Tired of the "our damage is fine" crowd ...

[mothersponge]

Guys, this is a moot point. I play a level 50 operative in full champion gear about to get my battle master set.

 

Concealment Operative is gimped when it comes to PvP. Anyone who says otherwise is either in denial OR has never really, truly explored the class.

 

I have no issues with PvE - yes we need a little boost here and there since we are not a sustained DPS class but a Flash/Burst damage class. It's that simple. We should be bringing the big hits to the party.

 

I don't mind getting my damaged nerfed - I don't want to play a class where I just walk around one-hitting everything - no fun, no challenge.

 

But since Bioware decided that the only form of survivability for the operative was big damage, all other utilities were not considered.

 

The easiest solution is to create parallel skill trees: PvE and PvP - as you advance you get a point in each. This would alleviate pressure from trying to balance skills in both PvE and PvP circumstances - because the current construct is obviously not working.

 

To sum it up: Operatives are not complaining about the DAMAGE, we are complaining about

our UTILITY!!! Case in point - a healer specced Trooper.....really Bioware, you give a heavy-armour wearing class healing abilities??

[Thankyjack]

Forget the damage comments because our damage is ok, not great, not good, but ok. Overall damage in war zones is overrated because of the powerful aoe many other classes have. However, we should be competitive in the kills.

 

That said, the op has great points. Since our burst has been nerfed to where it isn't really burst anymore, we need to be able to stay on our target to be effective. However, we have no means of staying on our target outside of our opening stuns. This is a real issue. When they nerfed our burst they should have given us a gap closer or buffed our ranged damage a bit.

[Hoff]

Forget the damage comments because our damage is ok, not great, not good, but ok. Overall damage in war zones is overrated because of the powerful aoe many other classes have. However, we should be competitive in the kills.

 

That said, the op has great points. Since our burst has been nerfed to where it isn't really burst anymore, we need to be able to stay on our target to be effective. However, we have no means of staying on our target outside of our opening stuns. This is a real issue. When they nerfed our burst they should have given us a gap closer or buffed our ranged damage a bit.

 

I'm sorry but no, just....no. Powertechs/Vanguards and Mercs/Commandos do way more burst and sustain than operatives. They also have more utility via knockbacks and/or pulls and/or charges.

 

Yes, mobility is a problem, but the fact remains that we are the squishiest class in the game without any damage to make up for it.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Hoff

[broaf]

You all must be pretty terrible. I recently hit 50 on my operative (hit BM on my ptech first), and i have no more/no less issues on my op than my bh in warzones.

 

 

In competitive pvp, you have to play to your opponent's weaknesses, not against your own. Know the cooldowns of every other class, know when to expect them and when to prevent them. Know when to cut your losses. Know when to burn your cds and when to save them. Know which abilities to interrupt and which are likely jukes.

 

I havent gotten every class to 50 yet, but thus far, operative seems to have the highest skillcap in pvp - probably a bad thing for most of you.

Operatives will be as desired as any other class after things are fleshed out in the first season of rated wz - and the highest rate teams will always have AT LEAST one.

[Skaol-dirtyd]

That's all well and good. BUT!!!!!!!! There is one key point to make out. IF!

you were playing something else. ANYTHING!!! else.

You would be doing 2X+ what you are doing now.

 

That is the key to the "operative" is fine statements. Every other class is superior.

 

This ^^^

 

Yes Ops/Scoundrels can still compete however it takes a lot more work to do so.

 

If you are awesome with your Op/Scoundrel just imagine what you would do with another class.

[Hamchuck]

a healer specced Trooper.....really Bioware, you give a heavy-armour wearing class healing abilities??

 

Are you really asking this?

 

Paladins? Clerics?

[vimm]

Our damage is fine.

[Crawler]

Our damage is fine.

 

our damage is better then fine :]

as long there is no log none can prove otherwise hahaha.

[pairadox]

I have played my op through fifty.

I have pvp'ed to rank 50.

I have run every hm I can get in on.

 

There is a significantly noticable difference, when I play a sorc now.

My survivability is huge. My damage is consistant, and better. I can still burst.

 

 

The irony is, every time I get popped by an op... I feel bad for them. They cant burst me down. I am shielded. I have plenty of time to get away now. Even if they manage to chain stun me for five seconds.

 

Keep telling yourself the class is fine.

Its not.

[Skuishe]

It sucks, but after the changes, we have to change the way we play, but we are more than viable in any group, pve/pvp if played well.

 

Adapt

 

Yay another genius who think he's better than everyone else because he can use the word adapt.

 

Except for one thing he doesn't realize, that the class was not changed, it was just NERFED. The only thing we were "given" was the ability to stunlock off our opener, which also cost our stun for later in the fight, meaning in pvp all we can do is kill badly geared players with more certainty than before.

 

Otherwise tell me, what is your magical adaptation strategy for having the exact same playstyle as before, except all the numbers are smaller? If it's so good, why weren't you doing it before the nerf to even greater effect?

 

I will give that we are viable in any pve group, but only because content is so easy that I suspect companions would be viable. In pvp, we're pretty useless. And yes I get that you probably "top warzone damage" and "have never lost a 1v1" but I'm extremely uninterested in what you can do against your average undergeared opponent so don't waste your breath.

[taldrens]

In competitive pvp, you have to play to your opponent's weaknesses, not against your own. Know the cooldowns of every other class, know when to expect them and when to prevent them. Know when to cut your losses. Know when to burn your cds and when to save them. Know which abilities to interrupt and which are likely jukes.

 

Or you could play any other class and just go kill someone without having to have an effing battle plan with combat ability charts and redundancy tables.

 

Thank you for proving our point terribad.

[XForget]

As a 5/5 BM Operative i do fine as healing in warzones and as dps but this class clearly has issues. In general the class is weaker than other classes that fill similar roles, there is nothing more to it.

 

• 
  Our pve dps is garbage, if you read the nerf it pretty much says your pve dps will now be even more pathetic than it already was.
   
  Our pve healing is again, garbage, the weakest healing class, a known fact, people on my server do not want operatives in their raids.
   
  PvP healing we are the weakest healing class, we do not cover a niche of healing, people who think that are ridiculous, our healing in general is weaker than the other classes so unless people are taking constant equal low damage our healing is weaker than mercenaries and sorcerors, despite our mobility due to instants.
   
  Our utility is limited to a cloak in combat and 2 stuns one of which is breakable on damage, our utility is nowhere near that of any of the other classes
  

 

So that raises the question still nobody has answered, what role can the operative fill that another class cannot do better ? Every other class it seems fills at least 1 roll very effectively, where as operatives this is not the case. We need to be fixed simply because there is absolutely no reason currently to take an equal level operative to anything compared to an equal level player of another class.

[Zerikin_Loukbel]

So that raises the question still nobody has answered, what role can the operative fill that another class cannot do better ? Every other class it seems fills at least 1 roll very effectively, where as operatives this is not the case. We need to be fixed simply because there is absolutely no reason currently to take an equal level operative to anything compared to an equal level player of another class.

 

Agreed. The class is fun to play and seemingly capable. Its just that anything we can do another class can do better.

 

Operative class motto: Anything we can do they can do better.

[chuixupu]

Our pve dps is garbage, if you read the nerf it pretty much says your pve dps will now be even more pathetic than it already was.

 

Please show me some spreadsheet data and parses comparing their damage to back up the claim that it is "garbage"? I raid with a Sorc, Merc, and Assassin and do FPs with them every day...I'm not seeing this to be true.

 

Our pve healing is again, garbage, the weakest healing class, a known fact, people on my server do not want operatives in their raids.

 

Plenty of operatives healing on my server, but my server is quite huge. And very Australian.

 

So that raises the question still nobody has answered, what role can the operative fill that another class cannot do better ? Every other class it seems fills at least 1 roll very effectively, where as operatives this is not the case. We need to be fixed simply because there is absolutely no reason currently to take an equal level operative to anything compared to an equal level player of another class.

 

Hey, nobody else has the crit buff

I don't know...with this logic I don't see any reason to bring an assassin either. The assassin in my raid and I seem to be equal in every way, except I an battle rez and heal myself in a pinch. It'd sure be boring as hell if we all just had to be Mercs and Sorcs. I prefer actually having fun playing a video game. Plus, just imagine the gear competition.

 

As long as it doesn't get to be like in WoW it got to the point where they homogenized everything so much that NOBODY brought anything really unique to the raid.

[Zerikin_Loukbel]

Sure, but you don't take an ops dps because he can heal himself. DPS sin's have force speed to gap close and a knock back. Battle rez would be relevant only if you don't have at least one sorc in your operation group. Everyone in the raid shares a CD for battle rez so you only need one person with it.

 

Take a sniper and you have the crit buff.

 

It's not that we can't fill a role, its just everyone else can fill it better.

[sMooMs]

i played a wz on my friends sorc knowing pretty much nothing about the class and was pretty suprised at the end of the wz

 

on my op i have to run around like crazy and be very carefull about the situation i pick to attack, i usually end a wz with something like 250k damage 25-35 kill (i dont really die on my op cause like i said im carefull so maybe 1-2 deaths) and my kiulling blows are usually better then 50% of my kills.

 

when i played the sorc i didnt really have to run around too much, people just stand in line to fight you, and u have a deep toolbox

 

anyways i ended the wz on the sorc with 300k damage and 45kills and i did alot less then my op needs to do. on the sorc i died 5 times or so, was missing my cs button alot but earned 10 medals easily i usualy get 7-8 on my op

 

keep in mind this was my first time on a sorc (im an experienced lock from wow so the class wasent anything new to me) but i can say for 100% that with a sorc and a little practice 450-500k consistant damage in wz wouldnt be hard to do.

 

anyways im sticking with my op as im way too lazy and stuborn to reroll but we deffinatly need work 2xs as hard as any other class to produce results they easily obtain . and if u can do really good on an op you will be a monster on a sorc/merc/mara/pt whatever...

[chuixupu]

Sure, but you don't take an ops dps because he can heal himself. DPS sin's have force speed to gap close and a knock back. Battle rez would be relevant only if you don't have at least one sorc in your operation group. Everyone in the raid shares a CD for battle rez so you only need one person with it.

 

Take a sniper and you have the crit buff.

 

It's not that we can't fill a role, its just everyone else can fill it better.

 

 

I totally agree about the lack of gap closers. Big design flaw imo. But Assassins having one doesn't automatically make them "essential", especially since not all bosses do a knockback. If you have an Assassin tank, what does bringing an Assassin dps over another Sorc bring you?

 

 

I am almost always the one who gets the battle rez off...I guess our Sorc is lazy. And your'e right that people don't think of taking an operative dps to heal, but for the times where I've saved people's asses that way when the **** hits the fan, I feel pretty happy about having that ability. Living dps is better than dead dps...and I have a little more control over that. I went Operative instead of Sniper because I have always played either rogue-type classes or healing classes in the past...never have been a ranged dps fan.

 

I'm not arguing here because I don't want any changes made...I think if we all take a chill pill we can agree Operatives are capable enough for everything, but don't shine particularly in anything. The over exaggerations of people trying to say they are "garbage" is a lie and contributing to the "can't get in a group" problem more than anything.

[Howbadisbad]

Is mentioned in every thread.

 

The trolls post their uber damage in a warzone to disregard it, proving their morons.

Operatives do nothing that another class can't do better.

 

This.

[XForget]

Please show me some spreadsheet data and parses comparing their damage to back up the claim that it is "garbage"? I raid with a Sorc, Merc, and Assassin and do FPs with them every day...I'm not seeing this to be true.

 

 

 

Plenty of operatives healing on my server, but my server is quite huge. And very Australian.

 

 

 

Hey, nobody else has the crit buff

I don't know...with this logic I don't see any reason to bring an assassin either. The assassin in my raid and I seem to be equal in every way, except I an battle rez and heal myself in a pinch. It'd sure be boring as hell if we all just had to be Mercs and Sorcs. I prefer actually having fun playing a video game. Plus, just imagine the gear competition.

 

As long as it doesn't get to be like in WoW it got to the point where they homogenized everything so much that NOBODY brought anything really unique to the raid.

 

Sniper has crit buff, when a dps meter is implemented im sure we will all see how big the difference is. Assassins make great tanks actually.. A lot of operatives healing ? Thats nice, says nothing about how well the class can perform in healing, if you think operatives healing is equivalent to mercs / sorcs id question if you actually play one. I see a lot of personal examples here, your personal experience with the class says absolutely nothing about the class, you firmly believe from what i can see that this class is "balanced". Why do threads like this keep popping up then ? Why does the class in general feel weak. Just looking at the mechanics of the class its very easy to see that the class does not offer as much as its counterparts. Again, your not posting numbers either, you're just posting personal experiences.

[Urukkhan]

Please show me some spreadsheet data and parses comparing their damage to back up the claim that it is "garbage"? I raid with a Sorc, Merc, and Assassin and do FPs with them every day...I'm not seeing this to be true.

 

 

 

Plenty of operatives healing on my server, but my server is quite huge. And very Australian.

 

 

 

Hey, nobody else has the crit buff

I don't know...with this logic I don't see any reason to bring an assassin either. The assassin in my raid and I seem to be equal in every way, except I an battle rez and heal myself in a pinch. It'd sure be boring as hell if we all just had to be Mercs and Sorcs. I prefer actually having fun playing a video game. Plus, just imagine the gear competition.

 

As long as it doesn't get to be like in WoW it got to the point where they homogenized everything so much that NOBODY brought anything really unique to the raid.

I can say from the tank point of view, nothing personal, but ops in healing are worst, you still can get some fun from the game but this didn't add your class enough utility in the eyes of others. Edited February 14, 2012 by Urukkhan

[sMooMs]

u guys see the sorc post 900k damage in a wz ^^ would take 2xs ops having a very very good game to do that Edited February 14, 2012 by sMooMs

[chuixupu]

Assassins make great tanks actually..

 

Yes, they do. I didn't say anything against Assassin tanks. I asked why bring an Assassin DPS rather than a Sorcerer or Merc dps if you already have an Assassin tank.

 

 

A lot of operatives healing ? Thats nice, says nothing about how well the class can perform in healing, if you think operatives healing is equivalent to mercs / sorcs id question if you actually play one. I see a lot of personal examples here, your personal experience with the class says absolutely nothing about the class, you firmly believe from what i can see that this class is "balanced".

 

 

Why do threads like this keep popping up then ? Why does the class in general feel weak. Just looking at the mechanics of the class its very easy to see that the class does not offer as much as its counterparts. Again, your not posting numbers either, you're just posting personal experiences.

 

You clearly are not actually reading what I typed. I have said repeatedly that I agree the class doesn't shine and needs attention. I only have argued that people stop with this attitude that they are "garbage" and shouldn't even try to do end game. Yes, for goodness sake, Operatives need some love, I've never said otherwise. I've had my own rants and posted to the Dev's Q&A.

But I'm not going to tell people that they should stop playing one. Maker forbid I actually have something positive to say about my class.

 

 

Everything is really one person's experience against another, so until we can post solid data let's not jump to overdramatic conclusions.

[Dulark]

The issue isnt

"why would you bring an assassin over a sorc", this is the freaking AGENT forums.

the issue is "why would you bring an operative over any other dps."

 

Operatives/scounderls have no burst damage cooldowns, assassins have 2, 3 if you count increased energy regeneration after vanish. While they cant heal themselves they can:

1.) move out of danger faster.

2.) activate force shroud making them immune to tech/force powers which most aoes tend to be and in other cases they have Deflection if its physical damage.

3.) have several abilities for burst damage.

 

why is 3.) important? Buff stacking. Marauder pops Bloodthirst, Assassin vanishes to gain extra energy regeneration, pops Overcharge + potion + relic + recklessness.

Now why the heck would you bring an Operative over an assassin when its already known that Assassins have better sustained dps AND they can burst better in a raid environment? AND they have better survivability?

 

The only comparable thing would be Adrenaline probe and thats only a way for us to gain about half our energy back and even then we cant use our hard-hitting abilities without TA which we cant get because that is tied to abilities on short duration cooldowns like shiv that we always use anyway when theyre available.

 

Why bring an Operative over a Sorc? they both have battle rez, they can both heal in a clutch but the difference is again, sorc has dps cooldowns, sorc is ranged and the sorcs heal (barrier) is an instant cast whereas the operatives is either 2.5 seconds or 1.5 sec.(if you have TA), not to mention the Operatives healing without healing spec is horrible while the Sorc gets early talents in their DPS TREE to increase the static barriers effectiveness.

 

 

 

 

Dont kid yourself please, the operative is a horrible class that is in dire need of attention and its one of the main reasons i think they havent introduced damage meters, noone in their right mind would roll one if they did.