Spymaster Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 It's not a team game. It's an MMO, meant to provide convincing entertainment for a variety of players, with a variety of interests. You've just told every player in game that if they don't join a party of ringers like you and your crew have done to keep your win percentage up, then this game has nothing for them. That right? This ^ Besides, how are they going to rank a "team".... you can only enter with the same 8 players every time? No, they're going to rank each player individually, and if they form a premade that will give them a team score. This means that pugs can be ranked just as easily as a premade team. Whether or not they allow you to que as an 8 man team I don't know, but I'd rather they not allow it to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) This ^ Besides, how are they going to rank a "team".... you can only enter with the same 8 players every time? No, they're going to rank each player individually, and if they form a premade that will give them a team score. This means that pugs can be ranked just as easily as a premade team. Whether or not they allow you to que as an 8 man team I don't know, but I'd rather they not allow it to be honest. No it wont, players are ofc ranked indicidually, but in pug you dont have any control of group setup, you cant sort any tactics before hand, unlikely ingame either, you cant evaluate player performance in a match by dmg/healing done, objectives done etc. Your next win or loss is based totally on luck you cant have any control over. If you think ranked matches are gonna be for anyone else than 8 man premades, you are delusional. For those people that dont want organized competive PvP there is normal Wzs to play just like now, rated ones will be "endgame" of PvP. Edited February 25, 2012 by Forsbacka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) No it wont, players are foc ranked indicidually, but in oug you dont have any control of group setup, you cant sort any tactics before hand, unlikely ingame either, you cant evaluate player performance in winning or losing by dmg/healing done, objectives done etc. Your next win or loss is based totally on luck you cant have any control over. If you think ranked matches are gonna be for anyone else than 8 man premades, you are delusional. For those people that dont want organized competive PvP there is normal Wzs to play just like now, rated ones will be "endgame" of PvP. You're totally missing the point. The ranking system already makes matches competitive, so if a pug of 8 individual players with great individual scores happens to be in the queue, they can be placed together and make a fine team. Will that happen often? Probably not. Will a team of 8 great individual players be able to beat premade teams? Depends on exactly how good the premade is.... but it doesn't matter because by benefit of having ranked matches there is absolutely no point in keeping pugs out of it at all. Premades will already be fighting premades and pugs will already be fighting pugs. Only bottom of the list premades would be likely to have such bad scores that they end up fighting pugs very often, and even then it would be the best pug players who reach scores high enough where they might face a premade group. What you're fighting for is a system in which your ranked match queue is basically empty because no one is allowed to even enter without a full 8 man team. That would be pretty stupid, especially when players will be ranked individually anyway. Edited February 25, 2012 by Spymaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) You're totally missing the point. The ranking system already makes matches competitive, so if a pug of 8 individual players with great individual scores happens to be in the queue, they can be placed together and make a fine team. Will that happen often? Probably not. Will a team of 8 great individual players be able to beat premade teams? Depends on exactly how good the premade is.... but it doesn't matter because by benefit of having ranked matches there is absolutely no point in keeping pugs out of it at all. Premades will already be fighting premades and pugs will already be fighting pugs. Only bottom of the list premades would be likely to have such bad scores that they end up fighting pugs very often, and even then it would be the best pug players who reach scores high enough where they might face a premade group. What you're fighting for is a system in which your ranked match queue is basically empty because no one is allowed to even enter without a full 8 man team. That would be pretty stupid, especially when players will be ranked individually anyway. I dont mind pugs in same ladder with premades, just have to sort rating requirements on gear to prevent gear handed out just for participating. Im not afraid by pugs in any means, no randomly made pug via LFG tool wont reach 2k rating in WoW, or equivalent rating in TOR. Edited February 25, 2012 by Forsbacka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I dont mind pugs in same ladder with premades, just have to sort rating requirements on gear to prevent gear handed out just for participating. Im not afraid by pugs in any means, no randomly made pug via LFG tool wont reach 2k rating in WoW, or equivalent rating in TOR. Those two points seem to contradict each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Those two points seem to contradict each other. Not really, i dont mind if they add solo feaure in the ladder aslong as they fight within same rules as premades and in same ladder. What i meant for rating reqs, it was men to be as so you cant buy gear just with points you get each week but without any decnet rating cause it would just make whole system trivial and mainly for farming best gear for free. Edited February 25, 2012 by Forsbacka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Not really, i dont mind if they add solo feaure in the ladder aslong as they fight within same rules as premades and in same ladder. Obviously anyone who takes part in the system is going to need to follow the same rules as anyone else, but you're assuming a ranked system will be based around a gear reward system, which to me seems flawed from the start. These ranking should be about the pride of being on top, not a gear grind. Again, what you want seems to be a very flawed design in which the top teams will have better gear than anything other players can get, making it easier for them to stay on top. I'm sorry, but that would be a broken game. The top of the ranking should be the best players, not the guys who got there first and hid behind a gear wall. What i meant for rating reqs, it was men to be as so you cant buy gear just with points you get each week but without any decnet rating cause it would just make whole system trivial and mainly for farming best gear for free People who put time and effort into the game aren't getting anything for "free". They're working for it. Turning the ranking system into a gear grind makes it trivial by default. "I'm good because of my high ranking" "No you're not, you're good because you rushed to the top and got the best gear" Besides, people who are bad at the game will have low rankings, why do you care what gear they have? Edited February 25, 2012 by Spymaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Obviously anyone who takes part in the system is going to need to follow the same rules as anyone else, but you're assuming a ranked system will be based around a gear reward system, which to me seems flawed from the start. These ranking should be about the pride of being on top, not a gear grind. Again, what you want seems to be a very flawed design in which the top teams will have better gear than anything other players can get, making it easier for them to stay on top. I'm sorry, but that would be a broken game. The top of the ranking should be the best players, not the guys who got there first and then hid behind a gear wall. People who put time and effort into the game aren't getting anytthing for "free". They're working for it. Turning the ranking system into a gear grind makes it trivial by default. "I'm good becuase of my high ranking" "No you're not, you're good becuase you rushed to the top and got the best gear" Besides, people who are bad at the game will have low rankings, why do you care what gear they have? Sorry, meaning with the gear ofc an visual upgrades just like in WoW apart of t2 weapon which wasnt gamebreaking. Other than that, i dont mind anyones ranking, in a pug or not, everyone got same chance, ratings gives titles and visual upgrades. Im just saying that if random people wants to get into solo queue, i hope they know what they are asking for, skill can only take you to some level untill you start to meet organized premades with vent and good class setups, and that level aint very high. But if it was up to me, i can agree to having solo queue to rated matches in smae ladder with premades. Edited February 25, 2012 by Forsbacka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Sorry, meaning with the gear ofc an visual upgrades just like in WoW apart of t2 weapon which wasnt gamebreaking. Other than that, i dont mind anyones ranking, in a pug or not, everyone got same chance, ratings gives titles and visual upgrades. Im just saying that if random people wants to get into solo queue, i hope they know what they are asking for, skill can only take you to some level untill you start to meet organized premades with vent and good class setups, and that level aint very high. But if it was up to me, i can agree to having solo queue to rated matches in smae ladder with premades. Ok I think I got you now, and on that we can agree. Thanks for clearing it up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jengie Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 No it wont, players are ofc ranked indicidually, but in pug you dont have any control of group setup, you cant sort any tactics before hand, unlikely ingame either, you cant evaluate player performance in a match by dmg/healing done, objectives done etc. Your next win or loss is based totally on luck you cant have any control over. If you think ranked matches are gonna be for anyone else than 8 man premades, you are delusional. For those people that dont want organized competive PvP there is normal Wzs to play just like now, rated ones will be "endgame" of PvP. I totally agree with the above. This is also why i think many pvp guilds would be dissapointed and irritated if its not possible to 8 man queu for rated. Especially when they start loosing games due to random bad pug players joining their group. BW will have thought of this as well, and therefore 8 man premades will be there. With this i dont really mind meeting soloqueu groups in rated warzones now and then. This will sort itself out eventually, with the 8 man teams climbing to the top of the ladder and eventually only meeting other 8 man premades. Because in the end, nine out of ten times the 8 man premade will beat the random solo que team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheeling Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Hopefully, if they implement the Rated Warzones correctly, it will allow for 8-man queues. But only for Rated Warzones. They should just leave the regular Warzones at a 4 man queue limit. So long as BioWare doesn't create a limitation on how many Rated Warzones any one player/team can do per day, there's no reason why they should leave the regular Warzones at a 4 man queue limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salom Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Rated warzones have to include a full premade team option. To have your rating affected by 4 pugs that join you? That is a recipe for disaster. In the end it does not matter. Diablo 3 is right around the corner and will utterly destroy this game. Hardcore hell runs, rated arena, real money auction house, on the 360, please.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jengie Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 Rated warzones have to include a full premade team option. To have your rating affected by 4 pugs that join you? That is a recipe for disaster. In the end it does not matter. Diablo 3 is right around the corner and will utterly destroy this game. Hardcore hell runs, rated arena, real money auction house, on the 360, please.... D3 destroying swtor? Different games mate, different audience with some overlap. I for one am not planning to play D3 at all. But the full premades aye. Full time pvp guilds wont accept anything less. For random pugs to have influence on your rating would be a nono to many of us.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rtwozero Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 OK, so which hybrids were priorized over main healing and dps spec classes in high rated RBGs? there is total of 4 non hybrid classes in WoW and 6 hybrid classes. 4 solid non hybrid DPS classes, hunter, mage, lock, rogue. 0 solid non hybrid healing classes. 6 hybrid classes out of 10, 2 that could heal or DPS, priest, shaman, 2 that could dps or tank, DK, warrior. 2 that could tank heal or dps, druid, and paladin. IN almost every top rated team was only 1 choice as a tank, warrior, there was atleast 2 non hybrid classes as mandatory classes, rogue+mage. 1 healer had to be a paladin. Now that 4 spots out of 10 in every high rated team was taken by prot warrior, holy paladin, rogue and mage, there was 6 spots left to fill with diffrent "pure" and hybrid classes, which ever route your team took, spellcleave or melee train, also dps DK was pretty much mandatory to every team so it leaves 5. There aint any non hybrid class in this game, and there will certainly be FOTM setups at high ratings and classes/specs that are left out from pretty much every team cause its just gimping the team. When your saying blizzard is correcting it in expansion with revamped talent tress, you are a clueless person. There aint any fixing in class roles, there has always been 6 hybrid classes and 4 pure dps classes and there will be after expansion. In ToR, every class is hybrid. Go check the new talent system for invasion of the pandas, come back and read the post again. The rest is a bit confusing and can't see how it translates to TOR. Thanks for the reply though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jengie Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 Hopefully, if they implement the Rated Warzones correctly, it will allow for 8-man queues. But only for Rated Warzones. They should just leave the regular Warzones at a 4 man queue limit. So long as BioWare doesn't create a limitation on how many Rated Warzones any one player/team can do per day, there's no reason why they should leave the regular Warzones at a 4 man queue limit. This would be great indeed. It would make me go pure 8 man teams most of the time, but leaves the current system for people not wanting, or being able to make an 8 man team. Then when you play normal you wont meet 8 man teams half the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jengie Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) Guildys are now telling me there will be no 8 man premades in rated warzones for the preseason at least? Can anyone tell me im having a bad dream? I have to go into rated warzones with less well geared pugs on avarage for republic then my Empire rival premades when its counting for rated? When is this preseason going to end? 2 months? 3 months after 1.2? My guild has been waiting for 8 man premades for 2 months and more, and now im being told its not comming in april. You got to be kidding me. Not a happy camper here Edited March 6, 2012 by Jengie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowOfVey Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I've read some guild summit stuff but I didn't watch it. Is anything even really confirmed for how rated warzones are going to work? Other than that you'll earn special rated WZ comms from them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jengie Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 i've going to check into it myself as well, though my guildies are usually well informed, i didnt see the guildsummit stuff yet. Though no 8 man premades when 1.2 goes live is worrysome to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selout Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) i've going to check into it myself as well, though my guildies are usually well informed, i didnt see the guildsummit stuff yet. Though no 8 man premades when 1.2 goes live is worrysome to me I would rather they work out the kinks for their match-making system in preseason than when they link the servers to queue against everyone. Imagine if it were only 8-man q's or if they were allowed while only facing your own server. You'd have one or two groups dominating the server and might discourage people from even trying it out. That could lead to more bugs when the real PvP starts... cross-server queuing. I have a guild full of multiple ex-glad's so I am all for 8mans but I would rather see the game succeed than stroke my e-peen for a few months. I do hope they just tell us either way so we can plan properly. Edited March 7, 2012 by Selout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryBuddhist Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) i've going to check into it myself as well, though my guildies are usually well informed, i didnt see the guildsummit stuff yet. Though no 8 man premades when 1.2 goes live is worrysome to me This thread has gotten pretty disrailed but back to the point..... Did anybody catch any form of commitment from the live chat about 8 man teams? Yesterday people were claiming both 8 man was stated and only 4 man would be ready by April. Edited March 7, 2012 by AngryBuddhist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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