Paladinian Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Grouchy today, but sometimes it does seem like they designed Sages/Sorcs, penciled in some ideas for the others, and called it a day without finishing the designs. This is why I get concerned when talk of nerfing Sage / sorc gets brought up. They aren't Over-Powered healers, they are Properly-Powered. They have everything a healer should have to fill their role properly in the current game. The other healers miss varying parts of the Sage / Sorc toolset, with alternate class features that more or less don't make up for it. Which really just means the other healers need some design love, not that the paragon ideal needs to be hit with the ugly stick. Here's hoping for 1.2... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 Arguing with people who are allergic to math or logic and think that because they personally either a) don't have any trouble as a class or b) get an ego boost bragging that they don't when they actually do, that it somehow invalidates anyone else's comments about struggle puts me in a bad mood. Not sure what went wrong in some people's upbringing where any criticism, no matter how constructive or positively phrased, is interpreted as an insult and an attack, or how only their opinion matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobudo Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Arguing with people who are allergic to math or logic and think that because they personally either a) don't have any trouble as a class or b) get an ego boost bragging that they don't when they actually do, that it somehow invalidates anyone else's comments about struggle puts me in a bad mood. Not sure what went wrong in some people's upbringing where any criticism, no matter how constructive or positively phrased, is interpreted as an insult and an attack, or how only their opinion matters. That's why I've formally transitioned to attacking with reason rather than reason alone. I can't recommend it enough, very cathartic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaverro Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 To be quite honest, the only noticeable problem I've seen is the lack of a large group healing effect. 3 targets is fine for a Hard Mode Flashpoint wherein 3 people should be at most your target. As for throughput, the biggest strength in Merc heals is that we are mechanical. Not bashing anyone who is struggling while actually doing their best but I can't say I see much of an issue. I even find myself using Rapid Scan more than I should out of sheer boredom (save in Ops). My heat is rarely ever over 50% let alone peaking and I have a considerable amount of Alacrity. So long as Kolto Missile and Healing Scan are present on the target with the Kolto Shell ANY target *should* be a simple manner of Rapid Shots away from living every hit. Also, this method ensures that Supercharged Gas is ready for the intense healing situations we often run into. Merc/Commando heals are all about positioning and how well you truly know your abilities and when to use them. If you see a lot of problems consider simply looking over your tree or playing an alt for a day. You're able to tackle your problem like it is the first time playing again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psymunn Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) Couple of PVP changes coming in 1.1.5 that'll be great for healers. "Healers in Warzones now receive kill credit when a healed player kills an enemy." This is an issue i mentioned a few pages ago. I believe this already works in Illum, but not 100% sure. The second change is that medal rewards are doubled, but cap at 4 medals. this, coupled with the previous change are for healers. earning 4, 5 medals, as a healer, is quite easy (2.5 in a single heal, 75k healed being the two easiest). however, after getting credit for kill assists, it should be simple enough to cap out medal gain each match, meaning we'll be on even footing with everyone else. this can only get better when they add the objective based medals (in 1.2 i believe). tl;dr we should now get the same kills and medals as everyone Edited February 29, 2012 by psymunn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neulwen Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Very nice thread with many good suggestions! Things definitely need to be done about operative/scoundrel healing to make it competitive with the others. In addition to the ones mentioned, operatives don't have any grip/push/knockback abilities, neither ways to guard against them, while other classes have at least one. So, operatives should get at least one of them as well. As for the idea about SP/EMP consuming the KP/SRMP HoT or the suggested new Kolto Infusion / Kolto Pack HoT, this wouldn't really improve the situation over it consuming a TA as it is, because the TA is returned if target is below 30%, and the kolto HoT may keep ticking while we use SP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Very nice thread with many good suggestions! Things definitely need to be done about operative/scoundrel healing to make it competitive with the others. In addition to the ones mentioned, operatives don't have any grip/push/knockback abilities, neither ways to guard against them, while other classes have at least one. So, operatives should get at least one of them as well. As for the idea about SP/EMP consuming the KP/SRMP HoT or the suggested new Kolto Infusion / Kolto Pack HoT, this wouldn't really improve the situation over it consuming a TA as it is, because the TA is returned if target is below 30%, and the kolto HoT may keep ticking while we use SP. I think the intent of that suggestion was to add mechanics and synergy, and make the doing of it a little more interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neulwen Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Yes.., but, it would essentially also nerf the healing further. However, a new emergency 10 min or so CD heal could be added, which consumed the HoT but in return healed for a huge amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindingShadow Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Increase the speed boost of Dodge when talented by scramble. A 20% increase for 3 seconds is not extremely useful. Also, make useable on top of sprint or any other speed boost so that we can have out of combat speed boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Yes.., but, it would essentially also nerf the healing further. However, a new emergency 10 min or so CD heal could be added, which consumed the HoT but in return healed for a huge amount. Not necessarily. What if you keep SRMP rolling on both tanks. Then, the tank who currently has the boss is taking a lot of damage, you EMP and are out of UH stacks...but because SRMP is on the tank it consumes that instead, and, not only does it let you use the EMP without UH, it also increases how much it heals for by a significant amount. Of course, now you have to spent energy to replace SRMP, but that's only fair and you had the option there for some major burst healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Updated through here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neulwen Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 What if you keep SRMP rolling on both tanks. Then, the tank who currently has the boss is taking a lot of damage, you EMP and are out of UH stacks...but because SRMP is on the tank it consumes that instead, and, not only does it let you use the EMP without UH, it also increases how much it heals for by a significant amount. Of course, now you have to spent energy to replace SRMP, but that's only fair and you had the option there for some major burst healing. If I'm out of TA/UH, I cast a Kolto Injection to get a new one, or I just don't use SP/EMP until the target is below 30 %. I much prefer being able to spam SP continuously when the target is below 30 % to having to recast the HoT for each SP use. If however you mean that this HoT consumption would only be a back-up mechanic when out of TA, that wouldn't be so bad, if it increased the amount then healed, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 If I'm out of TA/UH, I cast a Kolto Injection to get a new one, or I just don't use SP/EMP until the target is below 30 %. I much prefer being able to spam SP continuously when the target is below 30 % to having to recast the HoT for each SP use. If however you mean that this HoT consumption would only be a back-up mechanic when out of TA, that wouldn't be so bad, if it increased the amount then healed, yes. That is one possible interpretation. I have no way of knowing the intentions of whoever suggested it. I am just pointing out that it is a mechanic change suggestion, and can be a nerf or a buff depending on how it is implemented. In general I just add suggestions as they are made, it is up to the Devs to decide if a) they are going to read it, b) if they like an idea and then c) how to implement and balance the idea. The only real filtering I do is if a proposal is such that it sounds like a buff but would, in practice, actually be a nerf. And I've only done that once so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnanoMaldito Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I agree with tons of things said in this post. Especifically some of the buffs for us Operatives/Scoundrels healers, we need some kind of buff or redesign and we need it NOW. Every single Op/Scoundrel out there is rerolling to Sorcerer/Sage and that's never good for the game. Right now there's no reason to take an Op to a raid over a Merc/Sorc combo, and that needs to be adressed ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 Guild Summit just shot down Commando/Merc Battle Rez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladinian Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Guild Summit just shot down Commando/Merc Battle Rez. Well, they framed it as a "you never know" sort of thing, but yeah, nothing coming in the foreseeable future. Coupled with 1.2 coming out sometime in April, late April probably, and with that no major healer fixes will be seen for quite some time... Well, I will confess that between the response we got in the second developer Q&A and now the dismissal of in-combat res as a necessity for every healing class... well, I guess I don't have a great deal of hope that the changes will be what is needed. It is quite the enthusiasm dampener to know that for another two months there will remain only one 'proper' healer. And, momentum being the unforgiving beast that it is, such will likely carry forward long past that even if the changes do end up being amazing. Aw well, I shouldn't get down about it, Mass Effect 3 is out tomorrow, so hooray for imminent distraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caileron Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I have my op at 28 and can sadly see where he is going. i really enjoy his game solo and the story but as a healer I am very undercooked. I have healed in WoW and Rift and I can tell you healing in SWTOR especially as an Op is not fun, not compelling in any way and often not successful. Here's why. At 28 I have a cast time heal, a hot that stacks twice, a channelled weak heal, a second cast time heal that depends on a buff, 2 resource regens and one long CD emergency resource return. I have no AOE heal until much later, no shield. Having lots of abilities but only a few heals means you get very few choices about how to heal. There is no style - only clicking whichever ability is off CD and you still have enough energy to use. I am forever running out of energy and even though I am healing like crazy in +4s I do not heal for enough. When you run out of energy and have used your resource returns up you end up with nothing left to do but watch people die. Healers should never be left with nothing they can do. That is THE most frustrating place to be as a group healer and healers hould not run out of their resource in the first 15 seconds of a fight. Operative healing really needs a redo. It needs more heals, better reource management ie lower costs and the heals need to be stronger. Failing that my guy is gonna quest to the end and get shelved like many other people have already done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saella Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) Here GeorgZ response to our complain ! QUITE QQING ! YOU AREN'T SORCERER Sacarsm off... -so if you run out of mana, its because we doesn't have infinite ressource (we are not sorcerer) -if our heal are weak (still aren't sorcerer) -What about our aoe heal ! lol... (no sorcerer) -No utility ! (because they gave all to sorcerer, and we couldn't have 4 classes the same(sorc/sage, i.a/smugg) so ... they just gave nothing to i.a/smugg) But, you qq'ers can stop... because you have stealth !!! Sacarsm is really off... (See GZ we can troll too) Edited March 12, 2012 by Saella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphasoup Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Replying to this thread so I can watch it. Awesome thread, lots of info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobudo Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 and now the dismissal of in-combat res as a necessity for every healing class... The only thing is that, given how poorly implemented the in-combat res is currently, you're really not missing out on much except in 4-man content. In 8 or 16-man you should have another class around that can do the same thing (remember, Operative/Scoundrel and Sorcerer/Sage DPS get access to the ability as well) and since it triggers a party-wide 5 min debuff on in-combat res, nothing is lost. So my point is: yes, you should have it, but you're really not missing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 The only thing is that, given how poorly implemented the in-combat res is currently, you're really not missing out on much except in 4-man content. In 8 or 16-man you should have another class around that can do the same thing (remember, Operative/Scoundrel and Sorcerer/Sage DPS get access to the ability as well) and since it triggers a party-wide 5 min debuff on in-combat res, nothing is lost. So my point is: yes, you should have it, but you're really not missing out. My 8 man group has no Scoundrels. We run 1-2 Sages, one healer and one DPS who can't always make it. On days he isn't there, if our Sage healer dies...wipe it up an restart cause there's nothing I can do about it. Now, if you brought any other healer...you'd probably have downed that boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladinian Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 On days he isn't there, if our Sage healer dies...wipe it up an restart cause there's nothing I can do about it. Well, if you have any Gunslingers or Shadows in the group, they could stealth and conventionally res the Sage for you, I suppose? Seriously, though I don't play one, I have great sympathy for the lack of Res on the Commando side. I don't understand why it isn't understood by the Devs to be a necessary component in any viable healer class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 Well, if you have any Gunslingers or Shadows in the group, they could stealth and conventionally res the Sage for you, I suppose? Seriously, though I don't play one, I have great sympathy for the lack of Res on the Commando side. I don't understand why it isn't understood by the Devs to be a necessary component in any viable healer class. Honestly, I don't care if we never get one...if they spread them around some more. Sages and Scoundrels get them? Give them to Gunslingers and Shadows, too. In WoW you had a lot of people with them, but not every class. Druids: tank/healer/dps. Death Knight: tank/dps. Warlock: dps. Odds are every raid had at least two available, which let you use one if the dead person was your battle-rezzer. In SWTOR, only two have them: Scoundrels who are extremely rare, and Sages. If your Sage is dead...better hope you have another. Do we really need more reasons to stack Sages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaearth Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) So... Are the 1.2 PTS notes a big enough confirmation that the dev's don't give a crap about reasoned arguments, and instead prefer nearly incomprehensible whines? Did anything at all we contributed get used by the devs? I didn't re-read the thread after reading the patch notes, but nothing in the notes seemed remotely familiar (or intelligent/reasonable for that matter). Edit: Ah I see you're already on it RuQu, noticed the abysmally small and woefully depressing patch of green. Edited March 17, 2012 by Xaearth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 So... Are the 1.2 PTS notes a big enough confirmation that the dev's don't give a crap about reasoned arguments, and instead prefer nearly incomprehensible whines? Did anything at all we contributed get used by the devs? I didn't re-read the thread after reading the patch notes, but nothing in the notes seemed remotely familiar (or intelligent/reasonable for that matter). Edit: Ah I see you're already on it RuQu, noticed the abysmally small and woefully depressing patch of green. Yeah, there were pretty much only bug fixes for Sages, and they don't have much on the list because they were so massively OP to begin with. I got through the Sc/Op section, a bit disappointed by only two areas changing, but at least the KC/RN one looks quite good. Then I read the Commando section and just hit update, since I am pretty sure "nerf them into uselessness" wasn't on the list anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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