Why are people complaining about endgame (vs WoW)

[Cerion]

People who complain about endgame ALWAYS complain about endgame, no matter what game they're in. Why? Because it's really not a fault of the game, but a problem with those sorts of players themselves. And if they took the time to self-reflect on their playstyle, they'd realize it. But they don't have the time, do they, because they're too busy moving on to yet another game to burn through THAT content in record time (and then complain about lack of endgame).

[SpiffyJr]

That's another issue I have with this game currently.

 

PVP is Gear > Class > Skill

 

and in some cases

 

Class > Gear > skill

 

 

This is not a skill based PVP game like they claimed it would be.

 

This is my #1 issue with the game as well. They claim to be reducing the affect gear will have on PvP soon so my opinion may change. I wish there was a way to reward PvP and PvE players with equal gear that could be swapped freely between PvE/PvP without affect the game play of either. Wishful thinking on my part...

[Mavajo]

Why are you guys so "confident" in BioWare's patching? Every patch they've done to date has broken almost as much as it's fixed, and they haven't introduced a single ounce of new content. So where is all this "confidence" coming from? Because they made great singleplayer games in the past? I'm not sure how much that counts for in an MMO. Edited February 9, 2012 by Mavajo

[SpiffyJr]

People who complain about endgame ALWAYS complain about endgame, no matter what game they're in. Why? Because it's really not a fault of the game, but a problem with those sorts of players themselves. And if they took the time to self-reflect on their playstyle, they'd realize it. But they don't have the time, do they, because they're too busy moving on to yet another game to burn through THAT content in record time (and then complain about lack of endgame).

 

I lol'd (because I agree, secretly). shhh

[SpiffyJr]

Why are you guys so "confident" in BioWare's patching? Every patch they've done to date has broken almost as much as it's fixed, and they have introduced a single ounce of new content. So where is all this "confidence" coming from? Because they made great singleplayer games in the past? I'm not sure how a singleplayer track record translates to an MMO. If anything, I think their singleplayer-centric design history has caused harm to this game.

 

Rise of Rakghouls is new content. I stopped reading there because you obviously haven't read the patch notes.

[run_hello]

I wish I had Valor traded =(.

 

 

But again, content is way too easy(save a few things). Leveling is way too fast. All encounters are just DPS checks.

 

I wish I had valor traded more. Got to 53 and it was 3am so I went to bed. It really slows down after you hit 50.

 

But they really fixed that. You can't valor trade if you don't get credit for any kills. Oops then they switched it back to how it was before. I forget now, are we getting credit for kills in Ilum or not, it's hard to keep it all straight. Great minds you have working there BW!

[Xariyth]

Most likely cos the content in wow was actually challenging at the start. And noone finished MC first week it came out.

 

A lot of people complain that this is 2012, not 2004. So MC being done first week isn't consequential.

 

Let's compare it fairly.

 

Dragon Soul was released.

 

How many days did it take for Deathwing to die on your server?

 

I know in LFR (really the comparison to basic operation), it was two weeks just because it was gated.

[SpiffyJr]

A lot of people complain that this is 2012, not 2004. So MC being done first week isn't consequential.

 

Let's compare it fairly.

 

Dragon Soul was released.

 

How many days did it take for Deathwing to die on your server?

 

I know in LFR (really the comparison to basic operation), it was two weeks just because it was gated.

 

I honestly think that has a LOT to do with the # of players in a raid and less with the difficulty of the dungeon. Getting 40 competent people is VERY hard to do.

[Dantragk]

A lot of people complain that this is 2012, not 2004. So MC being done first week isn't consequential.

 

Let's compare it fairly.

 

Dragon Soul was released.

 

How many days did it take for Deathwing to die on your server?

 

I know in LFR (really the comparison to basic operation), it was two weeks just because it was gated.

 

Yeah, but everyone was already 85 and it took 2 weeks. It took less than a month for guilds to level to 50 and beat every single HM FP and OPs.

[Mavajo]

Rise of Rakghouls is new content. I stopped reading there because you obviously haven't read the patch notes.

 

And yet, everyone is still complaining about lack of endgame. Mission accomplished!

[Zannis]

Are people really complaining about how quickly some guilds cleared end game content?

 

These guilds were playing together in Beta. They went into launch knowing exactly what to do.

 

Just like how every top rated guild in WoW tests as many raid encounters as they can on the PTR before things go live.

[SpiffyJr]

And yet, everyone is still complaining about lack of endgame. Mission accomplished!

 

They're probably riding the rumor mill and not reading patches notes.

 

*cough cough*

 

[Seuria]

I'll answer in the name of being productive, but only in that sense. I'm not really the fangirl type. Please take it is that. :-)

 

What WoW has going on right now. Right now, this moment. You have all the aforementioned things, but also three concurrent events are active (Lunar Festival, Love Is In the Air, and Darkmoon Faire). The Faire was totally redone with 4.3, and the other two added at least one new item for players to work towards. It's actually something of an insanely busy week, particularly if you ignored the first two weeks of the Lunar Festival or are trying to do it on an alt still. Noblegarden (Easter) is around the corner as well!

 

On top of that I'm still gearing up. Since I don't really raid anymore, I'm taking the alternative path offered by Blizzard. Every week I acquire and reach the valor point cap, and these points are awarded for doing random dungeons, looking for raid, and defeating regular or hardmode raid bosses. I've been capping every week since 4.3 came out (usually doing five hardmode 5 mans and a the front 4 bosses in LFR) and I'm still two weeks away from finishing up with the VP vendor. That essentially has made this a three month process.

 

Blizzard is also promising further alternatives in the next expansion. They'll be adding VP as a reward for dailies and for completing the new 2 or 3 man PvE scenarios. They're also adding in the much maligned pet battles, but as someone who chases achievements and collects such things (I have 135 or so pets, currently) I'm excited for it. Fear my Alliance Balloon, folks!

 

Anyway, for me, I prefer WoW at this point, but your mileage may very. My opinion certainly doesn't dictate anyone else's or present anything but, well, my opinion.

[SpiffyJr]

Are people really complaining about how quickly some guilds cleared end game content?

 

These guilds were playing together in Beta. They went into launch knowing exactly what to do.

 

Just like how every top rated guild in WoW tests as many raid encounters as they can on the PTR before things go live.

 

I think the perceived amount of endgame content depends on whose doing it. I have only done one hard mode with my group since release. To me, there's *plenty* of endgame content. Your hardcore raiders will never have enough content. People in the middle are, well, in the middle.

[Dantragk]

I think the perceived amount of endgame content depends on whose doing it. I have only done one hard mode with my group since release. To me, there's *plenty* of endgame content. Your hardcore raiders will never have enough content. People in the middle are, well, in the middle.

 

Except I'm far from hardcore and don't have a dedicated group and have 4/5 sets of both PVE and PVP and have beat every single HM FP and beat every single boss(I refuse to do HM/NM).

[Vydor_HC]

more dungeons, more dailies, more battle grounds, more raids. Achievements and collecting (rare mounts, pets, legendary weapons, etc)

 

There's also the "want something new" factor.

 

and the "yawn, already done all of that because it wasn't actually hard" bit.

 

But mostly the problem is that tor doesn't offer anything significantly new over wow's end game; so they're just offering less of the same.

 

-nods-

 

This is most of what I've seen. It's not a lack of content as much as it is the type of content and the stability of that content. The people I play with are getting sick and tired of the same exact activities coming out for each MMO, and we tend to go back to playing sandbox type games that are not so structured. Players can make the content feel "new" if the game allows them to do so.

[SpiffyJr]

I'll answer in the name of being productive, but only in that sense. I'm not really the fangirl type. Please take it is that. :-)

 

What WoW has going on right now. Right now, this moment. You have all the aforementioned things, but also three concurrent events are active (Lunar Festival, Love Is In the Air, and Darkmoon Faire). The Faire was totally redone with 4.3, and the other two added at least one new item for players to work towards. It's actually something of an insanely busy week, particularly if you ignored the first two weeks of the Lunar Festival or are trying to do it on an alt still. Noblegarden (Easter) is around the corner as well!

 

On top of that I'm still gearing up. Since I don't really raid anymore, I'm taking the alternative path offered by Blizzard. Every week I acquire and reach the valor point cap, and these points are awarded for doing random dungeons, looking for raid, and defeating regular or hardmode raid bosses. I've been capping every week since 4.3 came out (usually doing five hardmode 5 mans and a the front 4 bosses in LFR) and I'm still two weeks away from finishing up with the VP vendor. That essentially has made this a three month process.

 

Blizzard is also promising further alternatives in the next expansion. They'll be adding VP as a reward for dailies and for completing the new 2 or 3 man PvE scenarios. They're also adding in the much maligned pet battles, but as someone who chases achievements and collects such things (I have 135 or so pets, currently) I'm excited for it. Fear my Alliance Balloon, folks!

 

Anyway, for me, I prefer WoW at this point, but your mileage may very. My opinion certainly doesn't dictate anyone else's or present anything but, well, my opinion.

 

Thanks for your input. A lot has changed since I've played WoW. Don't we have commendations that are essentially valor points?

Edited February 9, 2012 by SpiffyJr

[SpiffyJr]

Except I'm far from hardcore and don't have a dedicated group and have 4/5 sets of both PVE and PVP and have beat every single HM FP and beat every single boss(I refuse to do HM/NM).

 

" and have beat every single HM FP"

 

"(I refuse to do HM/NM)"

 

I'm confused. Have you done HM or not?

[SpiffyJr]

-nods-

 

This is most of what I've seen. It's not a lack of content as much as it is the type of content and the stability of that content. The people I play with are getting sick and tired of the same exact activities coming out for each MMO, and we tend to go back to playing sandbox type games that are not so structured. Players can make the content feel "new" if the game allows them to do so.

 

Yah, I miss SWG's sandbox but that's another topic all together.

[Dantragk]

" and have beat every single HM FP"

 

"(I refuse to do HM/NM)"

 

I'm confused. Have you done HM or not?

 

Sorry I didn't edit.

 

I beat every HM FP. And can do so now extremely quickly except for the bug ridden bosses.

 

I have beat every OP. But I refuse to do HM/NM ops because I really don't feel like doing the same thing over with them.

[PjPablo]

And yet, everyone is still complaining about lack of endgame. Mission accomplished!

 

Maybe because that patch's content was cleared by the end of the same day it was released.

[Faytte]

PvE: The content in Wow was diverse, articulate and challenging. Boss fights were varied and thought out. You had reputation systems, a real working token system that rewarded players regularly, a rich amount of daily quests, crafting quests, achievements (with rewards) etc. Drops from dungeons are exciting to both new players and seasoned.

 

The content in SWTOR is limited to dungeon dailies and the dungeons themselves. The dungeons are all glorified tank/spank encounters. The ability to gain rewards from token drops is just short of grueling. Drops in 5o dungeons are underwhelming, no one gets excited about them. On Raids the drops are better but the content is almost insulting, requiring nothing more than healers focusing tanks and tanks putting their backs to a wall in one instance in EV.

 

PvP: Where to begin? On the rewards level, its just terrible. Even removing RNG from the mix, getting PvP gear is a huge grind (although substantially less now). The quests around PvP are hugely bugged. Most PvP dailies/weekly revolve around Illum, which as of 1.1.2 is still super flawed and doesnt work right. There is documented huge amounts of lag in pvp regardless of system spec (once you get 15-18 people on screen, game goes to crap).As far as balance of pvp, its a CC fest.

 

It was not a good idea to give every class a 4 second ranged stun that can be used against players. Interupts are useless, since interupting an ability does not put it on cooldowns, it can just be recast. Effectively interrupting someone (which takes timing/attention) thats spamming a button (no timing/attention) means very little.

 

Then theres the actual WZ's themselves. At best they copy the worst points of the WoW WZ that they copy. At the best (hutt ball) it seems new until you realize specific group tactics will auto will the game (an organized group of passers with sorcs on heals/pulls are a joke).

 

Then theres the insulting, in a game where its universe was defined by large combats with vehicles, we have no vehicle combat what so ever. Thats a small aside.

 

 

Anyhow, when i reach 50 in wow, i can go out and look for rare goods to craft (crafting in SWTOR is pointless, since you cant craft anything as good as dungeon loot overall), gain rep with factions for rewards (none of that), do normal/heroic dungeons (check, although they are pleasant in WoW, vs insulting my intelligence in SWTOR), do Battle Grounds (sure, lets say SWTOR meets this requirements), Arenas (not in Swtor), open world PvP Areas (Work in WoW, worst aspect of SWTOR), look for a Raid (again, a pleasure in WoW, a pain in Swtor). Queues are more or less instant and apply to PvE and PvP.

 

So what do I do in Swtor?

 

Sit in station

Send companions on missions to bring me stuff that doesnt matter since its not good anyways (unless biochem)

Spam LFG Raid for hours to get into the content I want (no LFG system)

Go to a raid and beat it in 2 hours

Rest of week wait in 1 hour WZ queues. When I win, i dont get credit 1/2 the time. (no cross server pvp, so huge population imbalances on some servers make it impossible to play).

[Mavajo]

They're probably riding the rumor mill and not reading patches notes.

 

*cough cough*

 

 

Yeah,, the rumor mill is what caused me to be bored to tears after a couple weeks at level 50. The rumor mill cancelled my sub too.

[Xariyth]

I honestly think that has a LOT to do with the # of players in a raid and less with the difficulty of the dungeon. Getting 40 competent people is VERY hard to do.

 

Raiding back in Vanilla WoW versus raiding in TOR in 2012, again, isn't a valid comparison.

 

Raiding in WoW now is 10 man (which is not difficult to PuG while bored), 25 man (but the rewards are no better then 10 man, just a bit more loot from the pinata), or essentially instant with LFR (if you can press 1 to Tracer Missile spam, you have all the skill you need to complete LFR).

 

Raiding in WoW in current times is not a hard task in the slightest.

[Blotter]

How long does it take people to finish end game content now in WoW? People will always strive to be "world first" but that does not accurately represent how the average player perceives the instance. Also, WoW started with 40 man raids which means you had to rely on more people to not screw up. Was it the content that was difficult or was it finding 40 competent people to do said content?

 

It was a little bit of both. Building a large, active and skilled enough guild to attempt Molten Core with 40 guildies had a huge gatekeeper effect and people who like to think of themselves as "elite" loved it because it helped them collect themselves in an "exclusive" guild and lord it over everyone else. Moreover, getting 40 people together to learn the instance, the boss mechanics, the boss phases, etc., and then execute it all correctly was like trying to herd retarded cats unless you were in one of the few top guilds on your server (the ones I just mentioned) that collected all the most dedicated, experienced, poop-socking 14-hour-a-day players who had already been playing things like EQ and knew the drill with these types of games.