g. failing to meet projected subscription retention rates.

 

I ask again, show me a subscription-based game which was growing or trending steady, which decided to go F2P. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I'm not aware of one.

 

LOTRO wasn't growing, but it was stagnant. Since Warner Bros is a public traded company and they bought Turbine, it was stated that LOTRO had about 200,000 subscribers. 200,000 subscribers is still a really good number, and was profitable for them. But when WB took over they saw what happened to DDO and figured it that it would do the same for LOTRO, which it did. So going FTP just made them even more profitable.

 

But that is the only game I can think of that didn't need to go Free to play to stay a float, it mearly went free to play because the new owners knew it could be more profitable if it did.

 

IMO, I still think LOTRO's version of the Free To Play model is one of the best models out there. You buy the content as you go, even earn points in the game to buy that content. Once you bought the content, you never have to buy that content again.

[AtomicWanderer]

~~

A lot of the big MMO's that have came out lately flat out need more things to do than dailies and a PvE group grind.

 

In-depth crafting and resource gathering, collections, housing, farming, non-combat activities and professions. I think a lot of people want to have more of an impact on the game world and not just 'play through it". Basically keep the themepark stuff of quests and instances and what have you, but make a lot of other activities for people to really get into. It's probably the biggest problem ToR is going to have in the long run.

 

Problem is, no big money companies are willing to make a game like that. Some indie companies try, but lack the resources to make it polished and widely appealing.

~~

 

LOTRO has many of the things you're asking for, yet it "failed" to F2P as well...

[laural]

For me personally, I will probably stop playing MMOs if they continue on the same path as WoW. I got tired of WoW and left it for a reason. I don't raid, run dungeons at all (until I outlevel them and can run them by myself), and I don't PVP. I don't gear grind (snore), and I will run dailies maybe 3 or 4 times before I'm done with them (snore). End game for me is pretty much the end of my character unless there is more to do besides gear grind, which I don't need because I don't raid.

 

The biggest draw to MMOs for me is the living, breathing world that I can step into and control what I do and when (unlike real life). I enjoy crafting and hunting for stuff (whether it's ore or plants or skins or collections of some sort). I enjoy the world and can sometimes just stand somewhere and be in awe of the world around me.

 

I've only been playing MMOs for 5 or 6 years. WoW was my first, and I was blown away because it was like nothing I've ever seen before (I was not a gamer before this). I lasted about 3 years there. Next was Rift. I lasted about 9 months. SWTOR, I lasted about a month. Countless hours of downloads in between these games to try other MMOs but quickly deleted because the controls/UI were not natural for me. The most important thing for me is natural feeling of movement/controls. I won't even give a game more than an hour if I don't like the controls - such as Skyrim on PC. I really wanted to play that game, but the controls...I couldn't take it.

 

 

I know I'm experiencing MMO burnout, but I'm not sure exactly what it is I'm burned out on. I think (for me personally), I need a new MMO that does not rely on questing only to level up (by the time WoW introduced the leveling by harvesting, I was already burnt out on the game world itself, so it didn't keep me interested). Maybe the quests themselves need to change (less "go here, kill xx of this", etc.) I want to be able to log in and do something else for an hour or so that doesn't require me to fight through mobs nonstop.

 

If MMOs could put some kind of questing in place that required me to travel around the world looking for clues or something to lead to the next one, that might be more interesting. I really don't know though. I won't know until I find a game that interests me again (if I find it). In the meantime, I will continue to try all the games coming out in the next year in hopes that one grabs my interest again. If that doesn't happen within the next year or so, I'll probably give up.

Edited February 16, 2012 by laural

[Valkirus]

Gheeze.....MMO's are not doomed to die. The market now is more competitive than ever. I remember reading early last year, BW only needed a steady sub base of 300k to make a profit on TOR. Blizz is working on Titan and GW2 is coming out this year and the list goes on and on. Such a silly thread.

[Riddickcz]

Gheeze.....MMO's are not doomed to die. The market now is more competitive than ever. I remember reading early last year, BW only needed a steady sub base of 300k to make a profit on TOR. Blizz is working on Titan and GW2 is coming out this year and the list goes on and on. Such a silly thread.

 

To make profit with 300k subs? In what 50 years?

You know that the game cost 300 mil dollars, right?

 

Your just pulling numbers out of your pocket.

[CptKloss]

Gheeze.....MMO's are not doomed to die. The market now is more competitive than ever. I remember reading early last year, BW only needed a steady sub base of 300k to make a profit on TOR. Blizz is working on Titan and GW2 is coming out this year and the list goes on and on. Such a silly thread.

 

yeah... more companies will churn out more cheesey attempts to cash in. that's ok. when OP says "doomed" - i take it more like he means a game that people want to play and enjoy for a long period of time. no such games around for me. SWTOR will have an amazingly short life span.

[WarTornPanda]

To make profit with 300k subs? In what 50 years?

You know that the game cost 300 mil dollars, right?

 

Your just pulling numbers out of your pocket.

 

He might be wrong, but you are also pulling numbers out of your pocket.

[Master-Nala]

It looks like all new MMO's that are hitting the market are all doomed to live short lives.

.....

 

 

Everquest Online Adventures a PS2 game with about 5K players is still running. To paraphrase the late comedian Robin Harris:

 

MMOs don't die...they multiply.

[Riddickcz]

He might be wrong, but you are also pulling numbers out of your pocket.

 

Excuse me, good sir. Which of my numbers are You referring to?

[solidkjames]

I have a feeling they're going to go for a radical reinvention of the genre. All they've said so far is 1, it's a new I.P. (So not World of StarCraft or anything, as cool as that would have been) and 2, it'll be very different from current MMORPGs.

 

A lot of game systems in MMORPGs don't make a lot of sense and are counter productive when it comes to playing a game with other people (like leveling).

 

The genre also needs to be vastly simplified so it can finally and properly support PvP. When you have eight classes with dozens of abilities each, balancing the game becomes an impossibility. It's never going to happen. Someone needs to design an MMO with competition in mind (not the same as saying "we're going to have PvP"), then build the PvE framework up around that. Currently, it's done the other way around, and the results show it. I don't even care about PvP in MMORPGs, but at least do it right for those who do.

 

There is enough info out there to know that Titan is not going to be a MMORPG but more of a social MMO. It is targeting all those billions of dollars and social game players that make Facebook such a success. They will never release a MMORPG to compete with WoW due to the expectations have of all games that are not WoW. They are smart enough to know that you can not compete with a game that has 10 years worth of development time and expect it to be as successful, so don't look for another MMORPG from Blizzard anytime in the future.

[Marlaine]

Not copying wow would be a spectacular first step.

 

To be fair there's a lot of good things about wow. For example the gameplay / combat is the smoothest I've dealt with in any mmo. But I think people are starting to get really sick of the level to max and perpetually raid design philosophy.

 

I just don't see how any company sees it as a good thing when you release a raid, your playerbase plays for two months, and then cancels for four months while you make the next raid. That completely defeats the purpose of a mmo to me. A mmo should be something that the average player can ALWAYS login and make meaningful progression in. The raiding philosophy destroys that ideal.

[jeepoverland]

Yes, MMOs can change. Unforuntely for SWTOR the changes will most likely resemble features already in WoW...thus impress few except for the fanbois who will love this game until its F2P....and even then...

[marshalleck]

Oh good god.

 

 

 

This is a criterion you made up.

 

Get it? You made it up. It's an illusion. It's your criterion. No one in the business world cares. No one in the video game world cares.

 

The fact that no MMO with a growing subscription base has switched to F2p proves absolutely, unequivocally nothing. You just think it does.

 

 

 

No you're not. You're living in damn fantasy world. I don't know why I bother. Did you watch the video I linked? No. That's no engaging like an adult, that's your head, firmly in the sand.

 

I'm done here. Enjoy your fantasy world.

 

You're excused.