SWTOR: Theme-park MMO design. End of the road?

[Rigota]

You forgot a word, the many on the forum. Those do not equal the many in the game.

 

I've asked this before and I'll ask again, why, if as you say the majority prefers sandboxes do they not subscribe when there is a sandbox game then? So either your numbers are far smaller than you imagine or ya'll are telling fibs here what it is you want.

 

Depends what genre the game is. MMO(RPGS) fit sandboxes better than singleplayer games which favor theme park. Star Wars for example fits a sandbox much better than a themepark. You can say SWG was one and failed a bit but the sandbox thing was the sole reason left why it was good it had a lot of bad gameplay and other issues what was the reason why it was going down.

 

IF SWTOR was a sandbox with good pve, pvp, good freedom good gameplay no issues like: you must farm alignment/affection with YOUR SENTENCES in order to get gear(a huge attack on freedom), the insane bug list, the maze like planets or any of the other issues also discussed largely on the forum. Then swtor was the best mmo ever. In SWTOR the themepark factor is so explicitly present that its not even a themepark but a railtrack in it.

 

And sandbox or themepark doesn't decide if it is good game. There can be unlimited of other things that makes or break a game. A good game has no issues!

Edited February 8, 2012 by Rigota

[ShaftyMcShaft]

I find this sooooooo funny. Not dogging WoW or anything because I enjoyed my time there. But if you're saying you can't one button WoW you're lying to yourself.

 

Please link me a viable one button macro for a MM hunter in WoW 4.x.

 

What, just spam SS? What about your MMM procs, and your ISS buff? And hard casting Aimed under dynamic haste effects?

 

If you think you can one button macro modern day wow you have no idea how the class mechanics work.

[DarthKhaos]

I'm expecting WoW except better and I got WoW but worse. It's a fun change of pace and I did indeed get my lightsabers, but at the end of the day it just doesn't have the depth or scope of WoW. It's KOTOR3 with multiplayer, which is AWESOME...as a single player RPG, but not as a theme-park MMO.

This is subjective. YOU say it's worse others don't. Fact is you can't please everyone and BioWare has pushed the idea of playing the different classes to get the whole picture. Players want to suck up as much content with one character and then complain the others are the same. If people expected a whole set of different quests outside of the class quests for each class they should also expect to be disappointed.

 

All the talk about how you CAN go different zones to level in WoW players still ended up in the same zones doing the same quests on multiple characters and yet they don't complain. Hell I know a guy that made 5 hunters.

 

The thing is people are having fun. You may not but the thing is BioWare never lied to you. They said 200hrs of content per character. So you found a way to do it in 125hrs. Big deal. They designed it more for people who like to play alts and want to experience the various stories.

 

Do you know someone asked me on one of my characters why I'm not leveling faster? I was like why? Not because I believe there's nothing to do at level 50 but why should you care how fast I'm leveling. They don't even know if I have a level 50 already or not. I'm not complaining that I'm bored, I'm not complaining that there's nothing to do, I'm not complaining about anything. I log on talk some smack with friends, run some warzones, act the fool in General Chat, help guildies, try to figure out how the hell did those guys get up there (still annoying me that I haven't figured that out yet) or anything I feel like doing.

 

There are things to do at level 50 it's IF you want to do them. If you don't and also don't want to make an alt then this game probably isn't for you and I don't understand why that is a bad thing.

 

 

Casuals. They still have viable skills and can hold their own in a fair fight. They excel in team environments and have zero tolerance for attitudes. Their perfectionist edge is gone because they chose to let it go. They bask in the heat of battle but have no desire to fight an entire war. They play to win - just not at all costs. When they pat you on the back, you can add it to your resumé. And when they drink, they drink Dos Equis. Stay thirsty my friends . . .

 

I can say this because I am one of them. I'm a recovered hardcore. I'm a casual and I'm proud of it:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWH1jEgiO0w&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLA530801732670E76

Does Equis Amber FTW!

But this is so true. I would consider myself this type of casual player. I played FFXI for 20hrs one day just to gain one level... Then grabbed the same group cause we ironed out our system and did it again the next day in 15 hrs, and the next day in 18hrs. 3 levels in 3 days a total of 53hrs. I'm not doing that crap again... EVER...

 

 

Please link me a viable one button macro for a MM hunter in WoW 4.x.

 

What, just spam SS? What about your MMM procs, and your ISS buff? And hard casting Aimed under dynamic haste effects?

 

If you think you can one button macro modern day wow you have no idea how the class mechanics work.

You're talking about playing the class to the maximum potential. Even in SW:TOR you can't do that with one button. The Average WoW player can copy a one button macro and play and do ok. Doesn't make them "l33t" but neither does one buttoning in SW:TOR.

 

Point: It CAN be done.

Edited February 8, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Palenen]

/agree

 

Its not the Themepark design but the lack of all the social content mmo's have brought to the table. Nuances such as your character animating while you simply chat to others or *kicks dead horse* sitting in chairs with other people.

 

Designs for players do procedures to make things better such as experimenting while crafting to possibly pump up the stats a bit. The crafting isn't really all that bad it's just not yours but your companion's. I think it would feel better if the main crafting profession was yours and the player did the crafting instead of your companion. (even though it has your name on the item) Decorating the ship with sit-able chairs, couches, beds, tables, console, perhaps some sort of a ambient light. Getting mail in your ship would be nice too. Allowing up to sixteen people in your ship would be fantastic.

 

Is the Hero engine capable?

 

Another idea would be to place high level content on every planet. Get everyone everywhere. But that's another thought.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Palenen

[saminaobx]

I ban ru!

 

-----------------------------end of rhine

[IIII-IIII-IIII]

Blizzard turned your favorite Mom & Pop burger and fries diner into McDonalds and introduced it to the masses. MMO's will never be the same now, unfortunately.

 

Great post though, OP.

Edited February 8, 2012 by IIII-IIII-IIII

[Llann]

I almost totally disagree with the OP, at least on the basis of time and content for this game.

 

SWTOR is a hideously bad example of how to make a themepark MMO. There is so much development spread so thin with the eight class quests going in a chain right the way through the game, and then 'finishing' at level 50, with what is essentially no max level content.

 

It's just a leveling engine, basically.

 

It would be very easy with a bit of clear, basic planning to do a hell of a lot better. =/'

[Soulaufein]

AS may other posters already said, GW2 is taking - theoretically - the leap you are sugesting, incorporating a "mix" of typicl theme park MMOs and sandboxes. Staged beta is coming and people will be able to have an idea if ANet will indeed deliver on the features they are proud to announce.

 

I am not sure SW:ToR will survive with a healthy playerbase the Diablo 3 and GW2 release. For the many reasons already know, and specially because they are going to loose the vast majorityof their disheartened PvP player base. Because one thing is for sure: GW2 WILL have better PvP than SW:ToR. Its not hard to offer a better PvP experience than SW:ToR and, well, its a PvP centric game. If ANet cant get a better PVP experience comparing to TOR, in a PVP centric game they may as well close their doors.

 

GW2 wont be the third coming, but I bet the PvP will be better than TORs. And that is gonna cost BW.

[MrTijger]

 

And sandbox or themepark doesn't decide if it is good game. There can be unlimited of other things that makes or break a game. A good game has no issues!

 

 

Uh, the whole topic is about the fact that a sandbox makes for a better game, also, all games have issues even those rated a 10. I will just point out Skyrim to illustrate that so thats a non-starter.

 

I still dont see an answer to my central question which was why sandbox MMO's fail consistently when put on the market.

[UA_Wookie]

meant to quote the other guy..

 

gw2 is also a completly different philosophy.. and it's f2p. so your kidding yourself if you think people will leave games for it. oh and all the pvp people are going to rage at the zero pvp rewards they offer... because pvp isn't pvp anymore ya know, its a gear grind.

 

Funny, that's exactly why i'm leaving SWTOR when it comes out. I'm just sick and tired of the same old gear grind. I'd rather play for fun.

[Khaunshar]

AS may other posters already said, GW2 is taking - theoretically - the leap you are sugesting, incorporating a "mix" of typicl theme park MMOs and sandboxes. Staged beta is coming and people will be able to have an idea if ANet will indeed deliver on the features they are proud to announce.

 

I am not sure SW:ToR will survive with a healthy playerbase the Diablo 3 and GW2 release. For the many reasons already know, and specially because they are going to loose the vast majorityof their disheartened PvP player base. Because one thing is for sure: GW2 WILL have better PvP than SW:ToR. Its not hard to offer a better PvP experience than SW:ToR and, well, its a PvP centric game. If ANet cant get a better PVP experience comparing to TOR, in a PVP centric game they may as well close their doors.

 

GW2 wont be the third coming, but I bet the PvP will be better than TORs. And that is gonna cost BW.

 

I dont really believe that GW2 wont be able to beat SWTOR in the PvP area, however I do doubt that ArenaNet is sitting on a big hit there.

Frankly, in the past 10 years, many MMOs have tried to go for the PvP playerbase. Very few have even had a somewhat longish lifespan at healthy population levels. Even fewer exist today in that same form, and have not undergone serious redesign.

I dont see a particular reason just yet why Guild Wars 2 is such a huge improvement. Even for a great design, there are so many possibilities to fail in the eyes of the incredibly fickle PvP MMO playerbase, its easy to imagine it being released very nicely, but a handful of hard-to-squash nasty bugs, and the obligatory balance problems with builds/classes, turning the game into an exploit-fest, flame-fest and big disappointment.

 

Also, and that has been true for ages now: People are MUCH MUCH MUCH more reward-oriented today than back when GW released. However, with the carrot comes the problem of people abusing the system to get the carrot faster. I havent yet seen a PvP game released since the original GW that was able to offer PvP progression content, thus guarantee a longer subscription/playtime, yet not fall to the exploitive behaviour of its own playerbase.

 

WAR, AOC, WoW, SWTOR, Aion, Rift , all these games have had, and still have, serious problems with people simply just trying to break the game for short-term gain, and doing so in numbers that makes it hard to punish them for it without alienating too much of your pvp playerbase.

[MrTijger]

AS may other posters already said, GW2 is taking - theoretically - the leap you are sugesting, incorporating a "mix" of typicl theme park MMOs and sandboxes. Staged beta is coming and people will be able to have an idea if ANet will indeed deliver on the features they are proud to announce.

 

I am not sure SW:ToR will survive with a healthy playerbase the Diablo 3 and GW2 release. For the many reasons already know, and specially because they are going to loose the vast majorityof their disheartened PvP player base. Because one thing is for sure: GW2 WILL have better PvP than SW:ToR. Its not hard to offer a better PvP experience than SW:ToR and, well, its a PvP centric game. If ANet cant get a better PVP experience comparing to TOR, in a PVP centric game they may as well close their doors.

 

GW2 wont be the third coming, but I bet the PvP will be better than TORs. And that is gonna cost BW.

 

I think you are overstating GW2's case and creating yet another nonsensical hype which only hurts otherwise fine games.

 

Also, I'll just point out that GW1 was originally designed so that PvP WAS the endgame, they had to give up on it pretty dang quick.

[Uben]

Blizzard turned your favorite Mom & Pop burger and fries diner into McDonalds and introduced it to the masses. MMO's will never be the same now, unfortunately.

 

Great post though, OP.

 

That's what we thought way back in the 90s when there was nothing to be had but hair bands on the radio if you wanted to listen to modern rock and roll...

 

It all changes in a flash.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Uben

[Chessack]

If Bioware really wants SWTOR to succeed they need to first and foremost, provide more cohesive guidance on how to proceed at L50, but then also add in sandbox elements to give players ways to spend their time between patches. Player housing, a total revamp of the crafting system for a more meaningful meta-game, etc. Heck I think an amazing thing would be an EVE-like space part of the game that you could explore and carve out your own little niche, except far less ruthless than EVE, of course.

 

Other than player housing, the mechanics for which already semi-exist in game (green doors into small buildings in the world could easily be adapted for this purpose), I think you are asking for things that really don't fit with the design of the game. For someone who claims to be a design "expert" I'm surprised you can't see this.

 

Just take your open-space EVE request. From what you're saying, you want to be able to conquer and hold worlds or systems with your guild, compete for territory, etc. Such a setup would completely fly in the face of the entire lore and story of TOR, which has only two factions, and those factions own most of the galaxy. What exactly is your Sith guild of 40 people named "TehPWnXXORs" going to do -- wrest control of star systems from the Sith Empire? Oh and while you're doing it, still be allowed onto worlds like Droumnd Kaas and given missions by those still loyal to the Empire? What you're asking would wipe out the entire story system in the game and make it obsolete. Which maybe is what YOU want... but it isn't what those of us who LIKE the story parts and the voice acting and the "BW" stuff that this game has would want to see happen.

 

As for crafting, I find it "deep" enough. My only quibble is that, as in just about every other MMO that I've played, my combat level is faster to raise than my crafting level, so I can hardly ever craft things for myself to use (because what I find in the world is superior to the best things I can craft). If they could find a way to address that, otherwise I am fine with the crafting system. It's plenty deep enough to satisfy me, and I wouldn't want it to become some sort of Vanguard-esque chore to craft. Again, in terms of the BW experience, crafting has always been a fun add-on to BW games, not a game in and of itself. This is BW and it is Star Wars... our characters really shouldn't be spending all their time on crafting. They are heroes or villains, and should be out in the galaxy saving it or trying to destroy it.

 

Again, as someone who loved the Sandboxy elements of SWG and enjoyed EVE for a little while, I can certainly appreciate the desire to play a Sandbox game, and especially one that has a Star Wars theme to it. But BW has been clear since day 1 that their game is not meant to be a sandbox. Asking them to change that design now that it's live is utterly unrealistic, and again, I'm surprised someone who is a design expert would suggest it. It'd be like suggesting to the NHL that they should implement more rules from baseball into their game.

[RocNessMonster]

Anyone who claims that sandbox games are dead has zero clue what they are talking about.

 

EVE Online and Perpetuum Online have had steady growth rates for long time. In fact, year after year they grow while dozens of themeparks dwindle down to FTP status due to lack of interest.

 

Then you take into account the fact that Minecraft, which isn't technically an MMO, has sold more than twice the copies of SWTOR. It's a sandbox in its purest form and millions of people play it daily.

 

Minecraft Users and Sales Statistics

 

Just the opposite is true. Sandbox is the future. Themeparks are going the way of the dodo and SWTOR may be the last final gasp before they die.

 

Your completely wrong, look at the cries of the casual, "we play it because it's a game". They aren't interested in a virtual second life, they are only interested in a game they can log into for 15-30 minutes and make progress. They are the majority and they have spoken.

[Uben]

 

Again, as someone who loved the Sandboxy elements of SWG and enjoyed EVE for a little while, I can certainly appreciate the desire to play a Sandbox game, and especially one that has a Star Wars theme to it. But BW has been clear since day 1 that their game is not meant to be a sandbox. Asking them to change that design now that it's live is utterly unrealistic, and again, I'm surprised someone who is a design expert would suggest it. It'd be like suggesting to the NHL that they should implement more rules from baseball into their game.

 

I think most of us know TOR cannot go this route now. To change here at this point would be another NGE. The irony cannot be lost on them either. One sandbox goes theme park and the other is an extreme theme park that goes more sandbox. There is no way this could ever happen. So this is what TOR has to stick with now, for better or worse...

[ShadoeWrayth]

#1: WoW wasn't even WoW when it first came out

 

Everyone keeps comparing SWTOR to WoW (the current one)... how many of you remember when it first came out? To say it was almost nothing like it is now, would be an understatement. If you want to compare new games to the current WoW, you are never going to find one that will stand up.

 

#2: WoW did something unique, and for that I DO praise it (even though I don't like it personally)

 

WoW is/was a mix of Theme-Park AND Sandbox. They blended the two very well, and it works very well. I, personally, cannot stand it for the same reason I don't play games like Fiesta and FLYFF... WAY too casual and kiddy-friendly. I prefer my more serious games that take time to master, and effort. I also DO like that the older games took time to get from one place to another. It feels more REAL, AND they usually had tons of stuff along the way (hidden caves or ruins, named enemies, etc).

 

#3: Casual Player does not mean Bad Player, it just means a type of player who needs a different game than what some others want.

 

I don't see why Developers don't understand this. They continue to vomit up all of these games that are meant for casual players, but then never make a game for hardcore players. I understand they want to make money, no problem with that. But when they see 200K-500K people unsatisfied, and say whatever; I look at that group and see an opportunity. Yes, make these games, but then also make a second game (maybe not as expensive, but who cares) that is meant for the others. THEN you will have BOTH groups paying you, AND they will be happy!

 

#4: The problem with all these games IS that they try to be WoW.

 

Look through our history. Very rarely is the copy worth anything compared to the original. If they truly ADD or IMPROVE on something, then it may succeed. But simply making copies of something inevitably makes less and less money. Basically, it is the Photo-Copy effect: Photo-Copy the original and have decent quality, Photo-Copy the Copy and have less quality, etc etc. And the developers only see what works vs what is unproven. WoW worked, sandbox/open-world is unproven (because the number of MMO players then vs now is completely different, so who knows how it would do NOW)... So they continue to clone WoW with a different skin, and the quality of the copies continues to degrade with each game.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

I have a unique idea for how to fix SWTOR though. Due to the constraints of servers, the amount they can put on each one has to have limits. Apparently, there is a huge outcry for end-game content and just content in general, as well as issues with population, issues with the GTN, and more. So why not use your limitations to your advantage (Think it was Sun-Tzu who said, The truly strong man is the one who turns his weaknesses into strengths).

 

Make each server a different planet. Other games have implemented VERY well, cross-server movement (they just didn't have anything real to work with, SWTOR does have that though, so no worries). When you travel to another planet, you are on a different server. Implement a cross-server GTN, so if anyone anywhere puts something up, then EVERYONE can see it. Implement cross-server PVP AND LFD, because then your reputation still means something as if you screw up in a group, you still might run into those people again (and probably will).

 

This would give room and ability to make each planet as real and fleshed out as they wanted to, and only have to worry about a limited amount of people on each server. Sending tells across servers is not really a problem, other games have had that included and had no issues with it. They would of course need a character-server, so that all toons are stored on it and no names would interfere with each other (all unique names).

 

Just my thoughts.

[Etherlad]

Just take your open-space EVE request. From what you're saying, you want to be able to conquer and hold worlds or systems with your guild, compete for territory, etc. Such a setup would completely fly in the face of the entire lore and story of TOR, which has only two factions, and those factions own most of the galaxy. What exactly is your Sith guild of 40 people named "TehPWnXXORs" going to do -- wrest control of star systems from the Sith Empire?

 

I for one hoped both sides could fight for temporary control on "neutral" planets like Nar Shadaa or Belsavis. I mean Empire vs. Republic-Players competing in Open PVP-Areas over conquerable outposts who can turn control over a planet to one side or the other which in turn gives certain benefits to the holding Side.

[DARKLORDMAXIMUS]

This I find fascinating. Genuinely. Why go back to WoW? It's the exact same experience. Do scripted content. Reach max level. Do more scripted content. Done everything? Nothing left to do that isn't repetition. The only distinction at all to be made at a game design level is that WoW has overall lots more to do (as it bloody well should after seven years) and fewer bugs (ditto). That's it. It's the same treadmill design.

 

Is the issue only that the treadmill is too short in TOR? Again, why go back to WoW? Is it familiarity? That warm Pavlovian feel of the familiar repetition because after years, well, it's all the brain knows? I'm not being critical; I just find it interesting that one grind of theme-park content is so much more favourable than another. What stops WoW from being boring?

 

I'm not going to disagree that in EVE there is this exponential curve instead of a straight line. The big factor that changes in EVE is that other players can make such a difference that your own game experience changes, whether it's prices on the market or someone blowing up half your POSes. That's a major distinction because it has a sandbox; the actual activities remain the same, but you can end up reprioritising them based upon others' actions. That I feel TOR is definitely lacking in some way, even abstract.

 

Note I'm not saying that in any of these cases that treadmill is a bad thing. If a day on the treadmill is an enjoyable experience and you come out of it feeling that your expenditure of time & money on the game was worth it, then that's all that matters - but I guess what I'm saying is that it seems all too easy to miss that the same repetition of activities, the same grind, is just being dressed up in different ways. I could describe the same about, say, World of Tanks progression.

 

Intriguing game discussions.

 

 

lol i play world of tanks as well maybe once a week or so.. and for me its the perfect game for .. oh i have 20 minutes to play befire i have to go to the store with the gf.. ect... but its never been about hard core for me its about low on time instant action.

 

But when it comes to an MMO that i have to pay for ... as simple as SWTOR is .. and if it stays that way .. it does not make sence for me to spend $15 on it when eve is more my taste.. and in saying that SWG (starwars galaxies) "WAS" more or less what i wanted in an MMO before i started playing eve.. it was my favorate universe (star wars)) and it was sandbox.. (i built a toon, i Built a guild, i built a city and after 1-2 years i had an empire with 200+ imperial players that lived in 2 cities with malls and banks and shuttle ports missions terminals and all my friends spent time in my bar.. where we decided on whos rebel base to destroy and when. in the off time i fished and i built speeders and houses... it was a busy game and a social game... then the CU and NGE came after SOE wanted WOW's money... and they killed that game.. i moved to EVE while all the "simple" players moved to wow..

 

I knew when they game was comming out.. when i was in beta.. that its was a WOW knockoff.. but that didnt stop me from thinking that the only "starwars" game left to play would have some of the good things from both worlds (SWG and WOW)..

 

but looks like the game is all WOW... which is sad.. because even the wow players like my GF after 7 years are board of it.. and thats why she is here playing SWTOR...

 

But she wants to go back when wow has its next large patch because she already "won" this game.. and she has like many others.. nothing else to do...

 

She does not really enjoy eve becuase its so like playing battle spreadsheets.. with space ships... and money.. she likes games that say .. you go here and kill that guy and come back and get loots...

 

I like making my own game with the tools that are in the game.. i like a good story as well like in SWTOR.. but i want a game with both.. and i hope that Bioware is the one to make that choice.. because the theme park games are not holding people like they used to...

Edited February 8, 2012 by DARKLORDMAXIMUS

[DarthKhaos]

I'm curious. What Sandbox elements does World of Warcraft have? Perhaps my definition of Sandbox is different so can you guys who say it does please point it out so I know what you're talking about and be on the same page.

[DARKLORDMAXIMUS]

Rrriiiggghhhttt... So you're saying I can beat someone who has a lot more in game character trained skills for combat than me in PvP. You and I both know that's BS. You can't even scrape them. And guess what you're not catching up in the trained skills.

 

No you are very wrong... very very wrong.. i have been playing the game for 7 years and i got killed by a guy who was only in game for 2 years.. how.. quite easy.. ship set up and skill.. i have taken a large break from massive and active PVP.. and this guy does it all the time.. also the ship (combat) that i was in was not set up very well becuase i didnt pay attention to detail when i set it up (lazy) and he right out wooped me in a fight that lasted only 2 minutes.. (and we both had the same class of ship).

 

if i was to compare his (skills) to mine they are a joke.. he had around 30,000,000 skill points.. i have over 80,000,000 and most of my combat skills are maxed out (level 5). but becuase my ships gear was not set up well.. he won.

 

There is more then one type of skill in EVE... not just your skill points and actuall skills).

Edited February 8, 2012 by DARKLORDMAXIMUS

[ShadoeWrayth]

I'm curious. What Sandbox elements does World of Warcraft have? Perhaps my definition of Sandbox is different so can you guys who say it does please point it out so I know what you're talking about and be on the same page.

 

Depends on whether you come from a single player game environment or an MMO environment.

 

Single Player Environment Sandbox

 

Sandboxes are small enclosed areas where you have absolute freedom, but only within the confines of the parameters. Therefore, from a single player standpoint, SWTOR is a sandbox. You can wander wherever you want and do whatever you want (within the allowances of those borders). Also, WoW has some of those elements. Technically, those large areas have boundaries that you cannot climb over or bypass... but then, EQ also had areas like that (Zones) that forced a person to have to walk the wall until they got to a road or pass that would allow them entrance. Most linear games (online or offline) follow this method. Every player experiences the exact same basic storyline, with each character possibly having its own unique variation of that same story.

 

MMO Environment Sandbox

 

A sandbox is a place where you have complete freedom, "It's YOUR sandbox, play how you want!" With MMO's it is more generally accepted as a sort of synonym for "Open-World". EQ2 was more this style, as well as EQOA. WoW had those enclosed areas, but they were friggin HUGE compared to an EQ zone, so even though you had borders, they were so far out as to instead be considered to be boundaries of the actual game, not the area you were in. The only other boundaries they had were mountains that were impassable, but that is an ok limit. Rift is a better example of this, as one can truly just climb all the way up a mountain and cross into very hostile territory (in fact they have achievements and rewards for climbing mountains lol), offline examples of this are The Elder Scrolls games, Fallout 3, and Fallout New Vegas. Non-linear games tend to follow this method, as it also tends to be a style that allows each player to take very different paths, all leading to the same end, but different paths nonetheless; as well as having various extra quests and content that are not required. Most players will only see a fraction of all there is in a game like this, having chosen a path that took them elsewhere.

 

I wouldn't say SWTOR is an example of the second version because instead of having LARGE (almost endless) areas that connect to each other, they have fairly large areas but in reality having 3 fairly large areas connected, doesn't equal having an entire continent (15-20 Large areas at the least) connected.

[MithurElb]

Depends on whether you come from a single player game environment or an MMO environment.

 

Single Player Environment Sandbox

 

Sandboxes are small enclosed areas where you have absolute freedom, but only within the confines of the parameters. Therefore, from a single player standpoint, SWTOR is a sandbox. You can wander wherever you want and do whatever you want (within the allowances of those borders). Also, WoW has some of those elements. Technically, those large areas have boundaries that you cannot climb over or bypass... but then, EQ also had areas like that (Zones) that forced a person to have to walk the wall until they got to a road or pass that would allow them entrance. Most linear games (online or offline) follow this method. Every player experiences the exact same basic storyline, with each character possibly having its own unique variation of that same story.

 

MMO Environment Sandbox

 

A sandbox is a place where you have complete freedom, "It's YOUR sandbox, play how you want!" With MMO's it is more generally accepted as a sort of synonym for "Open-World". EQ2 was more this style, as well as EQOA. WoW had those enclosed areas, but they were friggin HUGE compared to an EQ zone, so even though you had borders, they were so far out as to instead be considered to be boundaries of the actual game, not the area you were in. The only other boundaries they had were mountains that were impassable, but that is an ok limit. Rift is a better example of this, as one can truly just climb all the way up a mountain and cross into very hostile territory (in fact they have achievements and rewards for climbing mountains lol), offline examples of this are The Elder Scrolls games, Fallout 3, and Fallout New Vegas. Non-linear games tend to follow this method, as it also tends to be a style that allows each player to take very different paths, all leading to the same end, but different paths nonetheless; as well as having various extra quests and content that are not required. Most players will only see a fraction of all there is in a game like this, having chosen a path that took them elsewhere.

 

I wouldn't say SWTOR is an example of the second version because instead of having LARGE (almost endless) areas that connect to each other, they have fairly large areas but in reality having 3 fairly large areas connected, doesn't equal having an entire continent (15-20 Large areas at the least) connected.

 

You are defining sandbox from a geographic point o view only. And I think that most players (I, for sure) when we speak about sanbox, did it with other meaning.

 

For me, a sandbox game is that where you can modify the world. You don't follow a pre-determined path, but make your own path.

 

While most of this changes are cosmetic, make a huge difference. For instance, let's use a example, in the archetypical fortress most games give to the player at some level.

 

In a linear/theme park, that fortress is always the same (Maybe a few versions in different places, to select, or by class), and every player have the same. In a MMORPG, perforce, this fortress will be instanced.

 

In a sandbox/non-linear game, you select where to place your fortress, how will it be, and idealistically, when get it (Not a determined level, but when you make some things, got certain kind of power, etc...). And in a MMORPG, it won't be instanced: you use a portion of the world that the rest of the people will be able to see (SWG).

 

The difference is that, in a sandbox, you can modify the scenery, the environment. If you want a house, you get the rigths to the terrain (If needed), you grind the mats, you evolve your build skills (Or pay for it) and you build the kind of house you want/can where you want/can.

 

And that's it.

 

In a themepark, like SWTOR or WoW, you get the fragging house at a level, is instanced, and is exactly the same than everyone else of the same race/class. LOTRO make this a bit better, but in the end is the same.

 

So, in a sandbox the crafting is a lot more relevant than in a themepark. And another skills, apart from the figthing ones, could be very important.

[ForceCowboy]

No you are very wrong... very very wrong.. i have been playing the game for 7 years and i got killed by a guy who was only in game for 2 years.. how.. quite easy.. ship set up and skill.. i have taken a large break from massive and active PVP.. and this guy does it all the time.. also the ship (combat) that i was in was not set up very well becuase i didnt pay attention to detail when i set it up (lazy) and he right out wooped me in a fight that lasted only 2 minutes.. (and we both had the same class of ship).

 

if i was to compare his (skills) to mine they are a joke.. he had around 30,000,000 skill points.. i have over 80,000,000 and most of my combat skills are maxed out (level 5). but becuase i me ships gear was not set upi well.. he won.

 

There is more then one type of skill in EVE... not just your skill points and actuall skills).

 

I've been killed dozens of times by players with far less time in game than me. In fact, I was killed on both accounts at the same time by the same Claymore in low sec the other day. I was dual boxxing and my jams simply wouldn't go off. He MWD's to my Falcon and two shotted it, then burned my cane down slowly.

 

He was doing something right, cause I couldn't kill a 3 year old player with TWO seven year old accounts that are maxxed out for what they do.

 

Age has a very small advantage in EVE. Ship fits and player skill are much more important. I really hate it when the uninformed masses that never got past the 14 day trial come in here and try to tell us what EVE is all about.

 

Anyhow, back to the original discussion. In SWTOR I feel even more boxxed in and "on rails" than even in most other thempark MMO's. I played WoW and LOTRO for a bit and they both had huge open worlds where you could just walk towards whatever you wanted to walk towards. In this game, I'm constantly being forced down a particular path to get where I want to go (Balmorra or Corellia anyone??).

 

I can't just say hey, I want to walk to such and such outpost. Even if it only looks like it's 20 feet away, I still have to follow the path that they made for me to get there. It's really immersion breaking and probably one of the reasons I've done very little questing on my second and third characters.

[Bigaus]

if grinding mobs and chatting = sandbox then put me in the non-sandbox crowd.

 

I could watch some paint dry too, but why? why!?