Are Sith really evil?

[Leklor]

Sith never commited Genocide of the scale of what Revan was preparing?

Certainly, but since it was barely a Republic sanctionned op (None of the Pub player characters are asked to help nor do they seem to know what happened and what Revan planned, implying that the Republic was pretty much leaving Revan to his own devices and just gave him some troops/he took them/they volunteered because "Revan".) it can neither be attributed to the Republic nor the Jedi (It's implied to have been Vitiate's intention all the way.)

 

However, the Sith did lots of horrible things, all along their history including but not limited to:

-The Massacre of Aquilaris (New Sith Empire Era 1042 BBY)

-Operation Knightfall/ Order 66 (I count it because it was specifically ordered by Sidious)

-Bombardment of Bosph (Ordered by Sidious, planet became unhabitable.)

-The Conclave at Katarr (Nihilus killed every force-sensitive on the planet. Katarr being a Miraluka colony, everyone save for Visas Marr was killed)

-Battle of Dathomir (Near extinction of the Nightsisters by Dooku and Grievous)

-You could count Alderaan since Vader sanctioned it.

-The destruction of Taris by Malak and it took several centuries to finally partially rebuild only for the Sith Empire to destroy it AGAIN!

-The extermination of the Gen'Dai Homeworld by the Sith Empire, prior to SWTOR (Implied to be several billions dead and the rest were enslaved).

-The Devastation of Da Soocha, in the Legacy comic (Nearly all of the oceanic life was wiped out, and all the Mon Calamari refugees on Nadpu, the fourth moon were killed. That was following the complete extermination of their homeworld, Dac, by Dark Krayt).

 

And I stopped at the letter "D", that should give you an idea now (Taken from the "Genocides and Massacres" section on Wookieepedia).

Add to that Vitiate plan to kill every living being in the galaxy and Revan's plan (Which, I insist, I doubt was fully Republic sanctionned) that never actually happenend seems rather inconsequantial.

[Rhyltran]

Oh man, i go away to sleep and the entire forum blows up.

 

Well before trying to answer all of yours point i just want to clear this up.

I am not saying the Sith are good guys. I think comparing the republic and the sith is like comparing Nazi Germany and The Soviet Union, both are horrible systems of government. And in the last few posts, this has turned into a subjective moral question, which is not really smart discussing since there are no straight right or wrong there. Only opinions.

I think its unacceptable to take young kids to a fanatical order and indoctrinate them, even if their parents agree. You might feel differently, its all just opinions.

 

Can't we all agree that genocide is unacceptable though? I mean there is no way anyone can justify Revan trying to kill 97.8% of the Imperial population.

AND ONCE AGAIN! I am not bashing Revan, i understood he was probably distraught after years of mind control. I am bashing the Republic and the jedi for sending an entire flipping fleet to defend his attempted genocide.

Genocide is not cool.

 

And before you even say "uuuh but the sith do the same" NO. NO. I know they do the same. Go back to what a wrote a few rows ago. I am not saying the Sith are good guys. Its worthless telling me about what the sith do wrong, i'm not arguing against that. I agree that many things the Empire does is unacceptable. My point is that the Republic does some ******* crazy things too, and we should not overlook that.

I might have formulated myself badly so i seemed like i said something else, in which case my fault. But that's the point i'm trying to make.

 

So hopefully this will stop the endless arguments of "But the sith are evil" I know. I know. Believe me. I know.

 

 

Now, TO THE ARGUMENTS! *batman music*

 

"One of the first side quests on Tython was a Jedi (not a child) who couldn't do the training. He was obviously strong enough to use the force and get to tython, but not strong enough to become a Jedi (though I think that was a little rash on his Master's part...but who knows, there may have been other missions he failed at constantly). But when we say he deserves a second chance, the master says okay, so there's that saying it was his first mission (so back to master being rash)."

 

No. Go and play it again. The master expected him to fail on those trials, but he did them so that the padawan could learn humility. He was almost kicked out of the order because he cheated by asking for help by the player. So no, he doesn't risk getting kicked because of his abilities, he risks getting kicked because he cheats.

 

I think Khevar makes an excellent point.

The jedi council and the senate is extremely corrupt and inefficient. But as individuals Jedi are better. I 100% agree.

But the jedi order as a whole uses many flawed concepts.

 

 

"Man u take it really wrong...

Jedi are not slave of the senate, they follow their orders because there is diplomacy in republic. Jedi work for the republic, think them as spec ops of today. If u are a specops soldier and obama says u to go and kill the bin ladin would u say "Shut up u idiot im a god dam spec ops soldier i do what ever i want go fu** ur as*." NO. Same applies for jedi. Supreme chancellor and the ministers of republic are choosen by the majority. U listen their orders."

 

Sigh....

I genuinely facepalmed reading this. Well first off Bin Laden is a horrible comparison. Bin Laden was a terrorists killing thousands of innocent, that's not the same as killing 97.8% of the Imperial Population based on their genetics.

 

Not even closely the same.

If someone orders you to defend genocide, and you do it. Then you are as much of a villain as they are.

"The only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing"

The jedi never disobey the senate, they did nothing to stop Revan's attempted genocide. The only reason it was stopped was because of the Empire and the Sith.

In the perspective the Sith stopped genocide and the Jedi enforced it.

And the senate is corrupt as ****. If you honestly believe that the Republic is a democracy then you either haven't read much about Star Wars or you are incredibly naive.

The senate is not ruled by the populus of the Republic, its ruled by money, lust for power and personal vendettas. Just like modern politics.

The will of the people is but a minor annoyance. After all the jedi do whatever the council wants, so it would be useless to rebel against the senate.

 

 

And before you dare say "But the jedi can disobey!" No. No they cant.

Ladies and gentlemen of the Jury, i point you to Jedi Knight prologue on Tython.

After getting Jedi Master Orgus Din as your master you go to his chambers to collect your gear. There he asks you if you have any questions, you can question him about the republic. I quote.

 

"The Republic shouldn't be telling the Jedi what to do." - Jedi Knight

 

Master Orgus Din: "Forgot how impressionable Padawans can be. Remember, Jedi exist to serve the Republic--even when we disagree."

 

 

AHA! Finally some facts in this thread of opinions. You cant argue against this, that is exactly what Master Din said. He is a member of the Jedi Council, if he says it, its probably pretty widely accepted.

 

 

 

 

THIS ^

 

This is what I've been trying to say (very badly from my part) This is what i mean. Both orders are bad. The jedis are not galactic heroes, they are people like everyone else. And all people have the capacity for great good and great evil.

The jedi are no exception.

 

 

 

Now i hope that this will calm down, and that opinions will be panned out and that facts will emerge.

 

You need to stop bringing up genocide and Revan. The council did not believe in or condone what Revan was doing. Just like they didn't when he went off to fight in the mandalorian wars. The Jedi that followed him were swayed by his charisma (one of Revan's most powerful attributes) and abandoned their teachings to go help him in his mad quest. Revan is not a proper Jedi. He never was. There's a reason why when he returned to the Jedi they wouldn't give him a place on the council even with how powerful he was. In the Revan novel he didn't really feel welcomed in the order and he felt like their eyes were always on him. Even the Jedi order did NOT trust Revan.

 

Yes the Jedi serve the republic but that isn't the Jedi's fault really. The Jedi are very powerful force users and in order to have so many powerful beings and to be allowed to continue to train Jedi they had to sign off in order to join the republic. However, the Jedi have a history where if they strongly disagree they won't follow the republic. They didn't (aside from revan his jedi) during the mandalorian wars and they refused to stand by the republic during the genocide in the great hyperspace war. For the most part the Jedi have to serve or the republic will come down on the order out of fear of having a powerful militarized force group that is right in their backyard.

 

Based of Mein Kampf. Yes I've heard that too. But ill question it.

I understand the simile between the Empire and Nazi Germany. But Nazi Germany hated people and prosecuted them just for the sake of hating people and prosecuting them. The Jews never did anything to the German but were yet blamed for almost everything.

The sith are different, you can't deny that there are many races involved in the Empire. They might be discriminated, yes. But not prosecuted solely based on their race.

I think its a better comparison to take modern day American and the Empire.

Extremely jingoistic, militaristic, xenophobic and fairly discriminating against minorities.

 

But its not to the grade where they kill thousands of people based on their race. Examples of this is of course, Darth Tenebrous or Darth Plagueis.

Both were aliens, both were able to become high ranking leaders of the Sith order. Being an alien in the Empire doesn't automatically means that you are dead, it does mean that you will have to work much harder to achieve things in your life because of the massive jingoism and Xenophobia of The Empire.

 

So no, i don't doubt that he did base the sith code of Mein Kampf. But i think he did it poorly, because the Empire at least gives people a chance.

A small chance albeit, but still a chance.

 

 

I would agree, the empire are bad guys if it wasn't for that small detail that the Republic did try to commit genocide.

 

Now i know quite a lot of you are bigger star wars nerds than me, so i wouldn't mind if you corrected me. But from what i know, the Sith have never committed genocide on such a massive scale.

 

As said before, i'm not justifying the Empire, i'm explaining why the Republic are not good guys.

They are both bad, its a classic Soviet Union vs Nazi Germany situation.

I would prefer if they both lost.

 

 

Grey jedis for life!

 

Incorrect again! The alien races were not only discriminated against but were seen as no better than slaves. Until Makeb aliens are not allowed official ranks in the sith military nor are they allowed citizenship. The alien races serve as slaves, pets, or worse under the hands of Sith. Malgus was the one who realized the folly and stupidity in this so he set out to make change. You can't point to a Sith order that existed after this reformation and even then Palpatine heavily discriminated against aliens. Going back to many of the old ways of the Sith. The rule of two didn't discriminate only because you needed a powerful apprentice. If an alien is all you have then that's all you have but even Palpatine's empire was heavily xenophobic with many of the same problems in the former Sith empire.

 

The Sith have always made "Force Users" an exception to the rule where even slaves were allowed to be taught as Sith. That doesn't suddenly point to fair or equal treatment to the rest of the other alien species. Also yes they did kill aliens for psort. Slaughtered them and brutalized entire worlds just because "alien." in fact as the inquisitor when talking to Adronikos he asks for your backstory. One of the options is to claim that as an alien they killed your people and family for sport. When you went to defend yourself and them they realized your force potential, took you down, and hauled you off to the academy.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Rhyltran

[SithKoriandr]

Based of Mein Kampf. Yes I've heard that too. But ill question it.

I understand the simile between the Empire and Nazi Germany. But Nazi Germany hated people and prosecuted them just for the sake of hating people and prosecuting them. The Jews never did anything to the German but were yet blamed for almost everything.

The sith are different, you can't deny that there are many races involved in the Empire. They might be discriminated, yes. But not prosecuted solely based on their race.

I think its a better comparison to take modern day American and the Empire.

Extremely jingoistic, militaristic, xenophobic and fairly discriminating against minorities.

 

But its not to the grade where they kill thousands of people based on their race. Examples of this is of course, Darth Tenebrous or Darth Plagueis.

Both were aliens, both were able to become high ranking leaders of the Sith order. Being an alien in the Empire doesn't automatically means that you are dead, it does mean that you will have to work much harder to achieve things in your life because of the massive jingoism and Xenophobia of The Empire.

 

So no, i don't doubt that he did base the sith code of Mein Kampf. But i think he did it poorly, because the Empire at least gives people a chance.

A small chance albeit, but still a chance.

 

 

I would agree, the empire are bad guys if it wasn't for that small detail that the Republic did try to commit genocide.

 

Now i know quite a lot of you are bigger star wars nerds than me, so i wouldn't mind if you corrected me. But from what i know, the Sith have never committed genocide on such a massive scale.

 

As said before, i'm not justifying the Empire, i'm explaining why the Republic are not good guys.

They are both bad, its a classic Soviet Union vs Nazi Germany situation.

I would prefer if they both lost.

 

 

Grey jedis for life!

 

Not discriminate based on race? Of course they do. They mention it many times in the storyline. Like in Rep side Quesh, when the Zabarak betrays the Republic and the Sith Lord tells him "Yes. You were a fool to ever believe us."

 

As much as one can be a light sided Sith (the warrior specifically says they're hiding it from the others, if the player chooses to be a LS warrior) that doesn't make the Sith as a whole good.

 

Yes. Sith as a whole are evil.

 

No. Jedi as a whole aren't evil.

 

Yes. If you have a system of government there is bound to be corruption, especially in a free system of government.

 

The politicians (not all of them) of the Republic are open to taking bribes and making choices for the government based on what solely helps them. As a whole they, they don't condone (though there are some who wish to enact it) slavery. The leaders don't generally kill their underlings (without it being covert and hoping not to be found out).

 

The Empire on the other hand is generally open to taking bribes. You're not a Sith? You're a second class citizen (go play that Agent storyline, it's stated as much).

 

Yes, there have been Jedi who have done some bad things and have fallen away from the order (maybe wishing to return later) and there are those who call themselves Jedi who aren't part of the Jedi (The Green Jedi for instance put Correllia above the Jedi Order).

 

Outside of the PCs, tell me of the Sith who are known for being Lightsided.

Edited September 8, 2015 by SithKoriandr

[CaptainFerrum]

First off, its really fun discussing a fictional scenario in a serious matter but sometimes i am convinced that all of you are in a secret order that has decided to find my every post and misinterpret everything just to annoy me.

 

Like this

Not discriminate based on race? Of course they do. They mention it many times in the storyline. Like in Rep side Quesh, when the Zabarak betrays the Republic and the Sith Lord tells him "Yes. You were a fool to ever believe us."

 

For the sake of Baras's hairy ******s! I QUOTE MYSELF!

The sith are different, you can't deny that there are many races involved in the Empire. They might be discriminated, yes. But not prosecuted solely based on their race.

I am saying they are being discriminated for focks sake.

Are you guys doing this just to annoy me, or is that just a bonus?

 

You need to stop bringing up genocide and Revan. The council did not believe in or condone what Revan was doing. Just like they didn't when he went off to fight in the mandalorian wars. The Jedi that followed him were swayed by his charisma (one of Revan's most powerful attributes) and abandoned their teachings to go help him in his mad quest. Revan is not a proper Jedi. He never was. There's a reason why when he returned to the Jedi they wouldn't give him a place on the council even with how powerful he was. In the Revan novel he didn't really feel welcomed in the order and he felt like their eyes were always on him. Even the Jedi order did NOT trust Revan.

 

No.

I wont stop bringing up Revan and his attempted genocide. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

The jedis might have not trusted him, the Republic might have not sanctioned it.

 

But they are still responsible for it. They released Revan, they did nothing to stop him from wandering the galaxy despite the fact that they knew he had been through severe mental torture.

They sent an entire battle fleet to defend it.

If it was intentional or not they did defend genocide.

And i wont stop mentioning it, because it is clear evidence that the Republic does do evil stuff.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its not true.

 

 

Yes the Jedi serve the republic but that isn't the Jedi's fault really. The Jedi are very powerful force users and in order to have so many powerful beings and to be allowed to continue to train Jedi they had to sign off in order to join the republic. However, the Jedi have a history where if they strongly disagree they won't follow the republic. They didn't (aside from revan his jedi) during the mandalorian wars and they refused to stand by the republic during the genocide in the great hyperspace war. For the most part the Jedi have to serve or the republic will come down on the order out of fear of having a powerful militarized force group that is right in their backyard

 

It isn't the jedis fault that they are willingly agreeing to doing whatever the Senate commands?

 

And the Mandalorian wars. That is a poor example. It was more of an intervention of the Republic military's behalf. And while the jedi didn't help they didn't do much to stop Revan and Malak.

"Oh no.... Don't go please...Please come back... Or don't, its fine"

 

The Mandalorian wars is more like World War II in a geopolitical sense. The Republic was not the target of the Mandalorians, the republic attacked them and they started fighting each other after that. The jedi didn't join because it was more of an intervention than an actual threat to the republic (at first atleast)

 

But honestly, how can you not blame the jedi for this.

Its like not blaming the prison guards of Auschwitz. Sure they didn't have much of a choice, but they still saw genocide and did nothing to stop it.

The Jedi order is enormous, the republic would NEVER be able to root them out. Especially since half the Republic military would likely join the Jedi if they were attacked.

 

The only reason the Jedi follow the Republic is because they want to. And thats fine. But over the years it has escalated to the point where the Jedis do whatever the **** the Senate asks them to do.

Even if that is defending the foundry.

 

 

Incorrect again! The alien races were not only discriminated against but were seen as no better than slaves. Until Makeb aliens are not allowed official ranks in the sith military nor are they allowed citizenship. The alien races serve as slaves, pets, or worse under the hands of Sith. Malgus was the one who realized the folly and stupidity in this so he set out to make change. You can't point to a Sith order that existed after this reformation and even then Palpatine heavily discriminated against aliens. Going back to many of the old ways of the Sith. The rule of two didn't discriminate only because you needed a powerful apprentice. If an alien is all you have then that's all you have but even Palpatine's empire was heavily xenophobic with many of the same problems in the former Sith empire.

 

The Sith have always made "Force Users" an exception to the rule where even slaves were allowed to be taught as Sith. That doesn't suddenly point to fair or equal treatment to the rest of the other alien species. Also yes they did kill aliens for psort. Slaughtered them and brutalized entire worlds just because "alien." in fact as the inquisitor when talking to Adronikos he asks for your backstory. One of the options is to claim that as an alien they killed your people and family for sport. When you went to defend yourself and them they realized your force potential, took you down, and hauled you off to the academy.

 

Well the sith inquisitor said so to a freelance pirate, must be true.

 

Once again, do you guys either have Alzheimers or do you not read what i write?

 

I quote myself. AGAIN.

I think its a better comparison to take modern day American and the Empire.

Extremely jingoistic, militaristic, xenophobic and fairly discriminating against minorities.

 

Come on guys, i am not denying the Empire is discriminating aliens. I just stated that the Empire is highly jingoistic and xenophobic.

The SITH does discriminate aliens. The SITH does hunt them for sport. But the average Imperial soldier probably has no problem with aliens.

 

Aliens are being discriminated. I have never claimed they are not.

I am saying they are not being it on the same level as Nazi Germany.

Name for me one ONE jewish or gay German general in the 1940's.

Have fun trying.

 

And here is a list of Imperial aliens in the army and in politics.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Imperial_non-Humans

 

And that's just the gosh darn galactic empire. Don't get me started on the Sith empire.

 

The Empire is discriminatory. But there are aliens in high ranks which is a lot better then what Nazi Germany could do.

 

 

 

You can draw similes between any two factions in history.

I could draw similes between Family guy and the jedi. Teletubbies and the sith.

 

You can draw similes between anything. That doesn't mean they are the same.

 

 

The Empire is evil, but they are NOT nazi Germany.

 

In the words of the assassin Solentz.

"Get it through your damn heads"

 

 

 

 

 

Now please, please i am begging you. Don't put words in my mouth, i don't know how to reply to them. I don't want to insult you but at the same time it is infuriating.

Edited September 8, 2015 by CaptainFerrum

[Rhyltran]

First off, its really fun discussing a fictional scenario in a serious matter but sometimes i am convinced that all of you are in a secret order that has decided to find my every post and misinterpret everything just to annoy me.

 

Like this

 

 

For the sake of Baras's hairy ******s! I QUOTE MYSELF!

 

I am saying they are being discriminated for focks sake.

Are you guys doing this just to annoy me, or is that just a bonus?

 

 

 

No.

I wont stop bringing up Revan and his attempted genocide. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

The jedis might have not trusted him, the Republic might have not sanctioned it.

 

But they are still responsible for it. They released Revan, they did nothing to stop him from wandering the galaxy despite the fact that they knew he had been through severe mental torture.

They sent an entire battle fleet to defend it.

If it was intentional or not they did defend genocide.

And i wont stop mentioning it, because it is clear evidence that the Republic does do evil stuff.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its not true.

 

 

 

 

It isn't the jedis fault that they are willingly agreeing to doing whatever the Senate commands?

 

And the Mandalorian wars. That is a poor example. It was more of an intervention of the Republic military's behalf. And while the jedi didn't help they didn't do much to stop Revan and Malak.

"Oh no.... Don't go please...Please come back... Or don't, its fine"

 

The Mandalorian wars is more like World War II in a geopolitical sense. The Republic was not the target of the Mandalorians, the republic attacked them and they started fighting each other after that. The jedi didn't join because it was more of an intervention than an actual threat to the republic (at first atleast)

 

But honestly, how can you not blame the jedi for this.

Its like not blaming the prison guards of Auschwitz. Sure they didn't have much of a choice, but they still saw genocide and did nothing to stop it.

The Jedi order is enormous, the republic would NEVER be able to root them out. Especially since half the Republic military would likely join the Jedi if they were attacked.

 

The only reason the Jedi follow the Republic is because they want to. And thats fine. But over the years it has escalated to the point where the Jedis do whatever the **** the Senate asks them to do.

Even if that is defending the foundry.

 

 

 

 

Well the sith inquisitor said so to a freelance pirate, must be true.

 

Once again, do you guys either have Alzheimers or do you not read what i write?

 

I quote myself. AGAIN.

 

 

Come on guys, i am not denying the Empire is discriminating aliens. I just stated that the Empire is highly jingoistic and xenophobic.

The SITH does discriminate aliens. The SITH does hunt them for sport. But the average Imperial soldier probably has no problem with aliens.

 

Aliens are being discriminated. I have never claimed they are not.

I am saying they are not being it on the same level as Nazi Germany.

Name for me one ONE jewish or gay German general in the 1940's.

Have fun trying.

 

And here is a list of Imperial aliens in the army and in politics.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Imperial_non-Humans

 

And that's just the gosh darn galactic empire. Don't get me started on the Sith empire.

 

The Empire is discriminatory. But there are aliens in high ranks which is a lot better then what Nazi Germany could do.

 

 

 

You can draw similes between any two factions in history.

I could draw similes between Family guy and the jedi. Teletubbies and the sith.

 

You can draw similes between anything. That doesn't mean they are the same.

 

 

The Empire is evil, but they are NOT nazi Germany.

 

In the words of the assassin Solentz.

"Get it through your damn heads"

 

 

 

 

 

Now please, please i am begging you. Don't put words in my mouth, i don't know how to reply to them. I don't want to insult you but at the same time it is infuriating.

 

Blaming the Jedi for revan is a stretch when they didn't know what he was doing. He also seemed stable enough when he was rescued. Even so it's not the Jedi's way to imprison someone because they "might" have mental disorders. Did you forget what I said before? Since you keep saying that we forgot what you wrote (which we didn't.)? The Jedi don't force people to do anything. It's not their job to detain Revan. It's not their job to tell him what to do. He went off, convinced Jedi to join him, and even some republic commanders to do so as well. That republic battlecruiser wasn't acting in accordance to the Republic government. So you're blaming the Jedi for not getting to him before the Sith? Of course they wouldn't. He didn't attack them.

 

You're going to blame the Jedi for not getting involved with the mandalorian wars? Then neutral countries must be the most evil people on the entire planet. How dare they not get involved in the various wars/strife in other countries! The republic didn't stop Revan and the other Jedi during the mandalorian wars because the republic was all for fighting the Mandalorians. What should they have done? The republic considered Revan a hero. What the Jedi did do was step in when Revan decided to create his own empire to destroy the Republic.

 

You're reaching.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Saya_Diva]

The republic just screams good morality...

 

Lets take a look..

Genocide of the Geonosian's

Genocide of the Sith Race

The Great Hyperspace War

Firrereo Genocide

First Great Schism

Destruction of Confederacy of Independent Systems

 

I could go on and on the worst part was how hypocritical The Republic and Jedi are.

[SithKoriandr]

The Sith have wiped out planets. Destroyed entire planets. This is before Alderaan. The Emperor just recently wiped out Ziost, you don't get more Empire than that, even if the Darth Council wants to be free of him.

 

It's not that the Empire hasn't committed massive genocide, it's that it's considered par for the course for them. Republic does it, it's big news.

 

If you're going to consider Revan a Jedi, you have to consider him a Sith, as he was a Sith at one point too. Revan is a powerful force user, and just another point of why the Jedi have their code. Emotions aren't bad, but look what they do to normal people. They get pissed, they go out, grab a gun and kill people. They get in a car and drown themselves and their kids.

 

Now imagine what someone in that mental state would do, when they have enough force ability to destroy a planet.

 

Sith revel in that, Jedi and most people do not. Jedi try to stop it by strict codes. We the players realize it's extreme, but that's just part of the fiction, and likely why our PCs are much more likely to be neutral (on either side of the faction line) or LS/DS I versus truely evil or truely good.

 

Nazi is Nazi is Nazi is evil

[Joachimthbear]

The republic just screams good morality...

 

Lets take a look.

I'm no expert on the Expanded Universe and Wookieepedia isn't helping me understand all of these. Could you explain some of these in a bit more detail?

 

Genocide of the Geonosian's

Closest I can find is "Sterilization of Geonosis":

The Sterilization of Geonosis took place on the Outer Rim planet of Geonosis sometime before the Battle of Yavin during the reign of the Galactic Empire. The Empire wiped out almost the entire population of Geonosians using bombs and other foreign weapons.

The date given is "at least five years after the end of the clone wars".

 

Firrereo Genocide

Wookieepedia says:

The Firrereo Genocide was initiated by the Galactic Empire through the Procurator of Justice Hethrir to wipe out all life forms on the planet Firrerre, particularly the sentient Firrerreo.

It was in 4 BBY, well after Palpatine took control of the Republic.

 

First Great Schism

Wookieepedia doesn't mention the Republic having any role in this. It reads like it was basically a civil war among Jedi, though obviously Republic worlds became the battlefields.

 

Destruction of Confederacy of Independent Systems

In what sense? From the moment the Confederacy came into existence, war was inevitable, not because of any Republic policy but because that's what the Confederacy was for. Palpatine and Dooku set the whole thing up so that there would be a war. Palpatine controlled the Republic in the final stages of the war and oversaw the Confederacy's defeat. Everything that happened to the Confederacy and its people was part of Palpatine's plan.

[Leklor]

Blaming the Great Hyperspace War on the Republic is just a new "thing" for the Empire.

First of all, it was the Sith Empire, then in a middle of a golden age, who decided to use Jori and Gav Daragon to return to the Koros sytem and conquer it then the Republic.

Second: Many if not most of the losses on the Sith side were the result on infighting and power plays between warlords.

Third: The Republic itself was barely involved in the war, besides the battle of Coruscant which was a Sith defeat but at an enormous cost.

Fourth: The "genocide" of the Sith species was the act of the Koros forces, led by Empress Theta and divorced from the Republic from quite some time.

 

Claiming the Republic commited genocide against the pureblooded Siths is a lie. They fought a war and due to their own recklessness, the Sith lost everything.

 

Now, as pointed out by Joachimthebear, most of the exemples listed by Saya_Diva are actually the act of the Galactic Empire, NOT the Republic. And even the Confederation systems weren't ravaged or massacred after the Clone Wars. Be it in the Legends continuity (Dark Times show Imperial officers executing corrupt locals for murdering ex-separatists refugees) and current continuity (Tarkin and other novels explain that the CSI-alligned system went back into the fold with a bit of military pressure but no large scale genocide happened.).

[Rhyltran]

The republic just screams good morality...

 

Lets take a look..

Genocide of the Geonosian's

Genocide of the Sith Race

The Great Hyperspace War

Firrereo Genocide

First Great Schism

Destruction of Confederacy of Independent Systems

 

I could go on and on the worst part was how hypocritical The Republic and Jedi are.

 

No.

 

Genocide of the Geonosians? That was done by the galactic empire. You know. The Empire founded by the Sith Lord Darth Sidious. So nope. That was done by the Sith.

 

Genocide of the Sith Race? Yeah, that was the republic but the Jedi strongly disagreed with this.

 

Great Hyper Space War? Nope. The Sith started that fight and wouldn't give up. It led to the extermination of the Sith species but it doesn't change the fact that the war was started by the Sith and lasted for over a thousand years.

 

Firrerreo? This was also caused by the Galactic Empire. You know. The Empire founded by Darth Sidious. Once again, Sith.

 

First Great Schism? You mean, the civil war between light and dark side users that the dark side users started? You mean how, even when asked to surrender, fought until the last man? Nope. Not a genocide. They literally fought until the last man. Read the comics.

 

Destruction of Confederacy of Independent Systems - You do know those are the separatists right? You know, the ones created in secret by Sidious to lead the republic into war? Oh, and the republic was at war with them right? You know who truly exterminated them? Sidious. Remember the scene with Anakin becoming Vader and slaughtering their leaders? Yeah, that was the event. So once again. Sidious.

 

So to prove the Jedi and Republic are evil you only have one genocide to go by and list a bunch of genocides created by Darth Sidious.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Yezzan]

Sith are evil. The argument is indisputable. Any rational person would agree, and arguments to the contrary are exercises in futility. Draw inferences from the quintessential Sith from the times of old up to Darth Sidious's era.

[kamikosong]

I'm not sure that "Peace is a lie" is actually a bad thing to start with, it's not pretty, but it's honest. I see it as more of a reality then a declaration of war.

 

"Peace is a lie"

That says to me that there is truly no stable, lasting "peace" in life. It does not always mean war, but struggle in your life. You struggle with daily problems, challenges and your own nature. Claiming you have found true peace is a falsehood-learning a new skill is a challenge, or going to a new place or growing as a being.

The entirety of life is a struggle-not always violence but always a struggle.

Hence "Peace is a lie."

 

How they are portrayed in this game does make me laugh. Very hammer horror "I R evul hurr hurr DIEEEE!!!"

Nothing in the Sith Creed says backstab, betray and casually murder everything. Not one line does. It does say unleash yourself, don't be bound and follow your passions. Something which would lead certain people to the extremes we see in the game.

Many of the characters in the game simply are not believable. The empire as it's portrayed in SWTOR I wouldn't give a year in real life, why?

Because everyone is always trying to backstab one another for no reason! Grats you just betrayed your master and took his position through a clever plan! Good job! But eh oh! he/she only taught you 75% of what they know....now we have a Darth that is weaker than the previous one times that by a few and the Sith as a whole are weaker...derp?

 

Which is why Beniko and Marr for me at least seem more believable-they both know that approach is braindead and is defeating the empire faster than the republic ever could....

 

Plus just because you are a dark side user why would you be a plain douche? You could be perfectly civil AND be a sith.....sometimes the writing in SWTOR just doesn't make sense.....

[Rhyltran]

"Peace is a lie"

That says to me that there is truly no stable, lasting "peace" in life. It does not always mean war, but struggle in your life. You struggle with daily problems, challenges and your own nature. Claiming you have found true peace is a falsehood-learning a new skill is a challenge, or going to a new place or growing as a being.

The entirety of life is a struggle-not always violence but always a struggle.

Hence "Peace is a lie."

 

How they are portrayed in this game does make me laugh. Very hammer horror "I R evul hurr hurr DIEEEE!!!"

Nothing in the Sith Creed says backstab, betray and casually murder everything. Not one line does. It does say unleash yourself, don't be bound and follow your passions. Something which would lead certain people to the extremes we see in the game.

Many of the characters in the game simply are not believable. The empire as it's portrayed in SWTOR I wouldn't give a year in real life, why?

Because everyone is always trying to backstab one another for no reason! Grats you just betrayed your master and took his position through a clever plan! Good job! But eh oh! he/she only taught you 75% of what they know....now we have a Darth that is weaker than the previous one times that by a few and the Sith as a whole are weaker...derp?

 

Which is why Beniko and Marr for me at least seem more believable-they both know that approach is braindead and is defeating the empire faster than the republic ever could....

 

Plus just because you are a dark side user why would you be a plain douche? You could be perfectly civil AND be a sith.....sometimes the writing in SWTOR just doesn't make sense.....

 

That's because there's more to be Sith than following the code. The code has specific meaning in the context of the Sith. It's not just this game but the Sith are portrayed this way in the entire history of star wars. Just like in religion. You can follow the ten commandments for instance while not being a true christian. People think following the code makes you Sith. It doesn't. Ventress thought the same thing and Dooku told her she was no Sith.

 

You have to look to the founders. What did they think Sith means? What was their aim in founding the philosophy? Ignoring what the original founders intended with the code is ignoring what it means to be Sith. Peace is a lie does mean war because it's meant to be taken literally. Peace is a lie in all things. Peace is stagnation in the eyes of Sith. You have an empire and you're not spreading out your influence/territory? You are becoming stagnant. Weak. You hate someone but you don't aim to destroy them?

 

You aren't following your passions. You aren't channeling your strength. Sith also teach mercy is a weakness. A sith is not merciful. The sith teach if there's an opportunity you take it. No matter what that means. So if you are alone, no witnesses, and there's no way killing your boss could ever come back to you (when you're next in line for his position) and you don't kill him? You are a weak fool who allowed an opportunity to slip by due to your own moral code. (By the way morality is a chain as well. Sith feel that good and evil are concepts that hold no value or meaning to Sith.)

 

To a Sith you shouldn't be bound by morality. To the Sith they AREN'T bound by morality.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Joachimthbear]

Plus just because you are a dark side user why would you be a plain douche? You could be perfectly civil AND be a sith.....sometimes the writing in SWTOR just doesn't make sense.....

It's also important to bear in mind that the Dark Side has always been shown to be addictive and corruptive. You might start out with the best of intentions, but over time it changes you, and you find it harder and harder to turn back.

[EmporerJaing]

I really truly do not care what you think, I've been shocking people ever since launch. We are evil and boy are we proud!

[OldVengeance]

Revan was not a Jedi, he was crazy.

 

It always baffles me when people try to imagine the Sith are portrayed incorrectly in the game whenever they are shown to be evil. That's not a bad stereotype, that's how they are supposed to act.

 

Vader, Palpatine, Maul and Dooku were our only examples of Sith from the movies. They were all unambiguously villains. That's how Sith are. As are all the most famous EU Sith. The code is supposed to explain why they are villains, not to explain that they are actually doing it wrong.

Edited September 9, 2015 by OldVengeance

[Siadhail]

Yes, the Sith really are evil. Yes, the Jedi really are good.

 

The entirety of the Sith philosophy revolves around selfishness, while the entirety of the Jedi philosophy revolves around selflessness.

 

A true Sith wants to become the most powerful entity in the universe and subdue absolutely everything to its own will. A true Jedi simply wants to do what is right.

 

The problem arises when we see the Jedi defending a decadent capitalist Republic ruled by rich corrupt elite. The Sith Empire provides a stark contrast to this as even slaves have the potential to work themselves to the very top (as is the case of the Inquisitor).

 

So yes, the Sith philosophy is evil. It embraces the dark side and encourages violence and murder. And the Jedi philosophy is good. It embraces the light side and encourages peace and kindness. But are the Jedi and Sith like this in practice? Usually, yes. But not always. And it's that not always that is the problem. The Jedi should not be supporting a Republic that actively encourages a huge rich-poor gap. The Sith, on the other hand, have the perfect system for their philosophy. It rewards merit rather than wealth. But their philosophy itself is the weakness. When everyone is out for themselves, the no one is helping each other. This is why the Sith always ultimately fail. They end up killing each other off and cause their great empires to fall.

 

A Jedi Empire would pretty much be the perfect system if Jedi were allowed to marry. I would be rather unbeatable, people would be promoted on merit, and because of the Jedi way, there wouldn't be any poverty. No one would be homeless. No one would be starving. And with a galaxy's worth of resources, you can't tell me that this couldn't be done. But, because the Jedi always shy away from power, this would never happen. And that is one of the Jedi's greatest faults, that they look at a position of authority as a position of power rather than a position of responsibility, a responsibility that would be best left to people like them rather than corrupt politicians or evil Sith. A true Jedi without selfish desires and only benevolent thoughts would make a perfect Emperor.

 

To be perfectly honest, as the Jedi Knight in the game, if I ever had the opportunity to become Emperor of the Sith Empire, I would take it without hesitation. Taking it would mean galactic peace in our time, and the authority of Emperor would allow me to make the galaxy a far better place. Of course, the immediate result would almost certainly be civil war.

[OldVengeance]

Only force sensitive slaves have the ability to work their way up. And even then only recently once the Sith Academy relaxed it's standards. Most slaves are out of luck. I'd say that puts in a way worse off position than poor Republic citizens. It's even less rewarding of merit than a capitalist Republic. Edited September 11, 2015 by OldVengeance

[karljedijones]

Hi Guys,

I don't think the Sith are evil at all. There's two sides fighting for control of the known Galaxy. If you look at both parties you'll find good and bad in both. Those Jedi are a little evil though, if you child is force sensitive, they are taken away never to see there parents again. You can't marry. You can't have children. You must be in control of all your emotions all the time. If the Jedi was so just why have so many off them turned to the dark side.

I'm on the Sith's side cos I've just completed the third chapter of the Sith Warrior which I found amazing. Looking forward to the rest then I've got the the Rise of the Hutts and the Shadow of Revan, then it will be straight over to the Fallen Empire expansion. Happy days.

Cheers K

[Rhyltran]

Hi Guys,

I don't think the Sith are evil at all. There's two sides fighting for control of the known Galaxy. If you look at both parties you'll find good and bad in both. Those Jedi are a little evil though, if you child is force sensitive, they are taken away never to see there parents again. You can't marry. You can't have children. You must be in control of all your emotions all the time. If the Jedi was so just why have so many off them turned to the dark side.

I'm on the Sith's side cos I've just completed the third chapter of the Sith Warrior which I found amazing. Looking forward to the rest then I've got the the Rise of the Hutts and the Shadow of Revan, then it will be straight over to the Fallen Empire expansion. Happy days.

Cheers K

 

Jedi do not forcefully take away children from their parents. The parents have the right to choose.

 

A jedi isn't supposed to marry. It has happened a few times in the order. Regardless if you don't like it you're free to leave. No one will stop you.

 

Satele Shan, grandmaster of the Jedi order, had a child.

 

No, not that many Jedi have fallen to the dark side. Only a handful compared to the millions of jedi throughout galactic history.

[karljedijones]

Hi guys.

No I'm sorry but the Jedi are running around with rose tinted glasses on while the big cats get richer and fatter.

You say not many Jedi have gone to the dark side, it's cos as soon as they've done something the council don't like they are kicked out and labeled a rouge Jedi.

The Sith aren't angels but there not evil. They get results.

The Jedi are too long winded, action speak louder the words. If there's something in your way , remove it and move forward. That is way the Sith in my eyes are the lesser of two evils.

Cheers K

[Rhyltran]

Hi guys.

No I'm sorry but the Jedi are running around with rose tinted glasses on while the big cats get richer and fatter.

You say not many Jedi have gone to the dark side, it's cos as soon as they've done something the council don't like they are kicked out and labeled a rouge Jedi.

The Sith aren't angels but there not evil. They get results.

The Jedi are too long winded, action speak louder the words. If there's something in your way , remove it and move forward. That is way the Sith in my eyes are the lesser of two evils.

Cheers K

 

Point 1: Being Neutral =/= Evil.

Point 2: Rogue Jedi are considered fallen Jedi. Jedi aren't booted out the first time they do something wrong. Proof? Qui Gon Jin. He was a constant annoyance to the council.

Point 3: Their results are more hit and miss. Mostly towards the miss. The sith are self defeating.

Point 4: Neutral =/= Evil.

[SithKoriandr]

Hi Guys,

I don't think the Sith are evil at all. There's two sides fighting for control of the known Galaxy. If you look at both parties you'll find good and bad in both. Those Jedi are a little evil though, if you child is force sensitive, they are taken away never to see there parents again. You can't marry. You can't have children. You must be in control of all your emotions all the time. If the Jedi was so just why have so many off them turned to the dark side.

I'm on the Sith's side cos I've just completed the third chapter of the Sith Warrior which I found amazing. Looking forward to the rest then I've got the the Rise of the Hutts and the Shadow of Revan, then it will be straight over to the Fallen Empire expansion. Happy days.

Cheers K

 

Already mentioned, children aren't forcibly taken. The Sith forcibly take, the Jedi do not. However both sides of the line usually consider it an honor to have one's kid taken by the group, the difference is, the Sith one has a good chance of dying, the Jedi one does not.

 

Plenty of Jedi have children. Besides Shan having a child (and it's not exactly the biggest secret) the Consular saves a child of a Jedi in the first chapter (well, has the option to anyways, believe one gets the DS option to kill them).

 

One can decide to leave the Jedi order at any time. Sith can not.

 

The Jedi training to remain in control of ones emotions is because people with lots of power going nuts is not a good thing. When you see a person extremely upset and they have a gun in their hand (maybe even waving it around) you try to get that gun out of their hand. A force user with enough ability to be a Sith or Jedi ALWAYS have a "gun" in their hand.

 

I do agree that it is misguided though. It's an impossible goal, but it's an impossible goal they generally recognize. All through out time, to my understanding they get rid of that rule, then bring it back, then get rid of it. So basically like all of the human race, they have a tendency to repeat history

[SithKoriandr]

Hi guys.

No I'm sorry but the Jedi are running around with rose tinted glasses on while the big cats get richer and fatter.

You say not many Jedi have gone to the dark side, it's cos as soon as they've done something the council don't like they are kicked out and labeled a rouge Jedi.

The Sith aren't angels but there not evil. They get results.

The Jedi are too long winded, action speak louder the words. If there's something in your way , remove it and move forward. That is way the Sith in my eyes are the lesser of two evils.

Cheers K

 

No. The Sith are evil. Unless you think making those beneath you slaves (general sith attitude even if your Sith doesn't do it). Failure is reason to be killed. Not acting when told to, reason to be killed. Just being in a bad mood is reason to kill.

 

Seriously anyone who says Sith are good, have not played the game. Oh, you didn't bow down to me Agent? ELECTROCUTE!

 

At most Sith respect fellow Sith and even then, it's barely there for those under them.

[SaveTheMonkeys]

Hi Guys,

I don't think the Sith are evil at all. There's two sides fighting for control of the known Galaxy. If you look at both parties you'll find good and bad in both. Those Jedi are a little evil though, if you child is force sensitive, they are taken away never to see there parents again. You can't marry. You can't have children. You must be in control of all your emotions all the time. If the Jedi was so just why have so many off them turned to the dark side.

I'm on the Sith's side cos I've just completed the third chapter of the Sith Warrior which I found amazing. Looking forward to the rest then I've got the the Rise of the Hutts and the Shadow of Revan, then it will be straight over to the Fallen Empire expansion. Happy days.

Cheers K

 

The Sith Warrior story is really good, I've just finished it myself. But I think you might want to play one of the Jedi classes before you commit to that opinion. The Jedi don't really understand the Sith, and vice versa, so you really shouldn't form an opinion based on the propaganda and misconceptions of one side.

The SW literally owns their first companion. Sure, you can take her collar off, but she's still a slave. Sounds pretty evil to me