Dual-spec Coming and no changing advanced classes!

[TKMaster]

So, you couldn't come up with any supporting evidence, and just fall back on asserting "no no no no" while sticking your fingers in your ears?

 

Warriors and paladins share none of the same abilities.

Feral (tank) druids and restoration druids share some of the same abilities, but have some specific ones gained by their class.

Shadow (tank) consulars and sage (healer) consulars share some of the same abilities, but have some specific ones gained by their class.

 

 

clearly: the advance class change for a shadow tank to a sage healer is analogous to switching from feral tank spec to restoration healing spec for a druid, and is not analogous to a changing from a warrior to a paladin..

 

Really doesnt matter if he had any evidence, BIOWARE (you know, the makers of the game) have said your AC is your class, you can cry till your blue in the face, kick, scream, yell, and hold your breath....wont change anything.

[Holden_Dissent]

So, you couldn't come up with any supporting evidence, and just fall back on asserting "no no no no" while sticking your fingers in your ears?

 

Warriors and paladins share none of the same abilities.

Feral (tank) druids and restoration druids share some of the same abilities, but have some specific ones gained by their class.

Shadow (tank) consulars and sage (healer) consulars share some of the same abilities, but have some specific ones gained by their class.

 

 

clearly: the advance class change for a shadow tank to a sage healer is analogous to switching from feral tank spec to restoration healing spec for a druid, and is not analogous to a changing from a warrior to a paladin..

 

you're wrong.

[ferroz]

Except it's another game, not WoW. If you want a game that is TOTALLY like WoW (even though this one is very similar in many aspects) there's an excellent option for you, it still has about 10 million subscribers etc. Google it if you want.

I'm not the one who brought up the wow analogy. I'm just the one who fixed it, since it wasn't a good analogy.

 

By the way, all analogies' validity depend on where you draw the line. Both the Jedi Knight and the Jedi Consular are Jedi and use lightsabers (and training sabers and vibroswords). Why can't I switch between them?

Different companions; different storyline; different base abilities (a shadow and a sage do since they're both from the same class); different voice actor.

 

That said: if you want to petition bioware for that, go ahead; I'm not going to argue with it if that's what you want.

 

Still a firm NO to being able to switch from a stealth melee class to a ranged caster class. Even if WoW allows it. It defeats the entire point of character progression of an RPG if you can do just about anything within a single character. I know many people want MMO action games instead of RPGs but don't let them succeed.

Rift allows it too (from a stealth class to a tank class to a ranged dps class to a ranged or melee support class).

[ferroz]

Really doesnt matter if he had any evidence, BIOWARE (you know, the makers of the game) have said your AC is your class, you can cry till your blue in the face, kick, scream, yell, and hold your breath....wont change anything.

SoE said it was not just difficult, but impossible to increase the maximum bag capacity or the size of your bank...

 

Even if they've said that in the past doesn't mean that they'll stay committed to that stance.

Edited February 21, 2012 by ferroz

[Raansu]

So, you couldn't come up with any supporting evidence, and just fall back on asserting "no no no no" while sticking your fingers in your ears?

 

Warriors and paladins share none of the same abilities.

Feral (tank) druids and restoration druids share some of the same abilities, but have some specific ones gained by their class.

Shadow (tank) consulars and sage (healer) consulars share some of the same abilities, but have some specific ones gained by their class.

 

 

clearly: the advance class change for a shadow tank to a sage healer is analogous to switching from feral tank spec to restoration healing spec for a druid, and is not analogous to a changing from a warrior to a paladin..

 

Because there is nothing to argue. Your advanced class is your class, and regardless of how you spin it, asking for a AC respec is still asking to go from a 50 rogue type to a 50 healer/ 50 warrarior to a 50 paladin / 50 rogue type to a 50 hunter. You are asking to switch to a completely different class.

 

You can spin your Druid spec all you want, but you are still a Druid. Sages and Shadows are two completely different classes, and if you bothered to re-roll to a sage you would realize how differently they play. Same goes for a Scoundrel to a Gunslinger. The differences between the two are so wide that asking to AC respec is beyond ridiculous. They are two completely different classes.

[ferroz]

Because there is nothing to argue.

Sure there is. You're just are unable to support your position other than using flawed analogies and asserting that you are correct.

 

Your advanced class is your class, and regardless of how you spin it, asking for a AC respec is still asking to go from a 50 rogue type to a 50 healer/ 50 warrarior to a 50 paladin / 50 rogue type to a 50 hunter. You are asking to switch to a completely different class.

No, consular is the class. A 50 rogue has no abilities or class quests in common with a 50 healer a 50 warrior has no abilities in common with a 50 paladin. A 50 rogue has no abilities in common with a 50 hunter. A sage and a shadow share the majority of their abilities. You're using a totally flawed analogy here.

 

Expecting advance class respec is no different than expecting for dual spec in wow.

 

You can spin your Druid spec all you want, but you are still a Druid.

Likewise, I would like to spin my consular spec all I want, because whether I'm a sage or a shadow, I'm still a consular.

 

Sages and Shadows are two completely different classes, and if you bothered to re-roll to a sage you would realize how differently they play. Same goes for a Scoundrel to a Gunslinger. The differences between the two are so wide that asking to AC respec is beyond ridiculous.

The differences in play are no more significant than elemental vs enhancement shaman, or a feral dps vs a boomkin or a resto druid.

 

In each case (sage vs shadow, scoundrel vs gunslinger), you're talking about the same class with different specialization, nothing more.

 

you're wrong.

So, you couldn't come up with any supporting evidence either, eh? Edited February 21, 2012 by ferroz

[Siorac]

Different companions; different storyline; different base abilities (a shadow and a sage do since they're both from the same class); different voice actor.

 

That said: if you want to petition bioware for that, go ahead; I'm not going to argue with it if that's what you want.

 

Rift allows it too (from a stealth class to a tank class to a ranged dps class to a ranged or melee support class).

 

I obviously don't want that, I'm just saying it's a question of where you draw the line. Shadows and Sages still have fundamental differences: gameplay-wise a Shadow has more in common with a Scrapper Scoundrel than with a Sage.

 

As for Rift: good, another game that gives you what you want. See, you have options.

 

Stop trying to destroy every single RPG element in MMOs. It seems sooner or later all games will be twitchy third or first person shooters. Choices should matter in an RPG.

[Telendria]

Stop trying to destroy every single RPG element in MMOs. It seems sooner or later all games will be twitchy third or first person shooters. Choices should matter in an RPG.

 

If they allow me to cut Quinns head off, then we can talk about choices in this RPG

Edited February 21, 2012 by Telendria

[ferroz]

I obviously don't want that, I'm just saying it's a question of where you draw the line. Shadows and Sages still have fundamental differences: gameplay-wise a Shadow has more in common with a Scrapper Scoundrel than with a Sage.

No, a shadow has more in common with a sage than a scoundrel:

sage vs shadow, just a couple of examples off the top of my head: both of us use force potency as a cooldown; we both may be using telekinetic throw and project as part of our rotation (depending on spec).

shadow vs scoundrel: no abilities in common.

 

Stop trying to destroy every single RPG element in MMOs.

Being able to change advanced class does not in any way, destroy any RPG element in an mmo. Edited February 21, 2012 by ferroz

[Raansu]

Sure there is. You're just are unable to support your position other than using flawed analogies and asserting that you are correct.

 

There is nothing flawed about them, you are just lazy and would rather break the system put into place.

 

No, consular is the class. A 50 rogue has no abilities or class quests in common with a 50 healer a 50 warrior has no abilities in common with a 50 paladin. A 50 rogue has no abilities in common with a 50 hunter. A sage and a shadow share the majority of their abilities. You're using a totally flawed analogy here.

 

Wrong wrong wrong and wrong. Just because the base class share abilities does not make them the same. Sage and shadows play fundamentally different, and regardless of how you want to cry about it, your AC is your main class. You made a choice, just like in any other rpg when you pick your class. There is nothing flawed about the analogy either. A scoundrel is essentially a rogue and a gunslinger is essentially a ranged class. They are fundamentally different, they each have their own unique list of skills, they are not the same. Asking for a AC respec would break how the system is designed and removes progression and choice.

 

Expecting advance class respec is no different than expecting for dual spec in wow.

 

It is completely different.

 

Likewise, I would like to spin my consular spec all I want, because whether I'm a sage or a shadow, I'm still a consular.

 

No, you are either a sage that attacks from range with force powers or heals, or you are a shadow that either dps's up close or tanks. They ARE different.

 

The differences in play are no more significant than elemental vs enhancement shaman, or a feral dps vs a boomkin or a resto druid.

 

They are completely different...

 

In each case (sage vs shadow, scoundrel vs gunslinger), you're talking about the same class with different specialization, nothing more.

 

No, we are talking about an advanced class that defines your base class. Again, they are fundamentally different, they have their own roles, they play nothing alike.

 

Quit being lazy and re-roll if you want to be a sage.

[Siorac]

No, a shadow has more in common with a sage than a scoundrel:

sage vs shadow, just a couple of examples off the top of my head: both of us use force potency as a cooldown; we both may be using telekinetic throw and project as part of our rotation (depending on spec).

shadow vs scoundrel: no abilities in common.

 

Being able to change advanced class does not in any way, destroy any RPG element in an mmo.

 

See, that's where you're wrong.

 

Scrapper Scoundrel: stealth melee class, just like the Shadow. The playstyle is very similar even if the abilities are not. Sage and Shadow share some abilities but it's a very narrow-minded view to suggest that they are in any way similar because of that. They require a totally different playstyle.

 

Saying that no abilities in common = no similarity is plain dumb. Just as it's plain dumb to say that some shared abilities ensure similarity.

 

And yes, AC switching at will does destroy RPG elements. Switching from one class to a totally different one with the blink of an eye destroys the point of progression, of building your character. If I have built myself up as a Guardian, learning its abilities gradually etc, how does it make any sense to suddenly switch to a Sentinel at 50? All those new abilities trained in the blink of an eye? How does that make sense in an RPG?

[Boldfury]

See, that's where you're wrong.

 

Scrapper Scoundrel: stealth melee class, just like the Shadow. The playstyle is very similar even if the abilities are not. Sage and Shadow share some abilities but it's a very narrow-minded view to suggest that they are in any way similar because of that. They require a totally different playstyle.

 

Saying that no abilities in common = no similarity is plain dumb. Just as it's plain dumb to say that some shared abilities ensure similarity.

 

And yes, AC switching at will does destroy RPG elements. Switching from one class to a totally different one with the blink of an eye destroys the point of progression, of building your character. If I have built myself up as a Guardian, learning its abilities gradually etc, how does it make any sense to suddenly switch to a Sentinel at 50? All those new abilities trained in the blink of an eye? How does that make sense in an RPG?

 

Guardians and Sentinels are not totally different classes, both are Jedi Knights. Totally different classes wouldn't share a whole talent tree. You'll still have the same class quests, story, companions, and starship. You are still a Jedi Knight, the class you choose at the character creation screen.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Boldfury

[RkJedi]

dual specs sounds like its gonna make some classes over powered..... stealth + dps or tank + dps or heal + dps or tank + heal or dps + dps... geez sounds easily exploitable and over power some classes i say this is a bad idea. dual spec always ends up in disaster and over powered classes... how will BW cap this? Edited February 21, 2012 by RkJedi

[ferroz]

Quit being lazy and re-roll if you want to be a sage.

Nah, I'll keep posting about it in the forums, since that's a reasonable request.

 

There is nothing flawed about them, you are just lazy and would rather break the system put into place.

I've demonstrated how they're flawed. you haven't presented any evidence as a counter argument, except to fling the "your lazy" insult. Protip: ad hominem attacks aren't a valid counter argument.

 

You also haven't demonstrated how it would break the system, in any way.

 

Wrong wrong wrong and wrong. Just because the base class share abilities does not make them the same.

I didn't say they were the same. They're different specializations of the same class though.

 

You made a choice, just like in any other rpg when you pick your class

Back when I started playing D&D, I could change classes.

 

In fact, that was the only way to play a bard back then: fighter to level 5, no more than 9, change class to thief to level 5, no more than 9, then change to a druid and at that point you were a bard (under druid tutelage).

 

but we're not talking about changing classes. I'm always going to remain a consular, whether I change to a shadow or a sage.

 

Asking for a AC respec would break how the system is designed and removes progression and choice.

you're asserting this to be true without demonstrating it in any way.

 

with the ability to change my advance class, I can progress, just like I can without it. I just have more options. So it does not, in any way, remove progression.

 

It does not remove any choices; quite the contrary, it gives the user more choices. So it clearly does not remove choice either.

 

It is completely different.

So, just asserting that I'm wrong doesn't make that true.

 

 

No, you are either a sage that attacks from range with force powers or heals, or you are a shadow that either dps's up close or tanks. They ARE different.

No, I'll still use many of the same abilities, so they have similarities.

 

There are similarities between sage and shadow. There are none between shadow and scoundrel.

 

They are completely different...

And yet, they're no more different than elemental and enhancement dps, or feral and boomkin dps...

 

No, we are talking about an advanced class that defines your base class. Again, they are fundamentally different, they have their own roles, they play nothing alike.

They play just as alike as feral dps and a boomkin... Edited February 21, 2012 by ferroz

[ferroz]

dual specs sounds like its gonna make some classes over powered..... stealth + dps or tank + dps or heal + dps or tank + heal or dps + dps... geez sounds easily exploitable and over power some classes i say this is a bad idea. dual spec always ends up in disaster and over powered classes... how will BW cap this?

This doesn't make any sense at all.

 

the characters are no more powerful with dual spec than they are with single spec.

 

how exactly does this make anything overpowered?

[ferroz]

Scrapper Scoundrel: stealth melee class, just like the Shadow. The playstyle is very similar even if the abilities are not.

No, playstyle is very much dependent on abilities.

 

The play style of an elemental shaman changed significantly just by altering one of their abilities: adding a glyph that allows casting lightning bolt on the move.

 

Scrappers and shadows play entirely differently, while sages and shadows share some similarities in playstyle due to shared abilities.

 

Sage and Shadow share some abilities but it's a very narrow-minded view to suggest that they are in any way similar because of that. They require a totally different playstyle.

No, there are definitely some similarities in playstyle due to the fact that you use some of the same abilities.

 

 

And yes, AC switching at will does destroy RPG elements.

Then name an RPG element that it destroys...

 

Switching from one class to a totally different one with the blink of an eye destroys the point of progression, of building your character.

no it doesn't. The point of progression and building your character still exists. It's exactly the same.

 

the ability to change advance classes does not, in any way, prevent you from progressing your character. If anything, it offers new ways of progressing your character.

 

If I have built myself up as a Guardian, learning its abilities gradually etc, how does it make any sense to suddenly switch to a Sentinel at 50?

You obviously learned some more new abilities, just like you did when you went from level 49 to level 50.

 

All those new abilities trained in the blink of an eye?

Who says it has to be learned in the blink of an eye? Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

And really, even if you are talking about doing it in the blink of an eye, how is that any different than respeccing from a kinetic shadow to a dps spec?

 

How does that make sense in an RPG?

Force transferred memories. Quasi-sci fi like the power soldiers.

 

From an in-universe perspective, switching from guardian to sentinel is no different than switching to ataru form. That gets learned in a blink of an eye as well: one level you don't know it at all, the next you do.

 

that's how a lot of rpg's work... even pen and paper ones.

 

Say: 3.5 edition D&D. One level you don't know how to power attack. The next, you pick the feat and can power attack.

Edited February 21, 2012 by ferroz

[DarthKhaos]

I don't get this AC argument. In FFXI the class/profession mechanic was about Main & Secondary Profession. You cannot make a second character unless you pay extra money for one. Your one character is all the various classes/professions HOWEVER you HAVE to level them separately.

 

In World of Warcraft only 2 classes in the game have the ability to spec both Tank and Heals and they've had so many changes to those classes they are no longer the same as in original WoW. Even so they're making it more and more do one or the other.

 

SW:TOR went with a different route from both. Why is that so hard to understand? One of the things they are pushing with the game is to level multiple characters. I don't see why they'd want to implement a system to discourage making multiple characters.

[Boldfury]

I don't get this AC argument. In FFXI the class/profession mechanic was about Main & Secondary Profession. You cannot make a second character unless you pay extra money for one. Your one character is all the various classes/professions HOWEVER you HAVE to level them separately.

 

In World of Warcraft only 2 classes in the game have the ability to spec both Tank and Heals and they've had so many changes to those classes they are no longer the same as in original WoW. Even so they're making it more and more do one or the other.

 

SW:TOR went with a different route from both. Why is that so hard to understand? One of the things they are pushing with the game is to level multiple characters. I don't see why they'd want to implement a system to discourage making multiple characters.

 

The current system already discourages making multiple characters for some people. Some people don't want to play through the same class quests and story to play a different advanced class.

[WutsInAName]

Dual Spec is coming and it is only a matter of time. Pretty exciting.

 

I for one am all for this idea, I'm just hoping people stop complaining that they can't change their advanced class. It just doesn't make sense whether there is a story or not involved, if you want to change to the other advanced class make a new guy!

 

Nuts to that, IF the story was different I might might might roll the same class. However is 100% IDENTICAL! As in not one single variation in any way shape or form.

 

 

Duel AC will be brought in mark my words. BW is king at backflipping on its own statements this much should be apparent by now.

 

I also dont get why ppl are arguing different AC are different playstyle, thats the point you nerf herders. The story is what is holding it back. Every storyline I experienced dries up around lvl 40. People generally will not do that again, heck after making two storylines to 40 im happy if I dont do anymore and just focus on endgame.

Edited February 21, 2012 by WutsInAName

[WutsInAName]

I also love how Mr. Erikson's comment can be paraphrased as:

 

"Well duh of course we will have duel spec at some point since the other guys do, but yea umm they dont do AC so we're not sure how to copy that one"

 

 

Thats almost as good as the Lead Combat Designer posting in a thread about Cunning gear with shield stats that it was good for pets! <- Thats right the lead combat designee has no clue on stats.

[TUXs]

No, playstyle is very much dependent on abilities.

 

The play style of an elemental shaman changed significantly just by altering one of their abilities: adding a glyph that allows casting lightning bolt on the move.

 

Scrappers and shadows play entirely differently, while sages and shadows share some similarities in playstyle due to shared abilities.

 

No, there are definitely some similarities in playstyle due to the fact that you use some of the same abilities.

 

 

Then name an RPG element that it destroys...

 

no it doesn't. The point of progression and building your character still exists. It's exactly the same.

 

the ability to change advance classes does not, in any way, prevent you from progressing your character. If anything, it offers new ways of progressing your character.

 

You obviously learned some more new abilities, just like you did when you went from level 49 to level 50.

 

Who says it has to be learned in the blink of an eye? Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

And really, even if you are talking about doing it in the blink of an eye, how is that any different than respeccing from a kinetic shadow to a dps spec?

 

Force transferred memories. Quasi-sci fi like the power soldiers.

 

From an in-universe perspective, switching from guardian to sentinel is no different than switching to ataru form. That gets learned in a blink of an eye as well: one level you don't know it at all, the next you do.

 

that's how a lot of rpg's work... even pen and paper ones.

 

Say: 3.5 edition D&D. One level you don't know how to power attack. The next, you pick the feat and can power attack.

 

BRILLIANTLY said! Thank you for arguing for this.

 

I am fully in favor of AC changes and dual specs. Heck, I'd even support dual specs being cross AC.

[DarthKhaos]

The current system already discourages making multiple characters for some people. Some people don't want to play through the same class quests and story to play a different advanced class.

But you don't have to play through the same class quests and story to play a different advance class. You can play its mirror.

[twinionx]

The ability to pick one of 3 skills every what? 10 levels or so really makes me feel like I am a specialist in something.

 

 

 

And this is where you're playing the game wrong. We all know the classes are mirrored. So You play a commando on one character and a Power Tech on another. You get to experience the different AC AND a different class story. Hell you even get to experience a whole bunch of different quests.

 

Me? I went the who shabang.

 

On Empire:

Power Tech

Sorcerer

Operative

Marauder

 

On Republic:

Commando

Shadow

Gunslinger

Guardian

 

That way I get to experience the game mechanic of each AC AND experience each Class Story. It's a win/win.

 

Guess what? I also went with the whole shebang. And I still support AC changing.

 

Players should be given the options to play how they want and have fun as they want.

 

Players who have fun = longer subcription = more player base = more fun for everyone.

 

If Bioware persist in their flawed design of no AC change, then one day a big portion of frustrated players will quit and then all that is left are just those who screamed ACs are different class, no respec for you!

[Nicain]

Looks like the vocal minority wins again.

 

Dual Spec isn't needed.

 

Maybe we should introduce instant geared 50s now for you too.

 

If Dual spec isn't added, it doesn't hurt or help the game as anyone playing now will continue to play even if dual spec isn't added. if dual spec is added, it will actually turn off people who like to have distinct classes.

 

In six months this game is going to start to come apart at the seams, not because of how the game is, the game is fine, it's all these crawling changes that don't need to be made, are eventually going to turn even the people that want them away from the game.

 

If something like Dual spec will make or break how you feel about a game, then you probably won't last long in the game and you're just soiling it for everyone who would like to be long term player.

 

Dual spec is for ADD people who like bubbles.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Notannos
rude

[GellonSW]

Guess what? I also went with the whole shebang. And I still support AC changing.

 

Players should be given the options to play how they want and have fun as they want.

 

Players who have fun = longer subcription = more player base = more fun for everyone.

 

If Bioware persist in their flawed design of no AC change, then one day a big portion of frustrated players will quit and then all that is left are just those who screamed ACs are different class, no respec for you!

 

LOL you are part of the minority. People are clamoring for multiple tree specs, not multiple AC options. We might as well just forego the semantics and completely scrap the idea of having classes in the first place. One class, Republic Hero and the Imperial Hero with Tank, Heal, DPS trees.

Edited February 21, 2012 by GellonSW