Juggs squishy with weak dps

[Ansa]

Sorry what did you say about Juggs having more utility?

 

Bloodthirst

Instant

Cooldown: 300s

Requires and converts 30 stacks of Fury to issue Bloodthirst to you and your party, increasing all damage and healing dealt by 15%. Lasts 15 seconds.

 

15% increase for 15 seconds. On a FIVE minute cooldown. Real?

So many people get pissed about their Marauders being useless, and lo and behold - they always go for the "Bloodthirst" card.

[Actua]

THe amount of bads in this thread is astonishing.

 

All issues here can be fixed with L2P

[KingFink]

Bloodthirst

Instant

Cooldown: 300s

Requires and converts 30 stacks of Fury to issue Bloodthirst to you and your party, increasing all damage and healing dealt by 15%. Lasts 15 seconds.

 

15% increase for 15 seconds. On a FIVE minute cooldown. Real?

So many people get pissed about their Marauders being useless, and lo and behold - they always go for the "Bloodthirst" card.

 

Bloodthirst is awesome. I'll always take a marauder when I'm playing a Vengeance DPS. GOTTA HAVE MY SLAVE TO CAST BLOODTHIRST FOR ME!!!

 

Also, kind of a bummer....bloodthirst only hits 4 people as far as I can tell. Gotta stack them dps in the maras party...and if you have 5 dps you gotta draw straws

 

 

Also, this isn't directed at you personally but...why can't people understand that Rage is the PVP spec and Vengeance is the PVE spec?

 

I mean...Burst vs Sustainable...should be pretty easy to understand.

Edited February 14, 2012 by KingFink

[Assaultrooper]

Ok lets take a balance... in ranks from 1-5...

 

Assassins:

 

Survaivability, (same as juggs with a 5 secs immunity instead of the heal + stealth + vanish) Lets give it a 3.

 

Dps?? Awesome. 5

 

Movibilty: Force Speed. 2

 

 

Marauders Dps:

 

Survavibility: The Best melee survival. (20% almost permanent reduction, saber ward, + immunity and vanish) 4.

 

Dps?? Average... 4

 

Mobility: Not as good as Juggs. 3.

 

Juggs:

Survival: Squishiest of all melee. 2.

 

Dps: None. 2

 

Mobility: Best Mobility yet. 5

 

 

So as you can see in this game u trade alot of dps and survival for mobility... which is basically been able to charge back and forth every 45 secs..... Is it fair? IMO no. Mobility =/= dps, nor is it exactly that big of a deal considering the huge trade of survival too....

 

All in all its not the best time to be a Jugg....

[dorkvid]

Ok lets take a balance... in ranks from 1-5...

 

Assassins:

 

Survaivability, (same as juggs with a 5 secs immunity instead of the heal + stealth + vanish) Lets give it a 3.

 

Dps?? Awesome. 5

 

Movibilty: Force Speed. 2

 

 

Marauders Dps:

 

Survavibility: The Best melee survival. (20% almost permanent reduction, saber ward, + immunity and vanish) 4.

 

Dps?? Average... 4

 

Mobility: Not as good as Juggs. 3.

 

Juggs:

Survival: Squishiest of all melee. 2.

 

Dps: None. 2

 

Mobility: Best Mobility yet. 5

 

 

So as you can see in this game u trade alot of dps and survival for mobility... which is basically been able to charge back and forth every 45 secs..... Is it fair? IMO no. Mobility =/= dps, nor is it exactly that big of a deal considering the huge trade of survival too....

 

All in all its not the best time to be a Jugg....

 

Please, do explain how juggs don't do good dps.

[omninull]

People really need to play. I m just a decent player with no other MMO experience.

When i play warzone with my lvl29 jugg i alway's be on the top op the bord.

 

When i see a lvl49 jugg and i get 4 more medals then him. He is really f4cking something up.

My average game is about 170k damage, 30k protection, 15k healing (frozen water).

 

90% of the people that play pvp don't know how there class works!

 

Jugg is feeling like a god.

 

Pocket healers make anyone feel like a god...

[SintLuciferNL]

Pocket healers make anyone feel like a god...

 

Don't have pocket healers 9 out of 10 times.

 

force charge(2 sec immobilize, 4 sec 20% damage reduction + immunity for knockbacks) -> smash -> force choke -> force push -> force charge -> smash -> etc.

 

The moment they can do something i will still have around 99% health while they are around 50%.

[Midichlorien]

Don't have pocket healers 9 out of 10 times.

 

force charge(2 sec immobilize, 4 sec 20% damage reduction + immunity for knockbacks) -> smash -> force choke -> force push -> force charge -> smash -> etc.

 

The moment they can do something i will still have around 99% health while they are around 50%.

 

..and because they know I can do that (you are right, I really love this combo too, I just feel like Mr. Action), I get focused with my pity 250 expertise, because there aren't many 1v1 in WZ, but many 5v1 :-)

 

Jugs are able to be an annoyance in WZ, but a real pain in the *** is a healing trooper with 500 + expertise, go and try to killl such a guy fast without at least 3 people focusing him.

[SintLuciferNL]

..and because they know I can do that (you are right, I really love this combo too, I just feel like Mr. Action), I get focused with my pity 250 expertise, because there aren't many 1v1 in WZ, but many 5v1 :-)

 

Jugs are able to be an annoyance in WZ, but a real pain in the *** is a healing trooper with 500 + expertise, go and try to killl such a guy fast without at least 3 people focusing him.

 

not level 50 yet

[Midichlorien]

not level 50 yet

 

lvl 50 Juggernaut, lvl 26 sorcerer is rising.

 

Playing some hours PvP every evening and leveling the sorcerer on weekends. To get my PvP daylies done is a longer thing sometimes, because I random group and only Hutball is a WZ where I can shine a bit with my various "jumpskills", but otherwise my mix of T1 PvP and crafted crit gear isn't such great. I had not a single token in my PvP bags yet, only marks :-)

 

As Gearing up will last a while and I want to play PvE too, I am using the general rage build (I do like vengeance more, but rage is just more effective for the PvP system as it is now -> 2.500 damage medal and at least one good burst skill) and my mixed gear has loads of tank stats, which isn't the best choice for PvP, but sometimes I succeed in "bluffing" the enemy by a 17k moral pool :-)

But in general it's like they do smell that I am a "weak" target and on the other side, if there is not a single healer in my random group anyways (oder nobody who bothers to do it) it's pretty irrelevant which target you focus first, just one by one :-)

 

Heavy armor without expertise rating feels like wearing a paperbag in PvP and I definitly realized a difference from 0 to now around 250 expertise. Expertise rules in PvP, its the dominating stat there in my eyes.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Midichlorien

[SintLuciferNL]

my main is lvl50 assassin while i run that in dps spec i feel juggs are god.

[Lorekeeper]

It's interesting to see so many people posting about their pre-50 Jugg's. Juggernaut's scale with gear more then any other class in the game in my experience. Yes, they tend to be weak while leveling because of the motley assortment of orange, blue, and green quest items you're rocking.

 

Once you hit 50.. It's a whole new world. Rage Juggernauts absolutely wreck in pvp. As an Assassin they're by far the scariest class to fight. Their burst is huge, they're probably the hardest class in the game to kite, and they still have all of their nice little cool downs even as a dps spec.

 

Plus.. Did no one bother to see the picture linked earlier in this thread? Juggernaut with 700k+ damage and 12 medals. lol, squishy and bad damage for sure.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Lorekeeper

[Elyx]

Threads like this are hilarious.

 

Please, show me the datamining that proves Juggs do poor DPS. Taking into account, of course, the fact that they have a Tank spec vs. a DPS spec.

 

their DPS in their respective DPS specs is fine.I have yet to see ANY DATA that proves this otherwise. PvP scoreboards are irrelevant. Especially the low ones. High ones are relevant at least if they show numbers that are competitive with other classes high numbers, but still...

 

really guys. Where's the data ? oh yeah, up your Ars* where you pulled all those other opinionated remarks about squishiness and poor DPS. Jugg's do great DPS, always have...in their DPS specs. At this point in time it's unsure if tanking DPS is behind others, though it sounds like empirical data is showing Juggs are having more issues meeting rage timers in groups their tanking for. But that is solely anecdotal at this point, and it only involves Immortal spec.

 

But...unfortunately we will never be able to eliminate ignorance as well as incorrect opinion. Even with DPS meters, people will still hold onto biased opinions with no fact or relevant data to back it up.

 

In the meantime, Juggs are fine. it's perceptions that need to change.

[Actua]

Threads like this are hilarious.

 

Please, show me the datamining that proves Juggs do poor DPS. Taking into account, of course, the fact that they have a Tank spec vs. a DPS spec.

 

their DPS in their respective DPS specs is fine.I have yet to see ANY DATA that proves this otherwise. PvP scoreboards are irrelevant. Especially the low ones. High ones are relevant at least if they show numbers that are competitive with other classes high numbers, but still...

 

really guys. Where's the data ? oh yeah, up your Ars* where you pulled all those other opinionated remarks about squishiness and poor DPS. Jugg's do great DPS, always have...in their DPS specs. At this point in time it's unsure if tanking DPS is behind others, though it sounds like empirical data is showing Juggs are having more issues meeting rage timers in groups their tanking for. But that is solely anecdotal at this point, and it only involves Immortal spec.

 

But...unfortunately we will never be able to eliminate ignorance as well as incorrect opinion. Even with DPS meters, people will still hold onto biased opinions with no fact or relevant data to back it up.

 

In the meantime, Juggs are fine. it's perceptions that need to change.

 

What does a Jugg tanking have anything to do with rage timers, which is essentially a DPS thing.

[Demanoth]

It's interesting to see so many people posting about their pre-50 Jugg's. Juggernaut's scale with gear more then any other class in the game in my experience. Yes, they tend to be weak while leveling because of the motley assortment of orange, blue, and green quest items you're rocking.

 

Once you hit 50.. It's a whole new world. Rage Juggernauts absolutely wreck in pvp. As an Assassin they're by far the scariest class to fight. Their burst is huge, they're probably the hardest class in the game to kite, and they still have all of their nice little cool downs even as a dps spec.

 

Plus.. Did no one bother to see the picture linked earlier in this thread? Juggernaut with 700k+ damage and 12 medals. lol, squishy and bad damage for sure.

 

 

Lets not forget the 3 healers with combined 800k healing or more

[Korevas]

What does a Jugg tanking have anything to do with rage timers, which is essentially a DPS thing.

 

It does, because the other tank classes might actually dish out some damage while tanking (I know for sure about powertech hybrids, not sure about assassins), so they will hold aggro more reliably while tanking and also help to beat enrage timers while juggs struggle to hold aggro through taunts and backhands +threat, which does nothing for damage.

Also bad tanking is always related to rage timers, because good tanking means less set up time and allows for going all out on damage for the dps, while with a bad tank they'll have to hold back and use their aggro decrease more often.

[Onostoolan]

EDIT: The mistake I made was thinking this class could solo tank with healer pet, I'm seeing I should of gone DPS spec with a tank pet for leveling.

 

Can't say I agree with this statement to be honest. Not bering argumentative for the sake of it by the way... I agree with some of the frustrations with Jugg at end game (I'm a level 50 Jugg) - I haven';t done too much at end game just yet (keep letting my head get turned by other classes lol)..and thats partly due to the limitations I feel ... and my own short attention span lol.

 

Anyway... levelling up - I ran a 100% Immortal spec and used Quinn all the time. I kept him geared in greens mainly from quest rewards... basically keeping him "just about" well geared.

 

Never had a problem.. I've solo'd 2x elites at once at a level above me ...and I've survuived the most ridiculous circumstances where I've done a bad pull or something.. thinking I'd die, but somehow managed to survive it.

 

I was showing a couple of mates the other day over at their place... One of my mates is a Marauder ... and he was blown away by the survivability and lack of down-time when moving from pack to pack.

 

When using Quinn... if you're just fighting packs of same-level weak and silvers.. you can have Quinn work in his DPS stance... he'll still heal you but it speeds up the grind... when it comes to elites - switch him into his healing stance and be clever about cooldowns etc.

 

Honestly... the Jugg immortal spec cannot be faulted for its ability to level/grind - no way. I'll agree on the DPS front... but you can't have everything eh?

[Midichlorien]

What does a Jugg tanking have anything to do with rage timers, which is essentially a DPS thing.

 

Some possibilities with an (yet unproved) synergy:

 

-too less threat generation, which leads too less dps from the group

-too less dps generation from the tank itself (while other tank classes may dish out remarkable more dps even while tank specced), which leads to a dps loss for the encounter too.

 

finally: too less dps generation of the tank itself, which leads to less threat generation in Soresu, because threat is based upon your personal dps output and Soreesu just gives a threat bonus on dps -> synergy effect (tooltip of Soresu).

 

Another theory explains threat generation by the sheer number of attacks and therefore independent of personal dps output. If this is true the conclusion above is untrue, but the two points on top may still apply in a weaker form, aka without a synergy effect.

 

This is only theorycrafting without a readable combat log at moment, but my personal guess is, there is something wrong with scaling, not totally screwed, but badly scaled.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Midichlorien

[Actua]

Well, as of now, I can see the DPS argument being valid *if* the DPS between a jugg and other tanks is that big. Would have to be pretty significant.

 

As for threat, I've never, ever, asked any DPS to hold back or have they on their own out of being scared of aggroing. I'm not losing aggro either, and yes, I do use my taunts wisely ( thats what they are used for).

[sludgeviper]

My friend plays Jug and he's pretty pissed with his class. He's pretty ****** at mmo's. He has a full Battlemaster Jug in tank spec and said he lost a one on one fight to a Trooper who had nowhere near as good of gear and just stood still the enitre fight. He considers them to be the best single target pve tank, but worthless at anything else including damage in dps spec. He's giving the game until March to see what they do with the big patch and then he's done if it doesn't agree with him. Hate to see him go cuz he's the GM and was waiting for this game for years.

[SintLuciferNL]

Well i think you buddy did something wrong. If he is in full battlemaster gear and the trooper should destroy. I must say a well played trooper is very hard to kill but not impossible.

 

You just need to interrupt his grav rounds.

[Oneiros_IV]

Oh yeah juggernaut DPS is very good

 

(and will stay awesome in your head until combat log / damage meters are introduced)

[IronScarlet]

My friend plays Jug and he's pretty pissed with his class. He's pretty ****** at mmo's. He has a full Battlemaster Jug in tank spec and said he lost a one on one fight to a Trooper who had nowhere near as good of gear and just stood still the enitre fight. He considers them to be the best single target pve tank, but worthless at anything else including damage in dps spec. He's giving the game until March to see what they do with the big patch and then he's done if it doesn't agree with him. Hate to see him go cuz he's the GM and was waiting for this game for years.

 

lol trooper and BH just spam one button all u have to do is disrupt them. 90% of the time there so confused and shock what happen they sit there. a few more cc and you easilly have the fight. Even if he heals himself, dirsupt keep wacking and he will die.

[Korevas]

Yes, if you think mercs are bad, go fight a well played pyro pt. They'll tear you to shreds, Nearly everything they do ignores armor while they wear heavy themselves, they've got all the interrupts and better stuns, have good mid-range and ok ranged capabilites and get to taunt at range. I *want* to play a juggernaut for style, but at the moment I just can't get myself to it outside of singleplayer.