Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[mattgyver]

If you are opposed to this, you should think hard about why it is that you don't want diversified content in this game. It's such a stretch to say that sandbox titles fail and carry a small auduence so if this game touches that poison water it will fail too!! Apples and Oranges on a big scale.

 

Don't call it sandbox then, just call it choice-based leveling, or advanced optional crafting. That should keep the bad buzzwords away.

 

Who is the guy who is going to get on a new planet designed in a more open manner and go: "Where are my beloved exhaustion zones? Why is there weather? I saw a mountain in the distance and It wasn't just a flat picture in the skybox. I quit!"

 

If you love the game, you're not going anywhere if they add stuff to do.

[Vlaxitov]

ha, you really hit the nail with that! May I use this as my new signature?

 

Of course you can.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Who is the guy who is going to get on a new planet designed in a more open manner and go: "Where are my beloved exhaustion zones? Why is there weather? I saw a mountain in the distance and It wasn't just a flat picture in the skybox. I quit!"

 

I bet the usual 5-6% would complain about that, like they complained about the Rakghoul event.

 

"The setting suns on Tattooine are blinding me, give me back my static suns. The sandstorms during night depress me. Also the planets are too big now, I get lost, I want my exhaustion zones back".....

[AnoriOlko]

TOR still has the option to make this game more sandbox with introductions of new planets. Lets go Bioware, think Tatooine..but much much larger, open, without linear quests (perhaps the only linear being class based)

[WLpride]

I think it's obvious that it's basically too late for SWTOR to be anything but theme-park. I have no idea what's required to make a 'good' sandbox mmo but it's obviously not this. This being a primarily quest based/wow non-destructable landscape no mechanic for 'campaign' or such thought. Everything here in swtor revolves around symbolic rewards and reward of Valor and status. Possibly in the future the customiztion will be a stronger driving factor than it is now.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Why always the small indie developers without budget or reasonable team sizes come up with great concepts is beyond me. Most of the time these enthusiasts run out of money to even finish the game or if the product is out, no one knows their titles so they run out of funds to create more content and also fail.

 

The "big gaming companies" with hundreds of people on the team who´d have the money to innovate stick to the same old beaten tracks for over a decade.

It´s a real tragedy.

 

Here some tech demos of fantastic and revolutionary stuff done by a small group of enthusiasts:

20 developers - Xsyon - Indie MMO Project

 

8 developers - Infinty i-Novae - Indie MMO Project / Space Engine

Seemless flight from space through asteroid belt right into the planets atmosphere

Edited May 9, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Dezzi]

Why always the small indie developers without budget or reasonable team sizes come up with great concepts is beyond me. Most of the time these enthusiasts run out of money to even finish the game or if the product is out, no one knows their titles so they run out of funds to create more content and also fail.

 

The "big gaming companies" with hundreds of people on the team who´d have the money to innovate stick to the same old beaten stuff over a decade.

It´s a real tragedy.

 

Here some tech demos of fantastic and revolutionary stuff done by a small group of enthusiasts:

20 developers - Xsyon - Indie MMO Project

 

8 developers - Infinty i-Novae - Indie MMO Project / Space Engine

Seemless flight from space through asteroid belt right into the planets atmosphere

 

The reason is very simple: The more money invested in a game, the fewer risks the developers take.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Dezzi

[Darka]

I think

That if TOR was a sandbox everyone would say " oh they should have made it a themepark :mad:"

[mattgyver]

I bet the usual 5-6% would complain about that, like they complained about the Rakghoul event.

 

"The setting suns on Tattooine are blinding me, give me back my static suns. The sandstorms during night depress me. Also the planets are too big now, I get lost, I want my exhaustion zones back".....

 

Yes, that's true. I forgot about that. But I'm sure the 6-8% are factored in

[terzappi]

sandbox.

[Sagimore]

WoW is a themepark, but not as themparkish as this game. WoW gives you options on which ride to get on. And the park isnt a maze with one entrance and one exit.

 

Thats my biggest issue with this game....If I see a mountain I want to know I can climb up it(rift did this well and so did wow) I hate feeling boxed in.

[BJWyler]

Just as bad as the music industry does atm.

 

Dumbed down music and dumbed down video games for a dumbed down generation.

 

But who's fault is that. The ills of society can only be blamed on the society itself.

 

BJ

[Sandtrooper]

Honestly, I'd love to have a bit of sandbox in SW:TOR.

 

 

Sand (no pun intended, I sign all my posts this way)

[BJWyler]

If you are opposed to this, you should think hard about why it is that you don't want diversified content in this game. It's such a stretch to say that sandbox titles fail and carry a small auduence so if this game touches that poison water it will fail too!! Apples and Oranges on a big scale.

 

Don't call it sandbox then, just call it choice-based leveling, or advanced optional crafting. That should keep the bad buzzwords away.

 

Who is the guy who is going to get on a new planet designed in a more open manner and go: "Where are my beloved exhaustion zones? Why is there weather? I saw a mountain in the distance and It wasn't just a flat picture in the skybox. I quit!"

 

If you love the game, you're not going anywhere if they add stuff to do.

 

But the key is time and resources. For me, what's the point of having weather in a game if it doesn't affect gameplay? Vanguard has day/night cycles, but the game play remains the same regardless of what point the cycle is at in game. I am an explorer by nature in my games, but unless there is good reason to go to that mountain, it's likely to be largely ignored, and thus wasted effort. If there is going to be player housing, make it something more than a decorators wet dream. To be honest, if I am playing a game, I would rather be out exploring the wild and completing quests than sitting at home staring at my virtual Picaso.

 

I would rather a dev spend time and resources creating meaningful content in a game. Each of these features people think about takes time and resources to produce. The more time and resources spent means less time on actual playable content. If there is going to be a day/night/weather cycle, then let the actual content of the game change along with the cycle - if I visit a zone during the day to complete a quest, and come back at night, give me something different in that zone to do. If you are going to create a majestic mountain in the distance, give me a reason to go there, other than "it looks pretty." If you are going to give me player housing, at least make it functional to the story line and give me a reason to use it (at least our ships in SWTOR have this potential and have the basic use of travel already built-in).

 

BJ

[Sandtrooper]

Well, comparing themeparks to sandboxes is sort of like "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence."

 

EVE is a sandbox. I played it for a while and I'm not sure it is for everyone who is used to a themepark. In EVE you zoom around space in a ship but you never get "out" of the ship to walk around or interact with other toons. You never see monsters, NPCs or solve puzzles. No face to face violence with another toon or NPC. No pretty planetary vistas or architecture to look at or investigate. No buildings to walk into. No voice acting at all. The graphics are super bare bones compared to other MMOs and RPGs.

 

EVE is very cerebral. Other than full 3D space combat it pretty much takes place in your head.

 

And mining by pointing a laser at an asteroid for a big part of your online experience? Please don't get me started.

 

 

Sand

[Goretzu]

I think

That if TOR was a sandbox everyone would say " oh they should have made it a themepark :mad:"

 

Maybe, but if they'd made it a hybrid with the best of "themepark" and "sandbox", no one would have said anything, because EVERYONE would have been too busy playing it.

 

SWTOR is the most "themeparky" MMORPG I've ever seen...... and I don't think that's a good thing for long-term surviability. It makes WoW look "sandbox".

[Goretzu]

But the key is time and resources. For me, what's the point of having weather in a game if it doesn't affect gameplay? Vanguard has day/night cycles, but the game play remains the same regardless of what point the cycle is at in game.

 

 

So does SWTOR, the difference is nothing (at all) ever changes in SWTOR, it's litterally a photograph that you can walk though.

[mattgyver]

But the key is time and resources. For me, what's the point of having weather in a game if it doesn't affect gameplay? Vanguard has day/night cycles, but the game play remains the same regardless of what point the cycle is at in game. I am an explorer by nature in my games, but unless there is good reason to go to that mountain, it's likely to be largely ignored, and thus wasted effort. If there is going to be player housing, make it something more than a decorators wet dream. To be honest, if I am playing a game, I would rather be out exploring the wild and completing quests than sitting at home staring at my virtual Picaso.

 

I would rather a dev spend time and resources creating meaningful content in a game. Each of these features people think about takes time and resources to produce. The more time and resources spent means less time on actual playable content. If there is going to be a day/night/weather cycle, then let the actual content of the game change along with the cycle - if I visit a zone during the day to complete a quest, and come back at night, give me something different in that zone to do. If you are going to create a majestic mountain in the distance, give me a reason to go there, other than "it looks pretty." If you are going to give me player housing, at least make it functional to the story line and give me a reason to use it (at least our ships in SWTOR have this potential and have the basic use of travel already built-in).

 

BJ

 

It's not a bad point, but I also think that the assumed stance of the design team will of course be questing first. The problem comes if this other environmental and non-linear content stuff is not addressed. Then an opportunity has been missed to make the game a more multi-dimensional experience that appeals to a more broad audience as well as to the people who are gonna stay anyway.

 

As for the mountain, there is a famous saying about that ...

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

TOR still has the option to make this game more sandbox with introductions of new planets. Lets go Bioware, think Tatooine..but much much larger, open, without linear quests (perhaps the only linear being class based)

 

I don't know, from what I learned about this game and BWs approach to MMOs, there is a less than 3% chance they will derive the slightest bit from the concept of planets like they are now. Meaning static mobs, no day/night change, stationary birds, corridor design and exhaustion zones.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Synxos]

is that why every sandbox MMO fails miserably?

What are you talking about? The vast majority of MMOs are sandbox. Even WoW is more sandbox than themepark last time I played it. It has a vast open world. The only instanced part is the dungeons. Yeah, it's easy to gear up in Wow, but that makes a themepark, does not.

 

I'd calll Wow a mix between sandbox and themepark. But compared to SWTOR, it's completely sandbox.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Synxos

[Killgroth]

IMO you cannot go wrong with Sandbox for the Star Wars franchise. If you try and go theme park fully, you come out on a bland game for example what we have with this game. A very bland sub par MMO with little to do and not much to explore. Granted the class specific story lines are decent, but they are very unfinished and very very bland compaired to what they could come out to be. There are dozens of great sandbox MMOs out there that make a killing and have a very wide subscription base. In a franchise such as Star Wars, I honestly feel that to strictly go one way and not have a combination of both for the hard core gamers and regular fan base to enjoy makes it feel ver unfinished.

Coming from BioWare to say the least bit, they have set their own standards for this game way too high upon release, and now that it is quite a while down the road they are falling very short on delivering anything but a sub par MMORPG. This game was supposed to be a ground breaking and award winning MMORPG but in many players eyes it is neither. BioWare and EA have fallen short on delivering the basics for any MMO to successfully succeed with this game. The lack of PvP the very low populations on servers, poor economy, poor customization all of ehich should be very standard and emphisized in the Star Wars enviroment.

I feel that in order for the Devs and BioWare along with EA to turn this game around, they need to make a major compromise and some major face lifts otherwise the subscriptions and fan base will surely fall off from this game making it F2P in no time simply because they do not wish to give the game the attention and the change it needs to survive and claim the title of Ground Breaking and Award winning. The BioWare and EA name have got them this far, but as alot of people are seeing there is more work to be done for this game to successfully meet the standard requirments any MMORPG should have upon release especially in the Star Wars Universe.

[BJWyler]

Maybe, but if they'd made it a hybrid with the best of "themepark" and "sandbox", no one would have said anything, because EVERYONE would have been too busy playing it.

 

SWTOR is the most "themeparky" MMORPG I've ever seen...... and I don't think that's a good thing for long-term surviability. It makes WoW look "sandbox".

 

Guild Wars is worse. Very linear game and no crafting or such extra-curricular activities at all. Nevertheless, it is a game I enjoy immensely.

 

It's not a bad point, but I also think that the assumed stance of the design team will of course be questing first. The problem comes if this other environmental and non-linear content stuff is not addressed. Then an opportunity has been missed to make the game a more multi-dimensional experience that appeals to a more broad audience as well as to the people who are gonna stay anyway.

 

As for the mountain, there is a famous saying about that ...

 

But that all depends on your preferred type of game. As I mentioned above, Guild Wars is much more themeparky and linear than SWTOR, but it's still hailed as a boon to the genre.

 

For me, I think a mix of both can be a good thing too, but I don't want things forced on me, or feel forced into a certain playstyle (kinda defeats the sandbox purpose, doesn't it?). As Sand said, a game like Eve is not going to be everyone's cup of tea - many players need some hand-holding during their adventures, and a true sandbox does not offer that. More often than not, players will wander around aimlessly wondering what to do, get frustrated/bored and leave. Plus, with crafting systems, you have the potential of players feeling forced they need to buy stuff from other players if the system is not designed to give them enough choices in which to acquire something they want by the means they most prefer. If I want to get an white color crystal for my Lightsaber, I don't want the only option to do so be from a player-crated source - I want options to buy them from a high-end vendor, or find them in the wild. Having more choices in a game is always a good thing - including the choice to play with sandbox features, but those choices should not be forced on players who do not want them.

 

BJ

Edited May 9, 2012 by BJWyler

[mattgyver]

Guild Wars is worse. Very linear game and no crafting or such extra-curricular activities at all. Nevertheless, it is a game I enjoy immensely.

 

 

 

But that all depends on your preferred type of game. As I mentioned above, Guild Wars is much more themeparky and linear than SWTOR, but it's still hailed as a boon to the genre.

 

For me, I think a mix of both can be a good thing too, but I don't want things forced on me, or feel forced into a certain playstyle (kinda defeats the sandbox purpose, doesn't it?). As Sand said, a game like Eve is not going to be everyone's cup of tea - many players need some hand-holding during their adventures, and a true sandbox does not offer that. More often than not, players will wander around aimlessly wondering what to do, get frustrated/bored and leave. Plus, with crafting systems, you have the potential of players feeling forced they need to buy stuff from other players if the system is not designed to give them enough choices in which to acquire something they want by the means they most prefer. If I want to get an white color crystal for my Lightsaber, I don't want the only option to do so be from a player-crated source - I want options to buy them from a high-end vendor, or find them in the wild. Having more choices in a game is always a good thing - including the choice to play with sandbox features, but those choices should not be forced on players who do not want them.

 

BJ

 

Good post man. I have to say that even if the Devs went buckwild with sandbox sickness, there is no way this game would become the animated spreadsheet that is EVE. I don't advocate getting rid of the existing content, and I know they will expand class stories etc. so I repeat I don't want the destruction of the existing game. However, there is plenty of room for some choices that don't break the existing features.

 

I want the handholding to be there, but I would like some areas that are unguided as well. I think the audience here is intelligent enough to know when they are in an area that is unguided, and adapt to that play or go back to what they were doing before. I think the unsatisfied Neophyte player who comes into the frontier and then promptly unsubs is a super low percentage occurrence. So improbable in fact, that in the sceme of things it would be insignificant.

 

As for the crafting bit, if you put crafting in a game, you simply can't hamstring it by putting the same quality stuff on auto vendors. The time and money you put into leveling your crafting is then worth zero. You level crafting to max level to be able to produce something extraordinary in exchange for your effort. It takes effort to get the money to buy the item from the NPC vendor (unless you bought gold from the Chinese), but it was a non-specific general effort that took much less time than leveling the crafting. I don't oppose being able to buy this stuff from GTN (as being sold by peeps who ran OPs, etc.), but the NPC vendor selling it is just another way of saying Crafting is a grind mini-game, not a part of the game community or economy.

Edited May 10, 2012 by mattgyver

[Merex]

I'm sure a lot of designers (possibly even the ones on swtor's team) prefer sandbox over theme park. I prefer sandbox. But what it boils down to in the end is which one has a higher chance of success rate, and that isn't a sandbox game. The theme park design rules MMOs right now, and until a big company has the balls to do sandbox, it'll never become a staple in MMO design. Edited May 10, 2012 by Merex

[mattgyver]

I'm sure a lot of designers (possibly even the ones on swtor's team) prefer sandbox over theme park. I prefer sandbox. But what it boils down to in the end is which one has a higher chance of success rate, and that isn't a sandbox game. The theme park design rules MMOs right now, and until a big company has the balls to do sandbox, it'll never become a staple in MMO design.

 

The whole thing is a moving picture though, who knows what will happen.