Give me a legitimate reason to NOT have a LFD tool.

[Amiracle]

Rift added a LFG tool.

 

Followed by QQ about people joining groups under geared.

 

Followed by Trion adding their own version of gear score.

 

Sounds like a whole lot of community building there.

 

But yeah, that's not proof.

[ispanolfw]

That just tells me the tool was needed and successful due to how many adopted its use. If the fear is that it will be 'too popular' doesn't that alone tell you something?

 

I already explained how easily this can be false in a previous post. Unless you have numbers to back it up that is. Adopting the use of does not equate to being wanted. Path of least resistance man.

 

This is only mildy related, but intelligent people can see the connection.

 

http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/486

[Senatsu]

Are you forced to use it? No you are not. You can continue to make groups the same way you always have.

 

Now, if you find that your 'friends' are no longer available because they are using the new tool doesn't that mean two things? 1) they weren't really 'friends' and 2) The tool works and people like it.

 

I don't buy the argument that isn't optional because everyone will use it so you will have to as well. All that tells me is it was a great addition since so many adopted it.

 

I'm just gonna copy paste one of my previous posts, and please, read through this several times to make sure you understand completely:

 

Let's say 70% of the server will use it at launch.

 

30% of them knows exactly what it is, 20% wanted to just try out this new and strange feature, 20% used it because most of their friends are in the now 50%. That ups the numbers to 70%, leaving the people against LFD with a MASSIVELY reduced server playerbase. What other option do they have besides jumping into the bandwagon and do it themselves? They can refuse to use it, and be left in the mud, or they can join with the other people and stay on the same gear level (please don't think this is exclusively about gear acquisition).

 

So, 30% starts using it knowing it full and well, 20% tries it and figures why not use it without any experience of it's repercussions. Now another 20% starts using it because their friends are among the 50% that is already using it. Then you have the last 30% that is being, indirectly with no fault of their own and with no intention from the tool itself, forced into using it.

 

I beg of you to read through this carefully and really grasp the percentages of people who enjoy it (30%), doesn't know any better (20%), realizes they have no choice (20%) and the people who refute, but ultimately have to use it too to do anything (30%).

 

Enjoy it (30%), doesn't know (20%), no choice (20%), ultimately forced (30%).

 

So when you see that the 30% of the community wants it, everyone follows after. NOT BECAUSE THEY LIKE, WANT OR NEED IT, but because they have no choice.

 

Read through it again.

 

And again.

 

And now a last time.

 

I hope you realize I'm getting sick of trying to get this across at this point.

[Kaelshi]

lfd tool hurts the community as a whole. It removes reputation and accountability... once that's gone out the window you get people trolling and griefing people on purpose in LFD groups.

 

It happened in WoW and ruined realm communities. If it happens here it will have the same effect.

 

There are tons of bugs and other things that coders could be working on.

 

Find some friends to play with to progress through pve content. If you cant make any in game and dont have any IRL maybe you should be asking yourselves why ... and stop posting this nonsense here.

 

Have a great day!

 

 

opinion, opinion, opinion.

 

You have no facts to back any of this up. It ruined realm communities? What specific realms and what was ruined?

 

Along with that anonymity you have no way to prove that those people are not being jerks anyway on their servers. You are suggesting they are fine upstanding people UNTIL THEY LFG DUN DUN DUN, then they turn into aholes.

[Pythoris]

lfd tool hurts the community as a whole. It removes reputation and accountability... once that's gone out the window you get people trolling and griefing people on purpose in LFD groups.

 

It happened in WoW and ruined realm communities. If it happens here it will have the same effect.

 

There are tons of bugs and other things that coders could be working on.

 

Find some friends to play with to progress through pve content. If you cant make any in game and dont have any IRL maybe you should be asking yourselves why ... and stop posting this nonsense here.

 

Have a great day!

 

Well, there are a lot of flaws WoW had in my eyes, but the LFG tool is the least of them as far as I'm concerned.

 

Also, it's rather rude and uncalled for to call someone's request "nonsense" just because you don't agree with it. What's ironic is you think a LFG tool is not a good idea because it will lead to trolling, and in the very post you expressed this, you halfway trolled.

 

Careful.

[Amiracle]

It is. Can there be a general community game wide? Kinda.

 

If that is all you can reply to in my response then I think that proves something. Thanks.

 

 

Like you responded to....rofl

 

 

How would a cross server tool promote more events on your server?

 

How would a cross server tool promote people talking on your server?

 

Guild drama.....How do you know? Just because they aren't talking in general it doesn't exist?

[Introvertus]

Prove they are not the case? Prove they have not manifested themselves in other games that have a xsvr LFD....

 

Driz

 

Haha.

 

Sorry, but you can't counter "prove that this isn't buII****" with "prove that it is". You asked me to counter your arguments and I did. You're now trying to counter mine with "prove it". See where we're going?

 

My "proof" would be a plethora of personal experiences, which you'd counter by saying are "anecdotal and therefore not copacetic evidence" bla bla bla - I get it.

 

We're probably both right in parts - there's evidence for and against on both sides.

 

I'm Pro-LFD, you're not. Neither of us will change our minds.

[ferroz]

Please elaborate on the last statement.

I'm not sure what there is to elaborate about it. One of the possible solutions to problems with server specific population issues is to make it so that the server specific population issues are no longer involved. Xserver lfg makes it so that for a specific set of content, server specific population issues are no longer involved.

 

So...true to form...you have just gone "No" "No it isnt" "No your wrong"

Except that I didn't actually say any of those things

 

the closest I came is the bit about being anonymous. But even there, I gave a specific reason why your claim was incorrect (the fact that I'm already totally anonymous)

 

etc etc without providing ANY evidence of your own to qualify what you are saying?

Those were supposed to be valid, objective reasons. They aren't. I gave fairly straightforward reasons why the things that were offered aren't valid objective reasons.

 

If you want something, you do not need an objective reason to want it; having a subjective, or opinion based reason is sufficient, since it just applies to you. If you want someone else to not have something, you need a clear, objective reason for them not to have it; having an opinion based or subjective reason isn't sufficient, since you're imposing your opinion on other people.

 

So what? Your opinion is just worth more than mine? Ok...

Where did I claim that?

 

You have just proven that no reason or concern will ever be good enough...even when it is.

No I haven't. I've proven that no subjective, opinion based, unsupported reason or concern will be good enough. An objective, factual, supported reason will be good enough.

 

I cannot provide evidence to support my claims just you cannot...so we are back to "just because I want it and am better than you" or "my anecedotes trump your anecdotes"...

No, We're at

I want X

You don't want me to have X

You are totally unable to give a valid, objective reason why I shouldn't have X.

Edited February 13, 2012 by ferroz

[ImperialSun]

this is the dumbest post so far in this thread by you.

 

You're complaining about all the problems that could come from it and thats why it should not be implemented but instead of having any basis for your claims other than your personal experiences which don't even prove your specific claims, he is suppose to prove that your claims are untrue?

 

That is so stupid man, really....reallllly dumb.

 

The point I am making is that there are loads of valid concerns that have been raised in this thread.

 

Not one of them has been met with any kind of meaningful response or counter arguement supported by evidence.

 

None of the pro supporters can offer any irrefutable proof that LFD is a positive thing. Just like I cannot offer any irrefutable proof to the contrary.

 

THIS explains why I keep seeing threads like "Give me one reason for no LFD"....it's simply that when prople do give you valid concerns you refuse to hear them and the only response I keep seeing is "No it isnt"...

 

Your own sides "evidence" for having LFD is just as inconclusive as the "evidence" for not having it....you guys just choose not to see that and pretend you have facts to back up what are really just demands...

 

Driz

[ispanolfw]

opinion, opinion, opinion.

 

You have no facts to back any of this up. It ruined realm communities? What specific realms and what was ruined?

 

Along with that anonymity you have no way to prove that those people are not being jerks anyway on their servers. You are suggesting they are fine upstanding people UNTIL THEY LFG DUN DUN DUN, then they turn into aholes.

 

http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/silvershredder/yhst-34640480252896_1969_627009.gif <-- Exhibit A

 

And that's the thing, many people DO act differently with more or less anonymity.

 

Also, everything for Cross Server LFG is ALSO as you put it "opinion, opinion, opinion" But the thing I see more on that side than the other is trying to denounce the others opinions as not valid, or that since they're a "minority", not even proven minority, they can suck it up and deal with it, they don't count.

[ImperialSun]

Haha.

 

Sorry, but you can't counter "prove that this isn't buII****" with "prove that it is". You asked me to counter your arguments and I did. You're now trying to counter mine with "prove it". See where we're going?

 

My "proof" would be a plethora of personal experiences, which you'd counter by saying are "anecdotal and therefore not copacetic evidence" bla bla bla - I get it.

 

We're probably both right in parts - there's evidence for and against on both sides.

 

I'm Pro-LFD, you're not. Neither of us will change our minds.

 

You did not counter any of my concerns.

 

You simply offered you own, opposite opinion.

 

That is not countering anything...

 

Driz

[PjPablo]

All of this back and forth is pointless really. X-server LFD will be added at some point. They are adding for PVP, and it isn't a stretch to see it added for PVE. If they were not to add it then they would need to figure out what to do about low pop servers and that is a far, far more painful decision than simply adding x-server LFD.

 

The question to ask is what will keep people playing the game. Do people want to run more content? If so, they add x-server LFD. At this point in the game's evolution I don't even see this as an option. It is a basic MMO necessity that the game needs to remain relevant. What player when faced with the decision of running content quickly and running content slowly because it takes longer to find a group or not running it at all simply because they cannot find others to run with chooses the later? That's the calculation at the end of the day.

[Megadoomer]

A few points...

 

-Most players are casual and have limited play time. Spending hours screaming in fleet for a group that may not form is not most people's idea of a $15 monthly fee well spent.

 

-Moving forward, BW will be spending a large portion of it's resources on max level instanced content. It's stupid for them to be spending all this time and money on content without giving the majority of their players a convenient way to experience it.

 

-Easy access to dungeons (and the gear within) gives players more reasons to level multiple characters.

 

-Just because WoW has it, doesn't mean it's evil. Mindless hatred is mindless.

[ImperialSun]

I'm not sure what there is to elaborate about it. One of the possible solutions to problems with server specific population issues is to make it so that the server specific population issues are no longer involved. Xserver lfg makes it so that for a specific set of content, server specific population issues are no longer involved.

 

Except that I didn't actually say any of those things

 

the closest I came is the bit about being anonymous. But even there, I gave a specific reason why your claim was incorrect (the fact that I'm already totally anonymous)

 

Those were supposed to be valid, objective reasons. They aren't. I gave fairly straightforward reasons why the things that were offered aren't valid objective reasons.

 

If you want something, you do not need an objective reason to want it; having a subjective, or opinion based reason is sufficient, since it just applies to you. If you want someone else to not have something, you need a clear, objective reason for them not to have it; having an opinion based or subjective reason isn't sufficient, since you're imposing your opinion on other people.

 

Where did I claim that?

 

No I haven't. I've proven that no subjective, opinion based, unsupported reason or concern will be good enough. An objective, factual, supported reason will be good enough.

 

 

No, We're at

I want X

You don't want me to have X

You are totally unable to give a valid, objective reason why I shouldn't have X.

 

But...they are objective, valid concerns...

 

Just because YOU refuse to accept them does not make them invalid or on-ojective does it?

 

Driz

[Gerrard_Ennui]

I'm just gonna copy paste one of my previous posts, and please, read through this several times to make sure you understand completely:

 

Let's say 70% of the server will use it at launch.

 

30% of them knows exactly what it is, 20% wanted to just try out this new and strange feature, 20% used it because most of their friends are in the now 50%. That ups the numbers to 70%, leaving the people against LFD with a MASSIVELY reduced server playerbase. What other option do they have besides jumping into the bandwagon and do it themselves? They can refuse to use it, and be left in the mud, or they can join with the other people and stay on the same gear level (please don't think this is exclusively about gear acquisition).

 

So, 30% starts using it knowing it full and well, 20% tries it and figures why not use it without any experience of it's repercussions. Now another 20% starts using it because their friends are among the 50% that is already using it. Then you have the last 30% that is being, indirectly with no fault of their own and with no intention from the tool itself, forced into using it.

 

I beg of you to read through this carefully and really grasp the percentages of people who enjoy it (30%), doesn't know any better (20%), realizes they have no choice (20%) and the people who refute, but ultimately have to use it too to do anything (30%).

 

Enjoy it (30%), doesn't know (20%), no choice (20%), ultimately forced (30%).

 

So when you see that the 30% of the community wants it, everyone follows after. NOT BECAUSE THEY LIKE, WANT OR NEED IT, but because they have no choice.

 

Read through it again.

 

And again.

 

And now a last time.

 

I hope you realize I'm getting sick of trying to get this across at this point.

All these percentages are bullsh*t. The choice to use the tool or not isn't found in an equation, it rests with the individual.

 

'Having no choice' is the situation we have NOW, where finding a pickup group DEMANDS that you spam general on the fleet - yet you're saying that actually having a choice whether to use a LFG tool or not means that nobody has a choice? Absurd.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Gerrard_Ennui

[PjPablo]

Like you responded to....rofl

 

 

How would a cross server tool promote more events on your server?

 

How would a cross server tool promote people talking on your server?

 

Guild drama.....How do you know? Just because they aren't talking in general it doesn't exist?

 

You must of missed it then:

 

X-server LFD isn't a panacea for the community issue. Never said it was. It is a tool for one thing. Getting quick groups and for that it does it's job well.

 

Community is created by people, not functionality. The reason I mention the lack of community is in response to the common phrase 'LFD ruins communities". In my case, even though LFD doesn't ruin communities in my experience, there is nothing to ruin.

 

As far as guild drama....see the little winky eye......

 

To translate....it does not do anything for community, pro or con.

Edited February 13, 2012 by PjPablo

[Varghjerta]

Well, there are a lot of flaws WoW had in my eyes, but the LFG tool is the least of them as far as I'm concerned.

 

Also, it's rather rude and uncalled for to call someone's request "nonsense" just because you don't agree with it. What's ironic is you think a LFG tool is not a good idea because it will lead to trolling, and in the very post you expressed this, you halfway trolled.

 

Careful.

 

Actually so you mean players that could be afk safe for 15 min in the start a dungeon was working intended?

[ispanolfw]

All of this back and forth is pointless really. X-server LFD will be added at some point. They are adding for PVP, and it isn't a stretch to see it added for PVE. If they were not to add it then they would need to figure out what to do about low pop servers and that is a far, far more painful decision than simply adding x-server LFD.

 

The question to ask is what will keep people playing the game. Do people want to run more content? If so, they add x-server LFD. At this point in the game's evolution I don't even see this as an option. It is a basic MMO necessity that the game needs to remain relevant. What player when faced with the decision of running content quickly and running content slowly because it takes longer to find a group or not running it at all simply because they cannot find others to run with chooses the later? That's the calculation at the end of the day.

 

Because all you're looking at is the time aspect. Don't get me wrong, I know there are plenty who just want to get it done and over with. But not everyone is "omg this is boring, I just want to click a button and be done with it" (Exaggeration, but hopefully you see the point)

 

Like leveling as an example. No matter how easy or difficult it is, there will always be people who hate leveling and only "have fun" at the end. And on the flip side, you will always have people who enjoy the journey more than the destination.

[Varghjerta]

All these percentages are bullsh*t. The choice to use the tool or not isn't found in an equation, it rests with the individual.

 

'Having no choice' is the situation we have NOW, where finding a pickup group DEMANDS that you spam general on the fleet - yet you're saying that actually having a choice whether to use a LFG tool or not means that nobody has a choice? Absurd.

 

No that is actually also an assumption dont you know any people you can ask?

Or even use general on the planet you are on.

Those are avaible to you as it is now.

 

What you want is one button accept group invite while being AFK

Edited February 13, 2012 by Varghjerta

[ferroz]

But...they are objective, valid concerns...

No... they're not. I have a feeling that you don't understand what objective means.

 

I was pretty straight forward in explaining why they weren't objective reasons. If you want, I'll try and help you understand.

 

an unsupported claim is not an objective reason.

a false statement is not an objective reason.

an opinion is not an objective reason.

Edited February 13, 2012 by ferroz

[PjPablo]

Because all you're looking at is the time aspect. Don't get me wrong, I know there are plenty who just want to get it done and over with. But not everyone is "omg this is boring, I just want to click a button and be done with it" (Exaggeration, but hopefully you see the point)

 

Like leveling as an example. No matter how easy or difficult it is, there will always be people who hate leveling and only "have fun" at the end. And on the flip side, you will always have people who enjoy the journey more than the destination.

 

Absolutely agree. There will always be different 'appetites'. I just see the quick group/slower group question as clearly on the side of most wanting to get a group sooner than later is all.

 

I am not downplaying others play styles at all. Going back to the majority/minority bit I just think (opinion here guys, not fact) that the majority would rather spend their time running content and not putting a group together. That is why LFD has been popular and effective.

 

EDIT: That is also why you have seen a move away from large raid groups, like 40 in early wow, to smaller groups. it's easier and quicker to put together a smaller raid than a larger one.

Edited February 13, 2012 by PjPablo

[ispanolfw]

All these percentages are bullsh*t. The choice to use the tool or not isn't found in an equation, it rests with the individual.

 

'Having no choice' is the situation we have NOW, where finding a pickup group DEMANDS that you spam general on the fleet - yet you're saying that actually having a choice whether to use a LFG tool or not means that nobody has a choice? Absurd.

 

Actually it's not. Some want it, some don't. Some don't care. It comes, the ones who wanted it use it. The ones in the middle see that grouping normally is more time consuming now, so they use it now too. Now the people who don't want to use it have a much longer time finding a group, some may even leave the game, even FURTHER increasing the time spent. And in many cases making it so they hardly ever get groups at all. So now they either go without doing anything with a group because it's so rare to get one now, or they use the Tool that they didn't want.

 

How is that optional? You're looking at the "you can just not use it" and saying optional, but it's more than that. Putting it in just flips the roles in your little explanation.

[Norbix]

LOOK PEOPLE, you guys had your chance at "community building" and FAILED. It didn't work, and people are stuck in their fleets LFG when they shouldn't be. It's really as simple as that. Stop bringing up this notion of community in a WoW inspired game, it's just NOT HAPPENING.

[dutch-master]

A LFD tool doesn't hinder people in making friends, the lack of social activities in the current state of the game, however, does. Besides you'll also be playing with 'doucebags' on your own server, a LFD tool will not make this worse, we'll instead be playing more and thus be seeing them more.

 

Its true, it would be nice. Every game that has the ability has benefited from it. Granted, you can use /who to find people and ask them to help. The thing is, unless they know you, they probably want to have nothing to do with you and your Kaon under siege run...

[Lorgrin]

im sure this has been said before, but here goes.

 

The reason I like the LFD tool, is because if it works right, it creates well rounded groups. (tank, healer, and 2 dps)

 

I sat in the Republic Fleet the other night on a new character for over 4o minutes trying to just get a group for Hammer Station. I put myself up on the LFG tool thing with a message saying I need a group for Hammer. Only one other person out of the 65 people on the fleet had flagged themselves for LFG. In my opinion this is just not working.

 

One thing that I hate is having to make my way over back to my ship, fly to the fleet, head down to the quest terminal area....and there is nobody down there. Well there went a good 10 minutes or so I could have used to quest more! (and therein lies the problem) Players find the flashpoints too much of a bother, so why do them.

 

Please Bioware, this is obviously something your customers want.