Every nerf so far has only made Sorcs stronger.

[Datku]

Except any of the melee classes (equally geared OFC) well played will wreck a Sage/Sorc hands down.

 

Stop blowing all your CD's to drop the soap bubble that is force shield/static barrier, save your CC breaker till you get your resolve up, and don't use your gap closers/CC to initiate- save them until the Sage/Sorc starts to kite you.

 

A balance/madness spec has FOUR abilities that can cause worthwhile damage on the run, two of which are DoTs, and the other two on 5+s cooldowns. Their knockback has the slowest animation in the game, so if you see it start to go just cast yours and watch the sorc/sage get knocked on the ground with their own knockback on CD.

 

As long as you don't let them sit in the back and spam TKT/FL or Forcequake/lightening strike all day they aren't gonna hurt that much. Tanky DPS beats caster 1on1 everytime. Basic strategy is basic.

 

 

This. I can't count the number of times I go completely uncontested in Hutt ball. I once stood in a corner on the upper grind for a good 5+ minutes killing people right and left below me and never had a single person target me or even try to run me from my spot. There are some classes as a sorc/sage that you can take down fairly easily. And then there are ones that you don't even mess with.

 

A good dps warrior will rip me to pieces. A crappy one I will rip to pieces. A good tanking warrior isn't worth the time or trouble to kill. A poor one is easy to pick apart.

 

A good agent/smuggler can drop me pretty quickly. A bad agent/smuggler is almost painfully easy to take out.

 

A healing sorc/sage if I don't have my cooldowns up to burst dmg they are not worth my time to try and kill even with interrupts and stuns. I have to burst dps them down with huge hits and then interupt/stun them at low health to finish them off. Otherwise I can just sit there wasting time and power while they heal and delay me.

 

BH/Trooper healers same story. Next to impossible to take out unless I get some lucky procs/crits full cool downs and a lot of luck. DPS and even tank versions of Troopers and BH's are generally a very long and very tough fight. Tank versions are not worth the time to burn down unless they just completely ignore me. If they engage me then it unless I get very, very lucky running away from them I am dead.

 

DPS BH/Troopers are tough. Lots of health to burn through, shields, high dmg you name it. Seems that once a dps BH locks onto you it doesn't matter if you los, sprint from one side of the map to the other through the pits they will still hit you with their rockets.

 

I go into a hutt ball and do say 250k dmg. Thinking to myself yea I didn't do to bad. Then I see the 3 DPS BH's with 280-340k dmg topping the dmg, yet QQer's claim sorcs always top dmg. If you want them to look at sorcs for high dmg then BH's and Troopers deserve a look as well. Often if its not a sorc in top dps its always a BH but I have even seen warriors and agents in top over sorcs as well.

 

Again like I said in the beginning. When I end up with high dmg in a match its often because I tend to be ignored for long segments of time to just stand in one place casting force lighting uncontested or molested despite how obvious it is where I am at.

 

Don't try to balance the game for the stupid players.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Datku

[The_Starks]

Oh, sorcs, posting that they are not OP. That is a shocking position to take. Very shocking.

 

PUN INTENDED

[XOrionX]

That's because 90% of the people that play this game are bad and don't know how to interrupt.

 

I'm talking about balance around people who are actually competent at PvP.

 

You can't interrupt a sorc/sage when they have a shield up. At least I have never been able to.

 

And considering that shield is on such a short CD and only applies a 20 second debuff on the person it is applied to, a sorc/sage can sit in his/her shield for most of the match.

 

EDIT: That being said, I don't think a nerf is required for Sorcs/Sages. I would rather see them focusing on buffing for balance rather than nerfing for balance.

Edited February 10, 2012 by XOrionX

[Jamuro]

I agreed with almost all of your points with exception to the above.

 

Sorcs/Sages constantly top the charts for heals in PvP.

 

Well that's true in warzones, where it doesn't matter how often you die.

Sorc's healing is a constant fight against your force bar.

 

I am not fully healer specced so this probably is worse for me than for others but if i start healing i manage to run out of force in less than a minute. Which doesn't matter of course in a wz because by then about 3-4 Guys saw me healing and switched to me ...i die and yaiii full force again^^

 

 

Same goes for dps charts ... if it wasn't for the ability to be back in the fight in less than 10 sec i could never use the build i have (and most hybrid dps specs have the same issue)

 

I would be utterly useless after a minute or would have to significantly reduce my dmg output, which i realy don't need to because i can always just suicide rush into the mass of enemies or into a fire trap and so on.

 

The warzone charts are nearly completly useless for determinating the performance of a class. It only shows which class can farm best, without giving a thought about resource management.

 

 

Edit:

 

Just to add i know that it still is an issue, since warzones make up about 99% of the pvp atm (which sucks)

Edited February 10, 2012 by Jamuro

[Inarai]

That's because 90% of the people that play this game are bad and don't know how to interrupt.

 

I'm talking about balance around people who are actually competent at PvP.

 

Which, incidentally, is one of the best things about using real data as opposed to whining.

 

Plus, if their telemetry is detailed enough, they could actually reenact the problem situations as a form of automated testing, as well as the non-problem ones just to make sure everything's still working right.

[trotsky_tor]

...

 

Man you've set that up for me: Sorcerers.

 

Also, for that matter: Tracer Missile Spam.

 

And that's just off the top of my head - and without getting into classes people erroneously think need serious buffs (see: Sentinels).

 

People were way too busy complaining about Ops to complain about anything else. We shall see what comes in the next round of "balancing".

 

Also, "Shanghai-La" made me laugh my *** off...

[Inarai]

You can't interrupt a sorc/sage when they have a shield up. At least I have never been able to.

 

And considering that shield is on such a short CD and only applies a 20 second debuff on the person it is applied to, a sorc/sage can sit in his/her shield for most of the match.

 

It's not actually that large of a buffer, though - and once you break through it, they're like paper.

[MercArcher]

You can't interrupt a sorc/sage when they have a shield up. At least I have never been able to.

 

And considering that shield is on such a short CD and only applies a 20 second debuff on the person it is applied to, a sorc/sage can sit in his/her shield for most of the match.

 

Stun, knock down, knock back, pull

 

There's more ways to interrupt than an actual interrupt.

[PibbyPib]

When you look at the popularity of the different classes, I still can't believe they opened with an Operative/Scoundrel nerf instead of a Sorceror/Sage nerf.

 

Operative and Scoundrels were by far the least-played, and Sages/Sorcerors are everwhere. That alone kind of tells you who is overpowered and who isn't.

[Goretzu]

I suppose I can't be certain. But all signs point to it being an industry first here. And considering that the guys biggest on metrics aren't the old Mythic devs, I don't expect it was something they kept in their toolbox back then.

 

So therefore you don't know at all (we got there in the end).

 

So therefore basically all you are coming out with is opinion based upon baseless speculation, as opposed to what has been done/happened before.

 

If you want to base your opinion on baseless speculation going against what has been done before, that is completely up to you, but it's not where the smart money would go (nor Yoda's).

 

So as I said we'll have to wait and see.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Goretzu

[XOrionX]

It's not actually that large of a buffer, though - and once you break through it, they're like paper.

 

Yah. I added an edit after I posted that.

 

I still don't think they need a nerf.

 

I think they should focus on buffing to balance classes rather than nerfing to balance classes. I wills ay it again, they killed operatives... They hit them too hard, and it is sad really.

[Inarai]

So therefore you don't know at all (we got there in the end).

 

So therefore basically all you are coming out with is opinion based upon baseless speculation, as opposed to what has been done/happened before.

 

If you want to base your opinion on baseless speculation going against what has been done before, that is completely up to you, but it's not where the smart money would go (nor Yoda's).

 

So as I said we'll have to wait and see.

 

You're really jumping too far when you say baseless.

 

As I said, all signs point to it being an industry first. And you clearly don't have any evidence to the contrary, or you would have presented it by now - your confidence in your position seems misplaced.

[Blotter]

The fact is, if you're fighting 1:1, and no other help for either yourself of your enemy, the trick is to not lose FORCE, heal yourself, and prey your DoT for Mind Crush sticks (and that you can get it off, and use Mind Snap as a last resort. Do not use your glowing stick at all because the lightsaber is the weakest weapon in the TOR universe!

 

The point is this: no class, even spec'd as a healer, should have as their only option of winning a 1:1 duel being the following type of game of attrition....

 

"heal myself heal myself heal myself bubble heal myself...hope he runs out of force/whatever soon...heal myself break incapacitation heal myself bubble heal myself....cross my fingers cuz he used another incapacitating talent while my breaker is on cooldown...heal myself overload heal myself heal myself bubble heal myself....oooh, looks like I can get off a DoT or two or maybe an incapacitation that he can break instantly....heal myself heal myself interrupt consumption heal myself bubble heal myself overload.....[2 minutes pass]....sweet! he's OOF!!! consumption consumption dmg dmg dmg win!!!" Granted, that is a little bit of an exaggeration, but this is currently pretty much what it is like playing as a corruption sorcerer when you get trapped 1:1 with almsot any other class....and you're lucky if you don't get mostly stun-locked and beaten to a pulp by your opponent...until his jackhole teamate swoops in to steal his killing blow.

 

And BTW, as an aside, healers are seriously screwed in PvP in terms of medals despite being arguably the most important dude on the team given the length of time it takes for the timed barrier to drop at the medcenters. 3-4 people or more stuck behind that barrier for 20 seconds often means athe difference in a match.

[XOrionX]

Stun, knock down, knock back, pull

 

There's more ways to interrupt than an actual interrupt.

 

Like I said, I have used those tactics vs a shielded caster before to no effect. In huttball they can walk right down the ramp with everyone blasting them with knockbacks and they don't budge.

[Palenen]

I have to agree. Too powerful and need to be nerfed. When the player pop is 80% of them, it makes you wonder.

[pinkfreudHC]

Where did people get the idea that Sorcs/Sages don't use Surge (And prefer Alacrity)?

 

Stat preference for DPS:

 

Willpower>Crit (until soft cap)>Surge (until soft cap)>Force Power/Power>Alacrity

 

At high enough gear levels we will have enough passive crit gain from Willpower that we will try to itemize with no crit, of course.

[Goretzu]

You're really jumping too far when you say baseless.

 

As I said, all signs point to it being an industry first. And you clearly don't have any evidence to the contrary, or you would have presented it by now - your confidence in your position seems misplaced.

 

No, I think I'm spot on, as do you otherwise you'd mention specfics of these mysterious "signs" (Seaweed blowing backward in the wind? The lesser spotted Gnu not seeing it's own shadow? ).

 

However just to be clear; if sorcs eventually get nerfed is Yoda right?

[XOrionX]

 

And BTW, as an aside, healers are seriously screwed in PvP in terms of medals despite being arguably the most important dude on the team given the length of time it takes for the timed barrier to drop at the medcenters. 3-4 people or more stuck behind that barrier for 20 seconds often means athe difference in a match.

 

 

 

This is no exxageration. Very true, and that is really sad.

[MercArcher]

When you look at the popularity of the different classes, I still can't believe they opened with an Operative/Scoundrel nerf instead of a Sorceror/Sage nerf.

 

Operative and Scoundrels were by far the least-played, and Sages/Sorcerors are everwhere. That alone kind of tells you who is overpowered and who isn't.

 

This is the kind of fallacy that runs rampant in the MMO community. You are wrong.

 

To prove this here is an example

 

WoW is by far the most-played MMO. That alone tells you it is the only MMO worth playing.

 

See what I did there.

Edited February 10, 2012 by MercArcher

[Inarai]

I think they should focus on buffing to balance classes rather than nerfing to balance classes.

 

That one depends on what needs balancing. There's issues with relative power, and then there's issues with absolute power. You can buff to bring classes in line if the issue is simply the way they compare to each other - IE, they're all within an acceptable range but there's differences still. However, if a class is TOO powerful, and thus outside that guidance range, they must be nerfed.

[trotsky_tor]

Like I said, I have used those tactics vs a shielded caster before to no effect. In huttball they can walk right down the ramp with everyone blasting them with knockbacks and they don't budge.

 

If their resolve is up/ticking, perhaps. Otherwise no.

[XOrionX]

I have to agree. Too powerful and need to be nerfed. When the player pop is 80% of them, it makes you wonder.

 

80%? I hope you are kidding.

[Blotter]

Like I said, I have used those tactics vs a shielded caster before to no effect. In huttball they can walk right down the ramp with everyone blasting them with knockbacks and they don't budge.

 

Their resolve probably flew right up to 100% since they get focus-fired so much.

[XOrionX]

If their resolve is up/ticking, perhaps. Otherwise no.

 

As a DPS player I hate that resolve bar. Not becasue it prevents excessive CC, but because it never seems to help me when my bar is full.

 

Anybody know why?

Edited February 10, 2012 by XOrionX

[Inarai]

No, I think I'm spot on, as do you otherwise you'd mention specfics of these mysterious "signs" (Seaweed blowing backward in the wind? The lesser spotted Gnu not seeing it's own shadow? ).

 

However just to be clear; if sorcs eventually get nerfed is Yoda right?

 

I'm talking about dev commentary and so on, primarily - a lot of which disappeared in the forum wipe. And it's absolutely with noting that the people that are biggest on metrics did not come from Mythic. IE, GZ's got tagged as the Master of Metrics by other devs.

 

If they'd used a metrics driven approach in WAR from the beginning, the WAR guys would have been pretty out front on that one too, but they never really were. Couple that with direct references as to it being part of what makes the game different from basically everything else...

 

Logic. It works. This is inductive logic, so I can only say that this is probably true, but you can't seem to assemble an effective counter-argument so frankly I'm okay with that.