Sidious vs Vitiate

[wrnfkbsdgfbdsgb]

Actually I disagree, on the basis that "mutant version of Gollum" is a contradiction in terms.

 

Um how? Anything can be mutated

[wrnfkbsdgfbdsgb]

Sigh, very well, I concede, Palpatine wins and im a stupid, worthless moron. Happy?

[Beniboybling]

Um how? Anything can be mutated

Gollum is a mutant, therefore by calling Palpatine a mutated Gollum you are calling him a mutated mutant - that's called tautology. In truth Gollum and Palpatine are mutated humans, and because of that bear similarities.

 

Though, to be fair, they really don't.

Sigh, very well, I concede, Palpatine wins and im a stupid, worthless moron. Happy?

Put that in your sig and we will be. Edited April 6, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Put that in your sig and we will be.

 

Get back to the Kaggath old man, this battle was fought and won aeons ago.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Selenial

[wrnfkbsdgfbdsgb]

Though, to be fair, they really don't.[/color]Put that in your sig and we will be.

 

Gollum wasnt a human, he was a hobbit, but thats besides the point. I will put that in my sig if you provide me with the evidence i asked for days ago.

[Beniboybling]

Gollum wasnt a human, he was a hobbit, but thats besides the point. I will put that in my sig if you provide me with the evidence i asked for days ago.

Hence the fact they look nothing alike I guess.

 

And what evidence would that be exactly? As far as I'm aware, I just provided it.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Beniboybling

[wrnfkbsdgfbdsgb]

Hence the fact they look nothing alike I guess.

 

And what evidence would that be exactly? As far as I'm aware, I just provided it.

 

In which situation does Palpatine use Spear of Midnight Black? Battle Meditation? Deadly Sight? Force Destruction? Doppelganger? Things like that.

Edited April 6, 2014 by wrnfkbsdgfbdsgb

[Beniboybling]

In which situation does Palpatine use Spear of Midnight Black? Battle Meditation? Deadly Sight? Force Destruction? Things like that.

Simply because he has not used a power, does not mean he is not capable of it. Especially given the fact that Palpatine has been in few situations in which he has been in a position to bring his powers to bear, let alone all of them.

 

However we have a canonical source confirming him to have mastered virtually ever Force Power in existence, and he has demonstrated a lot of abilities, perhaps more than any living Force User has.

 

Nonetheless its irrelevant, this is about the Sith Emperor vs Sidious. There is nothing the Sith Emperor can do that demonstrates him to be a superior Force User than Sidious, and there is little if anything the Sith Emperor can do that - by compiling logic and evidence, or simply evidence alone - it cannot be concluded Sidious can do also.

[wrnfkbsdgfbdsgb]

Simply because he has not used a power, does not mean he is not capable of it. Especially given the fact that Palpatine has been in few situations in which he has been in a position to bring his powers to bear, let alone all of them.

 

However we have a canonical source confirming him to have mastered virtually ever Force Power in existence, and he has demonstrated a lot of abilities, perhaps more than any living Force User has.

 

Nonetheless its irrelevant, this is about the Sith Emperor vs Sidious. There is nothing the Sith Emperor can do that demonstrates him to be a superior Force User than Sidious, and there is little if anything the Sith Emperor can do that - by compiling logic and evidence, or simply evidence alone - it cannot be concluded Sidious can do also.

Well, if evidence cant be provided for Palpatine, the statement is useless. Without evidence, the argument falls apart.

[Beniboybling]

Well, if evidence cant be provided for Palpatine, the statement is useless. Without evidence, the argument falls apart.

And what argument is that exactly? Whether Sidious did or did not master virtually every known form is irrelevant to this discussion. Regardless, we have a canonical statement saying he did achieve this mastery and no evidence to the contrary refutes it other than an absence of evidence, but an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

I'm afraid the only argument that is falling apart is yours.

[wrnfkbsdgfbdsgb]

And what argument is that exactly? Whether Sidious did or did not master virtually every known form is irrelevant to this discussion. Regardless, we have a canonical statement saying he did achieve this mastery and no evidence to the contrary refutes it other than an absence of evidence, but an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

I'm afraid the only argument that is falling apart is yours.

 

If you do a debate or go to court and present no evidence for your claim, you will be dismissed. So, im afraid your argument is done. Word of mouth is useless without evidence. Also, word of mouth is not considered evidence by any debate or legal standards, so using the argument of verbal evidence is useless.

[Beniboybling]

If you do a debate or go to court and present no evidence for your claim, you will be dismissed. So, im afraid your argument is done. Word of mouth is useless without evidence. Also, word of mouth is not considered evidence by any debate or legal standards, so using the argument of verbal evidence is useless.

OK, but what is this was several centuries prior, and I had a decree from the king stating what I said was true?

 

I bet you I'd get pardoned. Canon is king.

 

Again, not that this is relevant to the debate. So I expect that quote in your sig.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Beniboybling

[wrnfkbsdgfbdsgb]

OK, but what is this was several centuries prior, and I had a decree from the king stating what I said was true?

 

I bet you I'd get pardoned. Canon is king.

 

Again, not that this is relevant to the debate. So I expect that quote in your sig.

 

No evidence, no quote, that was the arrangement. Also a decree is written in paper, thats not verbal evidence, thats a document.

[Beniboybling]

No evidence, no quote, that was the arrangement. Also a decree is written in paper, thats not verbal evidence, thats a document.

What arrangement? As far as I'm aware canon statements are to be regarded as facts within the Star Wars universe. That is the arrangement. If your not willing to accept that then there is nothing I can do for you I'm afraid.

[wrnfkbsdgfbdsgb]

What arrangement? As far as I'm aware canon statements are to be regarded as facts within the Star Wars universe. That is the arrangement. If your not willing to accept that then there is nothing I can do for you I'm afraid.

 

Well if you wish to believe in things without actual evidence, then be my guest, there is no point in bringing in personal philosophies into a discussion that is apparently over.

[Beniboybling]

Well if you wish to believe in things without actual evidence, then be my guest, there is no point in bringing in personal philosophies into a discussion that is apparently over.

No there is not, so keep them to yourself.

[Aurbere]

Sidious' knowledge of all Force abilities is a canon statement. It is absolute. There is no need for a plethora of evidence to support that statement for a several reasons, of which I don't need to say because they are so obvious.

[wrnfkbsdgfbdsgb]

Sidious' knowledge of all Force abilities is a canon statement. It is absolute. There is no need for a plethora of evidence to support that statement for a several reasons, of which I don't need to say because they are so obvious.

 

George Lucas also said Thrawn isnt canon, yet he is considered canon. So as far as i see, his statements are unreliable.

[Aurbere]

George Lucas also said Thrawn isnt canon, yet he is considered canon. So as far as i see, his statements are unreliable.

 

When did he say that?

 

Also, the quote I was referring to (previously posted) is from a sourcebook, not George Lucas.

[Beniboybling]

George Lucas also said Thrawn isnt canon, yet he is considered canon. So as far as i see, his statements are unreliable.

Oh wow, just wow.

[wrnfkbsdgfbdsgb]

When did he say that?

 

Also, the quote I was referring to (previously posted) is from a sourcebook, not George Lucas.

 

The Thrawn trilogy by Timothy Zahn is one of the most well-regarded pieces of work from the Star Wars Expanded Universe, selling 15 million copies worldwide since the release of book 1, Heir to the Empire, in 1991. It was devoured by an entire generation of Star Wars fans, who were too young to see Return of the Jedi at the cinema, and still almost a decade away from The Phantom Menace.

 

The latest Star Wars update from Disney is that there is going to be an extensive review into the EU and a reconsideration of what stories are going to be considered canon. Up to now, the entire EU was considered canon, with every story being vetted by Lucasfilm prior to publication, and a vast database of events and characters being kept.

 

But with a new series of films on the way, Disney wants the freedom to create new stories, and not be beholden to a canon that will be totally unfamiliar to the average movie-goer. This is fair enough. Disney wants to tell stories in the post-Return of the Jedi universe in which most of the major EU works take place. And let’s face it, some of the EU stories are bad, some of them are crazy, and some of them take Star Wars to places it really shouldn’t have gone.

 

Some of the EU stories are fantastic. Some of them are true to the characters, are exciting adventures, and unfold in a way that makes them logical and worthy follow-ups to the original Star Wars trilogy. And the Thrawn trilogy is a prime example of this kind of EU story.

 

Does it matter if Thrawn is considered canon or not? I guess it doesn’t really, the books will still be there, and will be just as good as they always were. But it’s another slap in the face to the die-hard Star Wars fans, who have had to put up with a lot of bad decisions, from the Special Editions, to the death of Chewbacca, to the love story in the prequel trilogy. Can’t we be allowed to keep this in the canon, as part of the ongoing story we’ve invested in for more than 20 years now?

 

The fans ultimately don’t matter to the bean-counters at Disney. Fans seemed to hate the prequels, but they earned over $2 billion at the global box office and spawned a merchandising wave that continues to be hugely profitable to this day. The fans will come, they are locked in to visiting a cinema in December 2015 to witness Episode VII, JJ Abrams would pretty much have to turn Star Wars into a musical to keep the fans away, and even then we’d probably still watch it.

 

Thrawn is a great story. It takes place five years after the events of Return of the Jedi. The new republic is in a delicate period of expansion and negotiation, and things are getting tough as the realities of governance begin to take their toll. But a Grand Admiral of the Empire has been biding his time, building a fleet and gaining loyal worlds, and he begins a mission of conquest and revenge. Throw into this long-lost battle fleets, cloning technology and a demented dark Jedi who wants to kidnap Han and Leia’s kids, and you have the makings of a *great trilogy.

 

The trilogy has some of the most vivid and interesting characters in the entire EU, from Grand Admiral Thrawn himself, a blue-skinned, red-eyed alien who goes everywhere with a creature that can suppress the force, to dark Jedi Mara Jade, the former hand of the Emperor, who has sworn revenge against Luke. These are great, interesting and viable characters and it would be a shame if they were suddenly considered non-canon.

 

More than that, the Thrawn trilogy really proved that tie-in or spin-off novels could add a huge amount to the worlds that they took place in. They didn’t have to be self-contained adventures that returned everything to normal at the end, they could grow and expand, and connect with millions of readers, instead of a narrow group of super-fans.

[StarSquirrel]

Wow, you're grasping at whole new levels of pointlessness

 

Pulling the "Disney is making new movies so nothing Post-RotJ exists" card is about as petty and ridiculous as you can get around here if that is indeed what you're trying to do with this.

 

Seriously, I see nothing from Lucas himself in there at all and nothing in there has Lucas, Leland Chee or even Disney retconning anything. That is a fan's rant, nothing more and not admissible as evidence.

[Beniboybling]

The Thrawn trilogy by Timothy Zahn is one of the most well-regarded pieces of work from the Star Wars Expanded Universe, selling 15 million copies worldwide since the release of book 1, Heir to the Empire, in 1991. It was devoured by an entire generation of Star Wars fans, who were too young to see Return of the Jedi at the cinema, and still almost a decade away from The Phantom Menace.

 

The latest Star Wars update from Disney is that there is going to be an extensive review into the EU and a reconsideration of what stories are going to be considered canon. Up to now, the entire EU was considered canon, with every story being vetted by Lucasfilm prior to publication, and a vast database of events and characters being kept.

 

But with a new series of films on the way, Disney wants the freedom to create new stories, and not be beholden to a canon that will be totally unfamiliar to the average movie-goer. This is fair enough. Disney wants to tell stories in the post-Return of the Jedi universe in which most of the major EU works take place. And let’s face it, some of the EU stories are bad, some of them are crazy, and some of them take Star Wars to places it really shouldn’t have gone.

 

Some of the EU stories are fantastic. Some of them are true to the characters, are exciting adventures, and unfold in a way that makes them logical and worthy follow-ups to the original Star Wars trilogy. And the Thrawn trilogy is a prime example of this kind of EU story.

 

Does it matter if Thrawn is considered canon or not? I guess it doesn’t really, the books will still be there, and will be just as good as they always were. But it’s another slap in the face to the die-hard Star Wars fans, who have had to put up with a lot of bad decisions, from the Special Editions, to the death of Chewbacca, to the love story in the prequel trilogy. Can’t we be allowed to keep this in the canon, as part of the ongoing story we’ve invested in for more than 20 years now?

 

The fans ultimately don’t matter to the bean-counters at Disney. Fans seemed to hate the prequels, but they earned over $2 billion at the global box office and spawned a merchandising wave that continues to be hugely profitable to this day. The fans will come, they are locked in to visiting a cinema in December 2015 to witness Episode VII, JJ Abrams would pretty much have to turn Star Wars into a musical to keep the fans away, and even then we’d probably still watch it.

 

Thrawn is a great story. It takes place five years after the events of Return of the Jedi. The new republic is in a delicate period of expansion and negotiation, and things are getting tough as the realities of governance begin to take their toll. But a Grand Admiral of the Empire has been biding his time, building a fleet and gaining loyal worlds, and he begins a mission of conquest and revenge. Throw into this long-lost battle fleets, cloning technology and a demented dark Jedi who wants to kidnap Han and Leia’s kids, and you have the makings of a *great trilogy.

 

The trilogy has some of the most vivid and interesting characters in the entire EU, from Grand Admiral Thrawn himself, a blue-skinned, red-eyed alien who goes everywhere with a creature that can suppress the force, to dark Jedi Mara Jade, the former hand of the Emperor, who has sworn revenge against Luke. These are great, interesting and viable characters and it would be a shame if they were suddenly considered non-canon.

 

More than that, the Thrawn trilogy really proved that tie-in or spin-off novels could add a huge amount to the worlds that they took place in. They didn’t have to be self-contained adventures that returned everything to normal at the end, they could grow and expand, and connect with millions of readers, instead of a narrow group of super-fans.

Errr... that's real nice and all but where exactly is the evidence that George has stated Thrawn to be non-canon?

 

You know, the guy who is no longer in charge?

Edited April 7, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

I'll just point out calling others fanboys and ignoring clear evidence is just meaning that you are unable to debate against a character, saying that "oh the post-ROTJ stuff is now non-canon" is another meaning when nothing official has been said.

 

Even then you don't have to look at the post-ROTJ material anyway, so that is really a moot thing to bring up.

 

If you are just going to

 

1. Ignore the evidence before you

 

2. Call others fanboys/girls

 

3. Post things that haven't been confirmed, nor even actually have to be brought up in debate.

 

Then you know yourself that you can't debate against Sidious here and are for whatever reason, continuing to post in hopes that something will change and Vitiate will be the winner...which isn't gonna happen.

 

AGAIN! Even if the post-ROTJ stuff is retconned, Sidious still shows far superior feats in combat related instances anyway.

 

Why you guys keep bringing up the post-ROTJ I haven't a clue, because it's not needed.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Kaedusz]

feats

 

What is this obsession with ''feats'' anyway?

I have never actually seen much feats from ,the Son , but i know he is extremely powerful,due to his nature and by virtue of what he is.

 

This ''feats'' method of comparing characters is deeply flawed and unreliable.

 

It's an attempt to bring exact science to a realm which has nothing to do with it.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Kaedusz