SWTOR: Theme-park MMO design. End of the road?

[Mamono]

What I mean by that (In a thread I'll write after I wake up when more people are on) is all those little issues with the game that you go "hmm this feels weird. this is bad. why did they do it this way?" etc.

 

Like all the time you spend walking through spaceports without even your speeder. How poorly designed the GTN Market window is set up. (options don't get saved when you switch categories. not being able to do a string search until you've picked the exact sub-category, windows closing on their own when you open another, etc. )

 

There is a breadcrumb at L50 to send you to Ilum, but none for Belsavis dailies. No guidance on anything to deal with operations, earning daily commendations, pvp rewards, etc. There is only a dailies vendor at Ilum, but not at Belsavis which also has dailies that award commendations, nor at Vaiken. No explanation on what each of the ships in the Imperial Fleet is for asfaras interfleet transport is concerned. The whole system of getting warzone tokens and converting them to mercenary ones to then buy Champion bags for Centurion tokens and possible champion equipment, etc. is so convoluted and ugly ... I dunno.

 

I understand the limitations of time and budget constraints. But a lot of these issues show a gross lack of fundamental understanding of MMOs and the attention to detail that a great game experience entails. Stuff that doesn't come down to extra time -- but to proper initial design. They must have been consulting Mythic employees for MMO tips lol... big mistake.

 

This is so what I feel, but cant make into words. Thanks for writing it for me

[LizardSF]

Interesting post.

 

Yes, there's a definite lack of non-core gameplay elements (that is, crafting as more of a minigame with multiple decision points, as opposed to the tolerable, but shallow, "slot machine" model they've got now. (By this I mean, I get the same kind of feedback from sending my companions on missions that I get from pulling the lever on a slot machine.... the hope of a good reward (purple crafting materials, new schematics), with the odds of it being a mediocre reward. Same model applies to RE: There's an undeniable thrill in the HOPE of a purple or blue schematic, but the odds are, you'll just get back a fragment of the input resources.), some sort of "fishing" mechanism (perhaps not literally, but some kind of "click and hope" timesink, ideally with multiple axis of improvement to your odds), customization of your starship in both external features and internal arrangement (player housing, in other words), etc). It's possible these will be added relatively rapidly once the core systems are more stable, but highest priority in the short term will be a mix of fixing existing issues and adding content using the tools which already exist (i.e, new zones/instances/scenarios), not creating entirely new subsystems from scratch.

 

I agree with your analysis of the lack of socialization in games as part of the feedback loop caused by a fast leveling curve/fast resource recovery between fights (in EQ, you often needed to wait a minute, or more, between fights if you were drained), but I disagree it can be brought back. The current generation is simply incapable of delaying gratification, and any game which mandated they do so would fail in the marketplace very rapidly. Trying to get today's attention-span-of-a-mayfly youth to slow down and wait is quixotic, at best.

 

I've contemplated that one model which might be interesting is combining a well-designed, well-structured and content-rich themepark with massive procedurally generated spaces, clearly demarcated so people know they're wandering into areas where no human designer has tweaked, fixed, or populated. The Star Wars galaxy is ideal for this. It should be possible, using some basic terrain templates, to create thousands of worlds to be discovered. For the most part, being procedural, you'll very rapidly see most of the patterns/styles/themes, even if the technical terrain and populations are different; pretty soon, one desert world will look like another. However, this is a base to build on.

 

First, you hide things on those thousands of random worlds. Whenever the developers get a moment, they toss down something hand crafted -- a spaceship ruin, a unique schematic, a vanity pet, whatever -- on some world. It exists only once per server, and might not be on the same world on each server. Whoever discovers/finds it, by sheer chance, will have an item no one, or perhaps only very few people, will have.

 

Second, you don't just list all these worlds on a map. You create a hyperspace exploration/discovery minigame. It may take a long time to find a world, but if you're the first to land on it, you are credited with its discovery. Anyone else who finds it will be informed you found it first. There may be a special reward for claiming such worlds for the Republic or the Empire, providing a credit/XP/title incentive.

 

Third, of course, you use these worlds as a basis for PVP. Any world claimed by one faction could be captured by another, if they can find it. The worlds terrain, control points, etc, will be randomized, so there won't be trivially memorized battleground with mindless, rote, tactics -- with thousands of worlds, even with relatively repetitive patterns, players will need to quickly learn the local terrain, find paths and passages, etc. There should be a space component as well, especially the use of interdiction ships to keep trapped enemy forces from just zoning out when you arrive to reclaim the world.

 

Of course, guilds can claim worlds as well, with other guilds able to attack them. (Some sort of timing will be needed to prevent the usual 2 AM assault.)

 

None of this will impede or harm players who want the leveling/PVE/battlefield PVP experience. No one will be forced to wander through boring generated terrain or deal with randomized, flavorless, quests. The "worlds" of procedural content and hand-crafted content will be clearly marked as such; you know what you're getting into if you go into the vast wilds.

 

Obviously, it could take a year or more to implement this; it's not trivial. It would also, invetiably, require several iterations and revisions, once developed, to get it "right"; I could list a thousand areas of likely imbalance and bugs.

 

But it, or something like it, might be a way to add sandbox elements without undermining the themepark.

[Drewser]

What I mean by that (In a thread I'll write after I wake up when more people are on) is all those little issues with the game that you go "hmm this feels weird. this is bad. why did they do it this way?" etc.

 

Like all the time you spend walking through spaceports without even your speeder. How poorly designed the GTN Market window is set up. (options don't get saved when you switch categories. not being able to do a string search until you've picked the exact sub-category, windows closing on their own when you open another, etc. )

 

There is a breadcrumb at L50 to send you to Ilum, but none for Belsavis dailies. No guidance on anything to deal with operations, earning daily commendations, pvp rewards, etc. There is only a dailies vendor at Ilum, but not at Belsavis which also has dailies that award commendations, nor at Vaiken. No explanation on what each of the ships in the Imperial Fleet is for asfaras interfleet transport is concerned. The whole system of getting warzone tokens and converting them to mercenary ones to then buy Champion bags for Centurion tokens and possible champion equipment, etc. is so convoluted and ugly ... I dunno.

 

I understand the limitations of time and budget constraints. But a lot of these issues show a gross lack of fundamental understanding of MMOs and the attention to detail that a great game experience entails. Stuff that doesn't come down to extra time -- but to proper initial design. They must have been consulting Mythic employees for MMO tips lol... big mistake.

 

You might want explore Bel a little better since there are two commendation vendors in the first camp where you pick up the heroic 4 dailies.

[Drewser]

Arena net is taking those risks. Check it.

 

Your constant promotion of GW2 is getting annoying. This is SWTOR board.

 

Go to a board about GW2 if you want to post about it all day.

[asmox]

Your constant promotion of GW2 is getting annoying. This is SWTOR board.

 

Go to a board about GW2 if you want to post about it all day.

meant to quote the other guy..

 

gw2 is also a completly different philosophy.. and it's f2p. so your kidding yourself if you think people will leave games for it. oh and all the pvp people are going to rage at the zero pvp rewards they offer... because pvp isn't pvp anymore ya know, its a gear grind.

Edited February 7, 2012 by asmox

[Jett-Rinn]

Thankfully things are changing. Games are coming out that have quite different systems to work with. TERA/GW2/Secret world, all of which are quite open ended, and those are just the top ones that are well known.

 

Check out GW2 if you love pvp and fantasy pve. Secret world is modern but has a sub. Tera is more asian themed fantasy with super skimpy armor (Not my thing), and you have to actually guide your attacks into a mob, where as in GW2 you actively evade.

 

Check em out, you might like em.

 

I noticed you advertise GW2 a lot on this forum.....one question; have you actually played the game for any significant amount of time? I ask this because it seems the most ardent promoters of the game have only seen videos. I have had significant hands on time and I like it for the same reasons I think the vast majority of MMO players will hate it. GW2 is fun, but to me isn't isn't a MMO, it is a online Role Playing game.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Jett-Rinn

[ForceCowboy]

Anyone who claims that sandbox games are dead has zero clue what they are talking about.

 

EVE Online and Perpetuum Online have had steady growth rates for long time. In fact, year after year they grow while dozens of themeparks dwindle down to FTP status due to lack of interest.

 

Then you take into account the fact that Minecraft, which isn't technically an MMO, has sold more than twice the copies of SWTOR. It's a sandbox in its purest form and millions of people play it daily.

 

Minecraft Users and Sales Statistics

 

Just the opposite is true. Sandbox is the future. Themeparks are going the way of the dodo and SWTOR may be the last final gasp before they die.

Edited February 7, 2012 by ForceCowboy

[Quip]

Your constant promotion of GW2 is getting annoying. This is SWTOR board.

 

Go to a board about GW2 if you want to post about it all day.

 

 

I used to say that the TOR community the worst community in MMO history before launch. I have since retracted that statement not just because it was confrontational and inflammatory of me, but because I started to run into the GW2 crowd.

 

People are going to need a powerful constitution to read chat in that game when it releases, methinks.

[Dantragk]

I noticed you advertise GW2 a lot on this forum.....one question; have you actually played the game for any significant amount of time? I ask this because it seems the most ardent promoters of the game have only seen videos. I have had significant hands on time and I like it for the same reasons I think the vast majority of MMO players will hate it. GW2 is fun, but to me isn't isn't a MMO, it is a online Role Playing game.

 

I'm sorry, but you consider GW2 a ORPG and you don't consider TOR a ORPG? TOR is the first MMO I've ever felt like I actually BEAT.

[lomaxnoah]

Imo , why levels at all. Just make all content "highend".

[Iskareot]

Yes, another feedback post, but seeing as I'm a Compsci major, and my forte is project design and layout, I think it will be worthwhile to read...

 

Bioware has developed a very compelling game world. Many of the locations exhibit not only great beauty, but also are technically very challenging to design. Take a look at the sky/mountains on Alderaan, or the sky above Ilum, etc. And places like Nar Shadaa (And presumably Coruscant) are technically very challenging to accomplish without load screens at acceptable FPS, etc. The use of musical direction in setting the mood for areas, worlds, or quests is excellent. It's the only MMO I feel I can't play with the radio in the background or I won't get the proper effect.

 

SWTOR right now however, is suffering a "death by a thousand paper cuts" as it were, with regards to quality-of-life design issues, and the unguided state of post-50 content. There are myriad little design annoyances with the game that when compounded, have a sizable affect on peoples' perceptions of the game. Combine that with the sink-or-swim nature of content once you reach L50, and it's no wonder server populations are already dwindling.

 

Theme-park MMO designs have reached an untenable situation of exponential costs + ever-shorter leveling curves. The theme-park style of MMO has reached a point of oversaturation -- people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played and expect more within weeks. IMHO the only way forward from here is to mix together elements of the Theme Park, with the Sandbox. Sandbox MMOs alone are too niche to be economically feasible or popular on a large scale. But having sandbox elements in a theme park design, would help subscribers weather the periods between content updates, and give them a reason to keep logging in. It would be the social hub that MMOs have been missing for quite some time.

 

MMOs in the past featured an extensive grind with few quests. My first character in EQ1 took 50 days /played to hit L50, for example. (18-20 days for WoW) But what current MMOs are missing is the social aspect of MMO gaming from the past -- sure you were grinding, but chatting with groupmates and those in the zone was just as important or moreso than leveling your character. This is one of the largest reasons the Korean market still prefers heavier grinds -- it's for the socializing. I think they need to lengthen out the leveling once more and tap more into the social aspects of MMOs. Social networking is so huge now -- why is it that Massively MULTIPLAYER games are such insular solo content these days?

 

If Bioware really wants SWTOR to succeed they need to first and foremost, provide more cohesive guidance on how to proceed at L50, but then also add in sandbox elements to give players ways to spend their time between patches. Player housing, a total revamp of the crafting system for a more meaningful meta-game, etc. Heck I think an amazing thing would be an EVE-like space part of the game that you could explore and carve out your own little niche, except far less ruthless than EVE, of course.

(Quality of life and Guidance issues I'll address in a separate thread)

 

 

 

Ok while you are a compsci major, you have NOT seen markets and how things are in the real compsci world perse.

 

SOME of us old dog's been doing this since you were in grade school maybe I can safely say, while you may be working hard on this info and summary you still lack experience in this field. As a IT dir for a firm for 13 years and one that worked for MS for 5 prior, then 3 for intel doing side work I can safely say you do see some things but not all of them.

 

Your assuming some people do not like things as you do not. You have to always look to the lowest common denominator in the choice of "What people like or want to do"... then go from there.

 

While some of space could have been more in depth I think that was not the goal. By all accounts most of the goals were met in the making of the game as far as concept goes. I too wish some things were different but that leaves room for work...

 

I almost feel a SWG desire with this... almost.. not sure.. I sure hope not the NGE version of SWG if anything. The people that paid for that need to never show their head in public again. I see what your saying but I think you MAY be smart enough to see that what your asking may not fit into this concept or system if you will.

 

Last game that tried to make such changes on this level... well... They just closed down servers in December after failing.

[ScytheNoire]

I don't think BioWare knows how to do an MMO properly. They are out of their league. The Titanic is sinking and people are in denial, sipping their tea, saying that it's unsinkable.

[Gankdalf_]

Yes, another feedback post, but seeing as I'm a Compsci major, and my forte is project design and layout, I think it will be worthwhile to read...

 

Bioware has developed a very compelling game world. Many of the locations exhibit not only great beauty, but also are technically very challenging to design. Take a look at the sky/mountains on Alderaan, or the sky above Ilum, etc. And places like Nar Shadaa (And presumably Coruscant) are technically very challenging to accomplish without load screens at acceptable FPS, etc. The use of musical direction in setting the mood for areas, worlds, or quests is excellent. It's the only MMO I feel I can't play with the radio in the background or I won't get the proper effect.

 

SWTOR right now however, is suffering a "death by a thousand paper cuts" as it were, with regards to quality-of-life design issues, and the unguided state of post-50 content. There are myriad little design annoyances with the game that when compounded, have a sizable affect on peoples' perceptions of the game. Combine that with the sink-or-swim nature of content once you reach L50, and it's no wonder server populations are already dwindling.

 

Theme-park MMO designs have reached an untenable situation of exponential costs + ever-shorter leveling curves. The theme-park style of MMO has reached a point of oversaturation -- people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played and expect more within weeks. IMHO the only way forward from here is to mix together elements of the Theme Park, with the Sandbox. Sandbox MMOs alone are too niche to be economically feasible or popular on a large scale. But having sandbox elements in a theme park design, would help subscribers weather the periods between content updates, and give them a reason to keep logging in. It would be the social hub that MMOs have been missing for quite some time.

 

MMOs in the past featured an extensive grind with few quests. My first character in EQ1 took 50 days /played to hit L50, for example. (18-20 days for WoW) But what current MMOs are missing is the social aspect of MMO gaming from the past -- sure you were grinding, but chatting with groupmates and those in the zone was just as important or moreso than leveling your character. This is one of the largest reasons the Korean market still prefers heavier grinds -- it's for the socializing. I think they need to lengthen out the leveling once more and tap more into the social aspects of MMOs. Social networking is so huge now -- why is it that Massively MULTIPLAYER games are such insular solo content these days?

 

If Bioware really wants SWTOR to succeed they need to first and foremost, provide more cohesive guidance on how to proceed at L50, but then also add in sandbox elements to give players ways to spend their time between patches. Player housing, a total revamp of the crafting system for a more meaningful meta-game, etc. Heck I think an amazing thing would be an EVE-like space part of the game that you could explore and carve out your own little niche, except far less ruthless than EVE, of course.

(Quality of life and Guidance issues I'll address in a separate thread)

 

This has been said a million times and now you stole 5 minutes of my life

[ForceCowboy]

Imo , why levels at all. Just make all content "highend".

 

I've been saying this for years. Stop with the levels and classes already. Just give us attributes and skills and a worlds to explore and let us go explore them. As we accomplish tasks in the world, award our characters with more points that we can use to raise our skills or attributes.

 

Put some story-line's in the game with voice acting, but let us decide on our own which stories we want to pursue. If I'm a Jedi that wants to take part in the great hunt, then let me go to the place where I sign up for the hunt and start that storyline.

 

I have an entire MMO locked away in my head with no financing to get it made, and the people who have millions of dollars to make new MMO's keep rehashing the same ideas over and over with different names tacked to them.

[Jumajin]

"people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played "

 

I'm sorry, but this isn't Bioware's problem. I love Star Wars and video games. I've personally put hours/days/weeks of time into my 3 characters. However, I have yet to hit 50 on any of them. Someone who hits 50 in 5 days has got too much gametime on their hands. You can't rush through content, then complain you're out of game to play. Take some time off, take a break, get a job, go outside. I understand the frustration of short games. Short games are why I primarily use GameFly these days and buy only a couple games a year. This game, however, isn't short, and with the storylines and legacy system it's clear Bioware intends people to replay. Yet those people who have the time, patience and dedication to get to 50 in 5 days then turn around and complain they don't want to do it again? It's crazy.

 

But it is Bioware's problem.

 

It's good that you have 3 characters you are working on at once. I started 3 days before the public launch and focused on a Bounty Hunter from 1-50 before I rolled an Alt. I grew tired of playing Alts and the same content multiple times, simultaneously, years ago. Nowadays I focus on one character at a time.

 

Now, a bit of information here: I work 55-60 hours a week owning my own RPG publishing company, and also being a full-time novel writer (with a literary agent, books published by companies other than my own)-- so that right there is a ton of non-game time. I also have four children: one just graduated, another is a teenager, one a pre-teen, and one about to hit 2 years old. A lot--- and I mean a lot-- of time there.

 

So, I don't always play for hours at a time, or even daily.

 

I finally hit level 50 on the Bounty Hunter. When I did /played, the time was roughly 5 1/2 days. And that is with having never hit spacebar through a quest, and doing each planet all the way through the offered Bonus Series (and going back to planets where the bonus series is a later level, like Alderaan).

 

My Jedi is already level 22.

 

And we are 7 weeks from launch, with this player not playing for hours every day--- heck, not even playing every day.

 

Unless someone does want to level multiple characters at once (and given the very linear leveling path, I'm not eager to do the same planet quests over and over again ad nauseum in this game), for those that play one character at a time, the leveling is way too fast, and endgame too sparse.

 

1) You can't have a fast leveling process and very little endgame, even at launch. Either slow down leveling and give yourself time to impliment endgame, or have endgame fleshed out and ready to go to be ready for your fast leveling system.

 

2) You can't try to force your playerbase into rolling Alts ad nauseum. Especially not when you don't have any semblance of alternate leveling paths.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Jumajin

[DarthKhaos]

Anyone who claims that sandbox games are dead has zero clue what they are talking about.

 

EVE Online and Perpetuum Online have had steady growth rates for long time. In fact, year after year they grow while dozens of themeparks dwindle down to FTP status due to lack of interest.

 

Then you take into account the fact that Minecraft, which isn't technically an MMO, has sold more than twice the copies of SWTOR. It's a sandbox in its purest form and millions of people play it daily.

 

Minecraft Users and Sales Statistics

 

Just the opposite is true. Sandbox is the future. Themeparks are going the way of the dodo and SWTOR may be the last final gasp before they die.

You need to understand what they're gauging success on. They're looking at numbers in the 1+ Million range. EvE Online doesn't have those numbers that's why most of the anti sandbox crowd discount its success. Zelda sold more copies than Mindcraft and that's a themepark so you don't really have a point there because MMO and Non MMO got a different player base even though they tend to overlap.

 

For me I didn't like EvE Online. I acknowledge it just wasn't my thing. I didn't rant or rave or say it sucked. It might be fouler than a huge pile of bantha poodoo but to me that didn't matter. YOU liked it and that's fine. I didn't and that's also fine. Just because a game caught my attention doesn't mean it's for me.

 

I find it utterly ridiculous people come on the forums and call players who say they like the game or is having fun fanboys or suckling on BioWare's sacks. They like it that's that. You don't move on. It shouldn't matter to you if the game succeeds or not because you wouldn't be playing.

 

If you do intend to "stick it out" there's not need to flame, just post your suggestions in a constructive manner and give things time because nothing can happen overnight.

[DarrkLore]

Theme-park MMO designs have reached an untenable situation of exponential costs + ever-shorter leveling curves. The theme-park style of MMO has reached a point of oversaturation -- people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played and expect more within weeks. IMHO the only way forward from here is to mix together elements of the Theme Park, with the Sandbox. Sandbox MMOs alone are too niche to be economically feasible or popular on a large scale. But having sandbox elements in a theme park design, would help subscribers weather the periods between content updates, and give them a reason to keep logging in. It would be the social hub that MMOs have been missing for quite some time.

 

MMOs in the past featured an extensive grind with few quests. My first character in EQ1 took 50 days /played to hit L50, for example. (18-20 days for WoW) But what current MMOs are missing is the social aspect of MMO gaming from the past -- sure you were grinding, but chatting with groupmates and those in the zone was just as important or moreso than leveling your character. This is one of the largest reasons the Korean market still prefers heavier grinds -- it's for the socializing. I think they need to lengthen out the leveling once more and tap more into the social aspects of MMOs. Social networking is so huge now -- why is it that Massively MULTIPLAYER games are such insular solo content these days?

 

If Bioware really wants SWTOR to succeed they need to first and foremost, provide more cohesive guidance on how to proceed at L50, but then also add in sandbox elements to give players ways to spend their time between patches. Player housing, a total revamp of the crafting system for a more meaningful meta-game, etc. Heck I think an amazing thing would be an EVE-like space part of the game that you could explore and carve out your own little niche, except far less ruthless than EVE, of course.

(Quality of life and Guidance issues I'll address in a separate thread)

 

I so agree. MMOs have become too watered down. It's much too easy to reach level cap and the longevity that MMOs once had is gone now. I used to disagree with people when they called TOR a single-player game but they're right. Sure there are a ton of people in the world, but most of the game's design is aimed at solo players thus making it play like a single player game.

 

But it's okay. Soon enough (hopefully) ArcheAge will be released and us MMO players of olde will finally have something on the market more fitted to our tastes.

[LizardSF]

 

I have an entire MMO locked away in my head with no financing to get it made, and the people who have millions of dollars to make new MMO's keep rehashing the same ideas over and over with different names tacked to them.

 

The millions of dollars they have didn't fall from the sky in the great Money Rain of '02.

 

Get the idea out of your head. Write up the specification documents, in detail. Get mock-ups of the interface created. Get artists to create concept art. Perform market analysis. Figure out what customers aren't served by current games and how you'll serve them. Perform cost estimates -- how many developers, how many years? Etc.

 

If you think you've got a billion dollar idea, convince investors to back you. (If the game costs 300-500 million to make, you need to convince people it will earn back at least a billion or so, over time, to make it remotely worth the risk.)

 

An "idea" isn't worth ****. Ideas are free. Prove to people with money that you can turn an idea into a reality, and that you can earn them more money than they could earn putting it somewhere else... and you'll have your game.

[LizardSF]

But it's okay. Soon enough (hopefully) ArcheAge will be released and us MMO players of olde will finally have something on the market more fitted to our tastes.

 

Didn't people say that about Darkfall?

And Dawntide?

And Shadowbane?

And....

[Drewser]

But it is Bioware's problem.

 

It's good that you have 3 characters you are working on at once. I started 3 days before the public launch and focused on a Bounty Hunter from 1-50 before I rolled an Alt. I grew tired of playing Alts and the same content multiple times, simultaneously, years ago. Nowadays I focus on one character at a time.

 

Now, a bit of information here: I work 55-60 hours a week owning my own RPG publishing company, and also being a full-time novel writer (with a literary agent, books published by companies other than my own)-- so that right there is a ton of non-game time. I also have four children: one just graduated, another is a teenager, one a pre-teen, and one about to hit 2 years old. A lot--- and I mean a lot-- of time there.

 

So, I don't always play for hours at a time, or even daily.

 

I finally hit level 50 on the Bounty Hunter. When I did /played, the time was roughly 5 1/2 days. And that is with having never hit spacebar through a quest, and doing each planet all the way through the offered Bonus Series (and going back to planets where the bonus series is a later level, like Alderaan).

 

My Jedi is already level 22.

 

And we are 7 weeks from launch, with this player not playing for hours every day--- heck, not even playing every day.

 

 

Based on your numbers you played about 18.8 hours per week just on your BH so you are averaging over 2.5 hours per day.

[Jett-Rinn]

I'm sorry, but you consider GW2 a ORPG and you don't consider TOR a ORPG? TOR is the first MMO I've ever felt like I actually BEAT.

 

Well yeah... GW2 aside from PVPing you really don't need a group or a guild....Can't complete a quest? Just find a district that isn't that populated or come back at a odd hour and it will ratchet down for you. Want to Run a Dungeon? There's a Pug for that and even though they said no Henchmen.....you can pretty much tell it's something that they are planning to add later.

 

In TOR you need a group there is a continual set of things to do Via the Operations Heroic Flashpoints and Dalies......honestly I wish TOR would have went more the GW2 route, as I said the reason I like GW2 is the reason most MMO players will hate it.

[Holden_Dissent]

Didn't people say that about Darkfall?

And Dawntide?

And Shadowbane?

And....

 

Mortal Online

[ocping]

I'm not sure about this theme-park vs sandbox argument but the comment about death by a thousand paper cuts is so true.

 

I'm gonna spend the next 10 minutes listing every single small detail I hate or have no idea why it got implemented

 

1) JUST IN: White-coloured flashing GCD animation

 

2) No good place to put my chatbox

 

3) The "selected" mob graphic is too inconspicuous to see sometimes, make it bigger

 

4) Tabbing makes no sense at all, it should cycle with priority to mobs closer to you

 

5) Can't move or resize hotbars

 

6) Can't resize buff / debuff icons (who the hell thought an icon the size of the mouse cursor was good deserves to be shot)

 

7) Can't tell which buffs / debuffs are your own

 

8) Map covers my top-right most 2 buttons

 

9) Buggy loot system in ops

 

10) Can't mount in ship docking areas

 

11) Waaaaay too many loading screens for inter-planetary travel

 

12) Mounts are slow as hell

 

13) Looking for people to do FPs is close to impossible for people with no guilds or guilds that don't do FPs

 

14) Horrendous customer support

 

15) Buggy backstab range / area

 

16) Stealth detection is further than non-stealthed range (i.e. if you stand in front of a boss or certain mobs at a certain range unstealthed you won't aggro but stealth and you'll get the red cursor and pull aggro if you don't LOS in like 2-3s)

 

17) Horrible concept that is Ilum

 

18) FPS issues (probably due to the choice of the engine)

 

19) Using an unproven engine that's now proving it's not good enough to even handle 80 people onscreen without ******** on your FPS with a mid-high-range computer

 

20) Galactic Trade Market is HORRIBLE

 

21) Can't search on GTN

 

22) Listing items on the GTN takes way longer than it should take

 

Feel free to add to the list all the small things you don't like.

[Ghaiana]

Although sandbox games can be nice at times, I don't have problems with games on rails (themeparks). One does not exclude the other for me and a change of pace is always nice. It would become really boring if every game was the same. The storylines in SWTOR are a change of pace and in that respect I don't care if this game is linear or not.

 

I never engage in endgames anyway, because I think they are silly gear grinds and because there are so many games released each year, that when I'm bored I just look up a new game. Most MMO's I play for 3 months to a year max, most single player games between 2 weeks and 3 months max.

 

I think diversity is what makes games interesting.

[Trenter]

I'm not sure about this theme-park vs sandbox argument but the comment about death by a thousand paper cuts is so true.

 

I'm gonna spend the next 10 minutes listing every single small detail I hate or have no idea why it got implemented

 

1) JUST IN: White-coloured flashing GCD animation

 

2) No good place to put my chatbox

 

3) The "selected" mob graphic is too inconspicuous to see sometimes, make it bigger

 

4) Tabbing makes no sense at all, it should cycle with priority to mobs closer to you

 

5) Can't move or resize hotbars

 

6) Can't resize buff / debuff icons (who the hell thought an icon the size of the mouse cursor was good deserves to be shot)

 

7) Can't tell which buffs / debuffs are your own

 

8) Map covers my top-right most 2 buttons

 

9) Buggy loot system in ops

 

10) Can't mount in ship docking areas

 

11) Waaaaay too many loading screens for inter-planetary travel

 

12) Mounts are slow as hell

 

13) Looking for people to do FPs is close to impossible for people with no guilds or guilds that don't do FPs

 

14) Horrendous customer support

 

15) Buggy backstab range / area

 

16) Stealth detection is further than non-stealthed range (i.e. if you stand in front of a boss or certain mobs at a certain range unstealthed you won't aggro but stealth and you'll get the red cursor and pull aggro if you don't LOS in like 2-3s)

 

17) Horrible concept that is Ilum

 

18) FPS issues (probably due to the choice of the engine)

 

19) Using an unproven engine that's now proving it's not good enough to even handle 80 people onscreen without ******** on your FPS with a mid-high-range computer

 

20) Galactic Trade Market is HORRIBLE

 

21) Can't search on GTN

 

22) Listing items on the GTN takes way longer than it should take

 

Feel free to add to the list all the small things you don't like.

 

Perhaps you should start your own thread and not hijack this one?