Sidious vs Vitiate

[puntingpassing]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=139297

 

You can just go ahead and skip to page 9. Sidious is the most powerful Sith according to Lucas cannon, which trumps all other cannon.

 

Yeah, well, Lucas is an idiot, and was probably watching DBZ when he decided to make Palps. Which makes your statement, no matter how true it is, complete bool shyte.

 

Just sayin'.

 

I mean, if Palps was a boss in an MMO, the you'd need WoW stats just to stay alive, according to how OP he is on cannon. Which is saying something in itself.

Edited January 5, 2015 by puntingpassing

[puntingpassing]

People say that Palps wins because he was naturally gifted with his power, and Vitiate had to use sorcery and rituals to gain his power. But I give this to Vitiate. The fact that he'd conquered an entire planet before even reaching puberty, and put over 8,000 Sith under his control BEFORE using his new force using cash-cows to absorb the life force of Nathema, or however the hell it was spelled, means that, pre-absorption, he was a lot more powerful then the Sidious fanboys think he is.

[fidothegran]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=139297

 

You can just go ahead and skip to page 9. Sidious is the most powerful Sith according to Lucas cannon, which trumps all other cannon.

 

lucas canon doesnt matter anymore, plus it has been confirmed that vitiate is the new main villain in the movies, and that sidious was controlled by vitiate

[Selenial]

lucas canon doesnt matter anymore, plus it has been confirmed that vitiate is the new main villain in the movies, and that sidious was controlled by vitiate

 

I lold.

 

Poor child, don't believe everything you see on the internet.

[Ghisallo]

I lold.

 

Poor child, don't believe everything you see on the internet.

 

The first part is true however. Atm the only real Canon starts with 6 screenplays, 2 cartoon seriesand then grows from there...so Dark Empire force storms? Trashed. Encyclopedia of whatever that gave a back story to this or that fight? Trashed. Opening worm holes? Trashed. Right now technically even the Emperor surviving episode 6 via clones is bye bye.

 

It is frustrating and it sucks. Decades of what we once called canon blown away with a single press release. However A LOT of the responses in this thread were before the "Great Purge" of Canon so no foul there.

[Aurbere]

The first part is true however. Atm the only real Canon starts with 6 screenplays, 2 cartoon seriesand then grows from there...so Dark Empire force storms? Trashed. Encyclopedia of whatever that gave a back story to this or that fight? Trashed. Opening worm holes? Trashed. Right now technically even the Emperor surviving episode 6 via clones is bye bye.

 

It is frustrating and it sucks. Decades of what we once called canon blown away with a single press release. However A LOT of the responses in this thread were before the "Great Purge" of Canon so no foul there.

 

While, yes, it is technically non-canon, it is also Legends. So discussing it in the context of Legends isn't wrong.

[Rhyltran]

The first part is true however. Atm the only real Canon starts with 6 screenplays, 2 cartoon seriesand then grows from there...so Dark Empire force storms? Trashed. Encyclopedia of whatever that gave a back story to this or that fight? Trashed. Opening worm holes? Trashed. Right now technically even the Emperor surviving episode 6 via clones is bye bye.

 

It is frustrating and it sucks. Decades of what we once called canon blown away with a single press release. However A LOT of the responses in this thread were before the "Great Purge" of Canon so no foul there.

 

Problem with this logic is then there's no point in comparing characters from SWTOR or the old republic period with characters from the movies. Why? Trashed. They're considered non-canon by Disney. The moment you discuss TOR characters you're speaking in the context of legends. In which case DE Sidious can be used as a comparison. Legends is not effected or altered by the new movies. Legends remains Legends in it's own vacuum. Legends is the old EU, the current movies, and the current clone wars t.v. series. Disney Canon is the current movies, the clone wars t.v. series, rebels, the new movies, and the new EU.

[Ghisallo]

While, yes, it is technically non-canon, it is also Legends. So discussing it in the context of Legends isn't wrong.

 

Sorta. Legends has so many inherent contradictions that it makes me teeth ache. Much of this is due to different authors exercising their vision but still. Add to this some of the Legends Characters are also Canon, for my own sanity I decided "in terms of comparison, if a canon character use what has been demonstrated in canon. If a Legends only character use the character as portrayed by the creator/first author."

 

Then again I am Darth OCD.

 

So if I was forced to answer the question proposed here, I would say put the two of them, in their prime, in the octagon and Sidious wipes the floor with Vitiate. Have Vitiate launch a first strike with some crazy dark side magnifying death machine Vitiate wins.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Rhyltran]

Sorta. Legends has so many inherent contradictions that it makes me teeth ache. Much of this is due to different authors exercising their vision but still. Add to this some of the Legends Characters are also Canon, for my own sanity I decided "in terms of comparison, if a canon character use what has been demonstrated in canon. If a Legends only character use the character as portrayed by the creator."

 

Then again I am Darth OCD.

 

So if I was forced to answer the question proposed here, I would say put the two of them, in their prime, in the octagon and Sidious wipes the floor with Vitiate. Have Vitiate laugh a first strike with some crazy dark side magnifying death machine Vitiate wins.

 

Inconsistencies are fixed by the rules of Canon. If a new C-Canon sources contradicts the older source the new source takes precedence. If a C-Canon sources contradicts a G-Canon source the C-Canon source is rendered Non-Canon. I think it's easier to separate Legends and Disney into two continuities and it's safe to say when someone is discussing legends they are referring to the legend counterpart of said characters.

[Ghisallo]

For that to have any true substance though you would need C-Canon to be internally consistent, and it's not...dead stop. When authors cared about consistency (and often they didn't) it was about names, dates, places etc. Second and perhaps most importantly the concept you raise may now be moot. The G-Canon>T-Canon>C-Canon etc is gone. That was started in 2000. In 2014 Disney basically said "6 screenplays + 2 TV shows + new stuff from this point forward is Canon." The EU is no longer Canon PERIOD. So what you refer to was then but this is now.

 

That is why I only use the stories written by the creator/original author as "canon" for that character when it comes to the characters unique to Legends (C-Canon being defunct). Its also why I use the screenplays as the comparisons for what is now the only true Canon with Legends. Since the technology, the Force etc are consistent you can still take the screen play Sidious and then compare him to Vitiate as we know what each is capable of in their own context.

 

I know people over the decades became attached to these things and if you want to argue this and that its all good I guess but like it or not the old G, T, C etc Canon is defunct

[Rhyltran]

For that to have any true substance though you would need C-Canon to be internally consistent, and it's not...dead stop. When authors cared about consistency (and often they didn't) it was about names, dates, places etc. Second and perhaps most importantly the concept you raise may now be moot. The G-Canon>T-Canon>C-Canon etc is gone. That was started in 2000. In 2014 Disney basically said "6 screenplays + 2 TV shows + new stuff from this point forward is Canon." The EU is no longer Canon PERIOD. So what you refer to was then but this is now.

 

That is why I only use the stories written by the creator/original author as "canon" for that character when it comes to the characters unique to Legends (C-Canon being defunct). Its also why I use the screenplays as the comparisons for what is now the only true Canon with Legends. Since the technology, the Force etc are consistent you can still take the screen play Sidious and then compare him to Vitiate as we know what each is capable of in their own context.

 

I know people over the decades became attached to these things and if you want to argue this and that its all good I guess but like it or not the old G, T, C etc Canon is defunct

 

G, T, and C Canon still works as a phrase in the context of legends because that was the skeleton it was built around. Original authors or not it's either N-Canon or isn't. Legends IS it's own continuity even if you want to consider it a Non-Canon Continuity. In short there's nothing wrong with discussing Vitiate vs DE Sidious. We're discussing two Non-Canon characters in the Legend stories. So why not? Nothing wrong.

[Ghisallo]

G, T, and C Canon still works as a phrase in the context of legends because that was the skeleton it was built around. Original authors or not it's either N-Canon or isn't. Legends IS it's own continuity even if you want to consider it a Non-Canon Continuity. In short there's nothing wrong with discussing Vitiate vs DE Sidious. We're discussing two Non-Canon characters in the Legend stories. So why not? Nothing wrong.

 

To be a continuity it has to be internally consistent. The only consistency that was ever present involved names, places and general settings etc. Technological and Force capabilities varied wildly to the point of ridiculousness. If you want to have a debate over what is ultimately subjective (pick the Sidious you want) knock yourself out. If I debate things I don't appreciate moveable goal posts and (to quote one of those who helped to define the defunct canon system) persons shrouded in Fog.

[Rhyltran]

To be a continuity it has to be internally consistent. The only consistency that was ever present involved names, places and general settings etc. Technological and Force capabilities varied wildly to the point of ridiculousness. If you want to have a debate over what is ultimately subjective (pick the Sidious you want) knock yourself out. If I debate things I don't appreciate moveable goal posts and (to quote one of those who helped to define the defunct canon system) persons shrouded in Fog.

 

Except the previous EU was canon despite "Inconsistencies." also that was the whole point of the Canon system. The same problem will occur in the new EU as well. Why? The new EU is also using the "Multiple author." line of thought. The EU in the past was canon despite not being "internally consistent." and yet it had continuity. As I mentioned before the rules of Canon were designed to minimize this with newer material taking precedence over older material.

 

Heck, to a degree, this is even true of the movies. Anakin defeats Dooku relatively effortlessly but then is dead even with Obi Wan. The canon answer is that he's his former master, knows his styles, and knows him. That Vader wasn't thinking clearly but the reason Obi Wan lost to Dooku on episode three was due to him being force choked and thrown aside. Why couldn't Vader do the same if he became more powerful than Dooku? Or how about when Obi Wan leapt out of the pit, flipped over Maul, and sliced him in half while he stood and watched then later tells Anakin "You can't win I have the high ground?" except he did the exact same thing before and won?

 

Before others argue with me I know the answer to these questions but let's be honest. I doubt Lucas thought of them. One can point to numerous inconsistencies within the movies themselves. Star Wars has always been this way.

[Leaveshill]

As stated, TOR is more realistic.

I mean... Luke beating Vader is just funny. I can't imagine Malgus or Marr being defeated by some fledgling. He had very little training,his training began with the moveis. He'd get destroyed by "Apprentice Malgus" (From the first cinematic) with ease.

 

But of course, Sidious has something no other has. Even with his "Lack" of martial arts (getting beaten once by Windu, means that he's probably not stronger than Windu with lightsabers.)

Yet, Sidious is a much "better" Sith. First of, he's not some madman. Second off, his knowledge of the Force to hide himself so close to the Jedi, to manipulate them and almost play with them is remarkable. He's creating a war between two factions, much like the "Star cabal" from Imperial Agent. But almost all by himself, with his wits and cunning.

 

Sidious would of course not defeat all TOR heroes, it's logical to assume that TOR heroes are better warriors than "golden generation" heroes because of this fact;

They just fought a war for 28 years. Hundreds of millions has likely died, and they've fought all over the galaxy. This forces evolution to cope with the next battle.

THe modern jedi can never, in any logical way, be "better warriors" then the TOR Jedi. NO matter what "cannon" say. The Ewoks can beat stormtroopers according to the movies, so we can assume that stone-age creatures can defeat modern super-soldiers. OK.....

 

Sidious must be given the title "Greatest Sith ever" for his knowledge of the Force, and ability to manipulate others and it to his purpose. And while SWTOR is in most ways more logical (Training SEEMS to be more important here than in the movies, where the greatest "******" vader gets beat by an undertrained youngster. And no stone-age midgets can defeat modern soldiers....

 

Sidious still did something Vitiate could not, and he must be respected for his ability to create a galactic Empire from the inside. That's after all "the goal" which no other managed. He lost in a pathetic manner due to Light being "superior" for being "light"; but that's not the discussion.

 

AND; SWTOR is almost always more "Logical" than the movies and not as black and white. But the TOR emperor and Revan is the exceptions, they're annoying at best.

[Rhyltran]

As stated, TOR is more realistic.

I mean... Luke beating Vader is just funny. I can't imagine Malgus or Marr being defeated by some fledgling. He had very little training,his training began with the moveis. He'd get destroyed by "Apprentice Malgus" (From the first cinematic) with ease.

 

But of course, Sidious has something no other has. Even with his "Lack" of martial arts (getting beaten once by Windu, means that he's probably not stronger than Windu with lightsabers.)

Yet, Sidious is a much "better" Sith. First of, he's not some madman. Second off, his knowledge of the Force to hide himself so close to the Jedi, to manipulate them and almost play with them is remarkable. He's creating a war between two factions, much like the "Star cabal" from Imperial Agent. But almost all by himself, with his wits and cunning.

 

Sidious would of course not defeat all TOR heroes, it's logical to assume that TOR heroes are better warriors than "golden generation" heroes because of this fact;

They just fought a war for 28 years. Hundreds of millions has likely died, and they've fought all over the galaxy. This forces evolution to cope with the next battle.

THe modern jedi can never, in any logical way, be "better warriors" then the TOR Jedi. NO matter what "cannon" say. The Ewoks can beat stormtroopers according to the movies, so we can assume that stone-age creatures can defeat modern super-soldiers. OK.....

 

Sidious must be given the title "Greatest Sith ever" for his knowledge of the Force, and ability to manipulate others and it to his purpose. And while SWTOR is in most ways more logical (Training SEEMS to be more important here than in the movies, where the greatest "******" vader gets beat by an undertrained youngster. And no stone-age midgets can defeat modern soldiers....

 

Sidious still did something Vitiate could not, and he must be respected for his ability to create a galactic Empire from the inside. That's after all "the goal" which no other managed. He lost in a pathetic manner due to Light being "superior" for being "light"; but that's not the discussion.

 

AND; SWTOR is almost always more "Logical" than the movies and not as black and white. But the TOR emperor and Revan is the exceptions, they're annoying at best.

 

Your knowledge of Star Wars is not very good. This is so wrong it's hard to know where to begin. Luke being a fledgling, Vader being weak, SWTOR sith/jedi on a whole being better than prequel era jedi (lol), etc. As for you not understanding why they can be stronger? Styles, forms, techniques, etc get better overtime. The prequel era jedi had thousands of years to perfect their art.

[Ghisallo]

Except the previous EU was canon despite "Inconsistencies." also that was the whole point of the Canon system. The same problem will occur in the new EU as well. Why? The new EU is also using the "Multiple author." line of thought. The EU in the past was canon despite not being "internally consistent." and yet it had continuity. As I mentioned before the rules of Canon were designed to minimize this with newer material taking precedence over older material.

 

Heck, to a degree, this is even true of the movies. Anakin defeats Dooku relatively effortlessly but then is dead even with Obi Wan. The canon answer is that he's his former master, knows his styles, and knows him. That Vader wasn't thinking clearly but the reason Obi Wan lost to Dooku on episode three was due to him being force choked and thrown aside. Why couldn't Vader do the same if he became more powerful than Dooku? Or how about when Obi Wan leapt out of the pit, flipped over Maul, and sliced him in half while he stood and watched then later tells Anakin "You can't win I have the high ground?" except he did the exact same thing before and won?

 

Before others argue with me I know the answer to these questions but let's be honest. I doubt Lucas thought of them. One can point to numerous inconsistencies within the movies themselves. Star Wars has always been this way.

 

Well first Legends will have NO Canon. We can try and still apply the old rules but that is an exercise in frustration because there is now only one Canon...all others are moot. You keep using yard sticks that now no longer exist.

 

We can say "well before April of 2014 there was C-Canon" but such canon is GONE. It sucks. There were stories we loved. I have always been a Tom Veitch fan (though a bigger fan of his "Light and Darkness War) but it involves canonical characters so it has no substance in the Star Wars Universe.

 

So how do you do this exercise? You even acknowledge the inconsistencies that existed in C-Canon. So do we compare two potentially wildly internally inconsistent narratives, one of which involves a non-canonical version of a canonical character, or we can use what is consistent. If a canonical character use canon a non-canonical character, if from a book use the creator, a game like this...the story as it has progressed.

 

To do anything else is to engage in a debate that only leads in frustration, where the goal posts get moved at the whim of the person. Like one character use the version that makes him the most OP, don't like the character use the version that's " gimped". Example look at some of the narratives here "it was his trinkets and gadgets not him...", basically passive aggressive dismissal. For goodness sakes to use that argument means Bruce Lee could beat Carlos Hathcock (arguably the greatest sniper in history) because Bruce Lee could beat him in a fist fight and Carlos needed a rifle...never mind it allows him to shoot Bruce Lee dead from 1000 meters.

 

Tl;Dr... With the death of all but one canon You either use canon for canon and the consistent Bench mark of a non-canonical character or you are arguing using a " standard" that was crap to begin with and that no longer exists.

[Rhyltran]

Well first Legends will have NO Canon. We can try and still apply the old rules but that is an exercise in frustration because there is now only one Canon...all others are moot. You keep using yard sticks that now no longer exist.

 

We can say "well before April of 2014 there was C-Canon" but such canon is GONE. It sucks. There were stories we loved. I have always been a Tom Veitch fan (though a bigger fan of his "Light and Darkness War) but it involves canonical characters so it has no substance in the Star Wars Universe.

 

So how do you do this exercise? You even acknowledge the inconsistencies that existed in C-Canon. So do we compare two potentially wildly internally inconsistent narratives, one of which involves a non-canonical version of a canonical character, or we can use what is consistent. If a canonical character use canon a non-canonical character, if from a book use the creator, a game like this...the story as it has progressed.

 

To do anything else is to engage in a debate that only leads in frustration, where the goal posts get moved at the whim of the person. Like one character use the version that makes him the most OP, don't like the character use the version that's " gimped". Example look at some of the narratives here "it was his trinkets and gadgets not him...", basically passive aggressive dismissal. For goodness sakes to use that argument means Bruce Lee could beat Carlos Hathcock (arguably the greatest sniper in history) because Bruce Lee could beat him in a fist fight and Carlos needed a rifle...never mind it allows him to shoot Bruce Lee dead from 1000 meters.

 

Tl;Dr... With the death of all but one canon You either use canon for canon and the consistent Bench mark of a non-canonical character or you are arguing using a " standard" that was crap to begin with and that no longer exists.

 

This logic is still flawed. Going by this logic you cannot compare Vitiate to Sidious. Vitiate is non-canon. Sidious is. This is my entire argument. The moment you argue using a non-canonical character you're arguing Non-canon. Sorry this is why it's simple. Keep Legends and Canon seperate. I'd argue when the new movies come out arguing Kylo Ren (the new sith) is an exercise in futility against Vitiate. Why should we do that? Vitiate isn't part of Disney's Canon. It's no different than arguing Batman vs Scorpion from MK.

 

Legends is not canon is Disney's eyes but in the end Legends will not having anything added to it. Nothing will be added or removed. Call it fan-fiction or whatever. Legends might as well be it's own continuity. There's no point in including Disney Canon to Legends when it's not accepting Disney Canon and you can still use G,C,T Canon as long as it's from before Disney's announcement. Why? It was built on the backbone of it. Legends was built with G,C,T in mind. It still applies but only to Legends and only up until the buyout.

 

Legends has been frozen in place and to say there absolutely is no continuity is kind of stretching it. Take the Legacy comics. They still exist with the continuity in mind regarding all post ROTJ happening before it. Legends has continuity within itself. Also most of the people who try to take when a character is at their weakest as opposed to their most powerful typically aren't taken seriously in most debates. This isn't the only star wars forum but on just about every forum on the net has their own method of making debate simpler and it's honestly the simplest way of doing it.

 

Continue as if nothing has changed. Legends is Legends Disney is Disney. Canon is Canon Non Canon is Non Canon.

[Leaveshill]

Your knowledge of Star Wars is not very good. This is so wrong it's hard to know where to begin. Luke being a fledgling, Vader being weak, SWTOR sith/jedi on a whole being better than prequel era jedi (lol), etc. As for you not understanding why they can be stronger? Styles, forms, techniques, etc get better overtime. The prequel era jedi had thousands of years to perfect their art.

 

He was weak. He had almost no combat-training... how can someone without combat training be "the most powerful ever"? They cannot.

If someone write a book and he tries to cover a flaw, then the flaw is still obvious. Luke was a fledling compared to the best. It's natural, he had NO training. A few sessions with Obi-wan and one with Yoda? Not really impressive.

 

And no, fighting doesn't need to get better over time. Evolution NEED to be pushed. That's why people in our modern world are becoming dumber (IQ dropping) and people are becoming fatter and fatter. Why's that?

Because they don't have to do anything. The modern Jedi would be weak as they don't HAVE to be strong. Humans cannot evolve because of "will", they must be pushed. Jedi would not be any different. The Iron law of nature is ; change will not and cannot occur without motivation. Very few humans are capable of improving themselves for the sake of self development.

The Jedi are no different.

The Jedi would be weak as they never fight, or at least rarely fight, other force users in "fatal combat", and their "new" fighting would not improve. How can you improve? They're improving their knowledge and skills in keeping their young ones "emotionless"; probably.

 

Modern soldiers and generals aren't any better than in the middle ages. Alexander the great is a much more cunning commander than our modern. Name any "greats" in modern times. Hitler? He was the "closest", and that madman lost the war due to his arrogance and his lack of will to let tactics rule his political views.

 

This is how the world is. We don't improve "rapidly," the only thing that improves is our technology. Fighting with lightsaber will never be any different, some new styles will be made but what makes you think that the new is superior? Maybe harder to counter because it's new and unknown, but that advantage is lost quickly.

 

Don't assume that having peace makes you strong. In Europe, this istant, people are becoming weaker and weaker. As in USA. Wars breeds hard men, and having long peace is damaging for human nature. It makes us not just weak, but pathetic. Fat and lazy, incapable of standing up for ourselves.

 

And the Jedi are no different. They would still be "guardians"; but they would no longer be warriors. And this difference is huge.

 

The one that lives for war is ALWAYS better prepared for war than someone living for "Peace".

And your argument "Lucas said that it's the golden generation".

If Lucas said "The most powerful Sith ever was Maul", would you accept it?

I look at the movies, I read, and I think. Accepting someone's word because he said so is totally wrong.

What if Tolkien had said "The elves of the new era was stronger than the elves of the old era"? That would be 100% wrong as they're not even capable of fighting anymore, instead fleeing.

 

The same here. They're "golden" to protect people incapable of accepting new change. As people hate the "new" SW movies for being "blashpemy".

Lucas likely protects you by saying "DW about the new stuff, because the movies are the golden era!"""

 

But no war means weak soldiers. Do you think that this world could win the battle "won" in ww2? No.

Our soldiers are weak, our people weaker, and that after less than a hundred years.

The Jedi has hundreds of years with peace. Their strenght has faded, their bravery died and their ability to lead armies crumbled.

Like our modern leaders, degenerated due to ideological peace at their borders. It only takes a generation to ruin the world, to bring weakness into the fold.

And the Jedi are weak. Their fighers turned into scholars, their warriors into "guardians" with little to no combat experience. Maybe some operations from time to time, like our "veterans".

 

I have NO doubt that you know much more about me about the lore, about the feats of different Jedi and Sith. Of course you do, I can see that your knowledge on the subject is great. Don't get me wrong.

 

But the "golden generation" cannot be golden as they have not seen war, not waged war, not seen bloodshed on a massive scale. They are weak, unprepared and they deserved Order 66 for their lack of vision. Now, stronger Jedi will emerge from the hardship of the New Order following the defeat of the Galactic Empire.

 

This golden generation was nothing but politicans and scholar, unable to defend themselves or the republic. Not ready for wars, they had not even thought about it.

 

IF that is the golden era, then the Jedi has really been a pathetic order, filled with religious filth and carried by military leaders without Force that has won them wars. Because great wars breed great soldiers, peace-periods bring weakness.

[Rhyltran]

He was weak. He had almost no combat-training... how can someone without combat training be "the most powerful ever"? They cannot.

If someone write a book and he tries to cover a flaw, then the flaw is still obvious. Luke was a fledling compared to the best. It's natural, he had NO training. A few sessions with Obi-wan and one with Yoda? Not really impressive.

 

And no, fighting doesn't need to get better over time. Evolution NEED to be pushed. That's why people in our modern world are becoming dumber (IQ dropping) and people are becoming fatter and fatter. Why's that?

Because they don't have to do anything. The modern Jedi would be weak as they don't HAVE to be strong. Humans cannot evolve because of "will", they must be pushed. Jedi would not be any different. The Iron law of nature is ; change will not and cannot occur without motivation. Very few humans are capable of improving themselves for the sake of self development.

The Jedi are no different.

The Jedi would be weak as they never fight, or at least rarely fight, other force users in "fatal combat", and their "new" fighting would not improve. How can you improve? They're improving their knowledge and skills in keeping their young ones "emotionless"; probably.

 

Modern soldiers and generals aren't any better than in the middle ages. Alexander the great is a much more cunning commander than our modern. Name any "greats" in modern times. Hitler? He was the "closest", and that madman lost the war due to his arrogance and his lack of will to let tactics rule his political views.

 

This is how the world is. We don't improve "rapidly," the only thing that improves is our technology. Fighting with lightsaber will never be any different, some new styles will be made but what makes you think that the new is superior? Maybe harder to counter because it's new and unknown, but that advantage is lost quickly.

 

Don't assume that having peace makes you strong. In Europe, this istant, people are becoming weaker and weaker. As in USA. Wars breeds hard men, and having long peace is damaging for human nature. It makes us not just weak, but pathetic. Fat and lazy, incapable of standing up for ourselves.

 

And the Jedi are no different. They would still be "guardians"; but they would no longer be warriors. And this difference is huge.

 

The one that lives for war is ALWAYS better prepared for war than someone living for "Peace".

And your argument "Lucas said that it's the golden generation".

If Lucas said "The most powerful Sith ever was Maul", would you accept it?

I look at the movies, I read, and I think. Accepting someone's word because he said so is totally wrong.

What if Tolkien had said "The elves of the new era was stronger than the elves of the old era"? That would be 100% wrong as they're not even capable of fighting anymore, instead fleeing.

 

The same here. They're "golden" to protect people incapable of accepting new change. As people hate the "new" SW movies for being "blashpemy".

Lucas likely protects you by saying "DW about the new stuff, because the movies are the golden era!"""

 

But no war means weak soldiers. Do you think that this world could win the battle "won" in ww2? No.

Our soldiers are weak, our people weaker, and that after less than a hundred years.

The Jedi has hundreds of years with peace. Their strenght has faded, their bravery died and their ability to lead armies crumbled.

Like our modern leaders, degenerated due to ideological peace at their borders. It only takes a generation to ruin the world, to bring weakness into the fold.

And the Jedi are weak. Their fighers turned into scholars, their warriors into "guardians" with little to no combat experience. Maybe some operations from time to time, like our "veterans".

 

I have NO doubt that you know much more about me about the lore, about the feats of different Jedi and Sith. Of course you do, I can see that your knowledge on the subject is great. Don't get me wrong.

 

But the "golden generation" cannot be golden as they have not seen war, not waged war, not seen bloodshed on a massive scale. They are weak, unprepared and they deserved Order 66 for their lack of vision. Now, stronger Jedi will emerge from the hardship of the New Order following the defeat of the Galactic Empire.

 

This golden generation was nothing but politicans and scholar, unable to defend themselves or the republic. Not ready for wars, they had not even thought about it.

 

IF that is the golden era, then the Jedi has really been a pathetic order, filled with religious filth and carried by military leaders without Force that has won them wars. Because great wars breed great soldiers, peace-periods bring weakness.

 

"I reject Canon and replace it with my own interpretation." Sorry but you're blatantly ignoring Canon. Don't expect someone to argue with you seriously. There's no point.

[tunewalker]

As technology in star wars improves. Those that use it improve relative to force users, as they have better tech to fight the saber wielders with. As such Force users on average need to keep up with the hiking Technology with out upgrading tech themselves thus the average Force user needs to be stronger to survive to Knight hood.

 

Also the trials from Apprentice to Master didnt change.... The Trial of Skill was still a mandatory to becoming a Jedi. In fact during war times, they often become more lacks on ALL of the trials (skill included) simply so they can have more Knights to send to more locations around the galaxy. So during war time the Average skill of Jedi Knights, actually usually goes down...

 

 

Of course the most powerful doesnt matter what era they are from. Sidious was confirmed the most powerful so long ago its not even funny, and this conversation comes up every time a new "Powerful" Sith Sorceror shows up in lore, and every time the people in charge of star wars are asked, "who was the most powerful sith lord in history" they say Sidious.

Edited January 10, 2015 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

"I reject Canon and replace it with my own interpretation." Sorry but you're blatantly ignoring Canon. Don't expect someone to argue with you seriously. There's no point.

 

Honestly, I have a ton of sources on hand right now that could prove pretty much everything in that post wrong. I just don't have the time to post it all.

[Ghisallo]

This logic is still flawed. Going by this logic you cannot compare Vitiate to Sidious. Vitiate is non-canon. Sidious is. This is my entire argument. The moment you argue using a non-canonical character you're arguing Non-canon. Sorry this is why it's simple. Keep Legends and Canon seperate. I'd argue when the new movies come out arguing Kylo Ren (the new sith) is an exercise in futility against Vitiate. Why should we do that? Vitiate isn't part of Disney's Canon. It's no different than arguing Batman vs Scorpion from MK.

 

Legends is not canon is Disney's eyes but in the end Legends will not having anything added to it. Nothing will be added or removed. Call it fan-fiction or whatever. Legends might as well be it's own continuity. There's no point in including Disney Canon to Legends when it's not accepting Disney Canon and you can still use G,C,T Canon as long as it's from before Disney's announcement. Why? It was built on the backbone of it. Legends was built with G,C,T in mind. It still applies but only to Legends and only up until the buyout.

 

Legends has been frozen in place and to say there absolutely is no continuity is kind of stretching it. Take the Legacy comics. They still exist with the continuity in mind regarding all post ROTJ happening before it. Legends has continuity within itself. Also most of the people who try to take when a character is at their weakest as opposed to their most powerful typically aren't taken seriously in most debates. This isn't the only star wars forum but on just about every forum on the net has their own method of making debate simpler and it's honestly the simplest way of doing it.

 

Continue as if nothing has changed. Legends is Legends Disney is Disney. Canon is Canon Non Canon is Non Canon.

 

The first point sums it up and you are the one who has been dodging it. Sidious is Canon. He matters. Vitiate is NOT canon so he doesn't matter. As such this conversation should have been dead as of April of 2014. It is actually your logic that is flawed, but understandably so because you want to engage in such debates that are, in essence, pointless.

 

Disney has said, in essence... WE DEFINE SIDIOUS (or whatever character is now introduced as they are not going to follow the same "doesn't matter how craptastic the story is so long as it make me money" that Lucas did) you MUST use their definition of Sidious.

 

So if you want to use him you use their definition. Once that is locked in you need a consistent definition from the non-canon (glad you finally acknowledged it as non-canon btw and stop the <insert letter>-canon crap) character. That means using the character's creators vision. This provides as close to a balanced field as you are going to get.

 

You mention continuity but as I have said and will say no more, the continuity has only been consistent with names places etc. It has been CRAPTASTIC when it comes to things like power, logical consistency in terms of technology (for gosh sakes the sun crusher?!?! *** on that) force power etc. Additionally I think you miss the implication of your last paragraph. Legends is non-canon. Which means... in the end... it is crappola. Each story is in essence it's own bubble universe. The only dang reason the whole letter canon system was devised is because people like you and I actually care about such things and even then because Lucas was more interested in money than in continuity they simply used he thinnest of veils and then justified the inconsistencies by saying stuff like "the fog of..." insert your favorite rationalization... in interviews.

 

Like I said, am I Darth OCD...yepper. More than once my wife has said "okay *********** Mr. Spock where are the pointy ears" but it is what it is.

[Ghisallo]

"I reject Canon and replace it with my own interpretation." Sorry but you're blatantly ignoring Canon. Don't expect someone to argue with you seriously. There's no point.

 

Wait... didn't you acknowledge a post or two before that there is NO Canon outside the 6 screenplays and 2 cartoon series. As such there is no solution to the argument you just noted util Disney says so.

 

Listen I know it sucks everyone but as of April 2014 Disney hit a BIG reboot button outside of those sources. Deal with it.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Edit: Wait nvrm, was thinking the wrong thing. Edited January 10, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Ghisallo]

 

But no war means weak soldiers. Do you think that this world could win the battle "won" in ww2? No.

Our soldiers are weak, our people weaker, and that after less than a hundred years.

 

Just have to object to this bit... not because I have any delusions of grandeur but because I served and had Grandfathers, Great Uncles etc that served. When we compared training stories... in detail, they routinely said "we trained harder...you train smarter and hard, just not as hard. You guys are stronger and better coming out of boot."

 

it's no different than sports really. Due to better science and learning from the past athletes are just better. It extends to military training. The difference between then and now has NOTHING to do with the capabilities of people and everything to do with the fact that it was far easier before the 24 hour news cycle to see things as black and white. That guy is the good guy....this guy the bad guy. You didn't have a nightly running of the body count. You didn't see the cost of war instantly transported into your living room.

 

That isn't a matter of strength or weakness, it's a matter of perception and world view.

 

Signed...former US Army 19D and apparently was good enough to be accepted to Selection (though I turned it down), in the days before you could think about enlisting as an 18x. Scouts out!