How can you accept a group invite if you're AFK?

No. They're not OBJECTIVE. They're SUBJECTIVE.

Haha. Sorry, but you can't counter "prove that this isn't buII****" with "prove that it is". You asked me to counter your arguments and I did. You're now trying to counter mine with "prove it". See where we're going? My "proof" would be a plethora of personal experiences, which you'd counter by saying are "anecdotal and therefore not copacetic evidence" bla bla bla - I get it. We're probably both right in parts - there's evidence for and against on both sides. I'm Pro-LFD, you're not. Neither of us will change our minds.

To be fair, most of these "valid concerns" are unprovable. The rest of them are problems that are created and fixed by LFG. So yeah, I'll go through that point by point giving you an answer that doesnt just consist of "i want" or whatever. 1. Prove it. 2. Xserver LFG will allow for more anonymity. Same server LFG will not. Many people are campaigning for same server LFG, but that's irrelevant. Please explain to me, what "bad behavior" are you on about? It's more anonymity to do what exactly? AFAIK, this is probably what you mean. Next to each problem is a control method that should be put in place 1. Ninja looting - only allow class based needing. Yeah, okay, occasionally the same class will be adamant that he needs something more than you, but what exactly will you do if he's on your server, name and shame him because he wanted an item that you wanted? Get real please. 2. verbal griefing - see the ignore button? You dont have to listen to someone who insults you, but for the sake of doing a dungeon, it won't kill you to group with them if you can keep them ignored. 3. Leaving after joining. A problem created... and solved by LFG. 4. Not being social - so not being social is now classed as bad behaviour? Oh sorry, i didn't realise these forums were ran by the social police. 5. People acting stupid, mass pulling or just griefing in general - votekick them? Or leave and reque? So it's anonymity to do one of the five above things without someone crying in global about how you ruined his run. 3. The absense of it is affecting those who wish for it to be in the game, and most of them are unsubbing, leading to more absense of players and more people who will be forever LFG. This is one of those points where those who want it win and those who don't lose. Sorry - but majority is majority, and at the end of the day, Bioware would rather have the subs from the majority. 4. It's not really is it, and the above 3 points give reasons for that. This isnt really a fourth reason, just a blind assertion. Try again please.

I probably said that myself several posts, several weeks, several debates ago. I only log on the forums to debate this stupid topic because its funny. Ofc we'll get a LFG system eventually - and when we do, I'll be resubbing.

I'm not saying it doesnt happen. In fact, it happens regardless of a LFG system. But with a LFG system and dual specs, thats a mendable hole. With SWTOR, that's happened and it's killed the group for the other 3 people.

Idd. I've a lot of experience of both having and not having it on WoW and Rift. It's a standard feature these days - similarly to how when we buy a car or a mobile phone we expect certain features. Back in the old days these things had only functional usage. It's the same for MMOs

I have a higher level of annoymity if I walk around with a darth vader mask on and hit people with a crowbar. If I was the sort of person who did that, I wouldn't care whether I had anonymity or not.

Not to mention the fact that you can have 400 crafting on 3 professions without ever having left the trade section of the main city

yeah because we're like, the bane of all evil for wanting something that makes the game slightly more enjoyable. How exactly will dual specs ruin the game?

Trion (the people who made Rift) certainly don't regret putting it in theres. Rift put a huge dent in WoW subs, and SWTOR hasn't pulled more than a handful of Rifters away from the game because Rift just works... wheras SWTOR doesn't really work that well. Thats not just to the absense of a LFG system, but having one in would be a huge sub-keeper for a lot of people.

Haha. This is just lol. I never said they couldn't find each other. I said it takes more effort than most people enjoy to find each other. And for the record, there are losts of servers, with lots of people on who play at different times. I'd wager quite a few of these are in my situation. Even people who are on big servers and normally dont have huge problems with LFG, would probably still rather have one than not have one. I'd rather spend an hour doing PvP than pming people to put a group together. Guilds are an answer I guess, but then not everyone has a guild. Why should these people not be able to enjoy the game?

I didn't insult anybody. I made a blatant observation. I'm not saying "me me me me" at all. I'm speaking for the thousands of others who are in my situation. I don't want Bio to create a tool "just for me". I want them to create one to enhance the game and make it easier to get a group = more fun. Oh wait no, i'm sorry - it's my fault because I'm on a low pop server, rather than your awesome high pop server with uber players. Forgive me - I'm obviously not entitled to my own opinion, a view on this frankly, stupid debate and my sub is less important to Bioware than yours is.

You're right. It's a byproduct of playing with people. I formed plenty of groups in vanilla wow and met idiots who I later ignored. When the LFG tool came out, i only saw an increase in idiots because I had an increase in groups. The ratio of idiots:normal people stayed the same. I would have thought it mathematically obvious that whether you form a group with random people on your server, or not on your server, the chances of encountering a griefer are pretty much even, unless there are entire servers full of idiots that should be avoided.

For the third and final time. Other people have already said this to you so i'll say it in plain english 1. my server is low populated 2. my server has very few people who want to do HM 3. On a peak time, there will be maybe 3 or 4 people, max about 5 LFG to do HM. Most of those are DPS. I'm a tank, just so's you know, and I find it hard. I cant imagine what it must be like for DPSers. 4. I do PM people who I see LFG, if there ever are any. Usually there aren't, but on the occasions there are, I usually get a run out of it. 5. So we conclude, I get one run every... week? Out of every 5 2-3 hour sittings i spend trying everything I can to find a group, maybe one of those will in fact yield a good result. Then there's still the issue of actually finishing the run, which occasionally doesn't happen. I'm sorry, but that just isnt enough for me. I don't pay for this game to do that. If it doesn't improve, I'll take my sub elsewhere. I want to be able to do at least 2 runs in the space of 3 hours or so. Is that too much to ask? do you understand what I'm saying? Probably not because by the looks of things your comprehension of the English language is below average

For me, atm, SWTOR feels like a huge single player game because my server is dead, and it's excrutiating trying to get a group together. A LFG system would allow me to play with other people rather than just rolling alts for the story. Atm, SWTOR is something i play during Rift downtime - but originally i wanted it to be my main game. So far, it just feels like a single player game with PvP.

It isn't - but that's how the game is supposed to be played. If you want to run a dungeon, you have to "work hard" by trying to find a group, and the more difficult the grouping process, the better it is, because then you're just greatful to get a run, rather than whine about getting no loot - if you DO get loot, its like the best thing ever. So yeah, the grouping process is made extremely difficult so that instances are more enjoyable, and people are less likely to leave. Ofc, if someone DCs or leaves suddenly, that's a different matter - but most of the anti-LFGers are in super hardcore guilds that prioritise the game over RL, and will NEVER leave a run for anything. If it takes 12 hours, so be it. That's the point the Anti LFG people are trying to argue.

Wow. 53 pages and the only legit reason I could find to stand against the huge ammounts of beneficial things a LFG system could bring to the game is something along the lines of: "I'm a veteran SWG player and dislike anything that differs from classic SWG. I want to be punished and have huge repair bills and be forced to play one role and be elite at it because customisation is for idiots and ******* who can't play one role effectively. LFG will hurt the community because it makes the game like wow. Wow is for tards, and I don't like tards. Tards should go back to wow. If 90% of this community is tards, their subs are worth less than mine, because I am in an awesome guild and don't need a LFG tool, so good luck - rest of the community, I don't care about you, because my "community" that I love is a circle of self absorbed elitist *****s who don't need LFG, so why should it be in the game?" I.e. about 2% of the entire SWTOR population.

WoW didn't pull it off quite as well as Rift did. Rift dungeons still take 40mins - 1 hour and are formed using an LFG tool. I've yet to encounter any of the above problems after nearly a year of playing, except in one or two isolated exceptions in very early game.

I don't want a cross server LFG tool. I think Cross Server really eliminates any sort of rammifaction from wrongdoing. You can perfom badly, and never have to see the people you play with again. Grief people and never have to face up to it. Same Server LFG will bring you convenient grouping without letting griefers off the hook. I've campaigned since launch for a LFG tool - but never for a cross-server one.

whiny complainers are subs too. Why is your sub any more valuable than mine just because I don't worship Bioware to the point that I can't see fault in their game? I like the game - that's why I'm on the forums talking about how it can be improved. If I didn't care, I'd unsub and leave the forums without talking about it, like I did with the other MMOs that didn't interest me, or were too broken to speculate fixes.

You make a valid point - sadly this attitude doesn't sell games. Read my above aqrgument about the cars. Devs need to realise what will sell and what won't.

When you buy anything, there are standard features that you more or less expect to get for your money. If you go out and buy a brand new car, you expect that car to have at least a working engine, a steering wheel, a radio, windscreen wipers, wheels, a locking system and seatbelts etc etc etc. Then there are the less mandatory, but still pretty much expected things these days like automatic windows, ABS, sat-nav, an on-board computer and a decent sdound system. Then maybe even some really cool things to set it aside from other cars on the market like maybe... oh I don't know. An Ejector seat? or TV screens in the back seats? A fridge? You get the idea. Anyway, supposing this new brand of car, promising to be the car to end all cars, was missing one or more of the Mandatory features (in MMO terms you could liken these to a chat system, a grouping system and some form of Auction House or trade system) then it will be laughed out of the game market. SWTOR has most of the mandatory features an MMO should have, but has next to none of the standard, expected features that are present in Rift, WoW... hell even Warhammer Online and Aion, and many of the F2P games that I've tried between then and now. Rift is the king of MMOs atm, as it contains more features than any of the other afformentioned games, and really sets the bar for what every MMO developer should probably aim for. Taking these features and using them is like making a new brand of car. If a car was any different, it wouldn't be a car. It would be a spaceship, or a helicopter. What it all comes down to is: would you buy a car that didn't have a steering wheel because the developers were too busy making sure that the buttons for the radio (that didn't work) felt nice when they were pressed? That's how it feels playing SWTOR - too much focus in the wrong areas of the game. This game lacks so many features that are not just "stuff wow has that make it easier for noobs" - it lacks features that are a modern standard for any MMO. SWTOR felt like a huge step back in terms of MMO. It's beyond the point of having a "classic feel". It's coming off as just a huge lack of effort on game development from BW, because they spent too much time and money on voice overs that only a fraction of people care about enough to the point where they can totally overlook the game's problems. I'm going to get lots of flame and hatred for even suggesting that there are actually people out there who care more about the game than the story, but as good as the Voice Over work is, it's just not enough to make the actual game more enjoyable post 50.

A dungeon finder will increase subs. Even the UO ghouls that are so avidly against the existence of anything that will reduce the waiting and increase the fun in a game that people are paying X ammount of money a month to play, can't argue with the fact that more subs = more money = more new content. Before anyone argues against the idea of having one - nobody has ever given a decent reason why there should not be a dungeon finder. The most convincing argument i ever heard was "this isn't wow". However, WoW has more subs than SWTOR and that isn't just because WoW has a dungeon finder, it's because WoW isn't a broken, half playable ball of mess. Rift is ran by a smaller company, who are infinitely more competant than Bioware and EA at running an MMO - EA completely screwed up Warhammer, and they're doing the same to SWTOR. The sheer frustration and anger i feel at Bioware atm, the feeling of "guys, seriously, what the hell are you doing with my sub money?" was felt unanimously by players Warhammer Online, and the scariest thing is, I'm seeing exactly the same trends here in SWTOR. A lot of people I know are cancelling their subs. I probably will when I hit 50 and get rolled in PvP because expertise gear takes a long time to grind these days. I'll see how much i can put up with, then unsub.

@ the OP You forgot to include... everything that is actually wrong with the game. You just named things that you personally don't like about the game, but that others do - while neglecting to mention the excessive ammount of features that do not work as intended. The game has a MASSIVE ammount of problems. Most of them lie with bugs, half baked gameplay, class balance, RNG issues, bs loot drops for classes that aren't even on your faction, a plethora of ridiculous, unacceptable bugs that should have been removed before the game went live, grind based PvP gameplay and on top of all that, a huge lack of standard MMO features that would make the game a lot less painful to play. Overall, the game is about 10 steps backwards from even classic WoW and EQ1. It's a single player game with a multiplayer function, and should not have been released as early as it was. I hate to say it but please, "go back to wow".