Why are people complaining about endgame (vs WoW)

[Xariyth]

Yeah, but everyone was already 85 and it took 2 weeks. It took less than a month for guilds to level to 50 and beat every single HM FP and OPs.

 

Yep, and I am pretty darn sure that if you started a fresh WoW server and gave it a month, Deathwing would be dead. It probably wouldn't even be a month.

[PjPablo]

Yep, and I am pretty darn sure that if you started a fresh WoW server and gave it a month, Deathwing would be dead. It probably wouldn't even be a month.

 

Normal DW? Yes. Heroic? No way.

[Vydor_HC]

Yah, I miss SWG's sandbox but that's another topic all together.

 

-shrugs-

 

I think it on the mark, it's why people complain about the end game content when comparing it to WoW. Sometimes people want things different, not the same. They get tired of the same trend...especially when it's not very good content.

[SpiffyJr]

PvE: The content in Wow was diverse, articulate and challenging. Boss fights were varied and thought out. You had reputation systems, a real working token system that rewarded players regularly, a rich amount of daily quests, crafting quests, achievements (with rewards) etc. Drops from dungeons are exciting to both new players and seasoned.

 

The content in SWTOR is limited to dungeon dailies and the dungeons themselves. The dungeons are all glorified tank/spank encounters. The ability to gain rewards from token drops is just short of grueling. Drops in 5o dungeons are underwhelming, no one gets excited about them. On Raids the drops are better but the content is almost insulting, requiring nothing more than healers focusing tanks and tanks putting their backs to a wall in one instance in EV.

 

PvP: Where to begin? On the rewards level, its just terrible. Even removing RNG from the mix, getting PvP gear is a huge grind (although substantially less now). The quests around PvP are hugely bugged. Most PvP dailies/weekly revolve around Illum, which as of 1.1.2 is still super flawed and doesnt work right. There is documented huge amounts of lag in pvp regardless of system spec (once you get 15-18 people on screen, game goes to crap).As far as balance of pvp, its a CC fest.

 

It was not a good idea to give every class a 4 second ranged stun that can be used against players. Interupts are useless, since interupting an ability does not put it on cooldowns, it can just be recast. Effectively interrupting someone (which takes timing/attention) thats spamming a button (no timing/attention) means very little.

 

Then theres the actual WZ's themselves. At best they copy the worst points of the WoW WZ that they copy. At the best (hutt ball) it seems new until you realize specific group tactics will auto will the game (an organized group of passers with sorcs on heals/pulls are a joke).

 

Then theres the insulting, in a game where its universe was defined by large combats with vehicles, we have no vehicle combat what so ever. Thats a small aside.

 

 

Anyhow, when i reach 50 in wow, i can go out and look for rare goods to craft (crafting in SWTOR is pointless, since you cant craft anything as good as dungeon loot overall), gain rep with factions for rewards (none of that), do normal/heroic dungeons (check, although they are pleasant in WoW, vs insulting my intelligence in SWTOR), do Battle Grounds (sure, lets say SWTOR meets this requirements), Arenas (not in Swtor), open world PvP Areas (Work in WoW, worst aspect of SWTOR), look for a Raid (again, a pleasure in WoW, a pain in Swtor). Queues are more or less instant and apply to PvE and PvP.

 

So what do I do in Swtor?

 

Sit in station

Send companions on missions to bring me stuff that doesnt matter since its not good anyways (unless biochem)

Spam LFG Raid for hours to get into the content I want (no LFG system)

Go to a raid and beat it in 2 hours

Rest of week wait in 1 hour WZ queues. When I win, i dont get credit 1/2 the time. (no cross server pvp, so huge population imbalances on some servers make it impossible to play).

 

I won't comment on PvE since I haven't done most of it. For PvP, I got most of my champion set in a single week. That is far far far less time than it took me to get my blue honor based set in WoW's PvP system. I don't know if it's different now but I was very pleased with the gear rate in PvP. I'm leveling my third 50 now and it should be even faster with the changes, a welcome change.

 

I hate the 4 second stuns and resolve system. I wish they would have just copied DR from WoW which was a very complex and interesting system. I disagree with interrupts being useless. Interrupts are off the global cooldown and at the very least require the target to waste time casting whatever it was they were casting. If you know what spells to interrupt then doing so is very useful and can often net a kill which otherwise would have failed.

 

I don't mind any of the warzones except for Hutt Ball. I liked it at first but now I tend to just go in there and focus on killing people instead of completing the objective. That brings me to another point - there isn't enough reward for doing the objective. I can get more medals (and comms) by drawing a match out and finishing it instead of winning as fast as we can. Furthermore, the medals need to be more fairly distributed among the various classes. As a 50 guardian/powertech getting 10 medals in a game was trivial. As a sage it's far more difficult and I generally only net 6ish medals per game.

 

I like that WoW's crafting gave you a stat bonus that was mostly equivalent across all the professions. For example, jewel crafting had special gems, blacksmithing had the belt socket thing, etc. They also had one or two items that would be equivalent with or better than heroic's so you had a sense of accomplishment there as well. If BioWare gave everyone some sort of stat bonus akin to the stimpacks from Biochem I'd imagine there would be far less complaining about the system.

 

LFG would be a welcome addition. Screw this "community" stuff. People have jobs, real life obligations, etc. When I login I want to be able to do whatever I want as quickly as possible. If 30% of my time is finding a group that's not very efficient use of my play/fun time.

 

Thanks for your input.

[SpiffyJr]

Raiding back in Vanilla WoW versus raiding in TOR in 2012, again, isn't a valid comparison.

 

Raiding in WoW now is 10 man (which is not difficult to PuG while bored), 25 man (but the rewards are no better then 10 man, just a bit more loot from the pinata), or essentially instant with LFR (if you can press 1 to Tracer Missile spam, you have all the skill you need to complete LFR).

 

Raiding in WoW in current times is not a hard task in the slightest.

 

People keep saying LFR. Does that mean Looking for Raid? If so, that's .... insane.

[SpiffyJr]

It was a little bit of both. Building a large, active and skilled enough guild to attempt Molten Core with 40 guildies had a huge gatekeeper effect and people who like to think of themselves as "elite" loved it because it helped them collect themselves in an "exclusive" guild and lord it over everyone else. Moreover, getting 40 people together to learn the instance, the boss mechanics, the boss phases, etc., and then execute it all correctly was like trying to herd retarded cats unless you were in one of the few top guilds on your server (the ones I just mentioned) that collected all the most dedicated, experienced, poop-socking 14-hour-a-day players who had already been playing things like EQ and knew the drill with these types of games.

 

40 man raids were the worst thing ever. My friend and I were discussing how we ever managed to gather such a group. I guess we didn't do it very successfully because we wiped a lot to people standing in purple circles of doom, or failing to cleanse (back when decurse was a single button).

[SpiffyJr]

-shrugs-

 

I think it on the mark, it's why people complain about the end game content when comparing it to WoW. Sometimes people want things different, not the same. They get tired of the same trend...especially when it's not very good content.

 

The content in SWG for my friend and I were to hunt down and dispose of Jedi. We were true bounty hunters, though, and before delivering a killing blow would offer them to double our bounty in exchange for their life. This, of course, was a good deal for them as it meant it saved them potentially hours of grinding experience.

 

We had one Jedi agree and then try to run. We spent the next week or so stopping him from gaining any experience what so ever.

 

Player content, interesting.

[Xariyth]

People keep saying LFR. Does that mean Looking for Raid? If so, that's .... insane.

 

Yup, take Looking for Dungeon, and expand it to a 25 man raid, and voila, you have Looking for Raid. When I stopped playing, for DPS and Heals it was almost an instant queue (a couple of minutes) but for tanks it was like an hour queue (only two tanks per raid - one of those kharmic balancing points for tanks getting instant regular queues .

 

It's a massive loot pinata.

[SpiffyJr]

Yup, take Looking for Dungeon, and expand it to a 25 man raid, and voila, you have Looking for Raid. When I stopped playing, for DPS and Heals it was almost an instant queue (a couple of minutes) but for tanks it was like an hour queue (only two tanks per raid - one of those kharmic balancing points for tanks getting instant regular queues .

 

It's a massive loot pinata.

 

Hah! I've always been a tank and the instant queue's were pretty nice.

[Vydor_HC]

The content in SWG for my friend and I were to hunt down and dispose of Jedi. We were true bounty hunters, though, and before delivering a killing blow would offer them to double our bounty in exchange for their life. This, of course, was a good deal for them as it meant it saved them potentially hours of grinding experience.

 

We had one Jedi agree and then try to run. We spent the next week or so stopping him from gaining any experience what so ever.

 

Player content, interesting.

 

Yup, in LOTRO we have a band, that plays concert gigs all over the realms. Lots of fun and completely player driven.

[TheHastyTadpole]

WARNING TROLLING TO FOLLOW!

 

OK, the last thing I would do after unsubscribing to a subscription game, is go onto the forums and let everyone know I un-sub'd. I can see 2, ok 3 reasons for doing that though.

 

1) Lying, I didnt really unsub, just want to get a rise out of people.

 

2) Regretting my choice to unsub and need validation from random interwebz people to make me feel better about my choice.

 

3) I think Im so important and loved in the forum that I can make everyone else hate it too. Then I can say "I killed SWTOR!, I told people I quit and it sucked and they all quit with me!"

 

I barely post here as it is, just read while Im at work and cant play. I sure would not take the time to come let everyone know I unsubscribed, but then still nay-say and/or "participate" in the online community.

 

BUT to at least address the topic. . . . havn't made it to end game yet so Id have to just take a stab and say there are people who enjoy complaining, and will do so, no matter what. The way they get enjoyment from a game is different than the way I enjoy a game.

 

{spacebar}{spacebar}{spacebar}{spacebar}collect X kill Y{spacebar}{spacebar}{spacebar} seems like a waste to me, but Im not paying everyones sub so enjoy/lothe the game as you like.

[SpiffyJr]

WARNING TROLLING TO FOLLOW!

 

OK, the last thing I would do after unsubscribing to a subscription game, is go onto the forums and let everyone know I un-sub'd. I can see 2, ok 3 reasons for doing that though.

 

1) Lying, I didnt really unsub, just want to get a rise out of people.

 

2) Regretting my choice to unsub and need validation from random interwebz people to make me feel better about my choice.

 

3) I think Im so important and loved in the forum that I can make everyone else hate it too. Then I can say "I killed SWTOR!, I told people I quit and it sucked and they all quit with me!"

 

I barely post here as it is, just read while Im at work and cant play. I sure would not take the time to come let everyone know I unsubscribed, but then still nay-say and/or "participate" in the online community.

 

BUT to at least address the topic. . . . havn't made it to end game yet so Id have to just take a stab and say there are people who enjoy complaining, and will do so, no matter what. The way they get enjoyment from a game is different than the way I enjoy a game.

 

{spacebar}{spacebar}{spacebar}{spacebar}collect X kill Y{spacebar}{spacebar}{spacebar} seems like a waste to me, but Im not paying everyones sub so enjoy/lothe the game as you like.

 

Who said anything about unsubscribing?

[Blotter]

40 man raids were the worst thing ever. My friend and I were discussing how we ever managed to gather such a group. I guess we didn't do it very successfully because we wiped a lot to people standing in purple circles of doom, or failing to cleanse (back when decurse was a single button).

 

Yeah, and I think people here who like to whine about this game and compare it to WoW really ignore the fact that it was mostly the "herding cats" thing of having to organize and synchronize 40 people that made vanilla WoW's raiding hard, created a gatekeeper effect and started WoW down the road of creating a heirarchy of players who got to call themselves "elite" and then the rest of the "rabble" who couldn't land themselves in a guild of those "elites," for whatever reason...and a lot of those reasons simply had nothing to do with skill.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think SWTOR's devs have a little learning to do in terms of making boss encounters more interesting, varied and complex...and I think they'll come along...but even WoW had to back off the 40-person requirement because it was simply ridiculous and was not helping the community nor helping them retain players. And backing off the 40 person requirement is a large part of what has made WoW "easier" over time. Anyway, the point is to give as many people as much enjoyment and fun as possible and access to the entire game they bought, not create a situation where an exclusive club of 1% of the players get to experience 100% of the game and 99% of the players only get to see 90% of it....all so that 1% of players can f-p themselves silly and behave like turds with stangely inflated egos over the imaginary video game fame and respect they think they've earned themselves.

 

The way I look at it: if you're playing the game and raiding so you can say "I did it first" or "I can do it but you can't" as opposed to enjoying the content and feeling like you had a PERSONAL achievement, then you've missed the entire point and belong in rubber room wearing a straight jacket.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Blotter

[TheHastyTadpole]

Yeah,, the rumor mill is what caused me to be bored to tears after a couple weeks at level 50. The rumor mill cancelled my sub too.

 

 

 

^^^that guy. Ive seens a lot of posts about people quitting, some with blown up enough heads to actually start a thread about them quitting, Im just browsing the forums at work and saw that post and decided to reply, like the first line said, totally trolling I suppose but meh, bored at work, would rather be smugglin on NarShad, I know Im close to getting a wookie, Ive seen him now at least in a cutscene. . . . . . heeeeere wookie wookie wookie

[SpiffyJr]

Yeah, and I think people here who like to whine about this game and compare it to WoW really ignore the fact that it was mostly the "herding cats" thing of having to organize and synchronize 40 people that made vanilla WoW's raiding hard, created a gatekeeper effect and started WoW down the road of creating a heirarchy of players who got to call themselves "elite" and then the rest of the "rabble" who couldn't land themselves in a guild of those "elites," for whatever reason...and a lot of those reasons simply had nothing to do with skill.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think SWTOR's devs have a little learning to do in terms of making boss encounters more interesting, varied and complex...and I think they'll come along...but even WoW had to back off the 40-person requirement because it was simply ridiculous and was not helping the community nor helping them retain players. And backing off the 40 person requirement is a large part of what has made WoW "easier" over time. Anyway, the point is to give as many people as much enjoyment and fun as possible and access to the entire game they bought, not create a situation where an exclusive club of 1% of the players get to experience 100% of the game and 99% of the players only get to see 90% of it....all so that 1% of players can f-p themselves silly and behave like turds with stangely inflated egos over the imaginary video game fame and respect they think they've earned themselves.

 

The way I look at it: if you're playing the game and raiding so you can say "I did it first" or "I can do it but you can't" as opposed to enjoying the content and feeling like you had a PERSONAL achievement, then you've missed the entire point and belong in rubber room wearing a straight jacket.

 

The only response I have to this is, "Yes."

[SpiffyJr]

^^^that guy. Ive seens a lot of posts about people quitting, some with blown up enough heads to actually start a thread about them quitting, Im just browsing the forums at work and saw that post and decided to reply, like the first line said, totally trolling I suppose but meh, bored at work, would rather be smugglin on NarShad, I know Im close to getting a wookie, Ive seen him now at least in a cutscene. . . . . . heeeeere wookie wookie wookie

 

Ah, I missed that. I guess my QQ glasses were on and I skip over anyone stating they unsubscribed. If they've quit, fine, but they can't offer me or the community anything constructive.

[Bovinity]

"No endgame content" is one of those things that I think has been repeated so much that it's just going to become "truth". It really feels like another situation where the new game on the block gets judged with an unfair harshness on things that the established games get a pass on.

 

Right now there's actually more current tier raid bosses and 4-man heroic instances than there are in WoW. Sure, there's been a lot of guilds that cleared the Nightmare modes really fast, but many of them were also established guilds from other games. There's really no way to make content that can't be steamrolled by established top-tier guilds without also making it competely impossible for everyone else.

 

Maybe the current endgame is a lot of "more of the same" right now...and that's pretty typical for the genre. Complaining about it is akin to saying that a new FPS is more of the same because you shoot people with a gun. It's obvious that they're *trying* to work new ideas and systems in (Space combat, the gear mod system, etc) but it takes time. Even WoW was basically trying to emulate much of what EverQuest did at first, they didn't really start to make "their own" game until partway through Burning Crusade.

 

TL;DR: Give em a break. It's a good game that's just getting off the ground.

[ferroz]

if you can press 1 to Tracer Missile spam, you have all the skill you need to complete LFR

No, you have to be able to follow rudimentary directions.

 

The LFR fights are leaps and bounds more complicated than anything EQ had up until PoP at least.

[ferroz]

So, just lack of content. I'm hopeful, then, as the game is young and BioWare is making very very frequent patches. They also have the resources to continue to pour in content. They released a new dungeon, what, three weeks after release?

eh, that just means that they weren't able to get it ready for release, not that they actually made a new dungeon in 3 weeks.

[Kaltastic]

Just a couple of thoughts from a long time WoW Raider

 

The latest raid Tier in WoW (Dragon Soul) has been pretty much a cake walk. My guild was 5/7 week one and cleared by week 3. This isn't bragging or e-peening, we are two night a week casual raiders and I would say we fall in the middle of the pack when it comes to clearing content. It was just way to easy. Molten Core and many of the early WoW raids also had built in throttles, i.e. you had to get 3 hunters with the tranq shot drop to get past a certain boss, you had to have a tank if fire resist gear etc. None of that stuff is in the game anymore.

 

Also, WoW raiding has its share of bugs too. We have been running the previous tier still to get an epic item for a member and in the same week we had:

 

-bug where boss becomes untargetable in phase 2. Only solution is to wipe and hopes it doesn't happen again

-bug where resetting a boss from regular to heroic mode boots the raid from the instance and resets all of the trash

-bug where an encounter stays 'in-progress' after a fight and we had to wait for a soft-reset.

-bug where gaps in lava for a trash mob which were supposed to be 'safe' where killing people.

 

 

I remember opening ticket after ticket with Blizzard when Wrath and Naxx came out because there was loot bugs with the chests on certain bosses. This stuff was never fixed

[Iseldiera]

the need to compare the endgame with WoW is the obvious flaw in this post.

 

We are not comparing it with WoW when we are complaining.

 

We are comparing it to the pre-WoW era mmo industry, with titles such as Daoc and Shadowbane, where gear centric approach in PvP was non existent.

[Dantragk]

It's going to suck when they have to make new VOs to keep up with content. That's going to drive up their costs a lot. I know somewhere they stated that they had a years worth of VOs. But what about the next expansions VOs and beyond that. It might end up shooting them in the foot as far as costs.

[SpiffyJr]

It's going to suck when they have to make new VOs to keep up with content. That's going to drive up their costs a lot. I know somewhere they stated that they had a years worth of VOs. But what about the next expansions VOs and beyond that. It might end up shooting them in the foot as far as costs.

 

Or it might keep people interested and subscribed. You never know.

[Dantragk]

Or it might keep people interested and subscribed. You never know.

 

I meant from a development stand point not from a content/interest point. I can't even imagine how time consuming it's going to be for them to make content beyond what they have. They're going to have to start recording new VOs within a few months.

[DarthRik]

How long does it take people to finish end game content now in WoW? People will always strive to be "world first" but that does not accurately represent how the average player perceives the instance. Also, WoW started with 40 man raids which means you had to rely on more people to not screw up. Was it the content that was difficult or was it finding 40 competent people to do said content?

 

deathwing was killed normal mode on the day of the patch

 

heroic was about 3 weeks later

 

LFR groups started to kill him about a month after patch day