The MMO genre needs to stop looking backwards.

[AJediKnight]

It's a long post. Don't read it if you don't want to.

 

---

 

The hybrid, and even the hybrid that leans sandbox, really is the direction that MMOs should be headed in, as much as it might make a vocal minority scream in fury. What we're seeing in TOR is the net result of collective burnout with these games. The theme park has become so predictable in nature that you can take MMO player X and insert him into theme park Y, and within minutes he has not only mastered the basics, but is (if he hasn't taken to the forums to moan about the predictably dry nature of the starting zone) racing headlong towards the completely hollow endgame.

 

If I were designing an MMO from the ground up today, I'd be looking at a couple of things:

 

1) The trinity system isn't a realistic representation of combat. I'm not saying that everything should be a twitch system. However, if we were to envision a genuine approach to going out and fighting, say, a dragon, you're probably not lining up one or two huge, slow guys in plate armor to shout obscenities at the beast while 18 other people poke it in the behind with sticks and spells. Can you imagine this working in real life? Can you imagine the dragon not immediately turning around and gobbling up half the raid, saving the 'tough nut' warriors for the end? A real-life pack of wolves might not be sentient on the level of humans, but they know to prey on the weak and the young -- they always always ALWAYS pick the soft target. It's difficult to stomach the idea that a dragon wouldn't have a similar basic understanding of the nature of the world.

 

Real-life (and believable fantasy) combat relies on two mechanics -- avoidance, and mitigation, and the latter can only take you so far when that dragon lowers its forearm to crush you. Ergo, a bigger reliance on dodging and movement is needed. Additionally, all members of a group should be required to be more self-reliant about their own survival -- the age of the dedicated healer, whose sole job is to stand behind the lines showering players with mystical white light -- needs to come to a close. Not only do healers remain a woefully underplayed class in every theme park MMO, they a) lack believability, and b) lack an epic feel for a majority of gamers. Personally, I look at MMO healers as cads who would rather stare at a series of bars all game than actually swing their sword, and I am hardly alone in this. I would never play one, and that's never going to change.

 

2) The rise of social media has made gaming far more popular than it ever was before, but not all gaming appeals to all people. The thing about MMOs is that their original intent was to allow gamers to live their story in fantastic environs. But not everyone's story need revolve around combat -- a lot of people might get their kicks out of homesteading, farming, milling, weaving, serving as a castle steward, a politician, etc.

 

The problem with themepark games is there really is only one avenue to power, and it involves slugging it out in combat, either with players or PCs. In this sense, the 'promise' of the genre has been betrayed, and folded into a single, generalized mechanic -- kill or quit. When I look at the rampant success of social games that involve no combat -- titles like The Sims and Farmville and Minecraft -- I see a vast, untapped resource of potential MMOers who might pay $15 a month to own, say, a tavern, or an inn, or work as a famous musician. And if you did a good enough job integrating all these working parts into a system where they were all required for a faction to prevail in warfare, then I really think you'd be talking about the game that would be the 'next WoW.'

 

3) Finally, there is a lack of personal investment and personal loss in game worlds that is draining the life out of the genre. An example of personal investment could be anything: from a house that you own in a town, to a small fort that you and a few friends defend, to a starship crewed by an entire guild.

 

Let's look at WoW: when you go into an Alterac Valley and you lose after 25 minutes, what happens? Are the Frostwolves finally driven from Alterac once and for all? Are the resources of the valley now directed to the benefit of the Alliance? Does anyone even give a damn who wins or loses? The thing about instanced everything; about a game world that neither rewards nor punishes for victory and defeat, is that you wind up with a lot of people who don't really give a crap what happens anywhere.

 

In SWG, players could build towns, fortresses, etc. And if those bases -- which you had worked hundreds of hours to earn -- were destroyed by the enemy, they were gone. You'd have to go farm up another one. Now, the 'modern MMOer' might find such a concept ludicrous, but, if done correctly, loss can actually spurn an increased sense of investment in the gameworld. If my little fort gets torched, I am a) going to defend the hell out of my next one, and b) want to get revenge on the people who did it. When you lose a WZ, do you really sit around brooding about the fact that the Imperial transport on Alderaan got shot down? Do you mourn the deaths of the hundred or so invisible NPCs who manned that ship? Of course not. You don't care, and the game doesn't even want you to care.

 

In our fictional MMO, let's say you and your guild stumble onto a narrow valley, surrounded on three sides by high mountains, and fed by a fast-flowing river. There is land to till, and space enough for several villages. You set about ordering the land immediately, but as your investment in the region grows, you begin to worry increasingly about jealous outsiders who would raid or conquer your budding kingdom. You build a series of outlying forts to warn of oncoming armies, and then construct a mighty citadel in an easily-defensible high spot. It has taken a lot to accomplish all this, and maybe, one day, you'll lose it all. But you'd fight like hell to prevent that from happening.

 

Would you fight like hell to avoid queuing up for Boarding Party for the thousandth time? I think not.

 

---

 

And there you have it. I don't believe sandbox MMOs are the future -- people require a degree of structure. There will always be a large crowd of folks who like to raid, and like mindless PvP, and don't derive any enjoyment out of the non-combat elements that the genre could offer. But as a game designer, I would be looking to incorporate all crowds, and I think there's room enough in these games to please everyone.

 

The problem is that the investors behind these $100 million dollar goliaths are only concerned with the bottom line, and as they see it, 'if Blizzard did it, so can we.' The problem is, 'Blizzard did it' 7 years ago, and even if the genre hasn't moved on, people have. People have learned to burn through content far faster than it can be released; people have learned to race to the level cap, only to find that the bulk of the game's resources have been squandered on what will wind up being (if a player sticks with a main) the shortest portion of the content. It is a system that cannot endure forever -- it should only take one $100 million dollar MMO flop to call the system into question, yet in the past 5 years, we've seen game after game tank when the 'tried and true' method failed to prove lasting.

 

The first major company to realize this, and to design a game that lets go of so many of these dusty old habits and design a quality, hybrid product, is going to make WoW -- even at its apex -- look like a complete joke.

Edited February 7, 2012 by AJediKnight

[StealthStalker]

I'll take some Dual Targeting while you're at it.

[Cerber]

We all dream of that, and maybe even the Designers of the SWTOR dreamt that, but behind those designers are people that pay for development. People that saw the success model and they wanna copy and get rich. Greedy Bussinesmen who make pie charts about investment and profit. Cut the work to minimum, make the maximum profit.

 

I always come back to my ideea.. to make a site similar to Wiki where people can come and add their vision to a huge MMO Game Design document. Vote on different features and let the different future developers / investors what this US/EU community want.

[marshalleck]

I'd have to agree with OP's basic premise. If Minecraft's surprising rampant success doesn't tell the AAA dinosaurs something about how they're doing business, well, they just aren't paying attention.

 

There's a whole horde of people (to the tune of millions) interested in online multiplayer consisting of minimal or no combat.

Edited February 7, 2012 by marshalleck

[AJediKnight]

I'd have to agree with OP's basic premise. If Minecraft's surprising rampant success doesn't tell the AAA dinosaurs something about how they're doing business, well, they just aren't paying attention.

 

I totally forgot to mention minecraft XD *scurries to edit OP.*

[Drainedsoul]

I'll take some Dual Targeting while you're at it.

 

Isn't that "focus" or am I missing something?

 

With regards to the "trinity":

 

Can you realistically imagine many creatures surviving one hit, let alone 10 minutes worth, especially with a lightsaber or a laser rifle?

 

MMO/RPG combat isn't really supposed to represent real life combat.

[StealthStalker]

Isn't that "focus" or am I missing something?

 

With regards to the "trinity":

 

Can you realistically imagine many creatures surviving one hit, let alone 10 minutes worth, especially with a lightsaber or a laser rifle?

 

MMO/RPG combat isn't really supposed to represent real life combat.

 

Feel free to read my thread, it explains why it's different.

 

Dual Targeting

[Animar]

Couldn't agree more with the OP.

 

I've played mmo's since UO several years ago, and burnt out i am by todays games, I've already cancelled my sub for ToR, 12 days left and just don't feel the need to log in for anything, my lvl 50 marauder, or other toons i made and pvped with etc. It's just the same old tosh churned out.

 

Sandbox is great, and while a little driven story content is great, giving the power to players to create their own communities in game is priceless, I read your post and it makes me a little sad inside to wonder if such a game will ever come about again like SWG did at the start, PRE-CU it was the best, imo not even wow came close to enjoyment factor.

 

Sadly ToR won't either.

[AJediKnight]

Isn't that "focus" or am I missing something?

 

With regards to the "trinity":

 

Can you realistically imagine many creatures surviving one hit, let alone 10 minutes worth, especially with a lightsaber or a laser rifle?

 

MMO/RPG combat isn't really supposed to represent real life combat.

 

Maybe that's a signal for the genre to change?

 

Real life soldiers generally don't survive multiple bullet wounds, but that doesn't stop people from fighting wars. Somehow, 'the system' finds a way to work around the feeble limitations of mortal man.

 

I'm not saying that MMOs should feature one-shot KO mechanics, but we can do better than this. A 'hard fight' shouldn't be governed by the ability of 15 or so people to repeat 4 mechanics 20 times over the course of 10 minutes. A 'hard fight' should be a battle that actually taxes the dynamic ability of a player to evolve to the circumstances. Boss coming right at me? Maybe I use the force to pull a destructable pillar down on its head. Or maybe not, since in a theme park I'm running around panic stricken until the tank regains aggro.

[racsofp]

That was an excellent post. A lot of us would love a game like that. There's just not enough of us I don't think.

 

I'm starting to think it's like the next Sim City...SC4 came out in 2003 and that was the end of the genre. Too much work making a new city builder that involved some effort. They're complicated, they're complex and a lot more people would rather just buy new hairdos for their sims and vacuum their imaginary house. Not complex, not involved, not a lot of effort compared to a full blown city sim.

 

Anyways, I'm having fun with SWTOR now, but I don't know if it's a game I'll play for years.

 

A game like you descrbed, though...well...I would like to think I would play a game like that for a long time.

[Frostvein]

The problem with the whole "Building and perhaps losing" idea is that if the game exists in realtime, I am not going to be able to help defend my little town for more then a few hours a day if that.

 

I don't want to spend 3 months, years whatever building a sweet castle and then having it torched at 3AM because I was sleeping while the college age crew was just getting in from the bar.

 

You'd have to set up so many restrictions it would be ridiculous.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Frostvein

[AJediKnight]

The problem with the whole "Building and perhaps losing" idea is that if the game exists in real life, I am not going to be able to help defend my little town for more then a few hours a day if that.

 

I don't want to spend 3 months, years whatever building a sweet castle and then having it torched at 3AM because I was sleeping while the college age crew was just getting in from the bar.

 

You'd have to set up so many restrictions it would be ridiculous.

 

Not really. As an example, SWG's bases would become vulnerable at certain times. When I played the game, this was random, but I bet you could set it up so that your base would only become vulnerable at primetime, maybe 2-3 nights a week, when you actually had the bodies on to defend it.

 

My hypothetical MMO isn't out to grief you . We're all about fun here. If someone wants to conquer your castle, they're going to have to possess the stones to do it when every man you've got is hunkered down inside. We're not interested in a cheap 3 a.m. victory here at AJediKnight-Co.

Edited February 7, 2012 by AJediKnight

[Kindara]

...So you thinkw e should stop looking backwards at "themeparks" which are actually "newer" than sandbox games and return to sandbox? Interesting backwards concept there.

 

There's a reason why games like that didnt' catch on in a massive form. You can't make something appeal to people who aren't interested it. I can't make you like theme park games just like you can't make 11 million people like sandbox games. I get really tired of people going boo hoo another theme park game. There are sandbox games out there you know.

 

Stop sitting on your high horse and go support those games. Personally I'll be staying here I feel invested in the game and my characters thanks to the story system which I think has been missing from MMO - RPG games. There's something for everyone out there. There's open world, there pvp games, there's fps mmo games I mean damn you all act like OMG there's nothing out there but WoW and theme games.

 

I dont and never have liked the idea of playing an MMO and paying MY hard earned money to constantly start over and build from scratch which constantly happened in many sandbox games.

 

Stop crying and move on. Its been known long long long since before launch this was going to be a theme park game. If they add some sandbox elements to the game with ships or bases that'll be great more power to us that stay for it but crying about things you knew weren't there from the beginning is getting old.

 

Go play a game you like that is a Sandbox they still exist.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Kindara

[AJediKnight]

...So you thinkw e should stop looking backwards at "themeparks" which are actually "newer" than sandbox games and return to sandbox? Interesting backwards concept there.

 

Nobody has made a serious attempt to make a grade-A western sandbox MMO since SWG, a game which would arguably still be around today in some capacity if SOE hadn't repeatedly screwed the pooch.

 

SWG was designed in the days of low-budget MMOs. I have yet to see even a $20 million dollar sandbox or hybrid, let alone a $100 million one.

[Frostvein]

Not really. As an example, SWG's bases would become vulnerable at certain times. When I played the game, this was random, but I bet you could set it up so that your base would only become vulnerable at primetime, maybe 2-3 nights a week, when you actually had the bodies on to defend it.

 

My hypothetical MMO isn't out to grief you . We're all about fun here. If someone wants to conquer your castle, they're going to have to possess the stones to do it when every man you've got is hunkered down inside. We're not interested in a cheap 3 a.m. victory here at AJediKnight-Co.

 

Interesting ideas, but even 2-3 nights a week are a hassle for alot of people. I'd probably play a game like this but i don't think that the industry thinks there is a viable market for it.

[marshalleck]

The solution to your base being torched while you're asleep or at work is simple. Offer players a choice!

 

Make some areas controlled and PVE only. Let people set up their towns and shops and tradeskill factories (i.e. the foundation of the economy) where they will not be attacked. Then, add another planet or zone or whatever where players can build bases which can be attacked, even if only periodically. Attach some incentive, like regularly spawning high-grade crafting materials in the zone only extractable by specific pvp-enabled extractors.

 

Of course, equally high-grade materials should spawn outside the PVP zone as well, but with irregular rates and in dynamic patterns such that obtaining them would be the domain of dedicated gatherers and prospectors.

Edited February 7, 2012 by marshalleck

[timewatch]

I don't like sandbox games because they feel so pointless. It might be fun to build up stuffs, but why? Sandbox games all revolves around griefing each other. You build something up for the sole purpose of getting tear down by others.

 

With theme-park games, there's a purpose. You collect X items kill Y stuffs, get a reward! It feels like you did something. With the ultimate goal of running endgame instances for awesome loots. Sandbox usually don't have any sort of endgame? No big raids for end game instance, right? Otherwise it would be a theme-park game.

[Etherlad]

3) Finally, there is a lack of personal investment and personal loss in game worlds that is draining the life out of the genre.[...]

about a game world that neither rewards nor punishes for victory and defeat, is that you wind up with a lot of people who don't really give a crap what happens anywhere.

 

Apparently you don't know Eve Online.

 

The solution to your base being torched while you're asleep or at work is simple.

 

Have a Guild that's spread across different Timezones on a Server spread across different Timezones.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Etherlad

[AJediKnight]

Apparently you don't know Eve Online.

 

I do. But I also know that EVE is flawed in two specific ways that have always kept it small market:

 

1) Not everyone likes playing as 'a ship.'

 

2) The nature of the skill system in EVE means that the mountain that new players need to climb gets higher every day. So no matter what EVE does, with each passing hour, it becomes more unapproachable for incoming players.

[Dumpiduke]

The first major company to realize this, and to design a game that lets go of so many of these dusty old habits and design a quality, hybrid product, is going to make WoW -- even at its height -- look like a complete joke.

 

I respect what you’re trying to say, but the fact of the matter is that the majority of players like what’s familiar and comfortable to them. You don’t think Bioware did tons of market research before they decided that they were going to follow the direction that the genre has taken? They went with what was safe—a game that is easily accessible and open to casual players. Hopefully they add a few sandbox features (guild fleets, sandbox crafting features, housing) to appease those that are looking for more non-combat progression paths.

 

From the sounds of it, Guild Wars 2 is trying o break the mold a bit. That game will truly be a test to see if the future games in the MMO genre will be forced to follow the all-to-familiar formula that WoW has created. To say that WoW will ever look like a complete joke is rather silly. The game was a remarkable achievement for the video game industry and anyone that says otherwise has their head in the clouds. Like it or not, WoW is to MMO’s what Mario is to platformers, and it will always be that way.

[Kaphik]

It's simple to say that a sandbox game is the way to go, quite another to make it so.

[marshalleck]

It's simple to say that a sandbox game is the way to go, quite another to make it so.

 

Minecraft: 4 million purchases as of November 2011.

 

Saying hardly anyone is interested in sandbox gameplay is simply not true. Of course, Minecraft also only costs $15 once to get in and play, but the price structure of MMOs is also something I think we're going to see evolving in the future sooner rather than later.

[TonyIommi]

Minecraft: 4 million purchases as of November 2011.

 

Saying hardly anyone is interested in sandbox gameplay is simply not true. Of course, Minecraft also only costs $15 once to get in and play, but the price structure of MMOs is also something I think we're going to see evolving in the future sooner rather than later.

 

The price point has more to do with mine crafts success than anything else. You can say the same for LoL which is even more popular than warcraft atm. Has nothing to do with it being sandbox or not. Most people can't or don't really care about the distinction. They just want to have fun.

[Etherlad]

2) The nature of the skill system in EVE means that the mountain that new players need to climb gets higher every day. So no matter what EVE does, with each passing hour, it becomes more unapproachable for incoming players.

 

I don't want to derail this thread to a Eve-discussion but that really is a common misconception.

 

While Eve is indeed very unforgiving and inhospitable to new players, they do have a place in Player-Owned-Space. Not only can they jump into Interceptors very fast now (because the Game got finally rid of Learning Skills) most 0.0-Alliances started accepting Newbs into their ranks easier than before.

 

 

That aside, as a player who only played Eve for years and ignored all other typical MMOs, the usual PVPers in Games like WoW and now SWTOR strike me as very odd.

 

PVP in these Games is completely pointless. No investment, no personal loss or Gain, just mindless Ganking day in day out.

 

So i do agree that having players and Guilds spend months of Work and tons of Ressources to build their own Fortresses and Empires they can personally identify with, and then defend it against others, would be a great touch.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Etherlad

[Uben]

It sounds like Mortal Online...