PvP Sentinel : When do you leave the fight?

[EclatDeGivre]

Hey Guys,

 

I was thinking about the main flaw of our beloved sentinel : survivability. As squishy melee dps, we are obviously the first to fall. But simple tips like trying to fight out of the LoS (like not in the center of the empty area) might help.

 

To me, there are 3 solutions to these problems

 

- Defensive CDs management

- Good mates (1 tank, 1 heal at least)

- Escape management

 

While the 2 first are obvious and already discussed many times, the last one is not really discussed (or I missed the good topics abt it ^^'). By escape management I mean sacrificing dps for survivability by "moving away" from the fight. I think this is the part that most beginners (me included) have trouble with because of our lack of "fight awareness". On top of that, people tend to be greedy, and a low life running away has the effect of everybody leaving their primary target, no matter how critical it is to finish it, to try and steal the kill (which in most cases is stupid). On Top of that, I think most range class tend to stay away from the fight. Thus by deciding to chase you, they get closer, cannot keep on with their classic rotation, and often burn their energy/force/ammo in instants. The result being that even if you may not survive and lower slightly your dps, your team will get the edge.

 

So here is my questions :

 

When are you deciding "ok now I back off"?

When are you poping transcendance over inspiration or Zen for survival purposes?

When are you moving towards your healers sacrificing your dps for the mere hope of getting healed =)

 

As a draft and a start for this thread, I will give my 2 cents

 

 

 

When you are off defensive CDs pop and your life is going below 30% stop ramboing and go back home. You may not survive but you may be saved by a healer that was barely out of range, or saved by a mate having a cc available.

 

 

 

When you get hit by more than 2 ppl force camo leave the fight (or come back when they change target =p)

 

 

 

When you get low HP full resolve 30 centering, pop transcendance and leave. Trying to kill your target before dying is not as good as surviving.

 

 

 

Always use strafe, as you can withdraw and send some Bladestorm/Crippling throws.

 

 

 

Use defensive force leaps. Have you ever thanked an operative/assassin for poping behind your healer so you can instantly safely quit a fight getting bad?

 

 

 

Always take defensive forms from combat tree. Stacking centering thanks to Dots while trying to flee will give you free transcendance.

 

 

 

Try to fight where your friends can see you but your ennemies don't. Master LoS =)

 

 

Btw as a conclusion, I will add that I love Sentinels, not because they are cool with their 2 sabers, but because they are extremely tactical and challenging. I noticed that I was much much aware of the fight since I started my sent. When playing Gunslinger/Vanguard/Guardian, I often wondered what I could improve. In sent, I never wonder what I can improve because the fight suddenly is much more complex when you constantly have to watch how many is coming to kick your ***, who is still there to save it, and, well, who is stupid enough to be apart from the big fight so you can hit some good 1v1 that reminds you that your AC is OP =). The sent path is the toughest, but also the most rewarding.

 

Did I say that sents are OP? Well just in case some of us forgot : Sents are really OP xD

[ShiroRX]

Were actually in a near permanent Guarded by the Force/unkillable state with guard+rebuke+taunt and some spot heals.

 

My best friend just happens to be a melee tank.

 

--

 

On another note, there is rarely escape from a fight in any situation. None of our defensive cooldowns are particularly good at creating distance away from enemies unless its a very LOS heavy place like Voidstar. If I get involved in a fight, its probably till death...mine or an enemies, or a lot of the time, both. Even charging 3 people, you can often walk away with one corpse on your hands.

Edited February 13, 2012 by ShiroRX

[EclatDeGivre]

Well actually we do :

 

Defensive force leap

Force Camo

Transcendance

 

Then yeah somehow my point was also about not fighting in open area...

 

It is true though that VS is not really escape-prone, however with the 3 abilities listed above, there are plenty of occasions to escape from a fight.

 

I also do not think with someone guarding you, it is wise to withdraw, as the tank is buying tome for you to dps. But when your tank is down, will you try to apply some 2 hits before dying, or try to force leap someone focusing a caster for instance, and aim for respawn/healers/health bonuses/meditation(after running far far away ^^) ?

 

As en sent you can play the berserk as far as your defensive CDs are up and you have <= 2 ennemies focusing you.

 

Then I'm low so maybe you are right ^^'

[Superpescado]

I am never the first to fall unless I'm am focused/chain stunned with my cc breaker down.

[mattnaik]

I use Transcendence a LOT. Even more than Zen. The increased mobility to the entire party IMO is much better than dot crits and minor healing. This is my way of playing more a utility role in PvP. I still am in the top 3 in damage most of the time but it's not my main goal.

[Therealkoop]

Actually our survivability is quite high. It takes a lot more work to drop my sentinel than it does my vanguard (VG is assault specced however).

 

Its one of those things you just have to feel out. If im 2v1 ill drop one of them and run away using transcendence/camo. If im 1v5 im pretty screwed and ill either drop all my CDs to stay alive (guarding a point), or I will force camo, run, and leap to a distant target.

 

If in a 5v5 ill stick to a priority target. Once i start getting focused ill rebuke and continue to fight untill i get around 50% or things get too hot. At that point ill camo, sprint off, and leap back into my main target. Usually I can "drop aggro" for long enough to drop my target. Once I do it takes pressure off the healers to get me back up, and I can always use GBTF.

 

I find that using the speed buffs and camo, you can control how people attack you pretty easily. Most people wont pursue you leaving you free to weave in and out causing massive damage. Sometimes people will recognize me and 1 or 2 jerks will just focus me the entire match, but not usually.

[BurntSushi]

As Watchman I hit rebuke before I leap, then Valorous Call and then Zen. Overload Saber and DoT him up if the fight goes south when I hit 50-60% I hit Saber Ward if it looks like I can take one out, if not I hit Force camo (specced to take 0 damage when it is active) and then Trancendence and **** of town until I get back up.

[Grappas]

Sometimes to distract one node while we are capping another I will jump into a group of 3-4 imps. blow all my defensive cooldowns+health pot and still kill atleast one before I die. I think we are durable as ever.

 

Watchman spec by the way so I do get heals on dot crits.

[vindianajones]

Never. Never surrender.

[Jeffor]

We're allowed to leave??

[BloodbathNBeyond]

After the second chain stun, I hit Force Camo, heh.

[Rakimou]

It's hard to quantize my playstyle.

I force camo away when I know that I'm about to get *****. There are many factors which determine that:

- can I bail? Is someone capping something he shouldn't cap?

- what CDs do I have? Maybe I can pop saber ward + med and live a bit longer.

- who is targeting me?

 

Sometimes I force camo, wait for a couple of seconds and jump back into a fight. Kids have really low attention spans these days.

 

I use transcendence as an escape tool when my force camo is on CD and I feel like I can get away, e.g. my allies are nearby. If I know that I'll die anyways, I pop zen and keep mashing.

Awe is also a decent tool to get away in combination with transcendence. Most of the time I use it offensively though.

[McVade]

Well actually we do :

 

Defensive force leap

 

Heh, from my experience, there's no such thing. All that happens is the same 2-3 people who were tunnel-visioned on you before give chase... and you've made a 3rd or 4th person interested in you who may have not been before.

 

To OPs question: I never really try to escape unless it's Voidstar. Healing buff is close and accessible within a Force Camo. Force Camo is the only actual ability we have that encourages others to find a new target. I use it if 2+ are interested in me and hope they find someone else to have fun with while I sneak up behind a ranged and 1v1 him (with luck)

[Zag_Stratos]

Here's a brief run on how I play... It works for me

 

 

PATIENCE

 

If there’s one thing I’ve learned in my early days is that Sentinels are fragile and they cannot just jump into a fight and zoom their sabers like nobody’s business. So obviously, in a 8 an 8 situation, jumping in first is a terrible idea. I usually jump into a fight third or even last if I have too but a bit patience pays off.

 

PICK YOUR FIGHTS

 

Ok! Cool, you’ve learned to be patient but you still get your face crushed. Why? Is it because you decided to attack a healer that is surrounded by 3 other healers? Yeah… that’s right. Even if that little duo of Sorcerer looks delicious, 1 on 2 is already a bad odd and fighting two healers that can simply assist each other all day will simply get you killed. Choose your fights and learn your limits. What I find that works best for me is quite simple… I stay near the healers and casters. When they start attacking someone, I rush their target and assist them. If I notice a healer trying to save his buddy, I re-focus my attention him and my goal is simply to break his focus. Doesn’t matter if I don’t kill him, I might even vanish the moment the initial target is dead but that one less person to worry about. I pick and re-pick my fights on a very constant basis. I don’t just lock on someone and bash him until he’s dead, I will sometime just harass him and then move on to more important targets. You didn’t get a kill but you’ve done some damage and survived. You’re still in the fight and probably still high on health.

 

Healers and you = Love boat

 

Save a healer a few times and I can promise you, all his heals will soon be directed on you. It’s a love love situation and you will both benefit from it. In most fights, I have my guild protecting me but when I don’t I quickly make myself important for them. You are a Sentinel and by definition, it means guard. Guard your team and protect them, kills, medals and MVP will follow.

 

 

Fight another day

 

So you’re fighting a Sorcerer and he’s 200hp from dying but all your CD are up and a reinforcement is quickly move in to kill you. Sure, you could wait 3 seconds and get that one kill or you can walk away and keep fighting. In most situation, walking away from dire situation is better. Doesn’t matter if he’s nearly dead, the fact is, you’re alive and those 3 seconds may help keep that turret up. Sure, you could probably get a kill and then run away but you’re already playing with the odds here. Keep your odds positive.

 

 

Stay with your team

 

Often when I die is simply because I went off my merry way. I’m in the heat of battle and suddenly notice that all my allies are 200 meters away. I stay near your allies and if you’re too far from them, stop fighting and get back in position. Staying near your allies ensures your survival. I can’t stress that one enough. I often see a Sentinel force leap 30 meters away from the group only to meet a quick end.

 

Stimpacks!

 

A crazy life saver! Use them when you need that extra boost of life to either run away or get these critical kills.

 

 

Force Leap and Awe is a great escape tool

 

You’re fighting someone and suddenly you start getting zerg… Scan your surroundings and if someone is far out, force leap to him, awe and walk away. It usually works well! You can also Awe and force leap but pray the target will not slow you down. It’s a gambling but it may help!

[TheWhiskey]

My normal playstyle for my sentinel is:

 

WARGARBLARGHBLARGH I'M ON YOUR FACE WARGARBLARGHBLARGH

 

You only need to run away if you team isn't supporting you properly, which is unfortunately nearly all pub games.

[kaberf]

My normal playstyle for my sentinel is:

 

WARGARBLARGHBLARGH I'M ON YOUR FACE WARGARBLARGHBLARGH

 

You only need to run away if you team isn't supporting you properly, which is unfortunately nearly all pub games.

 

^^^^ This had me laughing out loud.

[Psybin]

I run away all the time. Usually when all my other cooldowns are blown.

I always use rebuke when I get damaged. I usually use sabre ward around 50% hp or so. At 10-20% I'll use guarded/medpack.

If after all that I'm still going to die soon, and there is nothing urgent to do (like stop that vital cap or whatever), I will quite happily camo/trans off.

Either try to make it to a heal pick up, or a friendly healer. Sometimes you can get out of combat and use out of combat healing.

Or I'll use that extra time to go back in on a suicide charge. If you gain an extra 20-30s or so of time before your enemy caps, that can quite often be enough time for the cavalry to arrive. Sure there's a good chance you'll die, but defending a turret you have, is WAY better than trying to take one.

Even just giving a healer an extra 5-10 or so seconds can mean the difference between a death/lose and you rofl stomping.

 

Take for example, going for the left turret in alderaan. You are alone as per usual as everyone else mindless zergs middle. A whole ton of enemy come at you. You pop all your def CDs, last maybe 10s.

Camo/trans, run around the back of the turret. Wait 5s or so, quickly run around, leap, sweep, awe - drop dead. Yes you died, but you should have kept the turret out of their hands long enough. Unless your team suck but there's no helping that.

[Parathax]

I usually only leave the fight if I'm the target of focus fire, or if it's 4 v 1 or 5 v 1 and it's clear that nobody is around or coming for backup.

 

If I have GBTF available, then I never leave a 1v1-1v3 fight. I'll pop that towards the end and see what happens.

 

I would never leave a fight at 30-50% health. I might think about ducking out at about 15-20% if it's clearly not going my way.

[Parathax]

Take for example, going for the left turret in alderaan. You are alone as per usual as everyone else mindless zergs middle. A whole ton of enemy come at you. You pop all your def CDs, last maybe 10s.

Camo/trans, run around the back of the turret. Wait 5s or so, quickly run around, leap, sweep, awe - drop dead. Yes you died, but you should have kept the turret out of their hands long enough. Unless your team suck but there's no helping that.

 

^ I do this all the time.

[IronFirewind]

Here's a brief run on how I play... It works for me

 

 

PATIENCE

 

If there’s one thing I’ve learned in my early days is that Sentinels are fragile and they cannot just jump into a fight and zoom their sabers like nobody’s business. So obviously, in a 8 an 8 situation, jumping in first is a terrible idea. I usually jump into a fight third or even last if I have too but a bit patience pays off.

 

PICK YOUR FIGHTS

 

Ok! Cool, you’ve learned to be patient but you still get your face crushed. Why? Is it because you decided to attack a healer that is surrounded by 3 other healers? Yeah… that’s right. Even if that little duo of Sorcerer looks delicious, 1 on 2 is already a bad odd and fighting two healers that can simply assist each other all day will simply get you killed. Choose your fights and learn your limits. What I find that works best for me is quite simple… I stay near the healers and casters. When they start attacking someone, I rush their target and assist them. If I notice a healer trying to save his buddy, I re-focus my attention him and my goal is simply to break his focus. Doesn’t matter if I don’t kill him, I might even vanish the moment the initial target is dead but that one less person to worry about. I pick and re-pick my fights on a very constant basis. I don’t just lock on someone and bash him until he’s dead, I will sometime just harass him and then move on to more important targets. You didn’t get a kill but you’ve done some damage and survived. You’re still in the fight and probably still high on health.

 

 

These two points alone are the best advice you can ever give to a Sent.

 

Usually I hang out either behind a pillar or near the healers until a target presents themselves and pounce. A Sentinel is a predator, you need to act like one.

Edited February 14, 2012 by IronFirewind

[EclatDeGivre]

Thank you all guys for you input and especially Zag_Stratos.

 

I am actually more hunting than watching. My favorite prays are inquisitors, top dps (that hide and pew pew hard), and lone targets, or hiding targets. I fear no one in a 1v1 situation so I try to create these often.

 

However this notion of guarding healers, on top of being quite RP, is new to me and I shall consider it more carefully. Unfortunately I do not really like to rely on others (pub proved me many times it was a bad idea) and my guild is not experienced enough yet (still improving though). But yeah it does seem effective, team prone and very gratifying.

 

Every situation is unique and objectives are always the most important. However I'm trying to create a line of conduct for both enhancing my decision making process (work is bad for mental health) and pull my guildmates with me.

 

@BurntSushi : I slightly disagree with the use of Rebuke though. I never use it before being hit. Because rebuke only lasts 6s if not hit, I would not take the risk to burn 2-3 seconds every time I use leap. Rebuke + Leap, 1-2 sec lost, the time your target notices you and react by hitting you, 1-2 sec lost... not worth it to me.

 

@Jeffor : By leave I mean get away from the fight to heal and come back later. Not leaving the WZ of course.

 

So to sum things up, when you get low on life withdraw when :

 

0) Your objective is not in danger

1) All defensive CDs down

2) 3 or more ppl focusing you or 2 healers/1 healer 1 tank

3) A healer of your team is behind or heading to you (tough to know)

4) You really have a chance to escape -> Force Camo or no big CC left to your ennemy

 

 

Then on general advices :

 

1) Hold the line, move with the team, don't rush, don't be the first to force leap

I actually do not like force leaping in the beginning of the fight. I prefer running and leap after bump/stun or after an operative/assassin pop behind a mate.

 

2) Protect your healers

I would add hug the ennemy's healers as they are my favorite pray ^^

 

3) Keep cool, don't burn your CDs for a low life running away ennemy

 

4) Use your defensive force leap when you have a target that is already busy (to avoid him targeting you instead). If possible force leap/awe/transcendance.

 

I have an other question for watchmen though :

 

When you are at 20/30% health, no defensive CDs, 2 ppl focusing you, 30 centering, 5v5 fight situation.

-> Do you pop Zen to try to burn one down and slightly healing your mates?

-> Or pop transcendance knowing that you are probably the only one really needing it (the +10% ranged defense is neglectable to me)?

 

If my target is not the only healer, I would pop transcendance as the DoT healing is nice but not that powerful.

[KruelhandJorb]

running is for Inquisitors who have their bubble on cd.

 

and they're good at it too.

[Sdspecter]

At 28, I still have not come into my full power. However I do not usually run at this time. Usually if I am close to death I usually try and target a group of 3 or more, force leap>overload sabre>cauterize (if up)>force sweep(spam till dead). You can throw out a lot of damage and get them to break Target a lot of times before they take you out. They switch focus to you, you die, and usually their original target can get the upper hand or escape. So there is my lemming answer to low health. Just jump off the cliff.....