Why Ranged Classes Dominate This Game and Why It needs a fix

[Zlashie]

If you think this thread is about nerfing ranged then you are at the wrong thread. this is about CC Limits.

 

TL;DR

I did not read the entire OP, sorry. But from what I skimmed it looked like he was saying that range has an advantage because root ignores resolve while other forms of CC do not. And ranged classes can still perform their jobs at range.

 

If that is the case, I agree as a sage. I am surprised that root is not part of the resolve system and am also surprised that certain snare effects can stack to create a 100% snare. I think it would be at least fair to make it so that someone on a full resolve bar would be immune to root and make it so snare effects cannot stack. Even if roots and snares did not give resolve points, at least melees would have a time when they are immune.

 

The entire resolve system needs work but I agree that in this case, melee got the short end of the stick.

 

 

Hello people.

 

If you are going to comment please know that I am objective. If you think I missed anything comment in a FRIENDLY WAY. Please have the courtesy to create a respectful reply.

 

NOTE: Please read the solution to the listed problem before you comment. Thank you

 

To make sure this doesnt become a subjective opinionated thread I will personally say: Im going to go through this step by step by doing scientific study with an objective mind: I myself pvp actively with both melee and ranged classes.

 

Problem

Melee classes feel ranged classes are "overpowered" in many situations due to various abilities.

 

What I will do

Through analyzing and study I will find and discuss whether ranged classes really are favoured and what makes them seem so. In addition I will try and find a solution to the problem.

 

Main Subject: Incapeable of attacking - CC

In many games, CC has been an utility both in PvE and PvP used to control situations. For Ranged classes this can bee all from keeping melee away, stopping targets from running, kiting etc. For melee classes this means keeping the target close and in control.

 

CC really is an important part of RPGs, but why is it such a huge problem in SWTOR? First lets list the 5 main kind of CC in this game.

 

• Stun
  
• Root
  
• Knockback
  
• Slow
  
• Breakable CCs
  

 

Now in older MMORPGs such as World Of warcraft, these things have excisted as well. So what makes SWTOR different?

 

Stun Limits

This was introduced by Bioware in order to counter games were you are stunned practically 90% of the time. It is not fun looking at your character not being able to do anything besides watching yourself slowly getting killed.

 

So lets look at the top list. First lets list what kind of CCs this stun limit affects.

 

• Stun
  
• Breakable CC
  

 

Thats it. If you reach the stunlimit you can still be rooted, slowed and knockedback.

Now lets look at the following scenario as a Ranged Dps:

My job is to DPS. I need to make sure that targets stay away. Without slow/roots, I cant keep melee dps away from me. Without Knockback I cant push them off. That is why I have these utilities.

 

And as a melee dps:

My job is to DPS. I need to make sure I am close to my target in order to deal damage. Without Root/Slow/Stun I will not be able to reach my target. That is why I have these abilities.

 

So. that seems fair enough. So where is the problem?

The Problem

Due to the fact that in any situation were a melee and a ranged class fights eachother, the only CC which affects LIMITS is STUN. This means that the ranged class now has an upper hand towards melee classes and gives melee classes a problem.

 

But is this true?

 

Melee Vs Ranged

Ok, so we have adressed the issue with only having Stun CC Limits. So lets discuss if this really is a problem.

 

Ask yourself:

 

- How will a melee counter a 100% slow?

- How will a melee counter a root?

 

The answer is Stun. You incapazitate your target for a short moment so you can get back in the fight. Now here is the problem: stun limits.

If the target has reached the stunlimits, a melee is at most cases ****ed and will need to retreat in order to regain the ability to get back in the fight. However due to Knockback, Slow and root this becomes next to impossible.

 

The Solution

So how do we fix this? How can we bring melee back into the fight? its simple.

 

Add the following:

- Root Limit bar

- Slow Limit bar

- Knockback Limit bar

Why do we want this? Because a melee being rooted/knocked back/slowed is as crucial for them as it is for a ranged to be stunned.

 

Lets look at the facts: Can Attack, Can momentarely not attack, Cannot Attack

 

When a melee is Stunned: Cannot Attack

When a melee is Rooted: Cannot Attack

When a melee is knockedback: Cannot Attack until he reaches his target again.

When a melee is Slowed: Cannot Attack before he reaches target again.

 

When a Ranged class is Stunned: Cannot Attack

When a Ranged class is Rooted: Can Attack

When a Ranged class is Knockedback: Momentarely unable to attack

when a Ranged class is Slowed: Can Attack

 

As you see this becomes a huge problem for melee because the only true counter melee has is Stuns but unfortunately this is the only current CC that affects a limit.

 

As for the ranged, he doesnt have to worry too much because he does not have these issues. He can be slowed, rooted and knocked back as much as you want it will not cause the same major impacts as it will for a melee dps.

 

Why people feel this game values ranged classes more

Consider a circle. Now consider 30 small rings which are split by 1meter radius. Consider your target in the middle of this circle.

 

A melee can hit his target in 4/30 of the circles with the main abilities. He needs to use his utility in order to stay in the fight.

A Ranged can hit his target in 30/30 of the circles with the main abilities.

 

this gives the ranged a 26/30 or a 86.666% Damage Advantage to his target.

Normally other games have countered this by making melee classes hit much harder so that in a timezone of t, the amount of damage x will equal the amount of damage received f(x) so that the game itself becomes more of a skillbased trade than a melee trying to reach ranged classes.

 

An easy example of this is to cut a fight into 10 frames.

Take this example with a grain of salt as it is a fictional example and never the reality.

Following scenario should be given for two targets with equal gear and skill for the sake of the study.

 

1 frame: a melee hits a ranged

2 frame: a ranged stuns melee

3 frame: a ranged hits a melee

4 frame: a melee stun ranged

5 frame: a melee hits a ranged

6 frame: a ranged knocks and slows a melee

7 frame: a ranged hits a melee trying to reach target

8 frame: a ranged hits a melee trying to reach target

9 frame: a melee hits a ranged / a ranged hits a melee

10 frame: 1 of the Targets die

 

The melee hits 3 times

The ranged hits 4 times

 

This means that the overall damage output between the ranged and melee should be the same so that the melee still reaches the same amount of overall damage despite his lack of damageframes (4/30).

 

Why The Limits to Root/Knockback/Slow will fix the problem

The biggest problem for a melee is constantly being slowed, rooted and knockedback in comparison to having a huge stunlimitation towards his targets. Giving limits to the listed CCs will get Melee back in the fight and will give melee an equal chance to fight as a ranged.

 

Comment, Debate and Discuss!

 

-Z

 

EDIT: I did NOT bring up LOS because this thread is about the CCs, both Melee and Ranged can be kited by LOS and therefor any difference between a ranged and a melee becomes a value of +0. And as a mathematical rule you can leave out values of +0 from an equation as they have no value to the solution.

 

Additional Notes

The Class Sage/Sorc has been listed as overpowered in many cases. Based on the study above I believe the reason is a combination of Stun, Sprint, Root, Slow, Bubble and knockback.

 

Because there are no limits / diminishing returns to root, slow and knockback and because a sage/sorc can always bubble when the melee actually does get in range, it becomes little to impossible for a melee class to get this class down.

 

I think adding diminishing returns (CC Limits) to roots, slows and knockbacks will fix the above issue.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Zlashie

[jheise]

One statement....L O S makes them beyond worthless and has no cooldown. Play them smarter. Wait behind LoS until cooldowns are back up etc. If you are fighting one with all cooldowns up and you have 0 cooldowns up..well..That's the nature of MMOs to lose.

 

Edit: I'm a melee DPS with no Force Charge or a healer in WZs.

Edited February 10, 2012 by jheise

[BobaFurz]

L O S counts aswell for melee, never met players who did LOS you so you cant charge.

[Acyu]

no offense, but that is how melee vs. range is in every single game.

[jheise]

IF you are being LoSed as melee, no one can help you.

[JillAthena]

Meh. Makes it all the more awesome when you reach that pesky ranged and smash his face in anyways. There are also plenty of line of sight tactics you can use to draw them in to you.

 

Risking being called a troll.... Learn to play????

[Kjetl]

Your analyses ignores the other major form of CC -- charge / gap closers.

[MiaRB]

i dont think ranged classes donimate as much as people claim. just people roll melee characters but instead of learning how to play them, they get pasted by some ranged classes and give up and turn into forum pvpers.

 

im not the best pvper in the world and i dont see or have a problem vs ranged classes, so if i can handle it then anyone should be able to. truth is, a well played melee class gives me more problems than any of the ranged classes.

[BobaFurz]

IF you are being LoSed as melee, no one can help you.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about. There are upper columns in Huttball where people can just hide behind and there is no chance to charge them if they stay there.

Edited February 10, 2012 by BobaFurz

[maradigamer]

From what I've seen so far, if you solo, ranged is the way to go. But two or three melee classes working together blow people up. They're an amazing force to be reckoned with and two or three ranged classes working together do not equal them.

[MiaRB]

You have no idea what you are talking about. There are upper columns in Huttball where people can just hide behind and have no chance to charge them if they stay there.

 

its a team game. that is why you should have people on your team preventing them from camping out in their fav sniping spots. you yourself know they are up there since you are complaining about it, so take it upon yourself to get up there and take them out.

[AngryBuddhist]

Are Inquisitors and Consulars all ranged? Cause that's all I see in the WZ's.

[BobaFurz]

The problem with this subject is that a lot of people probably answering who dont play melee classes at all, are not playing certain melee classes of them since they are different (stealth classes), did play such classes only for some lvl. And such people who actually play these classes have a different expirience in, lvl difference, group pvp, with or without support, good or better players and so on....there will be a lot of talks and I still bet that most of them probably never played a pure melee (not stealth class) for longer. Edited February 10, 2012 by BobaFurz

[sithgrizley]

From what I've seen so far, if you solo, ranged is the way to go. But two or three melee classes working together blow people up. They're an amazing force to be reckoned with and two or three ranged classes working together do not equal them.

 

You've never seen a huddle of Sorcs cowering together then. They are a CC block that can easily destroy more than their number of melee.

 

For one thing a stack of 4 Sorcs has an Overload available every 5 seconds. No matter how awesome and skilled your melee is they are spending the majority of their time running back into melee. Then you throw in the bubbles, heals, cc, autosnares etc and melee can't touch them. The only thing that USED to work was have a similar number of ops all stealth pounce them and try to kill one before any of them used a knockback, which usually worked if the target didn't have the exploding bubble. Of course crying Sorcs got Ops nerfed.

[maradigamer]

You've never seen a huddle of Sorcs cowering together then. They are a CC block that can easily destroy more than their number of melee.

 

For one thing a stack of 4 Sorcs has an Overload available every 5 seconds. No matter how awesome and skilled your melee is they are spending the majority of their time running back into melee. Then you throw in the bubbles, heals, cc, autosnares etc and melee can't touch them. The only thing that USED to work was have a similar number of ops all stealth pounce them and try to kill one before any of them used a knockback, which usually worked if the target didn't have the exploding bubble. Of course crying Sorcs got Ops nerfed.

 

You're right, it's not that I haven't seen it, it's that I don't see it often anymore. Mostly when I see people working together lately it's melee, but two or three sorc's working together are nasty.

[sithgrizley]

Are Inquisitors and Consulars all ranged? Cause that's all I see in the WZ's.

 

One of their ACs is ranged, the Sorc/Sage. The other is melee Assassin/Shadow.

 

90% of what you see in the WZs are Sorcs/Sages.

[Jadeor]

Couldnt agree more with the OP.. the easy fix to this is giving snares a tad to the resolve bar aswell, not much, but a tad.. depending on the duration + effect (%) of the snare, it should add more, but nowhere near as much as a stun.. so annoying finally getting full resolve on my shadow, and ohh.. he will just throw a 4sec 100% root and run away and laugh at me... Edited February 10, 2012 by Jadeor

[sithgrizley]

You're right, it's not that I haven't seen it, it's that I don't see it often anymore. Mostly when I see people working together lately it's melee, but two or three sorc's working together are nasty.

 

The problem with that is that Sorcs CAN counterplay the melee zerg, they just usually don't have to.

 

With equivalent coordination and skill a Sorc mob is untouchable by either a balanced group or a mob of anything but... Sorcs.

[SWImara]

The only problem with melee in SWTOR is that people want to play with light sabers. Melee in this game is awesome compared to most games I've played (AoC anyone?) the issue is that in other games most people end up playing some other class rather than complaining on the forums. Wizards = kewl, so folks play them and melt face. Light sabers = kewl so folks play them and are like "why does no one stand next to me".

 

Seriously, melee pretty much always requires a more competent player, but almost always ends up rewarding once one figures out the ropes.

 

Step 1: Roll a Marauder

Step 2: Spend time figuring out what you're doing (10 mins - eternity, your results will vary)

Step 3: Melt face

 

Note: I play a Guardian and a Commando, Guardian pretty consistently gets more medals and has way more utility.

Edited February 10, 2012 by SWImara

[BobaFurz]

Step 1: Roll a Marauder

Step 2: Spend time figuring out what you're doing (10 mins - eternity, your results will vary)

Step 3: Melt face

Step 4: die before you melt faces since someone comes into the 30m range and fires at you

Step 5: you notice that ranged classes dps you down faster than you can down them yourself

 

This is at least the problem fo this class at lvl 30-40.

Edited February 10, 2012 by BobaFurz

[Zlashie]

I just like to point out that the thread I made is a list of mathematics and numbers. Numbers never lie

 

That being said, I made this thread because I was curious on why I found playing my ranged so much more relaxing and easy. And also I was curious on why so many people complained about SWTOR hating melee classes.

[Lazorous]

You have no idea what you are talking about. There are upper columns in Huttball where people can just hide behind and there is no chance to charge them if they stay there.

 

So we should balance range soley based on a warzone?

[BobaFurz]

So we should balance range soley based on a warzone?

 

I just did give a hint that LOS can be also a problem in certain situations for melees not only for ranged classes.

Edited February 10, 2012 by BobaFurz

[maradigamer]

The problem with that is that Sorcs CAN counterplay the melee zerg, they just usually don't have to.

 

With equivalent coordination and skill a Sorc mob is untouchable by either a balanced group or a mob of anything but... Sorcs.

 

Yep, you're right. I don't find sorcerers all that OP as individuals, but when they know how to work together, they have better synergy than any other class or combination of classes except maybe a tank and a healer in the right situations.

[jheise]

You have no idea what you are talking about. There are upper columns in Huttball where people can just hide behind and there is no chance to charge them if they stay there.

 

LOL? That means they aren't hitting you either...