Too Many People Whining about Having to Put in Effort

[alement]

Life isn't fair.

 

You're mixing two different ideologies buddy. Life =/= video games. Well maybe for some.

 

Here's the difference, since i have to spell it out - people say life isn't fair when it's something they can't control, like a pet or relative dying, or a friend winning the lottery.

 

This game is completely controllable. All the devs have to do is... you guessed it, make it fair. Fair video games = fun video games, which is why we play them in the first place - for entertainment.

Edited February 10, 2012 by alement

[EternalFinality]

That's called an RTS.

 

I'd love to hear your suggestions regarding specific changes to make the game more "skill oriented."

 

No offense, but this kind of post is next to useless.

 

Dota is not an RTS.

[EternalFinality]

Your mixing two different ideologies buddy. Life =/= video games. Well maybe for some.

 

Here's the difference, since i have to spell it out - people say life isn't fair when it's something they can't control, like a pet or relative dying, or a friend winning the lottery.

 

This game is completely controllable. All the devs have to do is... you guessed it, make it fair. Fair video games = fun video games, which is why we play them in the first place - for entertainment.

 

Can you imagine designing a board game that gave benefits to someone who had played it more times than the other players? Not just knowledge, but physical advantages in the game?

 

I start a chess game with an extra bishop because my ELA rating is 100 points higher than yours.

 

Can you imagine anyone wanting to play such a game?

[Sourceerror]

"PvP" that has gear that offers statistical advantages is not Player versus Player, it is Character versus Character and is basically a Raid with no lockout.

 

If you want to play actual PvP, you need to do it in a game like Guild Wars where the PvP and PvE are (correctly) separated into to completely separate subgames that have no crossover (other than your name and your class being the same).

 

If you want to defend Character versus Character because you enjoy rolling over people who haven't played as long as you, that's fine, but don't insult real PvPer us by calling what you do "skill" or "PvP".

 

I find it funny when people make up definitions.

 

A player controls the characters, therefore it's player versus player. Stop living in a fantasy world where you can re-define terms.

[rsomazzi]

Here's the way I see it- there's too many people wanting instant gratification from a genre of game designed to reward "e-work" put into your character.

 

This game is brand new, there WILL be bugs- stop complaining. Enough of the "OMG GAME BREAKING BUG" posts.... just submit a report and move on.

 

People are running around PvPing in Battlemaster gear and you're ticked that you can instantly have the best gear? Stop whining.

 

You aren't SUPPOSED to be able to hit 50 and within a day have full Battlemaster. Regardless of what people did before, using whatever means or "glitches" to do it, it just doesn't matter. If anything, it gives you a worthy challenge to better your "e-self." Gear is tiered for a reason. Yeah, you've got to start off with the crappy PvP gear- so what?

 

To be honest I feel that it's already too easy to get PvP gear. I shouldn't be able to do a couple dailies and get a new piece of gear, but I come from playing MMOs where there really isn't such a thing as "casual play."

 

An example of the complaints I'm referring to- On my server (and probably most) people go into Ilum for their daily, and leave. I see all this complaining about how "hard" and time consuming the daily is (armament collection), but it's designed to keep people in Ilum to PvP. The longer you are there, the longer the opposing faction is there, the more likely PvP is to break out. More PvP = more fun.

 

Stop complaining and enjoy the game. This launch has gone off very smoothly and Bioware has taken problems and handled them without breaking stride. Everyone expects a polished game off the bat, but it simply will take time to work out the kinks. HELP BIOWARE HELP YOU! Fill out bug reports, make CONSTRUCTIVE and SPECIFIC forum posts, and just enjoy yourself. Who cares if your class isn't 'balanced?' MMOs are very fluid, classes will go from being "OP" to crap, it's just part of the development cycle.

 

To Bioware: Please don't listen to the kids and make drastic changes at the behest of some forum whiners. Make reasonable and thoughtful decisions for the betterment of the game itself. I trust you all! This game has so much potential, provided that new content is released in a timely manner I see no reason why this game won't succeed. Good job so far!

 

Have fun all!

 

Your post, ironically, whines to a greater extent than the people you are actually whining ABOUT. People aren't expecting BANG 50 "WHERE MAH BM GEAR?", they are genuinely not having fun in the face of gross imbalances, in all their forms.

 

They have an expectation that a game be polished enough, yes, both during and post leveling, that is justifies PAYING for it.

 

You spend so much of your post whining like a kid about the whiners, that you come off as the biggest whiner of all.

[Hellapain]

It is not work. It is called playing the game. You are supposed to be paying to have fun, not paying to grind just so you get the gear you want. People complaining that they don't have gear is stupid because having the gear does not make the game any more fun. RPGS are about the journey. Sit back, enjoy the game for all the cool stuff it has to offer, and stop worrying that someone else has better gear.

 

I am not geared, I enjoy this game. I will get better gear in time, but I am not playing specifically to get better gear.

 

This ^

 

The OP and those that think the same way, that MMOs should be 'eWork', are afflicted with a mental illness involving pixel obsession.

 

The objective of an MMO game is to provide entertainment. Entertainment is supposed to be fun and not work.

 

The focus shouldn't be on I have to 'work' or 'earn' virtual items or titles but rather having fun while getting them. Grinds are by definition not fun.

[TimothyJForde]

I find it funny when people make up definitions.

 

A player controls the characters, therefore it's player versus player. Stop living in a fantasy world where you can re-define terms.

 

I think his pointing out that the characters and there gear matter too much compared to the people controlling them.

Right now it's player+gear V player+gear not player v player

[Sourceerror]

This ^

 

The OP and those that think the same way, that MMOs should be 'eWork', are afflicted with a mental illness involving pixel obsession.

 

The objective of an MMO game is to provide entertainment. Entertainment is supposed to be fun and not work.

 

The focus shouldn't be on I have to 'work' or 'earn' virtual items or titles but rather having fun while getting them. Grinds are by definition not fun.

 

Since when has there been any MMO designed around this ideal?

[Hellapain]

Since when has there been any MMO designed around this ideal?

 

The first graphical MMO ever was designed around this ideal. It was called Ultima Online. Before that we had MUDs which were not even graphical but rather text based driven so pixel obsession wasn't even possible.

 

It wasn't until EQ that the sickness of level grinds and obsessing about elite virtual gear was introduced into the genre.

 

Horrid gear and level grinds involving eWork are only necessary in an MMORPG to mask a gameplay environment that is not entertaining or fun.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Hellapain

[Darth_Philar]

I think his pointing out that the characters and there gear matter too much compared to the people controlling them.

Right now it's player+gear V player+gear not player v player

 

Correct. In true PvP, your avatar reflects your skills. In PvE, your avatar simply obeys your commands and using his own skills attempts to succeed..

 

Obviously, pure PvP is only available in real life, but the goal of online PvP should be to emulate pure PvP as much as possible. Therefore, having gear/stats that create a statistical advantage as opposed to a skill advantage is making the "competitive" metagame a PvE derivative, not a PvP one.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Darth_Philar

[Dgall]

Your post, ironically, whines to a greater extent than the people you are actually whining ABOUT. People aren't expecting BANG 50 "WHERE MAH BM GEAR?", they are genuinely not having fun in the face of gross imbalances, in all their forms.

 

They have an expectation that a game be polished enough, yes, both during and post leveling, that is justifies PAYING for it.

 

You spend so much of your post whining like a kid about the whiners, that you come off as the biggest whiner of all.

 

A) I would agree with you if I've started more than one thread.

 

B) I feel like I'm getting $15/mo worth of entertainment. No one is forcing people to pay, they are free to go at any time.

 

C) I take issue with people "not having fun" in PvP because they don't have the best of the best gear. That was one of the points of my post. It's mind blowing that not having the best gear is considered a "gross imbalance."

[rsomazzi]

So we just give everyone the best gear and say "have at it?" I don't get the mentality that expects things in an MMO to just be given to you. Since there's only so much "skill' involved, players must be rewarded via time played- as with any genre.

 

What do you think a rank system in a game really is? It's not a measure of "skill," simply time played.

 

Welcome to the modern day gamer grind.

 

You're not thinking much outside the box. A lot of players, myself included, have played MMOs for many years and have a sense for what works and what doesn't.

 

Example: Pre-xpac DAOC. This was a game that focused on end game PvP, open realm, between 3 factions. Everyone had a backyard with keeps that protected territory and relics. Factions invaded one another's "backyards" to steal their relics, and to steal ownership of lower level keeps and objectives.

 

The people who leveled did work, on average, for months to level. They also grinded crafting because THAT WAS THE ONLY WAY TO GET THE BEST GEAR. If you knew an armorcrafter and weaponcrafter, you had the best gear. So the grind was shifted onto other areas, but what made this example better than SWTOR is the gear was not the endgame itself, but the wars, fighting, and objectives that came after.

 

IT WAS THE ACTIVITIES POST LEVELING that was the defining factor. Mythic made open realm combat the focus, not GEAR. This kept fighting (on a gear level) more or less equal on all 3 factions, and allowed people to focus on the PvP objectives and what they were doing in enemy territory or defense of their own, NOT GRINDING WARZONES.

 

See the difference here? DAOC is over 12 Years old and had a BETTER PvP system, FAR better than SWTOR today. Then, of course, they ruined it by implementing gear grinding in the form of artifacts. But that is another story...

[mordredz]

I Just can't Get Past the Title...

 

Cause your one of them? k...

 

OP +1 way to many whiners...

[rsomazzi]

Cause your one of them? k...

 

OP +1 way to many whiners...

 

hehe, nice

[Sevvy]

You need to look up the meaning of the word competative.

 

I lol'd.

 

 

It takes effort to get better at your class, get better gear, learn how to PvP effectively in a group situation, etc.

 

If people don't want to do that, that's on them. I hope they enjoy having my Thermal Detonators shoved up their asses while I Railshot them in the face. /shrug

[myzterion]

So I'm hit 50 last week (JKG). I've been running Illum/Bel dailies for commendations and have added those to my oranges. I've been out to Illum PVP zone twice now - once people were just trading kills (not a fan) and the other was a group of us trying to get some kills outnumbered against the imps. It does not seem like I'm going to be able to get any gear very quickly from the open world pvp.

 

Are the instanced pvp matches more conducive to earning the currency I'll need to get better pvp gear?

 

I realize now I should have done pvp more while leveling but I was used to LOTRO, level to cap then gear/pvp philosophy.

 

What is the progression of gear that I should be looking for (champ/bm/??)? There has to be a way to get some competitive gear for a fresh 50, even if it is going to be painful.

[Ruuprect]

no one worked for their gear, sorry to inform you but farming level 10s in a full premade is not work, exploiting illum for tens of thousands of valor in one night is not work, fighting other pvpers with centurion level gear was not work

 

the only people puting in work right now are the fresh 50s who werent around for all the exploiting, and are fighting the BM geared who had it easy mode just because they exploited and abused the game because of biowares stupid decisions

 

That Ilum exploit was not that big of a deal. I was in Ilum last night for 2 hours in a huge brawl with the imps. I got over 30k+ valor in those 2 hours.

[EternalFinality]

Are the instanced pvp matches more conducive to earning the currency I'll need to get better pvp gear?

 

Um...yes?

[SnakeAes]

You're exactly right. Which is why people are mad. Some people got their full Battlemaster set by the time they were Valor 61, while others put in a lot of effort (as your title suggests) and have nothing.

 

See, let me put it to you this way. You work 40 hours. I roll a one hundred sided dice, and if it falls on 25 or below, I'll pay you for your work. If it falls on 26 or above, you don't get paid.

 

Your co worker works 20 hours, and has the same system. He rolls a 22 and gets paid, you roll a 44 and do not. He walks away with a check, while you are broke.

 

Sound fair?

 

I would actually be okay with this system, considering that the law of averages dictates that eventually I have to get paid, and that the system is the same for everyone.

 

Considering this is essentially how it is in the game now, I don't see why people have issues with it. Some people get lucky. How is it different from rolling on loot? At the end of a Flashpoint of Operation, everyone has earned the loot, but only one person gets it. But if you run the flashpoint enough times you'll get what you're looking for eventually.

 

Same with PvP gear.

 

And, to emphasize that point, people who enjoy PvP for what it is, don't really care. I had as much fun PvPing at level 10 as I do now. I don't care if I stomped in a match, I just find it enjoyable. When the gear comes I know it'll just get better.

Edited February 10, 2012 by SnakeAes

[Calei]

Here's the way I see it- there's too many people wanting instant gratification from a genre of game designed to reward "e-work" put into your character.

 

This game is brand new, there WILL be bugs- stop complaining. Enough of the "OMG GAME BREAKING BUG" posts.... just submit a report and move on.

 

People are running around PvPing in Battlemaster gear and you're ticked that you can instantly have the best gear? Stop whining.

 

You aren't SUPPOSED to be able to hit 50 and within a day have full Battlemaster. Regardless of what people did before, using whatever means or "glitches" to do it, it just doesn't matter. If anything, it gives you a worthy challenge to better your "e-self." Gear is tiered for a reason. Yeah, you've got to start off with the crappy PvP gear- so what?

 

To be honest I feel that it's already too easy to get PvP gear. I shouldn't be able to do a couple dailies and get a new piece of gear, but I come from playing MMOs where there really isn't such a thing as "casual play."

 

An example of the complaints I'm referring to- On my server (and probably most) people go into Ilum for their daily, and leave. I see all this complaining about how "hard" and time consuming the daily is (armament collection), but it's designed to keep people in Ilum to PvP. The longer you are there, the longer the opposing faction is there, the more likely PvP is to break out. More PvP = more fun.

 

Stop complaining and enjoy the game. This launch has gone off very smoothly and Bioware has taken problems and handled them without breaking stride. Everyone expects a polished game off the bat, but it simply will take time to work out the kinks. HELP BIOWARE HELP YOU! Fill out bug reports, make CONSTRUCTIVE and SPECIFIC forum posts, and just enjoy yourself. Who cares if your class isn't 'balanced?' MMOs are very fluid, classes will go from being "OP" to crap, it's just part of the development cycle.

 

To Bioware: Please don't listen to the kids and make drastic changes at the behest of some forum whiners. Make reasonable and thoughtful decisions for the betterment of the game itself. I trust you all! This game has so much potential, provided that new content is released in a timely manner I see no reason why this game won't succeed. Good job so far!

 

Have fun all!

 

Do you work for a living?

 

If you do, do you enjoy e-working during your game time too? I'll just tell you right off the bat that most people don't. Your average gamer is 30+ years old, probably has a career and family to support. Coming home to e-work in a video game sounds to me like it would fit quite well with the unemployed and people with too much free time.

[Dgall]

Do you work for a living?

 

If you do, do you enjoy e-working during your game time too? I'll just tell you right off the bat that most people don't. Your average gamer is 30+ years old, probably has a career and family to support. Coming home to e-work in a video game sounds to me like it would fit quite well with the unemployed and people with too much free time.

 

Of course I do, and while the age of gamers overall might be 30+ in SWTOR it seems to be <25.

 

Personally, I have a blast doing dailies and PvPing and don't feel that it's "work" at all.

[GothicSaint]

A) I would agree with you if I've started more than one thread.

 

B) I feel like I'm getting $15/mo worth of entertainment. No one is forcing people to pay, they are free to go at any time.

 

C) I take issue with people "not having fun" in PvP because they don't have the best of the best gear. That was one of the points of my post. It's mind blowing that not having the best gear is considered a "gross imbalance."

 

A. What does how many threads you started have any relevance to his point?

 

 

B. Believe it or not some people don't feel like you, some others are NOT having fun or feel they are getting their monies worth.

 

C. Again ! you assume you know what everyone thinks and you try to simplify it with degrading terms because you are angry that someone does not like an aspect of the game.

 

1. Your condescending grandstanding only makes you look just like the people who you try so hard to insult. Whats does that make you?

 

2. This thread is just pointless angry conjecture that only inflames people into making negative responses. It has nothing to add as far as constructive criticism or praise.

Edited February 10, 2012 by GothicSaint

[AmandaBynes]

A. What does how many threads you started have any relevance to his point?

 

 

B. Believe it or not some people don't feel like you, some others are NOT having fun or feel they are getting their monies worth.

 

C. Again ! you assume you know what everyone thinks and you try to simplify it with degrading terms because you are angry that someone does not like an aspect of the game.

 

1. Your condescending grandstanding only makes you look just like the people who you try so hard to insult. Whats does that make you?

 

2. This thread is just pointless angry conjecture that only inflames people into making negative responses. It has nothing to add as far as constructive criticism or praise.

 

Your condescending grandstanding only makes you look just like the people who you try so hard to insult. Whats does that make you?

[Soultyr]

That's called an RTS.

 

I'd love to hear your suggestions regarding specific changes to make the game more "skill oriented."

 

No offense, but this kind of post is next to useless.

 

 

I got an idea.

 

2 brackets geared and ungeared.

ilum stays the same.

geared bracket- lvl 50

ungeared bracket -

 

For the ungeared bracket all levels. No gear related stats boost only what your character naturally has. Hence even a lvl 10 will be competitive with bolster.

[Falcatta]

no one worked for their gear, sorry to inform you but farming level 10s in a full premade is not work, exploiting illum for tens of thousands of valor in one night is not work, fighting other pvpers with centurion level gear was not work

 

the only people puting in work right now are the fresh 50s who werent around for all the exploiting, and are fighting the BM geared who had it easy mode just because they exploited and abused the game because of biowares stupid decisions

 

 

I really am sick of hearing this. I'm a Battlemaster sentinel and had to fight the premades and lose alot to grind out bags. I didn't exploit Ilum, I don't kill trade I organize folks in the morning for actual fighting ops groups to get the daily and weekly done.

 

Don't paint everyone with a broad brush, not all of us had it easy mode and earned our gear through alot of PITA work.