Are Sith really evil?

[CaptainFerrum]

This shows a gross misunderstanding of the Jedi. Especially the part I bolded. The Jedi followed Ashla back then which was the name they gave for the light side. Some Jedi followed Bogan which was the dark side. The Jedi found the followers of Bogan worrying but they allowed them their place at the temple. The Jedi were not closed off to new ideas or new opinions. The followers of Bogan decided that they wanted more power and that the other Jedi were essentially "doing it wrong." they believed the Jedi should have the right to subjugate other species. They had the power to do so why not? The Jedi were opposed to this so the followers of Bogan decided to wage war on the Jedi order.

 

It was the Jedi letting people practice the dark side that led to the Dark Jedi and eventually the Sith. The Jedi were actually more open minded than the dark side followers because they just couldn't share power (hence why most Sith kill each other) and yes most people are taken at five because of the aforementioned problems with the dark side. Force sensitives can cause terrible destruction and chaos if left unchecked. Also the Jedi don't support Republic genocide but they do support the republic. During the great hyperspace war the republic wanted to destroy the Sith species down to the last Sith. The Jedi opposed of this idea and the republic essentially told the Jedi they wouldn't do it (then did it anyway) which is what lead to the events (thousands of years later) to the Sith returning for revenge.

 

Revan was not acting in accordance to the council. Nor were the Jedi that followed him. They were extreme members that weren't acting in according to their teachings at the Jedi temple. Revan has a long history of this an many times went off and convinced other Jedi to follow him in his vision. Jedi do have emotions. I already proved that incorrect with examples. The Jedi do not teach you to not have emotions but to control them. Which you have to given how seductive and corrupting the dark side is. The problem is you ignore how corrupting the dark side is and how easily it affects people and twists them into something else.

 

The Jedi are so strict because they have to be. The Dark Side demands it. Also if Anakin was found to be in love he wouldn't have been kicked from the order by the way. The Jedi are taught not to fall in love but very few Jedi actually forbid it (there's some masters that do) but even in SWTOR.. Theron Shan? Is Satele's son. Also Obi Wan had a few flings as well. Anakin kept it a secret instead of coming to the Jedi about it. Anakin didn't even tell Obi Wan who would have actually understood.

 

As for the second bold.. please read up on the timeline. They were exiled because they tried destroying the Jedi Order.

 

 

Well first of, Satele is a bad example. Have you played Shadow of Revan as a Republic class? She doesn't treat him like a son, she treats him the same way most celebrities treat fans. Badly.

 

I do see your point, i really do. The jedi most forbid emotions because if they don't everyone would turn dark side, but is that really such a bad thing. Yes most sith are terrible people, but that is not a result of the sith code, considering people like Marr are not terrible people.

Its a subjective question, but there are "dark side" sith that are not horrible people, just because you use your emotions as a weapon instead of saying they are bad doesn't mean automatically that you are a murderer.

Most sith are horrible people, but that is because absolute power corrupts. They want to become the best warrior in the galaxy and they will stop at nothing to achieve it, the sith code teaches you how to win the inner conflict within yourself, it never tells you to be a horrible person.

Prime examples being Marr and Lana Beniko.

 

Just because you are sith or dark side doesn't necessarily mean you are a bad person. So the entire argument "Oh the jedi have to do it because otherwise they would turn dark side" is not really valid, because the dark side isn't necessarily bad.

And with the entire corruption thing, i fail to see your point. Yes it addictive and it does corrupt the user.

So....?

This might be an extreme example but its like saying.

"Oh my god Rhyltran you are addicted to dopamine. You need to stop being addicted to dopamine. You do things everyday just to get your dopamine"

Yeah sure, everyone are addicted to dopamine. Does that mean that dopamine is a bad thing?

People do some pretty weird things to get dopamine kicks. Does that mean that dopamine is bad ALWAYS?

No. Not at all.

 

Just because its addictive and sometimes leads people to do bad stuff doesn't mean its bad.

 

I want to agree with you, i really do. But your argument boils down to this.

"The jedi must ban emotions otherwise people would turn dark"

And im not arguing with that, i agree with that sure. Im saying that them turning dark isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

Lets create a scenario where the jedi didn't, you know, despise dark side people and accepted their choice.

Anakin would fall in love with Padmé. They would be like "Yeah go for it!" and he would had gotten a wife and stayed jedi.

 

BUT the jedi code makes a big deal out of "NO EMOTIONS" so you can't really blame Anakin for thinking the Jedi code thumpers, AKA the jedi council would disapprove.

The entire argument "Alot of jedis have emotions" is really just not true. Yes many jedis don't have a problem with emotions. But the code that they follow has. It doesn't say, "Be careful with emotions, espeically hatred and such because it can turn you into a sith. But if you love someone, go for it!"

It says. "There is no emotion. There is peace"

And you cant argue against that.

If jedis as individuals agree with it or not is irrelevant. Because the code itself says it.

 

The bible says that you should stone to death children who insult their parents, almost all modern priests disagree with this.

So what is the true story? What does Christianity say?

Well the bible is the main tenant of Christianity. its what Christianity is built off. If priests and individuals like it or not is irrelevant, they follow the bible, they can't just cheery pick the good parts.

 

The jedi code says "No emotions"

Most jedis don't have a problem with emotions. Thats why they are hypocrites. They claim they are jedi but don't follow their own code. If the code is so bad that its followers don't even listen to it, then why should it exist at all?

[CaptainFerrum]

When judging the Jedi and their code, it's important to remember that they don't force it on everyone they meet. Yes, we know that the Jedi are legally empowered to take children as initiates even if their parents say no; however, it's not ever stated that this happens often. And joining the Jedi isn't necessarily a lifetime commitment. There are plenty of examples of people simply leaving the Jedi order if they can't along with its philosophy; see

 

Guss Tuno, Ardun Kothe, Jolee Bindo, Zayne Carrick, Count Dooku

 

 

The Sith drag everyone with Force potential into their academy, expecting most to die there - and they will kill you for so much as questioning whether their code is right. You might argue that the Sith code in the abstract is a good way to live your life (accept no limitations, answer to no-one), but if you're a non-Force sensitive in the Empire, the Sith won't even allow you to live by that code: freedom is reserved for the chosen few, and you are allowed no higher aspiration than wearing a nice uniform and saying "yes sir" to your rightful superiors.

 

 

I hate having to repeat myself with this.

 

I .

Am.

Not.

Saying.

The.

Sith.

Are.

Good.

People

 

 

Both of them are doing unacceptable things. The jedis kidnap and indoctrinate children, the sith send them to die. Both are unacceptable. I've never claimed the sith are good, i am claiming the jedi are as bad if not worse.

[Joachimthbear]

I hate having to repeat myself with this.I've never claimed the sith are good, i am claiming the jedi are as bad if not worse.

My comments weren't aimed at anyone in particular, but I still disagree with you here. You say "as bad" or "worse" and I just don't see how the comparison makes sense.

[SithKoriandr]

The Jedi do not kidnap children.

 

I have yet to read any story that says "Parents said no, Jedi took them anyways" except from poorly written fan fiction trash. Note, I do admit I haven't read every single book.

 

Sith however, do take every child. In fact, it's law!

 

Sith are evil. Marr, who gets looked up to, is evil. He may be more pragmatic than most other Sith, but he's not above killing children to get what he wants, he's not above force chocking someone to death for a failure. He's still evil.

 

You have that much ability with the force (and some while they may not have it yet, train up to better abilities with it) without emotions being put into check, will likely do something terrible if angered.

 

"What the?! I didn't want to believe, but now I've caught you in bed with someone else!" *one possibly two dead bodies for marital infidelity*

 

"NO! I'm about to lose this game...FORCE CHOKE!"

 

"What d you mean I can't have a cookie mommy?!" *telekinetically sends multiple forks, knives and one spoon into mommy*

 

Those examples are small scale, imagine force users on a grander scale...like Darth's and Revan!

[CaptainFerrum]

The Jedi do not kidnap children.

 

I have yet to read any story that says "Parents said no, Jedi took them anyways" except from poorly written fan fiction trash. Note, I do admit I haven't read every single book.

 

Sith however, do take every child. In fact, it's law!

 

Sith are evil. Marr, who gets looked up to, is evil. He may be more pragmatic than most other Sith, but he's not above killing children to get what he wants, he's not above force chocking someone to death for a failure. He's still evil.

 

You have that much ability with the force (and some while they may not have it yet, train up to better abilities with it) without emotions being put into check, will likely do something terrible if angered.

 

"What the?! I didn't want to believe, but now I've caught you in bed with someone else!" *one possibly two dead bodies for marital infidelity*

 

"NO! I'm about to lose this game...FORCE CHOKE!"

 

"What d you mean I can't have a cookie mommy?!" *telekinetically sends multiple forks, knives and one spoon into mommy*

 

Those examples are small scale, imagine force users on a grander scale...like Darth's and Revan!

 

So taking children from their homes is not kidnapping? Just a btw, even if the parents say yes it is highly illegal to abduct people, especially if they never agreed to it and are under the age of 18.

 

Lets say you are an American.

On your 15th birthday a colonel walks into your house, looks at you and says "You seem strong, come with me and we will make you a soldier. Its a lifetime thing and you are forbidden to ever have a wife or children" and your parents said yes. Would you still follow along?

Of course not, if you are under 18 your parents have authority over you, that doesn't mean they can send you on a lifetime assignment without your consent.

[SithKoriandr]

So taking children from their homes is not kidnapping? Just a btw, even if the parents say yes it is highly illegal to abduct people, especially if they never agreed to it and are under the age of 18.

 

Lets say you are an American.

On your 15th birthday a colonel walks into your house, looks at you and says "You seem strong, come with me and we will make you a soldier. Its a lifetime thing and you are forbidden to ever have a wife or children" and your parents said yes. Would you still follow along?

Of course not, if you are under 18 your parents have authority over you, that doesn't mean they can send you on a lifetime assignment without your consent.

 

They don't just take the children. They ask the parents. The parents almost always being more than willing to send them with the Jedi.

 

Notice when Nadia has force abilities, the Jedi doesn't just go "Oh hey! You're now one of us!"

 

For real life examples. Oh yes they can. Military/Boarding School! There's something you're sent to without a child's approval.

 

They all do have one thing in common, when an adult you can choose to leave! Kofhe (Agent storyline) chose to leave. Guss (Smuggler companion) chose to leave. Revan (big NPC) chose to leave.

 

This also isn't America, this is the SW universe (I say America, because we can look at other countries that do have child armies that those children are forced into), where many of the cultures think "Hunting others is honorable!"

 

Trandosians are willing to hunt any sentient being who they consider stronger than them, for sport/points/religious reasons.

 

Wookies it's mentioned many times, how it's not wise to anger a wookie

 

But now, give me just one example in SW where they abduct the child from the parent. Even Anakin wasn't taken, his mom said he could and he wanted. When the mom was hestitant about it, Qui Gon didn't force her into it.

[Rhyltran]

Well first of, Satele is a bad example. Have you played Shadow of Revan as a Republic class? She doesn't treat him like a son, she treats him the same way most celebrities treat fans. Badly.

 

I do see your point, i really do. The jedi most forbid emotions because if they don't everyone would turn dark side, but is that really such a bad thing. Yes most sith are terrible people, but that is not a result of the sith code, considering people like Marr are not terrible people.

Its a subjective question, but there are "dark side" sith that are not horrible people, just because you use your emotions as a weapon instead of saying they are bad doesn't mean automatically that you are a murderer.

Most sith are horrible people, but that is because absolute power corrupts. They want to become the best warrior in the galaxy and they will stop at nothing to achieve it, the sith code teaches you how to win the inner conflict within yourself, it never tells you to be a horrible person.

Prime examples being Marr and Lana Beniko.

 

Just because you are sith or dark side doesn't necessarily mean you are a bad person. So the entire argument "Oh the jedi have to do it because otherwise they would turn dark side" is not really valid, because the dark side isn't necessarily bad.

And with the entire corruption thing, i fail to see your point. Yes it addictive and it does corrupt the user.

So....?

This might be an extreme example but its like saying.

"Oh my god Rhyltran you are addicted to dopamine. You need to stop being addicted to dopamine. You do things everyday just to get your dopamine"

Yeah sure, everyone are addicted to dopamine. Does that mean that dopamine is a bad thing?

People do some pretty weird things to get dopamine kicks. Does that mean that dopamine is bad ALWAYS?

No. Not at all.

 

Just because its addictive and sometimes leads people to do bad stuff doesn't mean its bad.

 

I want to agree with you, i really do. But your argument boils down to this.

"The jedi must ban emotions otherwise people would turn dark"

And im not arguing with that, i agree with that sure. Im saying that them turning dark isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

Lets create a scenario where the jedi didn't, you know, despise dark side people and accepted their choice.

Anakin would fall in love with Padmé. They would be like "Yeah go for it!" and he would had gotten a wife and stayed jedi.

 

BUT the jedi code makes a big deal out of "NO EMOTIONS" so you can't really blame Anakin for thinking the Jedi code thumpers, AKA the jedi council would disapprove.

The entire argument "Alot of jedis have emotions" is really just not true. Yes many jedis don't have a problem with emotions. But the code that they follow has. It doesn't say, "Be careful with emotions, espeically hatred and such because it can turn you into a sith. But if you love someone, go for it!"

It says. "There is no emotion. There is peace"

And you cant argue against that.

If jedis as individuals agree with it or not is irrelevant. Because the code itself says it.

 

The bible says that you should stone to death children who insult their parents, almost all modern priests disagree with this.

So what is the true story? What does Christianity say?

Well the bible is the main tenant of Christianity. its what Christianity is built off. If priests and individuals like it or not is irrelevant, they follow the bible, they can't just cheery pick the good parts.

 

The jedi code says "No emotions"

Most jedis don't have a problem with emotions. Thats why they are hypocrites. They claim they are jedi but don't follow their own code. If the code is so bad that its followers don't even listen to it, then why should it exist at all?

 

Marr isn't that bad because he cut back on the dark side when he realized it was killing him and even now he's terminal. The dark side is addictive but it doesn't just make you "more emotional" it's not the same as dopamine. The dark side makes you do whatever you want. It whispers in your ear telling you that what you want you should take it. If someone angers you they should be destroyed. The Dark Side feeds on emotions such as hate, anger, fear, and doubt. The dark side gets stronger the more you hurt, kill, and destroy others. Are there dark siders who are harsh but are relatively in control? Yes but most don't have that level of control.

 

There are responsible addicts of hardcore drugs that you would never know abuse them. There's many more who steal, kill, and being completely dysfunctional. You're also ignoring the fact that the Jedi code are GUIDELINES are there Jedi who take it literally? Yes but they're not supposed to. It's a guide and it's not to be taken literal. There's extremists but it's the same for any religion.

 

I'm also not convinced Anakin would have been perfectly fine if they approved of Padme. He had a lot of dark issues before then. He had trouble letting go. He wanted to be all powerful. Strong enough to prevent the people he cares about from ever dying. It wasn't that he hid her that caused the problem. He had dreams that she was going to die and his frustration was that he wasn't powerful enough to keep her from death. When the sand people killed his mother he slaughtered them. Down to the children. In order to side with palpatine he agreed on the entire slaughter of the Jedi temple and even the children as well. He was capable of doing whatever it took to protect her.

 

It's also not "people turning dark." it's force sensitives. Also you're free to leave the order by the way. They don't arrest you if you want to quit. If you get older and decide being a Jedi isn't for you? By all means. Leave. The Jedi won't stop you. The rules exist for those that want to be Jedi. They won't FORCE you. Even then when they take force sensitives at a young age? It's at their parents request. They don't kidnap. They talk to them, explain the dangers of force sensitivity, they tell them what the dark side is capable of and what will happen if their kid falls to the dark side.

 

There's parents who refused the Jedi. There's people who missed out on opportunity to become Jedi. Some never awakened their powers. Some managed to just fine. Most of those become crime lords and use their powers to inflict cruelty before being killed, arrested, or picked up by the Sith. The problem is most Sith are psychopathic and it's not because of their code. It's the dark side. It drives most people mad. It eats at their bodies and mind. It destroys their flesh.

[CaptainFerrum]

They don't just take the children. They ask the parents. The parents almost always being more than willing to send them with the Jedi.

 

Notice when Nadia has force abilities, the Jedi doesn't just go "Oh hey! You're now one of us!"

 

For real life examples. Oh yes they can. Military/Boarding School! There's something you're sent to without a child's approval.

 

They all do have one thing in common, when an adult you can choose to leave! Kofhe (Agent storyline) chose to leave. Guss (Smuggler companion) chose to leave. Revan (big NPC) chose to leave.

 

This also isn't America, this is the SW universe (I say America, because we can look at other countries that do have child armies that those children are forced into), where many of the cultures think "Hunting others is honorable!"

 

Trandosians are willing to hunt any sentient being who they consider stronger than them, for sport/points/religious reasons.

 

Wookies it's mentioned many times, how it's not wise to anger a wookie

 

But now, give me just one example in SW where they abduct the child from the parent. Even Anakin wasn't taken, his mom said he could and he wanted. When the mom was hestitant about it, Qui Gon didn't force her into it.

 

 

You joking?

None of them chose to leave. They were thrown out because they were not good jedi. You can't leave, you can be kicked out if you are not one of their apathetic mindless robots that follow the Senates ever word though.

 

Also, you can't expect children to make life changing decisions.

 

 

This is why there are laws forbidding under age people from drinking, working and such things. Because underage people can't be expected to make life changing decisions and then agree with them for the rest of their life.

 

10 year old Anakin probably only joined because it seemed fun. Ahsoka Tano was recruited by Jedi master Plo Koon when she was barely more than a baby. As she remarks later, she had no choice. The jedi just came there and took her to the jedi temple.

Sure her previous life was much worse, but maybe she wanted freedom? Maybe she wanted to roam the galaxy as a free woman? But no, at a very young age they took her to the jedi temple and she had no choice in the matter.

[Rhyltran]

You joking?

None of them chose to leave. They were thrown out because they were not good jedi. You can't leave, you can be kicked out if you are not one of their apathetic mindless robots that follow the Senates ever word though.

 

Also, you can't expect children to make life changing decisions.

 

 

This is why there are laws forbidding under age people from drinking, working and such things. Because underage people can't be expected to make life changing decisions and then agree with them for the rest of their life.

 

10 year old Anakin probably only joined because it seemed fun. Ahsoka Tano was recruited by Jedi master Plo Koon when she was barely more than a baby. As she remarks later, she had no choice. The jedi just came there and took her to the jedi temple.

Sure her previous life was much worse, but maybe she wanted freedom? Maybe she wanted to roam the galaxy as a free woman? But no, at a very young age they took her to the jedi temple and she had no choice in the matter.

 

Uh. You can leave. There's a lot of Jedi in the history of the order who chose to walk out. The only requirement is handing in your lightsaber. Your parents choose. Parents can have their kids adopted, sent to military school, etc. Parents don't have their kids snatched from their arms.

 

In real life I was adopted. I didn't choose to be placed in a different family. Where was my choice in the matter? Horror, right?

 

Those that got kicked out didn't want to leave. If you don't want to be in you can go.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Sappharan]

I hate having to repeat myself with this.

 

I .

Am.

Not.

Saying.

The.

Sith.

Are.

Good.

People

 

 

Both of them are doing unacceptable things. The jedis kidnap and indoctrinate children, the sith send them to die. Both are unacceptable. I've never claimed the sith are good, i am claiming the jedi are as bad if not worse.

 

Your assertions are patently absurd and you'll only find sith fanbois agreeing with you. The sith are monstrously evil, and revel in it whereas the Jedi, on the whole, can be categorized as rigid, preachy and even a bit haughty at times.

 

Indoctrination? That's the sith modus operandi. Failing to fully submit to the sith is either a death sentence or a slave sentence.

[Rhyltran]

Your assertions are patently absurd and you'll only find sith fanbois agreeing with you. The sith are monstrously evil, and revel in it whereas the Jedi, on the whole, can be categorized as rigid, preachy and even a bit haughty at times.

 

Indoctrination? That's the sith modus operandi. Failing to fully submit to the sith is either a death sentence or a slave sentence.

 

Funny thing is I don't have a single level 60 Jedi. I have 6 Sith characters. Five of which is max level. I find the Sith lore and culture fascinating but even I'm defending the Jedi because.. they're being seriously sold short and blown up at every turn. Also what fascinates me about the Sith is how their society which is built on hatred, destruction, paranoia, black mail, and assassination has lasted as long as it did. Plus their abilities are very interesting. I usually consider myself a Sith fanboi and I'm still not agreeing.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Sappharan]

When judging the Jedi and their code, it's important to remember that they don't force it on everyone they meet. Yes, we know that the Jedi are legally empowered to take children as initiates even if their parents say no; however, it's not ever stated that this happens often. And joining the Jedi isn't necessarily a lifetime commitment. There are plenty of examples of people simply leaving the Jedi order if they can't along with its philosophy; see

 

Guss Tuno, Ardun Kothe, Jolee Bindo, Zayne Carrick, Count Dooku

 

 

The Sith drag everyone with Force potential into their academy, expecting most to die there - and they will kill you for so much as questioning whether their code is right. You might argue that the Sith code in the abstract is a good way to live your life (accept no limitations, answer to no-one), but if you're a non-Force sensitive in the Empire, the Sith won't even allow you to live by that code: freedom is reserved for the chosen few, and you are allowed no higher aspiration than wearing a nice uniform and saying "yes sir" to your rightful superiors.

 

That was succinct, objective and well argued. There is a bit I don't like about the Jedi, but it is nothing compared to what I loathe about the sith code. Sith are evil and revel in it.

 

I believe ferrum appreciates the "honesty" of the sith code because they make no excuses and offer no apologies. Something tells me he would like it a whole lot less were he to find himself living it.

[Sappharan]

Funny thing is I don't have a single level 60 Jedi. I have 6 Sith characters. Five of which is max level. I find the Sith lore and culture fascinating but even I'm defending the Jedi because.. they're being seriously sold short and blown up at every turn. Also what fascinates me about the Sith is how their society which is built on hatred, destruction, paranoia, black mail, and assassination has lasted as long as it did. Plus their abilities are very interesting. I usually consider myself a Sith fanboi and I'm still not agreeing.

 

Interesting. I have often wondered why people like the Sith/Empire so much more. A few, I suspect, think as Ferrum does. Your opinion is more informed and nuanced. A bit of that also probably comes from the need to escape everyday life. We're all expected to be "good" and "polite" and sometimes I guess it's nice to cut loose, and the Empire faction gives players a better opportunity to do that.

 

FWIW, I prefer at least one of the Sith abilities too. Lighting = COOL! Throwing rocks = lame

 

I do like playing LS Sith (Warrior in particular) because of the reactions the NPCs give. It's more satisfying to do something nice when the people are surprised by your actions than expectant of them.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Sappharan

[CaptainFerrum]

Uh. You can leave. There's a lot of Jedi in the history of the order who chose to walk out. The only requirement is handing in your lightsaber. Your parents choose. Parents can have their kids adopted, sent to military school, etc. Parents don't have their kids snatched from their arms.

 

In real life I was adopted. I didn't choose to be placed in a different family. Where was my choice in the matter? Horror, right?

 

Those that got kicked out didn't want to leave. If you don't want to be in you can go.

 

Padawans can technically leave the order, sure. At least from what we know.

But we also know that people like Anakin had great difficulty leaving if they tried. Because you know, he was "the chosen one"

I'm not saying that in 100% of the cases does padawans not want to join the order. But they never really have a choice. If they join at the age of 6 the jedi is the entire world they know.

All information they learn is biased. They are practically indoctrinated.

 

Its the same with the people of North Korea. They don't want to leave North Korea despite being oppressed.

Everyone in their life has told them that North Korea are the good guys and that all other countries are much more evil.

 

Same with the jedi.

If the padawans can leave or not is irrelevant to tell the truth, they don't want to leave because they have been indoctrinated by the jedis to think that all sith are hitler and that all jedis are jesus.

[Rhyltran]

Interesting. I have often wondered why people like the Sith/Empire so much more. A few, I suspect, think as Ferrum does. Your opinion is more informed and nuanced. A bit of that also probably comes from the need to escape everyday life. We're all expected to be "good" and "polite" and sometimes I guess it's nice to cut loose, and the Empire faction gives players a better opportunity to do that.

 

FWIW, I prefer at least one of the Sith abilities too. Lighting = COOL! Throwing rocks = lame

 

I do like playing LS Sith (Warrior in particular) because of the reactions the NPCs give. It's more satisfying to do something nice when the people are surprised by your actions than expectant of them.

 

To be fair I lean a lot more to Grey, Light, and (Dark 1-2) kind of Sith. I also have an obsession with warrior cultures that are brutal but with a sense of decency and honor. I also share the view that an Empire doesn't have to be bad. I really like the Imperial Knights in the Legacy era because of their code/ideals. They have an Empire and an Emperor but they can go above the Emperor's head. They make sure that the Emperor stays true to himself and his citizens. If the Emperor falls into darkness it is their duty to step in, stop him, and either return him to the light/over throw him.

 

If you can ensure that the Emperor is someone who cares about his people, makes sure that they're well taken care of, and are happy then it could be a good system. If you can ensure the Emperor is "Light" then you don't have to worry about decisions being made by corrupt bureaucrats. You don't have to worry about some council getting stuck in paper work when it comes to a decision. As Emperor he makes the call, the rules, and the decisions. In real life I don't want a king of emperor. For obvious reasons (it can be abused) but in the star wars universe you could have this.

 

You could have an Emperor who's being watched by people who can see the future, sense motives, and have the ability to step in even if the Emperor stops him. It's incredibly interesting that they can ensure whoever rises to power is good. The people in the Fel Empire LOVED their Emperor and were overall happy. I play Light Sith who would love to live that kind of ideal.

 

Proper Sith are interesting me to, however, even if it's not a society I would want to live with. I love stories about political intrigue, backstabbing, and assassination. I play games like Vampire the Requiem which is all about that. The idea that everyone around you could and probably is plotting around you so that you need to take that into consideration and plot around them (without them being aware or aware you're going to make a move right now) to me adds suspense, mystery, and excitement.

 

Padawans can technically leave the order, sure. At least from what we know.

But we also know that people like Anakin had great difficulty leaving if they tried. Because you know, he was "the chosen one"

I'm not saying that in 100% of the cases does padawans not want to join the order. But they never really have a choice. If they join at the age of 6 the jedi is the entire world they know.

All information they learn is biased. They are practically indoctrinated.

 

Its the same with the people of North Korea. They don't want to leave North Korea despite being oppressed.

Everyone in their life has told them that North Korea are the good guys and that all other countries are much more evil.

 

Same with the jedi.

If the padawans can leave or not is irrelevant to tell the truth, they don't want to leave because they have been indoctrinated by the jedis to think that all sith are hitler and that all jedis are jesus.

 

Based on their parent's choice. You're going to feel some bias no matter what. Most people become attached to the people they were raised with and many people follow the same beliefs/traditions as those that they grew up around. The Jedi's views are their world but it's the same in real life with people who were born with Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, or what have you; parents. Those are likely to adopt the same culture, beliefs, and world view as them. Truth is if their parents give them to the Jedi they are being adopted by the Jedi. It's not horrible if those Jedi raise them and train them in their culture. It's not any different from anywhere else in the world or with any other family out there.

 

For the record it wouldn't be that hard for Anakin to leave. Most of the Jedi didn't believe him to be the chosen one anyway. It would only further convince them of this fact if he did turn and walk out. Plus you're talking about an extreme outlier. He was the only chosen one in the entire history of the Jedi order as there was only one person to ever be born to fulfill that prophecy. It was Anakin.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Rhyltran

[SithKoriandr]

You joking?

None of them chose to leave. They were thrown out because they were not good jedi. You can't leave, you can be kicked out if you are not one of their apathetic mindless robots that follow the Senates ever word though.

 

Also, you can't expect children to make life changing decisions.

 

 

This is why there are laws forbidding under age people from drinking, working and such things. Because underage people can't be expected to make life changing decisions and then agree with them for the rest of their life.

 

10 year old Anakin probably only joined because it seemed fun. Ahsoka Tano was recruited by Jedi master Plo Koon when she was barely more than a baby. As she remarks later, she had no choice. The jedi just came there and took her to the jedi temple.

Sure her previous life was much worse, but maybe she wanted freedom? Maybe she wanted to roam the galaxy as a free woman? But no, at a very young age they took her to the jedi temple and she had no choice in the matter.

 

Kohfe (agent storyline) didn't leave because he wasn't a good jedi. He left because he realized he didn't believe in the order.

 

One of the first side quests on Tython was a Jedi (not a child) who couldn't do the training. He was obviously strong enough to use the force and get to tython, but not strong enough to become a Jedi (though I think that was a little rash on his Master's part...but who knows, there may have been other missions he failed at constantly). But when we say he deserves a second chance, the master says okay, so there's that saying it was his first mission (so back to master being rash).

 

You're right, kids can't generally decide, that's why Anakin didn't decide, his mother did. She let him go with the Jedi. He just wanted to go with the Jedi as well.

 

Then he grew up. Though, I don't recall him actually wanting to leave the order. He didn't want to leave and the war going on he didn't think he could leave.

[Khevar]

Just imagine you were a regular person in the times of The Old Republic. Not a Jedi, not a Sith, not a Grand Moff, just a regular person.

 

If you lived on an Imperial Planet, and ran into a Sith, you would likely be at the mercy of any slightest whim. Look at the sith sideways? Don't step out of his way? Occupy the same sidewalk? For any reason at all, you could find yourself threatened or potentially dead.

 

Now compare this to a Republic Planet, where you ran into a Jedi. Would you be worried for your safety?

 

The Jedi teach restraint. They teach to think about one's actions before doing them. They teach concern for others.

 

Now, as an organization, the Republic is corrupt and decadent. As an organization, the Jedi Council is flawed and forces it's mores upon others. But as a collection of individuals? Pick 10 random Jedi (that haven't fallen to the Dark Side) and compare them against 10 random Sith. Can anyone honestly say that those Jedi are "more evil" or even "just as evil" as the 10 sith?

Edited September 7, 2015 by Khevar

[uzayadam]

Great point!

IFFFFFFF

Revan had done it himself. But the republic sent an entire battle fleet to defend the foundry. Im not bashing Revan, im bashing the republic and the jedi.

They sent thousands of soldiers to defend Revans plans of genocide, so i would say its a pretty good point. Revan tried to commit genocide, the Senate was like "Heeeellllsss yeeeeeah" and the Jedi, who can't disobey the Senate because they have forbidden to think critically or interdependently, just followed along and defended Genocide.

 

As they say "The only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing" and the jedi do nothing.

 

Also, i would disagree. If you read the sith code LITERALLY then yes, it would be horrible, but you shouldn't read it literally just like you shouldn't read the bible literally or the Quran literally.

 

 

The sith code is much more about fighting your inner conflict.

The eternal battle between democracy vs unity. Politics vs obedience. "All for one, one for all" vs "If you want to get a job done, do it yourself".

 

Honestly, the sith code is much more about reaching your full potential and from that point crush those who try to undermine you. The sith are horrible people despite their code, not because of it.

Never does the code say "Through passion I SLAUGHTER EVERYONE I SEE MWAHHAHAHAHAHHA"

 

The sith being terrible people is much more a result of extreme paranoia and the fact that they don't trust each other. You cant really blame that on the sith code.

If we are comparing the sith and jedi code than the sith code is better.

The jedi code forbids emotions. I doesn't say "Don't let emotions cloud your judgement" no no no, it literally says "NO EMOTIONS"

It doesn't leave much room for interpretation.

 

If you were to follow the sith code you would learn how to do thing yourself, how to stop relying on others and how to reach your full potential.

While the jedi code tries to teach everyone to become apathetic mindless robots that follow the senate every word without using their own brain.

 

 

A more relaxed Jedi code might be the utopia. But the jedi code as it stands in SWTOR is not relaxed.

We are not arguing what if, we are arguing what is actually happening.

 

And in actuality the jedi code sucks, don't say "Well it could be good" that's not what we are arguing.

On an over arching level the jedis are extremely arrogant as a result of their code. Just watch episode 3, Mace Windu disagrees with Palpatine and therefore tries to kill him.

Sure Palpatine was calling for the extinction of the Jedi, but that's democracy. If the majority of the Republic wanted the jedi gone, then that is democracy. Windu can't just kill politicans he disagrees with.

 

But that's what the jedis do, they usually kill people just because they dislike them. The jedis are not better than the sith, they are pretty much two sides of the same coin, only difference is that the Sith are honest about it and don't try blindly follow every command.

 

 

Man u take it really wrong...

Jedi are not slave of the senate, they follow their orders because there is diplomacy in republic. Jedi work for the republic, think them as spec ops of today. If u are a specops soldier and obama says u to go and kill the bin ladin would u say "Shut up u idiot im a god dam spec ops soldier i do what ever i want go fu** ur as*." NO. Same applies for jedi. Supreme chancellor and the ministers of republic are choosen by the majority. U listen their orders.

Edited September 7, 2015 by uzayadam

[MadDutchman]

Both organizations are evil, (at least until post ROTJ era, but that is a different discussion)

 

The main difference is that the evil of the Jedi, while less extreme than the Sith, is derived from a fundamentally flawed philosophy, whereas the Sith philosophy is sound, but the organization itself has grown corrupt to the point of insanity.

 

Much like the Senate, it is based on the perfectly sound ideals of democracy, but has grown corrupt.

 

Of course, many of the failures of the Jedi get blamed on the Sith. Throughout history, when a Jedi falls to the dark side, they usually take on the name Sith, when in fact the original failure was the Jedi.

[SithKoriandr]

Both organizations are evil, (at least until post ROTJ era, but that is a different discussion)

 

The main difference is that the evil of the Jedi, while less extreme than the Sith, is derived from a fundamentally flawed philosophy, whereas the Sith philosophy is sound, but the organization itself has grown corrupt to the point of insanity.

 

Much like the Senate, it is based on the perfectly sound ideals of democracy, but has grown corrupt.

 

Of course, many of the failures of the Jedi get blamed on the Sith. Throughout history, when a Jedi falls to the dark side, they usually take on the name Sith, when in fact the original failure was the Jedi.

 

Both sides may be evil, but the Agent joining the Republic seems to be a light side choice.

[OldVengeance]

The Sith were never not corrupt.

[Shayddow]

Individual Sith can be good or evil. There are, however, more dominant evil-doers at the higher echalons of society. People who condone slavery, inhumane medical experiments, destruction of planets and xenophobic ostracization of other species.

 

The Sith code in and of itself is not "evil" - it basically asserts the rights of an individual. However, this is taken to the extreme by the society, because the individual doesn't give any degree of respect to the rights of other individuals. Or to those in the society that don't have "the force".

But the mere fact that they are Sith does not make them "evil" - all depends on their behavior.

For instance, the Sith who the Knight encounters, I believe on Tattooine, <light side spares, and who later fights on the Jedi side on Corellia> could be considered an example of this.

 

The Jedi Code on the other hand isn't the ideal either. And in practice, taking children away from their parents, and frowning on emotions and attachments - hardly conducive to a healthy lifestyle.

[CaptainFerrum]

Oh man, i go away to sleep and the entire forum blows up.

 

Well before trying to answer all of yours point i just want to clear this up.

I am not saying the Sith are good guys. I think comparing the republic and the sith is like comparing Nazi Germany and The Soviet Union, both are horrible systems of government. And in the last few posts, this has turned into a subjective moral question, which is not really smart discussing since there are no straight right or wrong there. Only opinions.

I think its unacceptable to take young kids to a fanatical order and indoctrinate them, even if their parents agree. You might feel differently, its all just opinions.

 

Can't we all agree that genocide is unacceptable though? I mean there is no way anyone can justify Revan trying to kill 97.8% of the Imperial population.

AND ONCE AGAIN! I am not bashing Revan, i understood he was probably distraught after years of mind control. I am bashing the Republic and the jedi for sending an entire flipping fleet to defend his attempted genocide.

Genocide is not cool.

 

And before you even say "uuuh but the sith do the same" NO. NO. I know they do the same. Go back to what a wrote a few rows ago. I am not saying the Sith are good guys. Its worthless telling me about what the sith do wrong, i'm not arguing against that. I agree that many things the Empire does is unacceptable. My point is that the Republic does some ******* crazy things too, and we should not overlook that.

I might have formulated myself badly so i seemed like i said something else, in which case my fault. But that's the point i'm trying to make.

 

So hopefully this will stop the endless arguments of "But the sith are evil" I know. I know. Believe me. I know.

 

 

Now, TO THE ARGUMENTS! *batman music*

 

"One of the first side quests on Tython was a Jedi (not a child) who couldn't do the training. He was obviously strong enough to use the force and get to tython, but not strong enough to become a Jedi (though I think that was a little rash on his Master's part...but who knows, there may have been other missions he failed at constantly). But when we say he deserves a second chance, the master says okay, so there's that saying it was his first mission (so back to master being rash)."

 

No. Go and play it again. The master expected him to fail on those trials, but he did them so that the padawan could learn humility. He was almost kicked out of the order because he cheated by asking for help by the player. So no, he doesn't risk getting kicked because of his abilities, he risks getting kicked because he cheats.

 

I think Khevar makes an excellent point.

The jedi council and the senate is extremely corrupt and inefficient. But as individuals Jedi are better. I 100% agree.

But the jedi order as a whole uses many flawed concepts.

 

 

"Man u take it really wrong...

Jedi are not slave of the senate, they follow their orders because there is diplomacy in republic. Jedi work for the republic, think them as spec ops of today. If u are a specops soldier and obama says u to go and kill the bin ladin would u say "Shut up u idiot im a god dam spec ops soldier i do what ever i want go fu** ur as*." NO. Same applies for jedi. Supreme chancellor and the ministers of republic are choosen by the majority. U listen their orders."

 

Sigh....

I genuinely facepalmed reading this. Well first off Bin Laden is a horrible comparison. Bin Laden was a terrorists killing thousands of innocent, that's not the same as killing 97.8% of the Imperial Population based on their genetics.

 

Not even closely the same.

If someone orders you to defend genocide, and you do it. Then you are as much of a villain as they are.

"The only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing"

The jedi never disobey the senate, they did nothing to stop Revan's attempted genocide. The only reason it was stopped was because of the Empire and the Sith.

In the perspective the Sith stopped genocide and the Jedi enforced it.

And the senate is corrupt as ****. If you honestly believe that the Republic is a democracy then you either haven't read much about Star Wars or you are incredibly naive.

The senate is not ruled by the populus of the Republic, its ruled by money, lust for power and personal vendettas. Just like modern politics.

The will of the people is but a minor annoyance. After all the jedi do whatever the council wants, so it would be useless to rebel against the senate.

 

 

And before you dare say "But the jedi can disobey!" No. No they cant.

Ladies and gentlemen of the Jury, i point you to Jedi Knight prologue on Tython.

After getting Jedi Master Orgus Din as your master you go to his chambers to collect your gear. There he asks you if you have any questions, you can question him about the republic. I quote.

 

"The Republic shouldn't be telling the Jedi what to do." - Jedi Knight

 

Master Orgus Din: "Forgot how impressionable Padawans can be. Remember, Jedi exist to serve the Republic--even when we disagree."

 

 

AHA! Finally some facts in this thread of opinions. You cant argue against this, that is exactly what Master Din said. He is a member of the Jedi Council, if he says it, its probably pretty widely accepted.

 

 

Individual Sith can be good or evil. There are, however, more dominant evil-doers at the higher echalons of society. People who condone slavery, inhumane medical experiments, destruction of planets and xenophobic ostracization of other species.

 

The Sith code in and of itself is not "evil" - it basically asserts the rights of an individual. However, this is taken to the extreme by the society, because the individual doesn't give any degree of respect to the rights of other individuals. Or to those in the society that don't have "the force".

But the mere fact that they are Sith does not make them "evil" - all depends on their behavior.

For instance, the Sith who the Knight encounters, I believe on Tattooine, <light side spares, and who later fights on the Jedi side on Corellia> could be considered an example of this.

 

The Jedi Code on the other hand isn't the ideal either. And in practice, taking children away from their parents, and frowning on emotions and attachments - hardly conducive to a healthy lifestyle.

 

THIS ^

 

This is what I've been trying to say (very badly from my part) This is what i mean. Both orders are bad. The jedis are not galactic heroes, they are people like everyone else. And all people have the capacity for great good and great evil.

The jedi are no exception.

 

 

 

Now i hope that this will calm down, and that opinions will be panned out and that facts will emerge.

[Leklor]

I'm sorry but I just lol every time I see people defending the Sith Code as a good thing.

David Gaider, the BW Writer who created it for Kotor, said himself that the code was largely based on Hitler's own philosophy as written in "Mein Kampf". You what you want but when the writer himself claims to have based the philosophy of his vilains on the writing of one of the worst man to ever walk the earth, you can't defend it as "good".

The Sith Code is an EXCUSE by the Sith to do anything they want. Their code is basically "Set yourself no limits, kill every fu**** who disagrees with you, wipe your boots on the first inoocent's face you cross in the street and kill anything that doesn't suit you."

 

The Jedi Code is imperfect, it's flawed. But it's a mantra of self-improvement. It seeks to make a better man out of the person following it, even if it as gottent far too restrictive in time.

 

I believe the code of the Je'daii as written in the pages of "Dawn of the Jedis" is a much more relaxed and realistice world view:

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.

There is no fear; there is power.

I am the heart of the Force.

I am the revealing fire of light.

I am the mystery of darkness

In balance with chaos and harmony,

Immortal in the Force.

 

That is a balanced philosophy that doesn't encourage pointless murder and destruction just "because".

 

And for all the flaws and hubris the Jedi Order is guilty of, at least it's trying to help. What did the Sith Order ever do that was remotely positive? The Empire in SWTOR is constantly brought down by infighting in the ruling caste, the Dark Council, Sith that follow their Code.

 

My personal (And definitive) answer to the question "Are the Sith really evil?" is "Yes, yes they are. Their code is a path to destruction in blind pursuit of power and self-satisfaction. "Are the Jedi evil?" is a question that infuriates me because it's completely missing the point the Prequels made. The Jedi are not evil. They are misguided, have grown complacent but are still good at heart. They never abuse their power to hurt innocent, take control of the Republic (Mace never intend to impose Jedi rule in ROTS, simply to force new elections after ousting Palpatine).

 

Feel free to disagree but at this point, I don't care anymore. Defending the Sith Code is wrong because you absolutely can't pretend a code meant to allow every excess and attrocity is a good thing. You can argue the Jedi are imperfect, misguided and hypocrites, I'll agree with you. But the Sith Code hasn't ever, isn't and never will be good.

[CaptainFerrum]

Based of Mein Kampf. Yes I've heard that too. But ill question it.

I understand the simile between the Empire and Nazi Germany. But Nazi Germany hated people and prosecuted them just for the sake of hating people and prosecuting them. The Jews never did anything to the German but were yet blamed for almost everything.

The sith are different, you can't deny that there are many races involved in the Empire. They might be discriminated, yes. But not prosecuted solely based on their race.

I think its a better comparison to take modern day American and the Empire.

Extremely jingoistic, militaristic, xenophobic and fairly discriminating against minorities.

 

But its not to the grade where they kill thousands of people based on their race. Examples of this is of course, Darth Tenebrous or Darth Plagueis.

Both were aliens, both were able to become high ranking leaders of the Sith order. Being an alien in the Empire doesn't automatically means that you are dead, it does mean that you will have to work much harder to achieve things in your life because of the massive jingoism and Xenophobia of The Empire.

 

So no, i don't doubt that he did base the sith code of Mein Kampf. But i think he did it poorly, because the Empire at least gives people a chance.

A small chance albeit, but still a chance.

 

 

I would agree, the empire are bad guys if it wasn't for that small detail that the Republic did try to commit genocide.

 

Now i know quite a lot of you are bigger star wars nerds than me, so i wouldn't mind if you corrected me. But from what i know, the Sith have never committed genocide on such a massive scale.

 

As said before, i'm not justifying the Empire, i'm explaining why the Republic are not good guys.

They are both bad, its a classic Soviet Union vs Nazi Germany situation.

I would prefer if they both lost.

 

 

Grey jedis for life!