I’ve never seen such a poorly executed vehicle quest chain as these walker quests in any RPG/MMO. Just awful combat and the end quest is the worst “boss” fight I’ve ever seen in 20+ years of gaming. The walkers are clunky, unresponsive and slow. Whoever thought this was fun needs to lookup the word fun for clarification. Horrid. Not sure I even want to complete this garbage quest chain. Takes all the fun out. Let me play my class not this crappy walker.

The PvP in this game needs someone like Chef Gordon Ramsey to come in and clean house. Such ineptitude is staggering. What a complete wasted opportunity for a decent arena game. They should call it PvP Nightmare's with any dev other than the Bioware dev's. I could fix this game in 5 minutes in arena lol. So sad. Enjoy your dying game. Peace.

Thank you for adding to my previous point. I was not aware of the tanks taking more dmg though. Thank you for letting me know as tanks in arena are not common. I never claimed to speak for everyone. I claimed to speak for many who don't have the initiative to come and comment on a game they have already given up on. I am really done now. If you want to fiercely defend this sinking ship, be my guest. I for one would rather error on the side of action rather than apathy. /shrug. Oh well. Perhaps the lack of success and declining appeal of SWTOR PvP is exactly why some of you like it. Easier to make a name for yourself with little to no competition. What a wasted opportunity. Perhaps the decrepit state of PvP is exactly what some of you deserve. To those who want things to change, be more vocal so crackpots can't attempt to discredit a rational argument with logical fallacies. Adios.

K, I am officially done with you. Lol. I simply don't have the stamina you require to keep you on the same page. If you can't keep up, I'm sorry. Your analysis of my comments is absolutely insane. You make illogical leaps in almost every one of your counter-points. I wouldn't even know where to begin. It would turn in to an English lesson on reading comprehension. smh

Sigh, since it seems you need special attention to even participate in the conversation without even reading ANY of the thread, I will respond to you point by point since I am feeling charitable this evening. You clearly haven't even read anything I have been saying. I don't want healers to be weak, I do think tanks are doing too much damage in contrast to the insane group survivability they bring. Tanks in PvP in WoW only take 25% more dmg while HOLDING A FLAG IN capture the flag. I never said "no strong CC/guard/surv/pvp taunt." Taunt is fine, cc is fine, guard needs to be reworked and their surv is fine. You couldn't be more incorrect. MANY people quit arena for years due to it's poor implementation who have since returned. How do you account for the resurgence that is currently being enjoyed by all? By your rationale, the participation should have always been stable but it has not. That fact directly refutes your assertion. While the overall subscription numbers have halved themselves with WoD, the PvP participation in arena has doubled according to Holinka from pre-WoD. You are partially right here. I do like the style of SWTOR PvP minus one mechanic, guard. This is where you are wrong. I don't want WoW PvP in a Star Wars setting. I like playing both. WoW's PvP system is far from perfect, but it is light years ahead of SWTOR's. I see nothing wrong in emulating success. I am fine with SWTOR having tanks. It's a neat little niche and something I think should remain. That's all it should be though, a niche. Not a mandatory gameplay mechanic for any competitive PvP to take place when the gameplay of a tank is so utterly boring and so few actually enjoy doing it, playing with or against it. Next time, do us both a favor and actually read the thread before interjecting. Most of this you could have inferred if you had only read the thread in it's entirety. Quit being intellectually lazy. If you want to add informed opinions supported by facts, I welcome you. If you are just trolling, well, then I have been successfully trolled.

You have hit on something very important here. With guard, in it's current form, it's essentially impossible to get close to balance (I know a "balanced MMO" is a myth but we should always aspire toward that goal IMO). How can you balance suvivabilty with and without guard? You can't. You either have to assume at all times there will be a competent guard or there won't be. The game gets stuck in this endless cycle of buffing healing, then buffing dmg, to nerfing dmg, then to nerfing healing, and so-on (not specifically in that order, but you get the idea here). I will concede that is the same cycle every other game is in that offers arena (purposefully or not is a debate for another thread). I feel the pendulum swings too far in this game during it's cycle compared to other games. In the case that you assume that there will be a competent guard available at all times, the gameplay really needs something. Tanking is so utterly and completely mindless right now that they would have to make it more appealing to play so there are more tanks available for teams. I have a tank & dps and the tank is played much less but has higher rating, historically, than my mara. There are only a handful of competent tanks that I know of on Harb that stick with tank spec for more than a season. In the case you assume you balance around no guard, then it is pretty evident that having guard, in it's current form, takes the gameplay to a place that is stagnant and boring. It makes it so the majority of people need to run pt/pt/pt/sorc or mara/pt/sintank/sorc (excluding outliers like Foxtrot, Devul, and other top-tier players) lol. That is a whole other level of boring that we aren't even getting in to with this discussion. Again, I am not suggesting we take out guard. I am suggesting more skill be infused in to the best buff in the game or adjusted to reflect the ease by which one can use guard effectively. A static buff, as strong as guard is in it's current form is boring and detracts from the overall gameplay experience. If changes to dmg output and surv need to be tweaked after any change to guard, which they inevitably would need, then so be it. At least the right "knobs" are being turned in the pursuit of balance.

I just read this wall of text. I get the feeling that English isn't your first language so I will move on to, what I hope, is your main point. I think you feel that a change to guard would be too drastic. Only a small change to the healing throughput on sorc heals is warranted. Also, you are making an incorrect assumption that everyone that thinks guard needs to be changed is having an issue with it and must be "noobs". I am here to say, that is not the case. I have zero issue with circumventing the best buff in the game. While I might not be at the tippy top of the ratings, I am certainly in the "high end" part of the specturm while barely even playing. My contention is that it is boring and guards existence in it's current form contributes to the almost non-existent competition in SWTOR PvP. While I agree with your assessment if I were still operating in the paradigm where SWTOR PvP was fun, and compelling; sadly, I don't think that is the case considering the downward trajectory of the competitive scene. As a matter of fact, most people I know don't find it that engaging. I am moving past trying to put a band-aide on a broken philosophy. It seems, most people don't really read on the forums and would prefer to be intellectually lazy in their responses. I know it's a forum, and the bar is pretty low but come on people. You get the game you deserve. If you aren't willing to help progress the scene, then a dying PvP scene is exactly what you deserve. I am not saying you have to accept all of the suggestions here. I am saying, the first step to progress is admitting that there are some fundamentally boring aspects unique to SWTOR arena which drive people away and hinder growth. Move past your emotional responses of trying to protect the status quo for the sake of nostalgia. I think SWTOR PvP has HUGE potential, if it can shed some of these antiquated mechanics. I agree, guard is not hard to circumvent with skillful game play but it isn't reasonable to expect new players to want to stick with the game when confronted with this mindless and unfulfilling mechanic. It's my and others assessment that guard contributes to making the game boring and doesn't really add any meaningful skill in it's current form. Why is there so much resistance to adding skill to a mindless mechanic? Unlike the OP, I don't think guard should be removed. I think it needs to be reworked so all skill levels can enjoy PvP and thus would stick around to populate the competitive PvP scene.

... ROFL you still haven't read. Your question doesn't even make sense if you have even skimmed the responses. You cherry-picked part of a response, out of context, to a very specific assertion made by someone. There is no discussion to be had. You don't even understand the conversation and I don't have the stamina to explain it to you in terms you may understand without flat out repeating what I have already said.

You aren't even following the conversation. I never said WoW was perfect. I'm done responding to you. You are 1/2 reading then making assumptions on 1/2 the information. P.S. Your assessment on WoW healing in arena is incorrect. Paladin heals are redic good. As good or better than shaman in Cata or MoP. Not sure what bracket you play in but over 2600 that's the way it is. Only super insane players like Starship, Minpojke, Absterge-caliber players make non-pally heals work with any sort of consistency. Even then it's with very specific comps whereas pally is almost plug & play with almost all comps.

Lol I play both. I'm the only one with these opinions? How about the OP amongst others here on the forums lol. I just offer more than complaints. I am articulating what the actual issue is and offering possible solutions without totally scrapping guard. I don't want dps buffed. I even said, if you read, in all likelihood if changes to guard went through, dps would have to be tempered. You are in the minority here. How many countless threads are there asking for healing nerfs? I am in agreement with the op's main point that heals aren't really the issue. It's sorc heals with guard. Sorc heals by itself are fine. How is that even asking for a nerf to heals? It seems to me you are blindly coming to the defense of the status quo which is obviously not attracting or keeping people in the scene here. Change is scary. I get it. Can anyone really argue that the current formula isn't successful? Why not try to save it while there is still some interest left? Your point of view is puzzling tbh. Edit: Just re-read your response. It's clear you didn't even read anything I proposed lol. So much wrong with it? You mean one thing is so much wrong with it? Lol. Jesus.

I play a tank and dps in PvP. Sin tank and mara. Tanking is very easy. Not only do they do way too much dmg, whilst not even being a skank tank, guard swapping is mindless. I can tell you first hand that melee dps is MUCH harder lol. MUCH MUCH harder. What exactly do you think is hard about swapping guard to who they are training? /shrug I would posit that a reason you don't see many tanks is because it is so god awfully boring and unchallenging in PvP. The ONLY time that I find it at all semi-challenging is when the other team tank-tunnels all game, but then you are no different than a dps. A dps with many more tools to survive. That is what really makes melee dps more challenging. You are in the fray but you constantly have to assess risk vs reward. When tanking, that constant situational assessment of your own HP bar, pulling your healer in to los to get cc'd, or defensive cool down management simply isn't as difficult due to how survivable you are. Mistakes aren't amplified as a tank like they are as a melee dps, outside of managing your guard. As for the other qualities you listed, I would contest that dps capable of taunt should be able to manage them efficiently and all dps need to know how to peel. Those concepts are not tank-specific. The only thing that is specific to tanking is guard. The purpose of my responses is to, hopefully, shift the conversation toward what I and many others believe ales PvP in this game we all like. Guard needs to have some skill infused in to it or toned down. It is simply too good and too simple to use effectively. It detracts from the fun-factor of those playing against or with guard in its current form.

I added stuff to my previous post. I am not saying get rid of guard. Put at least a modicum of skill in it though. Where is the cooldown? Duration? Why does it persist through CC? Why is it infinitely swappable? Why is trauma debuff 20% but guard 50%? So many things wrong with the balancing of offensive vs defensive cooldown's in SWTOR. And to the healer situation you bring up. I know the vast majority of healers haven't had to be any good due to how insanely good guard is. I watch "Apex" sorc healers and it makes me shutter. I can't name names, but lets just say they all stream on twitch... a lot. Their positioning, strat execution, communication are all at about the 2000 rating of WoW. That isn't worthy of "top tier" imo. So, they would have to adapt and evolve. If dmg is a main concern, then that would have to be tweaked too. With guard changes though, you are at least going down the path of making PvP less boring in a 4v4 environment. It would be a process, with no one perfect fix. Any changes to guard and most likely, dmg would have to be tempered. I don't want guard gone or taunt either. It's that in it's current form, its far far too good and far far far too easy to utilize to the detriment of the overall game play experience. Edit: WoW is an e-sport now with full on sponsorships that far surpasses anything prior to right now. I am not sure what game you are playing when you log in to WoW but that scene is doing just fine. Lol. SWTOR would be so lucky to have a thriving scene like that. Sadly, they won't with the apathy and lack of vision clung to by the masses who are content to just let the whole thing die for the sake of nostalgia. 4v4 is only a bad design because it means you have to have a tank/guard. That's it. WoW arena has done more for the evolution of MMO PvP than any other thing. It's actually crazy to think that people want open-world PvP and ranked WZ's still. Lol. If you can't even make the 4v4 experience fun and compelling, what hope would there be for PvP on a larger scale? Do you not remember how horrible pre-season 1 was with the rated WZ's? I do... it was 100x worse than now.

I think most of you are missing the main point here. Guard isn't impossible to get around. It's boring to play, play with or against and thus the game suffers low low interest in PvP. Fix guard, and then the game is going in the right direction. Not perfect, but at least it's working toward a better future as opposed to the downward trajectory it seems to have in regards to skillful, fulfilling game play. Guard is not the only causative factor here but it plays a huge part to the stagnation of team 4v4 q's. It's just flat out boring. PvP without guard is fast-paced, fun and dynamic. With guard people just leave. Is that the future you want for this game? The slow exsanguination of the PvP scene by maintaning the status quo? As a contrast, even Blizzard got rid of prot-spec for arena due to it being not fun to play with or against. I am not suggesting that we should do away with guard. I am suggesting that some skill be added to the most powerful buff in the game. As it stands, tanks are far far too easy for way too much group utility. Make it at least somewhat skillful... please.

Honestly, SWTOR has less CC than other games outside GW2. I can't imagine less CC. SWTOR CC has long cool downs and it doesn't have a single spammable CC. I don't know if people have any perspective on the other, arena games out there but even Tera has way more CC and let's not even get in to WoW. GW2 has that garbage conquest-only mode so they don't even qualify. A simple fix to the duration of white bar, lengthening it, would do wonder's for the game in that respect but honestly, everyone has cc-immune abilities, it's not hard to deal with. Almost every person I have had come try this game, guard is among the TOPS in reasons for not playing. Not always the ONLY reason but among the tops. I don't know what makes people quit. I can tell you what makes people not give SWTOR PvP a real shot... guard. It's not gratifying at all to play against, play with or even play. I have been playing this game since release and I can say, without question, guard in it's current form no longer has any positive value for the game. It turns away new players and makes high-end PvP really boring. There are so many fixes to guard that would make it skillful to use and add positive complexity to the game. As it stands, it's just mindless. Don't think that because I no longer think it's good for the game that I have any problems dealing with it. I want compelling game play. Edit: It is inaccurate to think that because something is different it's good. You are correct, it is unique but the PvP here in SWTOR is lackluster compared to the other games that offer arena. Taunt and guard can be good. Taunt is fine. Gaurd is indefinite. It persists through cc, no cooldown, no duration, no cost for swapping targets. Just far far too easy a mechanic to manage for such a large payoff. Edit2: Lol, ranked WZ's were utter trash across the board. Pot5, Bastion, Shadowlands... was there even one good RWZ server in NA compared to other games with similar game modes? I don't think so. Arena could have been what this game needed but they needed to rework some of the core aspects of the game for smaller group dynamics and never have introduced solo-q but I digress.

I am not sure what bracket you are playing at but @65 1 good sin tank and 1 good sorc healer is far far far better than 2 sorc heals lol. It's not even a debate.

Exactly. The established "PvP community" (I laugh at even calling them that) obviously balk at getting rid/changing guard all the while the competition just evaporates due to disinterest. It's as if they can't even see what's killing the game they claim to love. Just insane to me. People don't like the competitive aspect of SWTOR, for multiple reasons, but guard being the coup de grace. It's that simple. I am on Harb and it's like the same 16 people who do team 4's. Lol. That's not a community. Maybe it's time to evolve the thinking regarding SWTOR PvP before it completely dies. ... as if Bioware cares lol. Food for thought: The early incarnation (I forget what beta it was of which xpac) of Spirit Link Totem for Shaman in WoW was going to be a persistent totem with no cooldown. They play tested it, and realized how insanely overpowered it was and now it has 2 charges with a 3m cool down. I am not suggesting that this is what tanks should get. I am saying that even Blizzard saw that a persistent HP sharing ability like that would be too good and cause game play to become really really boring and stagnant... just like SWTOR PvP is currently.

I can't tell you how many good WoW arena, Tera arena and GW2 players have tried SWTOR (after me begging for them to try it) have been turned away by the absurd mechanic of guard. At least 20+ multi-gladiator, high ranked players. Sorry, but it is the main contributing factor in this game's inability to attract good players for PvP. Guard just doesn't belong in the game. Hell, even in PvE they realized it's too good and only made it threat. ROFL. It's only fun for the tank itself to play. In it's current form it doesn't even add complexity to the game play while tanking is by far the easiest archetype in the game to actually play. Weather it's jugg defensive cooldowns, or sorc idiot-proof buttons, there are a whole host of issues with PvP balance in this game. The main offender is guard. This game will never be any good in PvP without changes to that mechanic. End of story.

Or, do what WoW did and get rid of accuracy and innate defense all together. It's a boring stat to have to deal with across the board. People want to do more dmg but without that stupid chance to miss/deflect/parry/resist/whatever.

PvP is thinning out big time on Harb. Sorc heals with guard? Lol, some really compelling gameplay Bioware. Oh well.

If 10% is literally 20 people (probably less due to the 4v4 metric used to frame this scenario), that is a horrible way to balance. Consider how little 4v4 is actually played. Then consider what do the vast majority of people do? Regs and soloq. Why dismiss what most people do in the game? Consider why the 4v4 SWTOR PvP scene is so anemic compared to even the likes of Tera arena. Could it be people are turned off by the limited amount of PvP they have experienced prior to finding three other people to queue with? Balancing around the elite is a luxury a game can enjoy when it has a thriving player-base. LoL, CS:GO, Dota2... even WoW can do that. When you have to schedule 4v4 matches or fight the same team over and over and over on even Harb, there is no such thing as elite. Those players aren't elite in any sense of the word. Some of them click and skey all over, on top of facing no competition. You are right though. Nothing will be done. Partly Bioware's fault and partly due to the apathy that permeates this community. I'm not dismissive of inventive ideas or facts. I do dismiss weak arguments or statements based on logical fallacies or nostalgia.

Your sentiments are echoed by many many PvP-minded people in the MMO genre. People who are pretty accomplished in their respective games and are no strangers to what high-level PvP entails. It should be noted this is all intellectual ************. BW won't change what needs to be changed to keep this game fresh and exciting. The "elite" club of players or "Apex" title-holders are also some of the worst ambassadors for SWTOR PvP in all of Nerddom. They are either silent or have massive inferiority complex's. Well, I guess they have good reason for it. They main SWTOR for PvP which is clearly an inferior game to the other options out there, but I digress. 😜 This is still a fun game as a secondary gaming interest only.

Removing tanks is not the answer IMO. Changing the functionality of guard is needed. I don't mean to belittle your experience by saying tanking in PvP is easy. That is an observation of not only myself, but others as well. It is not hard at the higher skill levels to function as a tank. Swapping guard is pretty much a baseline skill for all people who play tanks at even a semi-competent level. It is true, it is easy to circumvent guard as well (in an arena setting). The idea of cross cc was around long before SWTOR and is fairly simple to pull off. I am coming at it from the fun aspect. It's just not fun to play, play with or against. Some people may find it fun, however the low numbers of people playing SWTOR PvP would suggest that SWTOR PvP is lacking in some way.

The sad truth is, he is right. It's not just sorc heals. It's sorc heals + tanks. Anyone with 1/2 a brain and a little perspective can see that. If healing debuff is 20%, guard should be 20% too. It's a zero sum proposition. This isn't rocket science here. Just because some mechanic has been this way since SWTOR's inception, doesn't mean it is still a good idea. By that logic, conceal operatives should still be 3-shotting people like in 1.0.x. The game has moved on. Guard is an antequated SWTOR PvP mechanic that really doesn't add complexity to the games PvP in its current form. Now if guard had a duration and cool down associated with it, then you are adding skillful gameplay to the tank archetype. As it stands right now, tanks are doing far too much dmg while brining far too much group surv to the table all while being the easiest archetype to play. I don't know what the best possible solution would be but it's clear guard plays a major role in SWTOR PvP dysfunction. They don't pay me to fix their game for them. Heh. I have railed against sorc/ sage heals mainly because the masses here in SWTOR don't seem to understand what really plagues this games PvP. Tank functionality in PvP seems to be the third rail of this community. It seems more logical to complain about one class rather than an entire game mechanic that spans 3 ac's when in fact tanks are half responsible for the lackluster PvP attraction of SWTOR and lackluster group gameplay in PvP. Without guard, PvP is fun. Sorc heals aren't op at all. Merc/Mando and Op/Scound heals could then be buffed up to the sorc level without causing imbalance. As it stands now, in PvP with the current guard mechanic, Op/Scound heals are about right while the other two need tuning with this absurd 50% damage sharing. /shrug. Too many close-minded people hiding out in SWTOR PvP to have any perspective. Its a shame too. This game has so much potential to be a great PvP game but is squandered.

It won't happen before the season start. They have too many other, absurd issues to deal with. I mean, how do you implement a patch and break the search function of the GTN. Lol. That's like me attaching the leads of an ECG, breaking the monitor, and then not knowing how to fix it for a few days and expecting my patients to just, "deal with it" until I can fix it. Thank god these people are just game developers and have no real important station in life. Unreal the ineptitude that is tolerated in the gaming industry.

You literally have to be mentally retarded as a sorc to die with guard. Hello barrier, hello phase walk. That's IF you are too awful to stay in range of the guard. Two moron buttons to press. I love it. Sweet balance. I mean it would be one thing if it were borderline. This is a pre-season 1 situation where if you want to be competitive AT ALL as a healer you HAVE to roll sorc heals just like op/scound heals for that god awful Team WZ crap. This should literally be a 5m meeting at Bioware. The changes that need to be made are so obvious its crazy. I mean, imagine if I had the same level of ineptitude as a RN. What? 100mg/kg of morphine for the patient? OK!! This is baseline crap here. Not sure what "metrics" they are using but it's time to change it. If there is no nerf Tuesday just... ROFL. Edit: If PvE is a considertaion, don't change the throughput of any of their heals or bubbles. Just change the surv of that class. Get rid of barrier or phase walk or both honestly. That marginally affects PvE while it will have a dramatic impact in PvP. It will bring them in line with the other 2 healing AC's.