Healer Request Compilation

[RuQu]

For Mercenaries/Commandos:

Looks like a nice listing. I'd love to see the cap lifted off Kolto Missile/Bomb.

 

I do want to request a change to the Proactive/Preventative Medicine talent. The HoT gained by this ability is terrible at higher levels. Please scale it to the heal, or something similar. I feel this ability should be more useful especially since Healing Scan has a 9 sec (with skills) cooldown on it. It would also make popping Supercharged Gas more effective, especially in aoe damage situations.

 

The torhead listing for preventative medicine HoT is out of date and lists it as 9s, when it lasts 2, presumably it was longer in an earlier build. The spell does have a coefficient, though, but I doubt it is the 0.26 listed in torhead since that had it ticking 3 times over 9 seconds and we know that is wrong.

 

The shorter HoT is a plus because it means we don't clip it if we spam AP/MP during SCC phases.

 

Anyway, the fact that it has a coefficient means that it does scale. Also, tooltips are currently bugged in game, in particular for any ability granted by skill tree choices. Toss an AP (Healing Scan) on yourself and watch the HoT tick values and they should be greater than the tooltip says. A combat log would let this have more details to back it up.

[bobudo]

As an Operative healer, allow me to endorse RuQu's statement.

 

Considering Accomplished Doctor does not apply to Surgical Probe, a second cast heals for more than your crits ever likely will (Surge % from rating is capped at 50% + 50% base rate + 0% from skills and buffs = 100% max, which would need huge amounts of surge). True it costs a GCD to fire off that free one, but it hits harder, both have a change to crit, and if incoming damage keeps the tank below 30% after that GCD, you can fire off a third.

 

I've made my opinion known that Surgical Probe/Emergency Medpac spam is a gimmick, but it least it has limited utility.

 

The 100% crit chance would be worthless for the reasons RuQu identified: it would be less helpful in a 30%HP and falling situation; it would require increasing a stat that our end-game itemization all but excludes (though I hope to see alacrity phased out in the future in favor of crit chance + power); and overall would give us one less viable ability (of the 3 we have!).

 

I will add it in if you want, as I say it is a compilation not a list of "endorsed" ideas, but I wanted to at least point out how it looks to me, a Commando, like it might actually nerf you, and I'm trying to avoid putting any nerfs in the list.

 

This would be a nerf and should be excluded.

[thenewzero]

Just wanted to say thanks for this compilation. Great thread. Needs to be stickied. Hopefully I can make an actual comment later. >_>

[bobudo]

One additional thing has occurred to me:

 

Regarding Operative/Scoundrel (duh!):

 

• Fix/Adjust End-Game Itemization to more properly reflect our strengths as a healer
  
• Secondary Stats should be: +Power & +Crit Chance
• Current focus on Alacrity underwhelming given current function of alacrity vs. energy regeneration, and that it effects only 2 of our abilities.
  
  

 

The following is merely discussion regarding the following items and should not be added to the list:

 

Add a skill to a tree, accessible by healers, to increase total allowed UH/TA charges.

 

I must disagree. Having only two UH/TA charges is challenging, but I feel that allowing additional charges would be overpowering. Being able to instacast 3 Surgical Probes without the target being under 30% would earn us the ire of the PvPers (and we've all seen what nerfs they can bring to bear).

 

Allow CC to be refreshed in combat. Perhaps change the "Sedatives" skill to allow CC refresh in combat.

 

I would recommend that the changes remove the stealth and out-of-combat requirements (read why below).

 

I agree that we need an out-of-combat CC; however that change alone would not fix the issue as it would still require very close proximity and stealth. Without removing the stealth requirement, it could only be refreshed once every 2 minutes (as we don't have access to the talents which reduce the combat stealth cooldown). Furthermore the close proximity requirement would serve to increase the likelihood of being knocked out of stealth by an AoE effect, further limiting our ability to refresh.

 

Improve Kolto Pack/Kolto Infusion:

1. Have a talent that allows it to heal 1/2 additional allies within 10 meters for 50/100% of amount healed.
   
   
2. Make it require UH/TA, but not consume it.
   
   
3. Reduce the cost with Medical Therapy skill, at 2.5/5 Energy for 1/2 of the skill.
   
   

 

1. This is an interesting idea. My initial reaction to it is negative, however the more I think about it the more I would like an opportunity to test it.
   
   
2. This is a good idea - while the ability would still be boring, it would capitalize on our UH/TA system and provide an additional means of reducing energy expenditure. That said, I would personally prefer to see additional mechanics added to the skill, rather than making it a trade-off between using our "main" heal.
   
   
3. This would fail to make the ability useful enough (i.e. I wouldn't put it back on my bars); ok, I lied, I would use it, but I would be upset about using it, given that it would still fail to diversify our toolset.
   
   

 

In my opinion, Kolto Pack/Kolto Infusion requires an interesting and diversifying mechanic to justify its existence: A shorter, slightly less costly direct heal for the same amount as Underworld Medicine/Kolto Injection just isn't enough in my opinion.

 

[*]Improve Recuperative Nanotech/Kolto Cloud

 

Mandatory

Changes:

1. Remove the target limit while keeping the range limit

 

Just cannot stress that enough.

 

Improve Surgical Probe / Emergency Medpac

• Add a small radius splash heal for 33% of the effect, striking 3 allies closest to the target, while healing the target for 100%. Provides light, direct AoE while RN/KC is ticking.
  
  

 

This would be an interesting mechanic, but still wouldn't solve the AoE healing problem.

[Fluhi]

Fluhi, I added in every non-repeat from your post, except two which I thought might warrant discussion first.

 

 

 

Considering Accomplished Doctor does not apply to Surgical Probe, a second cast heals for more than your crits ever likely will (Surge % from rating is capped at 50% + 50% base rate + 0% from skills and buffs = 100% max, which would need huge amounts of surge). True it costs a GCD to fire off that free one, but it hits harder, both have a change to crit, and if incoming damage keeps the tank below 30% after that GCD, you can fire off a third.

 

I will add it in if you want, as I say it is a compilation not a list of "endorsed" ideas, but I wanted to at least point out how it looks to me, a Commando, like it might actually nerf you, and I'm trying to avoid putting any nerfs in the list.

 

 

 

I just have no idea what you are asking for with this one. Do you want diag. scan to be 4.5s or 1.5? what cooldown is it syncing with? Is it still channeled, or do you mean to make it instant but increase the HoT duration?

 

The 100% crit would make Surgical Probe a far more reliable to help try and save someone. I know how great that 30% refresh can be but it is very sporadic on if it will actually save anyone when it doesn't heal for much without a crit. AT least with the crit you know you will get a decent heal out of it every time, combined with it splash healing from other changes and the increased incoming TA generation from RN to help offset the lost of 30% spammability. Also with the changes of Infusion costing less and not eating TA with it's fast cast time you should hopefully not need to spam surgical probe to keep someone alive or get them out of a hole, you need something more reliable to give you time for a better heal. A 1.2kish heal won't save anyone in the long run if you couldn't keep them above 30% in the first place.

 

The duration change on Diag scan was in combination with the skill change. This made it so for non heal spec operatives Diag Scan only lasted 3 seconds, for a heal spec they could increase the Heal over time of Diag Scan to 6 seconds the same as the new cooldown on it thus giving them 6 seconds of 2 energy crit returns. All together the changes would make Diag Scan a 6 second heal over time with a 6 second cooldown that on a crit would return 2 energy. Compared to a 3 second channeled heal over time for same energy currently.

 

All the changes I did was in relation to each other to create a better synergy in the tree and increase the usefulness of some of the harder or less used skills. Infusion should be our main heal with a 4 piece set but currently because of energy cost and the consumtion of TA proc it is almost never used. Diag Scan being a channeled doesnt' help you get energy back if you can never fire and forget it because your to busy healing all the time for heals that matter. Surgical probe gets change to help in the AE healing department while being unique and granting a guaranteed bigger heal when they are low. KP loses the need to double stack but loses some efficency of refreshing the stack.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Fluhi

[RuQu]

One additional thing has occurred to me:

 

Regarding Operative/Scoundrel (duh!):

 

• Fix/Adjust End-Game Itemization to more properly reflect our strengths as a healer
  
• Secondary Stats should be: +Power & +Crit Chance
• Current focus on Alacrity underwhelming given current function of alacrity vs. energy regeneration, and that it effects only 2 of our abilities.
  
  

 

This is a problem for all of us, and I have it filed under General.

 

I would recommend that the changes remove the stealth and out-of-combat requirements (read why below).

 

I would hope that would be obvious to the Devs. Currently there are a lot of items on the list, trying to keep them short where I can.

 

*on a splash healing mechanic applying to Kolto Infusion / Kolto Pack or SP/EMP*

 

If you require that it only splashes when RN/KC HoT is present, it introduces a new mechanic; adds synergy between KC (to apply the HoT), Kolto Pack or EMP (to apply the splash) and UWM (to supply the UH needed to cast KoP or EMP); and allows burst AoE healing.

 

Currently, the Sage AoE (widely viewed as OP) has a 2s cast time and drains 16.6-20% of their total Force (depending on if they have 500 or 600 from skills). In contrast, Scoundrel/Commando AoE is instant, and much cheaper. Considering that fact, I'd suggest adding the splash to Kolto Pack/Infusion. This would allow your current, weaker AoE to still be instant, but allow you to do burst AoE on a cast time to maintain balance. Scoundrel/Operative would then also have the best burst-AoE healing, as there is no benefit to a Sage stacking the spell twice because the HoT does not stack. Sage might heal more people, and a single cast might heal for more, and Commando might be better at MT healing, but an Agent could keep 4 people near each other alive through huge AoE spikes.

[Paladinian]

]Secondary Stats should be: +Power & +Crit Chance [*] Current focus on Alacrity underwhelming given current function of alacrity vs. energy regeneration, and that it effects only 2 of our abilities.

 

Alarcity wouldn't even be too bad for us if it affected the global cool-down. Considering the number of instant cast spells we have where the rate-limiting step is the GCD, alarcity speeding that up would make it somewhat more beneficial alongside Crit, Surge, and Power.

 

 

Back to the list in general, here's a few more shrimp to throw on the barbie.

 

Smuggler / Op

(Sorry for using Smuggler names only here, I'm less familiar with the Op equivalents)

- Make the 'Smuggle' ability usable in combat as a party-wide Disappearing Act. Lengthen the cool-down if necessary. This change could let us save a party from a bad PVE pull, and would increase the overall desirability of the class in groups. (Granted this isn't Healer-specific, but the pull-rescue tends to be a healer call to make)

 

- When charges of Upper Hand / TA or Slow Release Medpack expire, decrement the stack by one and resume the count-down instead of clearing the whole collection.

 

Aesthetics:

- Suggestion for Underworld Medicine "flashier animation": the scoundrel loads a kolto injector round in the scatter gun which is then fired at the target. I think it'd work, though I understand if others think it'd be a touch too silly.

[RuQu]

The 100% crit would make Surgical Probe a far more reliable to help try and save someone. I know how great that 30% refresh can be but it is very sporadic on if it will actually save anyone when it doesn't heal for much without a crit. AT least with the crit you know you will get a decent heal out of it every time, combined with it splash healing from other changes and the increased incoming TA generation from RN to help offset the lost of 30% spammability. Also with the changes of Infusion costing less and not eating TA with it's fast cast time you should hopefully not need to spam surgical probe to keep someone alive or get them out of a hole, you need something more reliable to give you time for a better heal. A 1.2kish heal won't save anyone in the long run if you couldn't keep them above 30% in the first place.

 

The duration change on Diag scan was in combination with the skill change. This made it so for non heal spec operatives Diag Scan only lasted 3 seconds, for a heal spec they could increase the Heal over time of Diag Scan to 6 seconds the same as the new cooldown on it thus giving them 6 seconds of 2 energy crit returns. All together the changes would make Diag Scan a 6 second heal over time with a 6 second cooldown that on a crit would return 2 energy. Compared to a 3 second channeled heal over time for same energy currently.

 

All the changes I did was in relation to each other to create a better synergy in the tree and increase the usefulness of some of the harder or less used skills. Infusion should be our main heal with a 4 piece set but currently because of energy cost and the consumtion of TA proc it is almost never used. Diag Scan being a channeled doesnt' help you get energy back if you can never fire and forget it because your to busy healing all the time for heals that matter. Surgical probe gets change to help in the AE healing department while being unique and granting a guaranteed bigger heal when they are low. KP loses the need to double stack but loses some efficency of refreshing the stack.

 

So far we have had little to no feedback from the Developers (none that I'm aware of, but leaving the benefit of the doubt there), and, again as far as I know, zero about any intention to make changes to the healing classes. I think we will have a lot more success suggesting individual ability changes rather than ability change packages which only work if all of them are taken together. That starts to become a class overhaul. I'm not saying that Scoundrel/Agent healing doesn't need an overhaul, but I just think it is far less likely to happen than to see tweaks to one or two abilities. I think most of your individual suggestions are in there in some form (ie, convert DS to an instant that applies a HoT, splash healing) with the exception of the 30% SP change, which looks like it would be a nerf unless they implemented all of your suggested changes at once, which almost certainly won't happen.

 

If you aren't content with the current Scoundrel list, or don't think those changes will bring the class to where it needs to be, and still want me to put in your package as an "All or None" combo of changes, please list all of them together in one post, in as short of bullets as you can.

[RuQu]

Aesthetics:

- Suggestion for Underworld Medicine "flashier animation": the scoundrel loads a kolto injector round in the scatter gun which is then fired at the target. I think it'd work, though I understand if others think it'd be a touch too silly.

 

I like it. I went with:

Load a Kolto Injection Round into the Scattergun, flip it around and fire it with a flourish.

 

Slight rewording, but I see it as very in fitting with the Scoundrel style, flipping that sawed-off around with style.

[Donnadarco]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladinian

Aesthetics:

- Suggestion for Underworld Medicine "flashier animation": the scoundrel loads a kolto injector round in the scatter gun which is then fired at the target. I think it'd work, though I understand if others think it'd be a touch too silly.

I like it. I went with:

Quote:

Load a Kolto Injection Round into the Scattergun, flip it around and fire it with a flourish.

Slight rewording, but I see it as very in fitting with the Scoundrel style, flipping that sawed-off around with style.

 

Yes Great ideas i see. I love the "Flechette-round" animation.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Donnadarco

[RuQu]

Yes Great ideas i see. I love the "Flechette-round" animation.

 

Sadly I haven't seen it. My Scoundrel is 12 and my Gunslinger 15.

 

I think I'm leveling a healing Operative next to get a better feel for their issues. Haven't had time to play in 3 days, between work, exercise, and trying to model Alacrity.

[hrelas]

Just chiming in to add my voice to the crowd who want Scoundrel/Operative healing to see some love. The suggestions are, to be honest, all great.

[bobudo]

If you require that it only splashes when RN/KC HoT is present, it introduces a new mechanic; adds synergy between KC (to apply the HoT), Kolto Pack or EMP (to apply the splash) and UWM (to supply the UH needed to cast KoP or EMP); and allows burst AoE healing.

 

Agreed, it would be a neat mechanic, but the target limit would continue to gimp Scoundrel/Operative healers in the AoE department.

Currently, the Sage AoE (widely viewed as OP) has a 2s cast time and drains 16.6-20% of their total Force (depending on if they have 500 or 600 from skills). In contrast, Scoundrel/Commando AoE is instant, and much cheaper.

 

Not so regarding the Scoundrel/Operative: Kolto Cloud/Recuperative Nanotech costs 30 energy (26 with the 2-piece PvE set bonus *scoff*) or 30%(26%) of the healers total energy - however, given the regen mechanic, if the healer stays above 50 energy when casting, the recovery time would be functionally similar (that's all estimath, real numbers might prove it right/wrong +-10 or so).

 

Considering that fact, I'd suggest adding the splash to Kolto Pack/Infusion. This would allow your current, weaker AoE to still be instant, but allow you to do burst AoE on a cast time to maintain balance. Scoundrel/Operative would then also have the best burst-AoE healing, as there is no benefit to a Sage stacking the spell twice because the HoT does not stack. Sage might heal more people, and a single cast might heal for more, and Commando might be better at MT healing, but an Agent could keep 4 people near each other alive through huge AoE spikes.

 

First, I point you to this post:

He complains about stacking people up for the AoE, but as I pointed out before, because of the obvious spell animation people will actually flock to it even if you cast it randomly. I can (and have) repositioned entire operations by casting Revivification where I wanted people to stand. Snipers will leave cover and move into it. Melees will back to the very edge of the hit box of a boss, straining to get within the radius. Tanks have put the boss in the middle of the circle so they can share the benefit with DPS. The little purple circle on the ground is like a black hole that sucks my operation in. I'm fairly certain I could kill them all if I just cast it in lava or something.

 

Likewise in PvP, if your team is even remotely intelligent they will find a way to get into the pool. Whether it's pulling the enemy in or just taking the time to heal and then going back to DPS, because it does so much healing it is largely worth the minor sacrifices.

 

Let's look at the difference in the AoEs in the numbers (I'm working from tooltips, thus these numbers are deflated from their in-game amounts as they do not account for talents and gear that would improve them - however, any such improvement would likely scale between the classes. I cannot correct this issue on my own as I do not have access to a equally geared end-game Sorcerer/Sage; should I find a way to correct this deflation I will update):

 

The Sage/Sorcerer AoE heals for 1958 HP over 10s (195.8 HPS) to unlimited targets, giving it a max healing potential of 7832 with 4-man; 15,664 with 8-man; 31,328 with 16-man.

 

The Scoundrel/Operative AoE heals for 910 HP over 10s (60.67 HPS) to 4 targets max, giving it a max healing potential of 3640. (The tooltip on my Operative suggests that this scales to ~1800HP in a mixture of T1-T3 PvE gear).

 

This means that 1-to-1, the Scoundrel/Operative AoE is only 31% effective as the Sage/Sorcerer AoE. Given functionally similar costs, the mobility of the Scoundrel/Operative heal hardly makes up for such a drastic decrease in healing efficacy.

 

That doesn't even address the fact that the Sage/Sorcerer AoE is the only spell that can keep the party alive through most of Operations content.

 

Honestly, I didn't know the numbers were that bad; spelled out for me like that, it hardly seems appropriate to call the Scoundrel/Operative heal and AoE, it's a poor HoT that can be applied to multiple targets. The amount of healing it does, over such a long time, makes it worthless for anything other than topping off a small group taking minimal raid damage.

 

That's why adding a target-limited splash mechanic to another heal wouldn't help either. Currently, my Kolto Infusion claims to heal for ~2,100 HP (db.darthhater tooltip suggests 1119HP healed; this is roughly in line with my observation that my gear has increased my healing by ~ 2x). A 33% splash mechanic would mean that I could heal 3 additional targets for 693HP. If Kolto Infusion remained linked to the consumption of a UH/TA charge, I would be able to reliably cast this twice, giving a max healing AoE potential of 1386/target over 3 seconds (462 HPS).

 

That sounds nice in theory, however in an Operation I still would have failed to heal half of the 8-man group, or 3/4 of the 16-man; or due to the lack of smart-targeting, I would have healed some combination of the group for significantly less than I need to.

 

Also, don't forget, these estimates are based on me being geared - I have to imagine that the Sage/Sorcerer AoE scales in a similar fashion to my AoE (2x efficacy from ungeared)(anecdotally I am aware of the Sorcerer AoE healing for ~ 4k - 5k on the Soa platforms).

 

That means (based on very rough estimates) the splash heal effect would heal mechanic would still leave me healing only healing (at most) half group for 1/3 as much the Sage/Sorcerer.

 

Thus, the splash mechanic fails to address the problem of a Sage/Sorcerer being required for Operations content; and the issue of Scoundrel/Operative non-viability in AoE/Group healing.

 

For these reasons, I cannot endorse such an idea.

Edited February 9, 2012 by bobudo

[bobudo]

All the changes I did was in relation to each other to create a better synergy in the tree and increase the usefulness of some of the harder or less used skills. Infusion should be our main heal with a 4 piece set but currently because of energy cost and the consumtion of TA proc it is almost never used. Diag Scan being a channeled doesnt' help you get energy back if you can never fire and forget it because your to busy healing all the time for heals that matter. Surgical probe gets change to help in the AE healing department while being unique and granting a guaranteed bigger heal when they are low. KP loses the need to double stack but loses some efficency of refreshing the stack.

 

Let's leave it at I respectfully disagree with all of this and it is apparent that you and I have different design paradigms for Operative/Scoundrel healing.

 

That's why we need, more than anything else a clear and coherent dev statement on the direction of the class going forward, because it sounds like if I was the dev in charge you would reroll, and if you were the dev in charge I would.

[Paladinian]

Not so regarding the Scoundrel/Operative: Kolto Cloud/Recuperative Nanotech costs 30 energy (26 with the 2-piece PvE set bonus *scoff*)

 

Scoff all you want, but since I got the set bonus I find Kolto Cloud *substantially* more viable.

 

Don't get me wrong, it still isn't *good*, and to be useful in Operations it still desperately needs either the target cap or cool-down removed... but that one saved second of energy regeneration feels huge when the fur is flying.

[RuQu]

*Dev post states Salvation only heals up to 8 players, so numbers were adjusted*

 

Now, obviously, I was in no way arguing that Sage AoE is not awesome. I do think when considering how to boost the other two classes AoE, we need to keep the costs and limits of it under consideration.

 

I was going to try and argue in favor of the splash mechanic (because it seems cool to me), but I figured we should probably bring our friend Math to the table and get his opinion, before I started requiring increased energy expenditure and GCD usage to make Scoundrel/Commando AoE compete with Sage.

 

Let's make sure we all agree on the details of the abilities:

 

Sage:

Salvation

Cost 100 Force (out of 500/600 max)

Cooldown 15s

Cast Time 2s

Radius: 8m

Player Limit (no limit)

HoT (10s, 1s tick rate)

Average Base Heal: 134.615

Coefficient: 0.376

 

Commando:

Kolto Bomb

Cost 2 Ammo (out of 12, max regen zone is 8-12)

Cooldown 6s

Cast Time Instant

Radius 8m

Player Limit 3

Initial Heal, applies 5% healing buff (15s). During SCC, applies 10% DR Shield (15s)

Average Base Heal: 382.59

Coefficient: 1.08

 

Scoundrel:

Kolto Cloud

Cost 30 Energy (out of 100, max regen zone is 60-100)

Cooldown 12s

Cast Time Instant

Radius 10m

Player Limit 4

HoT only (15s, 3s tick rate)

Average Base Heal 132.032

Coefficient 0.386

 

The coefficients are multiplied by your Bonus Healing, which, assuming that is equal between classes in given gear, gives a sense of how well they scale. Coefficients on HoTs are always small, you need to multiply them by the number of ticks to compare to a non-HoT.

 

For the sake of comparison, let's look at a 15 second window. KC and Salv have 12 second cooldowns, so they can be cast a second time at t=12, but KC won't be because it lasts 15s and doesn't stack. Salv will be, but only the first 3 ticks of the second heal will be considered. KB will be tossed 3 times, at t=0, t=6, and t=12. At each time we will examine a case of 3 , 4, 8, 16 players. I currently have ~410 Bonus Healing, so that is the number I will use.

 

First, lets compare costs. Salv and KB both cost 16.6% of max resources, compared to 30% for KC. The more forgiving regen of Commandos probably renders the EC of KB to be slightly cheaper than Salv.

 

KB and KC are both instant, therefore take 1.5s fixed time to cast, and can be cast on the run. Salv is 2s, but with the levels of Alacrity on this tier of gear that is easily down to around 1.6s, although still requires them to stand still.

 

So far we have seen that Commandos have the most limited AoE, Scoundrels have the most expensive, and Sages must stand still for 1.6-2 seconds. What are the returns for these tradeoffs?

 

Salvation: Average Heal per person per tick = 134.615 + 0.376*410 = 288.775

Kolto Bomb: Average Heal per person = 382.59 +1.08*410 = 825.39 (866.66 on casts 2 and 3)

Kolto Cloud: Average Heal per person per tick = 132.032 + 0.386*410 = 290.292

 

Over 15 seconds:

3 Players / 4 Players / 8 Players

KB: 7676.13 / 10234.84* /-------------

KC: 4354.38 / 5805.84 / ------------

Salv: 12994.88 / 17326.5 / 34653 /

 

Now, this 15s time window is not necessarily fair to the Sage, because it requires a second cast that gets clipped. We can look at it different ways. Compare a single cast:

 

3 Players / 4 Players / 8 Players / 16 Players

KB (cost 16%): 2476.17 / 3301.56* /-------------

KC (cost 30%): 4354.38 / 5805.84 / -------------

Sa (cost 16%): 8663.25 / 11551 / 23102

 

Since those are very different time windows (1 cast,instantly applied, 15s HoT, 10s HoT) we can look at a fight window where, over some period, 30s of total AoE healing are needed. That is exactly 5 KB, 2 KC, or 3 Salv.

 

3 Players / 4 Players / 8 Players / 16 Players

KB : 12380.85 / 16507.8* /-------------

KC : 8708.76 / 11611.68 / -------------

Sa : 25989.75 / 34653 / 69306

 

*assuming Patch 1.2 takes us to 4 players with no coefficient change.

 

For nearly double the resource cost, Scoundrels have to hit all 4 targets to heal for the same amount as Troopers heal 3 targets, which also means the Troopers 3 players will be at higher health percentages (although that 4th guy is screwed). In a vacuum that trade-off would seem fair, if they were the same price. one more target for less healing per target is a debate where both sides might envy the other, and if that's not how we define balance in an MMO, I don't know what is.

 

However, this comparison is not existing in a vacuum, and there is another party present, with the same resource cost and nearly the same cast time as the Commando....the Sage. The price that the Sage pays is not being able to move while casting the AoE, for 1.6-2s depending on Alacrity values. The return on investment for that lack of mobility: they heal 3 targets for double what a Commando can do, 4 targets for 3 times what a Scoundrel can do, and they can go on to do an amazing 2310HPS if 8 (out of 8-16) people in an Op all group up for AoE, compared to a max AoE HPS of 412 (550@4 players post 1.2) for a Commando and 387.056 for a Scoundrel.

 

This is the power of a lack of Player Limits, and many encounters are balanced around having this much AoE capability. With the limits in place, there is simply no way a Commando or Scoundrel can match that power. This is not a call to nerf Sages. Fights are designed assuming an Ops group has this capability. Raise the others up so they can compete. Reduce KC cost to 15 Energy, and remove player limits from KC and KB.

Edited February 19, 2012 by RuQu

[bobudo]

I'll post a real response, but my batt is dying and I wanted to say 3 things:

 

1) I love you and your math, thank you for fixing up the numbers I was talking about, and a fantastic write up.

 

2) We are in full agreement with the mechanics you just discussed, the numbers, etc. I quibble slightly with saying that the "stand and cast" bit is a significant trade-off, but there's no reason to discuss that because we can all acknowledge that the trade-off does not balance the issue. (I also agree with the no nerf statement, that would only be counter-production and not fix anything)

 

3) The question thus is how do we move forward for Trooper/BH and Scoundrel/Operative. My response is that the only fix that can balance things out is uncapped AoE healing. Maybe it's weaker because it's instant, or whatever trade-offs are involved, fine - I'm asking for parity, not cloning. But keeping the caps on non-Sorc/Sage AoE healing ability will continue to severely limit those classes to back-seat roles.

[Donnadarco]

Just a blast to see the number crunch. A Big thanx for doing the math, RuQu.

 

The messege is clear. The scaling of healer AOE in Operations is wastly inbalanced. Now lets hope their will be proper adjustments to bring healers up to Par, from 4-man up to 16-man encounters.

[RuQu]

I'll post a real response, but my batt is dying and I wanted to say 3 things:

 

1) I love you and your math, thank you for fixing up the numbers I was talking about, and a fantastic write up.

 

2) We are in full agreement with the mechanics you just discussed, the numbers, etc. I quibble slightly with saying that the "stand and cast" bit is a significant trade-off, but there's no reason to discuss that because we can all acknowledge that the trade-off does not balance the issue. (I also agree with the no nerf statement, that would only be counter-production and not fix anything)

 

3) The question thus is how do we move forward for Trooper/BH and Scoundrel/Operative. My response is that the only fix that can balance things out is uncapped AoE healing. Maybe it's weaker because it's instant, or whatever trade-offs are involved, fine - I'm asking for parity, not cloning. But keeping the caps on non-Sorc/Sage AoE healing ability will continue to severely limit those classes to back-seat roles.

 

Once you remove the caps, we all scale properly in groups/Operations.

 

Once you eliminate the HUGE imbalance the caps introduce, then the argument comes down to how you balance mobility, interruptability, HoT duration, KBs buffs, and the intended class strengths (ie does being the best MT healer mean a 15% reduction in AoE throughput? 20% the current 50% vs 3 players or the current 90% penalty we see when our 3 player limit is compared to their 16?)

 

Those balance questions can't even start to be addressed while facing a 3:16 player healed disparity in AoE capability. Even if we say I toss out 2 KBs since my cooldown is half as long, I can heal 6/16 players (max, no smart healing to ensure it) but the total amount healed is 1/8 of what a Sage does.

 

If you remove the caps, the 2:1 Sage:Commando healing of 3 people would apply at 16 as well. Is the 5% healing buff, 10% DR shield, and mobility worth 50%? Perhaps. Perhaps we should do 65%, perhaps 45%. Once you remove those caps, you can tune the numbers.

Edited February 9, 2012 by RuQu

[Donnadarco]

who can make it a sticky ?

[Milco]

...

Let's make sure we all agree on the details of the abilities:

...

While Salvation/Revivification does not state a target limit in the tooltip, I believe it is actually 8 targets. That seemed be the number of people I was healing during some Ilum PvP, even though there were ~20 targets within the radius.

It is still a really, really good AoE spell, but not *infinitely* powerful as such.

[RuQu]

While Salvation/Revivification does not state a target limit in the tooltip, I believe it is actually 8 targets. That seemed be the number of people I was healing during some Ilum PvP, even though there were ~20 targets within the radius.

It is still a really, really good AoE spell, but not *infinitely* powerful as such.

 

Interesting. I'd be curious to hear from sages healing 16 man Ops. That still leaves it at 10 times better than KB for a single cast, or 5 times if KB is used twice (2 casts possible in 12 second Salv cooldown, but then the KB costs twice as much for 20% of the healing).

 

Of course, we are also a bit off topic. This is supposed to be about suggestions healers would like to see implemented to improve the state of healing in general and the healer classes in particular. I think we can all (or almost all) agree "buff Commando/Scoundrel AoE" belongs on that list.

[bobudo]

I was going to try and argue in favor of the splash mechanic (because it seems cool to me)

 

Without a target limit the splash mechanic would be very cool. I was more railing against the continued inclusion of target limits.

[Paladinian]

Still no healer love in the latest PTS patch notes, and no sticky status to this thread yet, but let's hope, eh?

 

Anywho, some more thoughts:

 

Scoundrel / Op:

- It is my understanding that the Operative tree skill of Medical Therapy still doesn't work. I haven't confirmed this directly, and supposedly the Scoundrel equivalent *does* work. It goes without saying that they should fix this.

 

User Interface:

- Related to letting party / raid members be hot-keyed, a hot key to select the party member last injured or most injured would be helpful.

- A Social / Gameplay tab option that enables receiving an echo of party member's "target not in range" or "can't see target" error message when you were the target. (Namely, when the healer gets a "target not in range" message, the target optionally sees "$Name can't reach you", or some-such.) Not a huge priority, but could save on some Ventrilo pressure.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Paladinian

[psymunn]

It is an awful shame that there is no 'sticky' option when flagging a thread. only infractions are noteworthy ;_; Apparently support abilities aren't supported on the forums. Only offensive abilities. This meta-healing imbalance needs to change.

 

also, ruqu: PM me if you have any C++ questions. I'll try get back to you ASAP

Edited February 10, 2012 by psymunn