Dual-spec Coming and no changing advanced classes!

[Surakis]

No, they aren't. Developers have said they aren't. If you argue the semantics of the name, you will lose every time.

 

You ignoring facts is not going to change it either. The class is Jedi Knight. Sentinel and Guardian are just branches off that base class. They share the same base abilities. The same skills. It's simply fact.

[TyHeaton]

Those are different groups of people, and it's clear which group they're listening to. Yay!

 

Amen!

[aznthecapn]

You ignoring facts is not going to change it either. The class is Jedi Knight. Sentinel and Guardian are just branches off that base class. They share the same base abilities. The same skills. It's simply fact.

 

You're wrong. That's not a fact at all. They are different classes, as was said by developers. Could they have done a better job of showing the difference between the classes? Sure, but that's an argument for another day. All evidence points to them being different classes. Different skill trees (even the shared one), the vast majority of abilities are different, different armor between some, remarkably different playstyles between some. All these are hallmarks of differing classes. Calling them "advanced classes" is just a name. Its not indicative of any root need to switch between them.

 

While we're on the subject of semantics, what do you define as "base abilities" and why does this matter? All classes get speeder piloting, quick travel, emergency fleet pass, weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies. Does this mean all classes are the same because they share these base abilities?

[Skylarke]

Those MMOs died for a reason. They weren't providing the market with what it wanted.

 

Clearly WoW does. I haven't played in months but to call it "bad for mmos" is just dumb.

 

I played DAoC a lot longer post launch than I did WoW. What killed DAoC for me was the horrible expansion - ToA. I'd play a DAoC2 in a heartbeat (only PvP in any MMORPG that was worth a da** and I loved my lurikeen!). You couldn't pay me enough to go back to WoW or play a WoW2.

 

[TyHeaton]

It wont stop. Bioware gave that inch.

 

Now they will continue to say they should have AC duel specs and say because you added duel specs after launch you should do it for AC also.

 

I give it 2-3 months before duel spec in AC is added after they do duel specs because acter they add duel specs they dont care about the game but just trying to keep peoples money.

 

I love when people say EA/Bioware don't care about their own game. It just shows how ignorant some people are.

[TyHeaton]

Sales do not mean what wow did was good for mmos . Now all we get.are more and more dumbed down games all Reinhold to be the same. How is that good.

 

Sales do not make a good game they make a lackluster dumbed down cartoon for kids .

Id give my left arm for a DAoC 2 . Or a UO 2 that Ea didt have a hand in that had the cash dumped into this game did.

 

For every person that believes WoW dumbed down MMO's there are 10 others who are glad it made them more accessible to a more casual playerbase. Roll with the times and stop complaining that things aren't like "the good old days".

[Ngamok]

Show me an mmo that lets you change your class

 

SWG. You could be anything you wanted since it was classless.

[TyHeaton]

You can make no logical argument to preclude AC changing bur allow dual spec'ing.

 

Yes you can.

[Lazirus-]

Sales do not mean what wow did was good for mmos

 

lol

 

That's exactly what it means.

[Ngamok]

Yeh but others will be playing in a way I don't want them to be.

 

This bothers me greatly.

 

What?

[Ngamok]

This game isn't rocket science. They'll figure out how to tank or heal in a day or two. I can easily learn all 3 roles on any class. Can't you figure out just 2 on the same one?

 

Oh believe me, there are some real baddies out there who go from DPS to Tank and just are completely useless.

[SeanC]

You're wrong. That's not a fact at all. They are different classes, as was said by developers. Could they have done a better job of showing the difference between the classes? Sure, but that's an argument for another day. All evidence points to them being different classes. Different skill trees (even the shared one), the vast majority of abilities are different, different armor between some, remarkably different playstyles between some. All these are hallmarks of differing classes. Calling them "advanced classes" is just a name. Its not indicative of any root need to switch between them.

 

While we're on the subject of semantics, what do you define as "base abilities" and why does this matter? All classes get speeder piloting, quick travel, emergency fleet pass, weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies. Does this mean all classes are the same because they share these base abilities?

 

So the whole basis of your arguement is the fact that the devs have stated that there are eight "distinct" and different classes to play. I dont disgaree with the fact of them not allowing AC respec, but to say sent/guardian are played differently and have a whole different mechanic to play is pretty much absurd. The only "huge" difference between the two classes is the fact that one can tank, other than that they are played pretty the same way. You build up focus, then use specials to use focus. Doesn't change much more than that. The shared one between the two is identical also.

 

I'm pretty much spilt between the issue, I see both sides of why some people want it and some people don't, but to say that there is a huge difference between sent/guardian is where I disagree with you. If there was a huge difference in leveling the other advance class I would say that there is no reason for you to be able to change your advance class, but since the difference is pretty minimal, I'm atleast leaning to atleast being able to change the advance class one time.

[Ngamok]

Fun fact, wow actually released in a superior state compared to the game you claim it has copied. And has been superior to everything else since.

 

Swtor released as a game basically identical to wow in most aspects (everything that doesn't include voice acting/quests) while also failing miserably at delivering basically ALL the functionality/quality of life features wow enjoys, so the guy who said swtor failed at copying is right.

 

You can't copy something and forget to include all the mandatory stuff that make the source material work, it's just dumb.

 

LOL, you say that Wintergrasp is a superior design even though all you did was freeze frame your way to the doors once you broke through a wall?

 

How much sand did you run in Silithis back to your faction base? Dead concept right there. Did nothing for open world PvP which is what it was supposed to do.

 

Flipping towers in Terrokar was ok. Not very popular but it was something, same for the village in Nagrand. People only did it enough to get the mount and never came back almost.

 

Notice all the world PvP stuff never worked out for them? Tol Barad was probably the best. Suprised they never fully took Public Questing from Warhammer which was the best part of that game.

 

Lots of people said they should have done it DAoC style. I never played it since I was still into EQ at the time then moved over to SWG.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Ngamok

[aznthecapn]

I dont disgaree with the fact of them not allowing AC respec, but to say sent/guardian are played differently and have a whole different mechanic to play is pretty much absurd. The only "huge" difference between the two classes is the fact that one can tank, other than that they are played pretty the same way. You build up focus, then use specials to use focus. Doesn't change much more than that. The shared one between the two is identical also.

 

You picked two classes out of 16. Smuggler ACs, Consular ACs, Agent ACs, and Inquisitor ACs, are far more different in their playstyles. A ranged caster vs. a melee stealth. Even a trooper and bounty hunter ACs are pretty different. If you whittle it down the very basic form of resource management, then yes, you can make almost any class look the same. Hell, do it to WoW and all but three classes (and until Cataclysm two classes) would look identical.

 

Shared trees for some classes are different. The design is different but different skills are affected in different ways. They are not identical for everyone.

[SeanC]

You picked two classes out of 16. Smuggler ACs, Consular ACs, Agent ACs, and Inquisitor ACs, are far more different in their playstyles. A ranged caster vs. a melee stealth. Even a trooper and bounty hunter ACs are pretty different. If you whittle it down the very basic form of resource management, then yes, you can make almost any class look the same. Hell, do it to WoW and all but three classes (and until Cataclysm two classes) would look identical.

 

Shared trees for some classes are different. The design is different but different skills are affected in different ways. They are not identical for everyone.

 

Thats why I'm spilt between the issue. There are "big" enough differences between the other classes, but when it comes down to sent/guardians and the sith counterparts, they are pretty much identical. The play style is the same, the mechanics are the same. Which is the whole point of my arguement where you pretty much ignore. Thats why I don't see a problem if they let a one time respec with advance classes.

[aznthecapn]

Thats why I'm spilt between the issue. There are "big" enough differences between the other classes, but when it comes down to sent/guardians and the sith counterparts, they are pretty much identical. The play style is the same, the mechanics are the same. Which is the whole point of my arguement where you pretty much ignore. Thats why I don't see a problem if they let a one time respec with advance classes.

 

I didn't ignore it. I get what you're saying. I have a level 40 Guardian. However, when you look at it objectively, if half the classes are a dramatics shift in playstyle and half the classes are not, the wise thing to do is err on the side of caution and not allow class changes.

 

I think a more prudent course of action is find a way to further differentiate between the Sith Warrior and Jedi Knight ACs so people don't feel like changing classes is a minimal thing. Classes should feel epic and unique. Operatives and Snipers feel that way. Guardians and Sentinels do not.

[SeanC]

I didn't ignore it. I get what you're saying. I have a level 40 Guardian. However, when you look at it objectively, if half the classes are a dramatics shift in playstyle and half the classes are not, the wise thing to do is err on the side of caution and not allow class changes.

 

I think a more prudent course of action is find a way to further differentiate between the Sith Warrior and Jedi Knight ACs so people don't feel like changing classes is a minimal thing. Classes should feel epic and unique. Operatives and Snipers feel that way. Guardians and Sentinels do not.

 

Thats where I agree with you and see why they dont want to do it. I do feel a one time respec could easily solve the problem though. Or where you have to pay money to change it. lol

[Sylriana]

I have a level 40 Guardian. However, when you look at it objectively, if half the classes are a dramatics shift in playstyle and half the classes are not, the wise thing to do is err on the side of caution and not allow class changes.

 

I actually disagree. Dramatic shifts in playstyle within a class aren't necessarily a bad thing (quite the opposite, sometimes they can improve longevity by giving you more options to explore).

 

Looking back to that MMO that shall not be named, I think one of the reasons I kept playing some of the classes as long as I did was specifically because of how changing certain class' talent specs was almost comparable to playing a new class entirely. TOR has the advantage of more nuance ( because those wildly different specs are instead self contained classes with multiple specs of their own ) but you lose the ability to dramatically shift around your style ( with a few exceptions )...

 

I think that losing that dramatic shift sort of hurts the game, and creates an incidental effect where certain ACs feel "incomplete" because of the way they force themselves to forgo class mechanics in order to 'save' them for the other AC ( at least, this is sort of how I felt regarding my operative, where suddenly the class' unique and arguably defining mechanic is suddenly rendered irrelevant and useless, without any option to utilize it at all. I have all of these vestigial abilities that I actively want to avoid utilizing, and it makes the class feel unfinished. I sort of get the same vibe from the sorcerer, though to a much lesser extent, and with the knight/warrior ACs, while I don't feel incomplete per se, the divisions do feel largely arbitrary in nature ).

 

In that respect, sometimes I think BW might have been better served making this a 4 class game with 5 talent trees per class instead.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Sylriana

[Englefield]

That's a slippery slope argument that doesn't hold water. Dual spec doesn't let you change specs more often (at least not inherently though it is a side affect), it allows you to change specs more conveniently. Its not even the cost factor I'm concerned about. Its A) having a spec pre-set to swap to, B) swapping bars and skills out instead of by hand and, this is the fun part, C) being able to do it without having to visit the skill mentor.

 

 

Except it does affect everyone. Its been rehashed many, many times in another thread that is now closed because the mod who posted in it linked the quote from, the Q&A and that's the end of the discussion. Its title is "Bioware: Allow Us To Change Advanced Classes" or something to that effect. You're welcome to read the many reasons there and decide for yourself.

 

In my mind, and you may disagree, its fine, changing ACs diminishes the lifespan of the game, negatively affects balance and is harmful to the existing class structure as we know it. This is how SWTOR was designed - eight distinct classes. The developers agree (for the time being). It may be like WoW and they change dev teams over the months and years and the next team comes in and says "nope, they are 4 classes, let people switch". I'll rail against it. I'll hate it. But in the end it boils down to how the developers see the future of the game and, for the foreseeable future, we see eye to eye.

 

Of course it's a slippery slope, that is the basis of your argument for dual specs, I can respec therefore I should be able to respec easier. You're looking at respecs as a dual spec option and that is not what it's there for. How long after dual spec is introduced do you think it will be before some start asking for three? Or AC swaps?

 

What will you say to those that want to heal, dps and then pvp (or heal and tank) that then use your own arguments against you?

 

You last paragraph speaks volumes. Please note, I don't actually want to see AC swaps, but then again I don't really support dual specs either. The point I am trying to make is that every argument you have used to support dual specs will be used against you by those that want dual AC.

 

Similarly, every argument you have used against dual AC has been used many times by those against dual specs, and duely (and conveniently) ignored by people like yourself. Some might see that as being a little hypocritical.

[Deewe]

We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon

Whatever they are different classes or not, it's no excuse. In Rift I can have 5 totally different templates, which are even more different one from the other than in TOR, on the same character.

[Yakito]

It hurts me that Dual Spec is coming.

 

Maybe if you could make u mind on what you want to play we wouldn't have to have this "feature", but thanks to those undecided girls we "need" dual spec.

 

Good job community. Let's pat all those lazy people on the backs, because thanks to them ToR is finally going into a good direction - to the dark botomles void.

 

I'm going to enjoy it while I can. Dual spec is going to make ToR community as lazy as WoW community. One more thing that we need - Dungeon Finder. Then ToR will complete it's journey to the Dark Side of the force and will become a pathetic copy of another game.

 

 

There should be a choice:

You have dual spec and you lose the chance to EVER have Dungeon Finder

You have Dungeon Finder and you will NEVER EVER EVER have Dual spec

 

Dual spec is the lesser evil so I am glad. I just hope that the second thing doesn't follow the stink of Dual Spec to this game or it will be dead to me.

 

Funny, I am still laughing at myself for defending Dual Spec on Warcraft forums before it was implemented. Oh the irony!

I am just as sad as you are.

[Claymaniac]

They are essentially the same class... hence the the term Advanced Class....

 

 

 

How so? I play a sage and I asked my friend who plays a Shadow to take over me as a healer in a fp and he said he can't heal. but if he's "essentially the same class" shouldn't he be able to? And why can't I tank like he can?

[Camilladilla]

Major major major kudos to Bioware for both features, they were both sorely needed in the game.

[aznthecapn]

Of course it's a slippery slope, that is the basis of your argument for dual specs, I can respec therefore I should be able to respec easier. You're looking at respecs as a dual spec option and that is not what it's there for. How long after dual spec is introduced do you think it will be before some start asking for three? Or AC swaps?

 

What will you say to those that want to heal, dps and then pvp (or heal and tank) that then use your own arguments against you?

 

You last paragraph speaks volumes. Please note, I don't actually want to see AC swaps, but then again I don't really support dual specs either. The point I am trying to make is that every argument you have used to support dual specs will be used against you by those that want dual AC.

 

Similarly, every argument you have used against dual AC has been used many times by those against dual specs, and duely (and conveniently) ignored by people like yourself. Some might see that as being a little hypocritical.

 

I can see how you think the arguments might be similar, but they aren't. I've been discussing eight ways from Sunday since beta. I've seen every argument for and against and I can see the difference.

[aznthecapn]

Whatever they are different classes or not, it's no excuse. In Rift I can have 5 totally different templates, which are even more different one from the other than in TOR, on the same character.

 

This isn't Rift.