swordandstone Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 OK, that's player harassment, which is a completely different topic then the one we are discussing on this thread. And I agree that people shouldn't intentionally attempt to disrupt others game play. Back to the point, people are not upset with SW:TOR because it lacks the content a 7 year old game has, they are upset because the features that are present do not make them happy. And I understand that, I can live with the current features but that is my own opinion as yours is your own as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiepMiep Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Op must realize bad game is bad, mkay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evertal Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Well, mostly because every mmo has a combat log. F2P cash shop MMOs have a combat log. Just because BW informed us that it doesn't have a combat log doesn't mean it shouldn't have one. If BW took out the AH at release that would make it ok because they told us they were going to right? Yes For example I played CoH at release and they neither had gear nor AH and I knew that but played the game for what it was. To me it just looks stupid and typical spoiled kids of today raging on a forum about features they never claimed would be in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nighthawked Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 If you release something that is a direct competitor to an existing product and expect to sell it for the same price you usually need to uphold at least the same standard. If I wanted to create a new word processor and directly compete with Microsoft Word or even free software like Open Office I would need it to include a minimum of basic features people expect a word processor released in 2012 has. Would you buy my word processor if I told you it’s a AAA fully featured word processor. Then after you buy it you notice there is no spell check, you can’t change text colour, can’t make lists or add picutes and there is 1 second lag after you press key to text appearing on screen. But of course I assure you all these features will be implemented in a later patch. Another satisfied customer! Sigh. These comparisons are not valid. How big is a software development crew? What do they consist of? Mostly programmers and maybe some graphic artists/video production. Compare this to a video game, and an MMO at that. Microsoft Word and video games cannot be compared. The game engine along is probably twice the size than Word's entire programming. You also have dozens of graphic artists, sound engineers, composers, video creators, programmers, and so on. Here is why the WoW, or any MMO that has been out for a while, cannot be compared to this game: Blizzard has been working CONTINUOUSLY on WoW for over a decade, while ToR has been in development for less than half of that.During that decade, Blizzard managed to get up to 12 million players. These 12 million players have been submitting bug reports, advice, criticism, suggestions, and whatever for a long time.ToR costed 300 million to make (I am using the highest estimate here), while the entire World of Warcraft project has costed Blizzard BILLIONS.Because WoW has 12 million subscribers, and probably has made a massive profit over the years, they are able to afford top notch customer service, more programmers, and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nighthawked Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Well, mostly because every mmo has a combat log. F2P cash shop MMOs have a combat log. Just because BW informed us that it doesn't have a combat log doesn't mean it shouldn't have one. If BW took out the AH at release that would make it ok because they told us they were going to right? And what does that say? There are those that say Feature X needs to be in this game or it will fail! What about the other "failed" MMOs that have all of these features? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipda Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Blizzard has had to rewrite the code and redesign their game mechanics how many times? I am sure they would have preferred to know back then what they know now. A lot less time they would have spent redoing stuff. The thing is BW already had a lot of mistakes and errors made by Blizzard (and other MMOs) right in front of them. They had the chance to get a lot of the copy paste systems correct the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgarr Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 If you release something that is a direct competitor to an existing product and expect to sell it for the same price you usually need to uphold at least the same standard. If I wanted to create a new word processor and directly compete with Microsoft Word or even free software like Open Office I would need it to include a minimum of basic features people expect a word processor released in 2012 has. Would you buy my word processor if I told you it’s a AAA fully featured word processor. Then after you buy it you notice there is no spell check, you can’t change text colour, can’t make lists or add picutes and there is 1 second lag after you press key to text appearing on screen. But of course I assure you all these features will be implemented in a later patch. Another satisfied customer! im still trying to figure out which game your talking about that released with all this content your crying about not having? every mmo always releases with basic content. its the nature of the genre. stuff gets added with patches and content updates. dont like it? oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swordandstone Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 Sigh. These comparisons are not valid. How big is a software development crew? What do they consist of? Mostly programmers and maybe some graphic artists/video production. Compare this to a video game, and an MMO at that. Microsoft Word and video games cannot be compared. The game engine along is probably twice the size than Word's entire programming. You also have dozens of graphic artists, sound engineers, composers, video creators, programmers, and so on. Here is why the WoW, or any MMO that has been out for a while, cannot be compared to this game: Blizzard has been working CONTINUOUSLY on WoW for over a decade, while ToR has been in development for less than half of that.During that decade, Blizzard managed to get up to 12 million players. These 12 million players have been submitting bug reports, advice, criticism, suggestions, and whatever for a long time.ToR costed 300 million to make (I am using the highest estimate here), while the entire World of Warcraft project has costed Blizzard BILLIONS.Because WoW has 12 million subscribers, and probably has made a massive profit over the years, they are able to afford top notch customer service, more programmers, and so on. Good post, sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprytxx Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 im still trying to figure out which game your talking about that released with all this content your crying about not having? every mmo always releases with basic content. its the nature of the genre. stuff gets added with patches and content updates. dont like it? oh well. Well Rift had a lot of BASIC features I kind of miss in TOR. Not saying they had everything at launch but didn't feel like I was really missing anything. Like.... UI you can change Target of Target Comabt log Being able to have more the 2 windows open at same time Bracket pvp with cross server I agree none are game greaking in any way. I am still enjoying TOR a lot. But I would have enjoyed it more if it had those from launch. Not going to rage quit over it. But I am just a bit disapointed they were not included from launch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KuusouRumba Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Yes, some things should've been implemented during it's development cycle towards launch but would you rather Bioware keep delaying the game for years in order to keep up with the competition? It's alot harder to implement these things to games like this than some people think. If Bioware kept delaying its release in order to address these things, it wouldn't stand a chance against its competition with the fact of lost interest over time due to numerous delays. Examples: Conan online, Warhammer Online, Lord of the Rings online. Both AoC and Warhammer failed because the producers rushed them out. Tortage was the only zone in AoC that had any polish and the upper areas (45+) were actually missing quests to take you to level cap. Warhammer... well.. the people who killed Warhammer are designing PvP for this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swordandstone Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 Both AoC and Warhammer failed because the producers rushed them out. Tortage was the only zone in AoC that had any polish and the upper areas (45+) were actually missing quests to take you to level cap. Warhammer... well.. the people who killed Warhammer are designing PvP for this game. If Mythic is designing the PVP, in my opinion, then it should be fine. Mythic designed the best PVP I've ever had a chance to be a part of. RvR in Dark Age of Camelot was PVP at its finest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KuusouRumba Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 If Mythic is designing the PVP, in my opinion, then it should be fine. Mythic designed the best PVP I've ever had a chance to be a part of. RvR in Dark Age of Camelot was PVP at its finest. The Mythic that designed DAOC is long gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprytxx Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Sigh. These comparisons are not valid. How big is a software development crew? What do they consist of? Mostly programmers and maybe some graphic artists/video production. Compare this to a video game, and an MMO at that. Microsoft Word and video games cannot be compared. The game engine along is probably twice the size than Word's entire programming. You also have dozens of graphic artists, sound engineers, composers, video creators, programmers, and so on. Here is why the WoW, or any MMO that has been out for a while, cannot be compared to this game: Blizzard has been working CONTINUOUSLY on WoW for over a decade, while ToR has been in development for less than half of that.During that decade, Blizzard managed to get up to 12 million players. These 12 million players have been submitting bug reports, advice, criticism, suggestions, and whatever for a long time.ToR costed 300 million to make (I am using the highest estimate here), while the entire World of Warcraft project has costed Blizzard BILLIONS.Because WoW has 12 million subscribers, and probably has made a massive profit over the years, they are able to afford top notch customer service, more programmers, and so on. Well they prob had at least twice the manpower, time and budget compared to Word. The point is if they intend to compete in a specific market they should make sure they can. Yes they can add features over time. All software works like that. But I am talking about the very basic features. Like a simple target of target window. Are you telling me adding something like that is so complex they just didn't have the time or budget to include it? Let's put it like this. Name me 1 AAA game that you pay sub for that did not have target of target at release. Edited February 10, 2012 by Sprytxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantragk Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Yes For example I played CoH at release and they neither had gear nor AH and I knew that but played the game for what it was. To me it just looks stupid and typical spoiled kids of today raging on a forum about features they never claimed would be in. Well, from this point I can say we're both going to have to agree to disagree. And I'm sure that we equally have people on each side of our argument. /shrug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkcerb Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Yes For example I played CoH at release and they neither had gear nor AH and I knew that but played the game for what it was. To me it just looks stupid and typical spoiled kids of today raging on a forum about features they never claimed would be in. Your right we shouldn't expect swtor to be an mmo...wait a minute that argument is completely illogical! I love how intensely people will defend the game and accept the bare bones mmo experience. Me I love the game but it needs improvement And I don't plan to stick my head in the sand and hope for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swordandstone Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 The Mythic that designed DAOC is long gone. True, but I did enjoy Warhammer's RVR. It somewhat reminded me of DAOC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleeha Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Rift - 50M budget at launch SWTOR - 300M budget at launch Rift took less time to develop, had more features and over all fewer problems with the game and had in-place at launch methods to monitor memory to help prevent cheating/hacks (yes, they happened but not to the extent they're problematic with TOR). Bottom line, a software project with a 300M budget shouldn't have the issues and problems that this title does. This is a direct reflection of how the project was managed and is continued to be managed. You can like the game all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that this game was shipped before it was actually ready to be shipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nighthawked Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Well they prob had at least twice the manpower, time and budget compared to Word. The point is if they intend to compete in a specific market they should make sure they can. Yes they can add features over time. All software works like that. But I am talking about the very basic features. Like a simple target of target window. Are you telling me adding something like that is so complex they just didn't have the time or budget to include it? Let's put it like this. Name me 1 AAA game that you pay sub for that did not have target of target at release. So? That does not mean this game NEEDS to have it or it will fail. All of this NEED talk is just ridiculous. I did not realize I was not able to play the game without these features. Games can do things differently you know, and even have different features. Even if they are in the same genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nighthawked Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Rift - 50M budget at launch SWTOR - 300M budget at launch Rift took less time to develop, had more features and over all fewer problems with the game and had in-place at launch methods to monitor memory to help prevent cheating/hacks (yes, they happened but not to the extent they're problematic with TOR). Bottom line, a software project with a 300M budget shouldn't have the issues and problems that this title does. This is a direct reflection of how the project was managed and is continued to be managed. You can like the game all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that this game was shipped before it was actually ready to be shipped. Do you know the financial break down? Do you know how much they had to pay Lucas to even use Star Wars in the title, and to build an entire story off of his work? A Star Wars game has to be the most expensive projects just due to the licensing fees alone. RIFT did not need to pay licensing fees and what not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishbrewed Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) People already understand this, but they are playing a game today and want a fun, polished game for the amount of money they are spending. Exactly, this excuse that because they just released we should just expect headaches is silly... They know there competition, either compete or ****. I'm not saying the game is bad but to have so many issues and so little endgame is unexcusable. They know what other games have that ppl like, why not release with those things why not have some foresight. You know what wow did, it made the genre better when released, it took what was good in EQ and made it better... Bioware did make questing somewhat bearable. But it's still just questing, nothing real grand or new in any other facet of the genre. If anything they reverted back to the annoying things in the genre, such as countless bugs, horrible professions, no economy, class designs that make u scratch your head. Inability to get anywhere without 10 load screens... They had years and multi million dollar budget, no excuses.... Edited February 10, 2012 by Irishbrewed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Arcane- Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 What has failed in swtor is the quality of the endgame, releasing 1 raid and 1 boss all of which ahs serious gamebreaking issues at launch... Did they even test the raids before launch of just throw some mobs into an instance as say all done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warjhinn Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 No. Not just no, an emphatic no. This is not 2004. This is 2012. This is a triple A release from a huge company where no expense was spared in making the game. Some of the missing features are inexcusable, and some of the bugs are ridiculous in nature (WZ's not giving victories for example) I'm not going to give them a pass because "it was just released" and neither should you. Lemme guess... You are the kind of person that see's a great new building project announced. You show up a couple days later and wonder why it's not as great as what was promised. Then you wait, they lay the foundation and you walk into the middle of it and get angry because this was clearly not what was promised. The foundation is layed. You still have to wait for the rest of the game to be built up. Nothing just shows up fully completed. Babies are not born 30 years old, in thier prime with a house a family and a great career. It either grows to fulfill expectations, or fails in the end. If you need that kind of instant gratification.. than "This is not the reality that you were looking for". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evertal Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Your right we shouldn't expect swtor to be an mmo...wait a minute that argument is completely illogical! I love how intensely people will defend the game and accept the bare bones mmo experience. Me I love the game but it needs improvement And I don't plan to stick my head in the sand and hope for the best. Seems its more your definition of a mmo that is a bit narrow rather then any arguments being illogical. All I'm asking is that you save your raging for stuff where they really messed up not on stuff that they said would not be in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleeha Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Do you know the financial break down? Do you know how much they had to pay Lucas to even use Star Wars in the title, and to build an entire story off of his work? A Star Wars game has to be the most expensive projects just due to the licensing fees alone. RIFT did not need to pay licensing fees and what not. I doubt many people outside of BW/EA know the financial breakdowns but typically speaking when a budget is created for a project, in my experience, we don't include "licensing" within the scope of "development" costs. That licensing is cost is actualized outside of the cost to build. So is the 300M the total budget including everything? Is it the cost to build? Regardless of semantics here the fact remains that this title was NOT ready for release and it would appear after the first 2 months that it's not managed well. Some of this is just my opinion but when you look at simple things like - security to prevent hacking/cheating, very little Q&A for patches and fixes to patches (repeatedly), poorly executed PTR, the heaping numbers of bugs... This just begin to really add up. Hey, lots of people don't care about those things and fine to them. However, there are 300k+ people who did. Does that mean the game is dead? Nope. Does it mean that BW needs to get their act in gear? Yeah, pretty much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishbrewed Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 What has failed in swtor is the quality of the endgame, releasing 1 raid and 1 boss all of which ahs serious gamebreaking issues at launch... Did they even test the raids before launch of just throw some mobs into an instance as say all done! Oh hey they have a PTR. Oh wait you have to level 1-50 and watch the 200hour movie again to test the end game... Yeah No Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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