Gunslinger - why no class should touch our DPS.

[genesiser]

The point he's making is you can stop on a dime and start casting. We have to deal with a global cooldown on our cover, which is about 1.5 seconds, then start casting our 1.5 second non-channeled abilities.

 

The only exception here would be Sharpshooter tree, which will allow you to fire off the first charge burst the instant you get into cover.

 

When a commando gets stunned and rooted by charge or zealous leap, they can fight back. When a gunslinger gets stunned and rooted by a charge or a zealous leap, we can auto attack and hope that when we get behind cover again we won't be dead.

 

Commando can easily fire the person away, gunslinger has to be behind cover to pulse people back.

 

Sharpshooter is the most heavy hitting of the trees, and has the least amount of mobility. Saboteur has a lot more survivability but puts out less damage than the other two trees. Dirty Fighting has a lot of kiting ability, but lacks the burst and survivability to be really viable against any other class.

 

There are a lot of issues with how little damage gunslinger can do compared to other classes who have more mobility and survivability. That's the brunt of the problems with the class.

 

Your argument would fine except for the fact that taking a knee to get behind cover doesn't cause a global cooldown. When I hit the cover button and charged burst, charged burst goes off as soon as I hit the button. Same with any other ability, as soon as I hit the button it starts casting and goes off after the cast. No waiting on a gcd to get behind cover. There might be one on the cover skill, or the one where you jump behind something, but I haven't used that in forever and just use the one to take a knee and get behind my screen.

 

Seeing as there is no gcd on cover, your argument is invalid.

[Awakelol]

Gunslinger dmg/dps IS the highest out of all the AC's. I don't see a problem here.

 

Sentinels/marauders can do respectable dmg as well, but their melee requirement causes them to lose out overall from fight mechanic restrictions and otherwise movement impairing scenarios where being a ranged class takes a full advantage.

 

We are the glass cannons of this game, not sorcs/sages.

[Awakelol]

Seeing as there is no gcd on cover, your argument is invalid.

 

Rolling into cover and dropping portable cover have animation times. To my knowledge no other AC has to stop in place for a second before they can start casting. The animation time is very minimal, but it is there.

[chamberlord]

Gunslinger dmg/dps IS the highest out of all the AC's. I don't see a problem here.

 

Simply no.

 

GS's do good dps, do not get me wrong. However, its unfair to put a GS in competition for top dps with hybrid classes. Gunslinger's should be the glass cannons, simply because their is no other option they are not Hybrids. Pure DPS and pure DPS only.

[Awakelol]

Simply no.

 

GS's do good dps, do not get me wrong. However, its unfair to put a GS in competition for top dps with hybrid classes. Gunslinger's should be the glass cannons, simply because their is no other option they are not Hybrids. Pure DPS and pure DPS only.

 

In full Rakata gear as full DF spec, I out dmg everyone. No if ands or buts. That includes our sentinel, sage, and commando in equivalent gear.

 

If you aren't putting out higher dmg than everyone else, you are either undergeared, or are not playing optimally.

[Twigjit]

In full Rakata gear as full DF spec, I out dmg everyone. No if ands or buts. That includes our sentinel, sage, and commando in equivalent gear.

 

If you aren't putting out higher dmg than everyone else, you are either undergeared, or are not playing optimally.

 

Meters to prove it? And im not talking the bg ones. Anyone can run around as DF spec and dot everything and get top dmg.

 

Edit also your talking about the best gear in the game. I would love to have that gear unfortunatly everything my guild does they gear the healers first then they gear me and we rarely get any smuggler drops.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Twigjit

[EasternWind]

In full Rakata gear as full DF spec, I out dmg everyone. No if ands or buts. That includes our sentinel, sage, and commando in equivalent gear.

 

If you aren't putting out higher dmg than everyone else, you are either undergeared, or are not playing optimally.

 

This is untrue, however which way you spin it, especially in pvp.

I run with a premade 4man grp which includes a dps guardian, dps sage, myself as a Sabo/DF hybrid and a commando healer. All of us have over 680 expertise, use adrenals/relics/stims and we are always close in dps within about 10-20k give or take based on various factors, upto and including focus fire/cc/etc.

 

we are not the definitive top dps dog that some people make us out to be. Definitely the top 3 or 4 in dps, but it's not as clear as black and white, and is especially true now that people know how dangerous I am once I'm spotted.

 

Case in point, I was in a voidstar last night in which I had 3 marauders, just chain charging and force choking me for pretty much the entire match, and I was effectively locked down, and managed to do a measley 370k whilst our guardian was able to pull in nearly 500k.

 

P.S. I tried full DF and it's not my cup of tea.

[chamberlord]

In full Rakata gear as full DF spec, I out dmg everyone. No if ands or buts. That includes our sentinel, sage, and commando in equivalent gear.

 

If you aren't putting out higher dmg than everyone else, you are either undergeared, or are not playing optimally.

 

Are you sure you aren't a trooper or inquisitor that is pretending to be a gunslinger, just to troll this forum?

 

In full Rakata gear I feel like I am just bearly keeping up with a trooper I roll with. In Pvp he murders my dps (however, this is largely due to the fact that he can run and gun.... and as awkward as it sounds Gunslingers DONT run and gun). Inquisitors in pvp I don't even want to get into, they are just absurd.

 

I love the gunslinger class I do well in pvp and in raids, I am just pointing out the absurdity of hybrid classes that have the options of healing or tanking are able to pull close to the same or higher dps. We are a pure dps.

 

Plain and simple it is ******** that we aren't unquestionably on top when placed against equally geared hybrids.

 

So go back to whichever hybrid board you actually belong and just keep bragging about how OP you are. Eventually you will be nerfed or they will fix the other classes. So just sit in your tower for now.

[ladybastilla]

We should definitely have solid enough DPS (along with Sentinel) to ensure that our class is a viable and acceptable participant in operations, flashpoints, etc. But BioWare must also be careful not to overdo this to the point that every other class in the entire game is strictly relegated to being a tank or healer.

 

Success in any class should require a certain level of skill. If the numbers all by themselves are so rawly better it will lead to people rolling the class out of sheer laziness which will eventually cause a stigma to be attached to it.

 

Besides that -- as a sentinel or gunslinger you are already getting a get out of jail free card of sorts to begin with. There is no obligation to anyone else -- it's physically impossible to be a healer or a tank, so anyone playing this way has already relegated out of the mass majority of responsibilities the game has (healer and tank) and now you want to be rewarded for that? No. You should be working for that DPS, because I can assure you that tanks and healers are working twice as hard as you even on your *worst* days.

 

Your reward is the freedom from pressure to man up and take some responsibility. As for your DPS? It should be solid and it should definitely be leading the pack. But not to a point where you risk putting other classes outta commission. If these classes got too big a lead it would absolve them from any type of effort whatsoever, and that's unacceptable.

 

-- A sniper AND gunslinger who doesn't want to be cheated out of honest work.

[Awakelol]

Meters to prove it? And im not talking the bg ones. Anyone can run around as DF spec and dot everything and get top dmg.

 

Obviously there are no meters. But there are ways of testing dmg. You can't track exact numbers and all that, but all you need is a good ol fashion stopwatch and something to beat on for a while. 4th boss in EV for example, you can solo the mob and time your dmg without aggro'ing the other mobs.

 

And about the PvP thing. Obviously PvP you can top meters all the time, or end up getting screwed if you get focued a whole match and not left alone. So those numbers can be varied, but generally as GS I'm practically always top dmg by quite a substantial margin. Consistency is usually a pretty telling factor.

 

And for you saying that other classes have better dmg. You aren't doing it right. Sentinel and Commando aren't far behind, but that's the way it's supposed to be. No one class should be ridiculously higher than the others. From my experience Sharpshooter dmg is lower than DF from what I've tested, if that makes a difference to anyone.

[chamberlord]

it's physically impossible to be a healer or a tank, so anyone playing this way has already relegated out of the mass majority of responsibilities the game has (healer and tank) and now you want to be rewarded for that? No. You should be working for that DPS, because I can assure you that tanks and healers are working twice as hard as you even on your *worst* days.

 

Your reward is the freedom from pressure to man up and take some responsibility.

 

Lady, your confused. Classes are rewarded by having that level of flexibility. Tanking and healing is not harder then anything else in this game. It is just different. If you are dpsing and your aren't giving the same level of attention that a healer or tank gives you will fail.

 

I totally disagree. If you have the ability to heal/tank and dps than when placed against a pure dps thats, equally geared/skilled, the pure DPS should out dps the hybrid every time period(.) If you can heal/tank and out dps a pure dps, why would anyone roll a pure dps? your logic is flawed.

 

No one class should be ridiculously higher than the others.

 

I agree with you 100% here. 10-20% higher is not ridiculous. but, that's my opinion.

[dougan]

Our knock back should be usable out of cover--no question.

 

Roots shouldn't prevent cover. This has to be an oversight by the devs. If you're in cover and you get rooted, you don't leave cover...so why if you're out of cover and rooted, can't you enter cover? Just dumb.

 

Other DPS ACs should have "stances" they need to be in for DPS, healing, and/or hybrid. The DPS "stance" needs to drastically reduce their healing ability. It's really stupid that a fully DPS-specced Sage/Sorc can crit 2 heals on himself to replenish half his health pool.

 

Let them keep their DPS, just don't let them heal so damn much.

 

That, or give GSs some kind of self-heal.

Edited February 9, 2012 by dougan

[nubzz]

I am always at the top of the chart for dmg. The only two classes I notice have topped me (and in some cases quite handily) are sage/sorc and mercs. I get around 350k in voidstar regularly, thought that was pretty decent and noticed at the top in a game yesterday a merc with over 500k.

[Xzenorath]

Lady, your confused. Classes are rewarded by having that level of flexibility. Tanking and healing is not harder then anything else in this game. It is just different. If you are dpsing and your aren't giving the same level of attention that a healer or tank gives you will fail.

 

I totally disagree. If you have the ability to heal/tank and dps than when placed against a pure dps thats, equally geared/skilled, the pure DPS should out dps the hybrid every time period(.) If you can heal/tank and out dps a pure dps, why would anyone roll a pure dps? your logic is flawed.

 

 

 

I agree with you 100% here. 10-20% higher is not ridiculous. but, that's my opinion.

 

That's a ridiculous mentality.

 

As per your logic, every DPS slot would and should be filled with Gunslingers or Sentinels, because that's all they can do.

 

That's absolutely short sighted and ignorant.

 

It doesn't matter if my Trooper CAN spec for heals, he's specced Gunnery and is pure DPS, your argument that I should be doing 10 to 20%(holy **** 20%?) because I CAN spec heals is ludicrous, I'm a pure DPS spec Trooper, there's absolutely ZERO reason for me to do less damage than you.

 

If your argument is that I have better survivability, then they need to tweak YOUR survivability to bring it up to par to other classes, not boost your damage.

[Xzenorath]

I am always at the top of the chart for dmg. The only two classes I notice have topped me (and in some cases quite handily) are sage/sorc and mercs. I get around 350k in voidstar regularly, thought that was pretty decent and noticed at the top in a game yesterday a merc with over 500k.

 

Nobody does 500k dmg without either one of two things happening:

-They had a healbot and outgeared everyone by a large margin

-They AoE'd the entire game

 

Either way, the issue isn't that they can do so much damage versus your 350k, the issue is that he did 500k dmg for 2 spots (his and a healer) versus your single 350k.

 

If he spent the whole game AoEing to top the charts, more power to him. His damage was pointless and ineffective. You don't win games by AoEing stacks of people. You win by playing smarter than the other team.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Xzenorath

[chamberlord]

You sound very defensive, like you know deep down I am right and just don't want it to be true.

 

No every dps slot will not be filled only by pure dps. DPS for hybrids should remain totally viable. Its a tricky balance. But, unless they are better geared they should not be out dpsing pure dps.

 

Btw, it makes perfect sense. I know you would love to remain OP. However, that sort of mentality is what keeps mmo's from excelling.

Edited February 9, 2012 by chamberlord

[ColeWorld]

There should be more definitive rolls in the game for classes.

 

 

 

Gunslingers shouldn't -just- be high DPS classes. They should have another job that their skillset hints towards, in pvp at least. I originally thought that Gunslinger and Snipers would be there initially for Damage and area prevention. Instead of just lolsingletargetburst they'd actually have more to do than focus on one target and get bursted down if his teammate comes.

 

Taking on a sniper shouldn't just be a head-on thing where you just run to him, manuever around cover unless he uses 1 of his like 3 CC abilities to stop you for a brief period of time before rushing back towards you. Every class should have their own distinct sub-role instead of just being virtually the same class with just a different levels of survivability.

[Chaede]

You sound very defensive, like you know deep down I am right and just don't want it to be true.

 

No every dps slot will not be filled only by pure dps. DPS for hybrids should remain totally viable. Its a tricky balance. But, unless they are better geared they should not be out dpsing pure dps.

 

Btw, it makes perfect sense. I know you would love to remain OP. However, that sort of mentality is what keeps mmo's from excelling.

 

No your not right just someone that feels that their class should make them do the biggest numbers so they can feel leet!!!!

 

You forget that cover makes gunsligers immune to pulls, increases their ranged defense etc. So no you do have utility. Also the 'pure dps' thing went out the window years ago and was something that was associated with WoW and even they canned it as a bad idea.

 

Stop thinking that because you chose X class you should be entitled to easy mode being the best at arguably the least important role in the game. Your argument fails on the fact that you think you don't bring utility... except you have an aoe disorient, snares etc.

 

Gunslingers bring plenty of utility + cc. Just because you don't use yours or feel it is understated does not mean its not there and useful.

 

I could make an argument equally fallacious as yours and say that melee classes should do more damage than any ranged class because they have to be in melee where as Gunslingers can do it easy mode from range without risk.

 

Seriously, does it matter? I mean if your group can beat the Operation/Flashpoint'/challenge because they worked together, does it matter who does the best damage?

[Spasmbot]

No your not right just someone that feels that their class should make them do the biggest numbers so they can feel leet!!!!

 

You forget that cover makes gunsligers immune to pulls, increases their ranged defense etc.

 

All classes ignore the defense bonus of cover in PvP barring a small selection of abilities. FORCE/TECH ABILITIES IGNORE RANGED DEFENSE CHANCE.

 

So no you do have utility. Also the 'pure dps' thing went out the window years ago and was something that was associated with WoW and even they canned it as a bad idea.

 

Our CC's are too fragile, too few, and cooldown too slowly to be considered utility.

 

Stop thinking that because you chose X class you should be entitled to easy mode being the best at arguably the least important role in the game. Your argument fails on the fact that you think you don't bring utility... except you have an aoe disorient, snares etc.

 

Wanting the class you chose to be good at what it's supposed to do is not wanting easy mode. Currently if you rolled a sage/sorceror you'd do more damage in a PvE setting, have utility in PvP and PvE, have the option to spec healing, and PvP damage that is comparable. There is no mechanical reason to be a gunslinger or a sniper currently.

 

Gunslingers bring plenty of utility + cc. Just because you don't use yours or feel it is understated does not mean its not there and useful.

 

Just because you keep saying this does not make it true, our AOE disorient is on a minute long CD, our stun is melee and if you're a gunslinger is practically a second shorter duration than a snipers, leg shot is probably our only really useful CC move but it is broken after 2 seconds. Pulse detonator requires you to root yourself so you can't get any amount of precision out of it in PvP settings.

 

I could make an argument equally fallacious as yours and say that melee classes should do more damage than any ranged class because they have to be in melee where as Gunslingers can do it easy mode from range without risk.

 

Pure melee DPS like Sentinels/Marauders should do about the same as Gunslingers/Snipers in PvE settings, but endgame mechanics currently punish melee unfairly, so I think even if they were equal currently you'd see ranged ahead of them.

 

Seriously, does it matter? I mean if your group can beat the Operation/Flashpoint'/challenge because they worked together, does it matter who does the best damage?

 

Just because the endgame content in the game is easy currently doesn't excuse poorly designed mechanics.

 

 

bolded and red.

[Captain_Mark]

bolded and red.

 

What he said. Been trying to get enough commendations for some pvp gear so I can go do hard mode FP's with my guild but pvp is not a viable option for gunslingers at the moment because we just die too easily. I get chain CC'd and leapt on by the fecking sorcs (god I hate them) and we have no effective short range counter or escape options. And if force using classes have their buffs and shields up, our DPS currently goes to waste, taking what is supposed to be my most effective ability (to cut dudes down quickly) out of play.

[xMasterful]

I agree with the OP. I may be biased since my main is a Gunslinger but this AC should definitely be in the top 3 AC's for dps for all the reasons stated by the op.

[ThePoomz]

The real question is, what incentive do I have to play as a Gunslinger compared to a DPS specced Jedi/Commando. Commandos get Heavy Armor and heals. Gunglingers are in Medium Armor. Case closed.

 

I'm a Gunslinger in full Champion gear. I generally finish top 2 in DMG almost every game. When I'm not #1 I'm outdamaged by the following:

 

DPS specced Consulars

DPS specced Commandos

Mercenarys

Mercenarys

Mercenarys

 

Mercenarys are close to impossible for me to kill 1 on 1. It shouldn't be easy, but even if all the chips play out in my favor I have so much trouble with that class. (It isn't me not using my disrupt, I'm not an idiot).

 

My suggestions to fix this class are to up the damage. Plain and simple. We are a squishy class once people get close, and we SHOULD die against certain classes. But we should also be able to output enough damage to make up for the lack of tools that most other classes have.

Edited February 10, 2012 by ThePoomz

[Ralnity]

(With the exception of the Jedi Sentinel who should have equivalent dps with equal gear.)

 

Argument:

Smuggler - Gunslinger should have unquestionably the most brutal heavy hitting sustainable damage. It should only be natural to see the Gunslinger at the top of the DPS charts, especially in a group of equally geared classes. It is absurd to have any class with equal gear to have the ability to out dps a Gunslinger.

 

Reasoning:

 

1 - No versatility

You have one choice and one choice only after you choose a GS as your main class. This choice is to DPS. If you get tired of DPSing and you want to change your spec you can choose between 2 other DPS trees. No healing. No tanking. No Utility. Just DPSing.

 

2 - Low to no mobility

Many of the GS most important skills require the slinger to be in-cover. This means no movement. If you get knocked out of cover you must get back into cover to continue being an affective class. One GS tree, the Sharpshooter, requires that the GS stay in cover permanently. This adds an extra level of difficulty to both raid and pvp situations.

 

3 - Low HP Low Armor

Take any class on the battle field, if your goal is to kill the one that will drop the quickest. A gunslinger would be your first choice. We have some of the lowest HP and Armor class out of any class.

 

4 - No CC

Kick, and Flash grenades are stuns. The effect is to minimal to ever be considered CC, so don't even attempt to argue that it is.

 

5 - Low Utility

No ability to move quickly in PVP. No force speed, no force jump. No invis. No escape.

 

 

My main is now my level 50 slinger. I changed over from Sage. I am pretty epic'd out at this point, wearing quite a bit of Rakata gear and wielding 2 Rakata guns. My sage is also Rakata'd out with his rakata saber. I throw these credentials out there to let you know I have experience with not one, but two classes clearing everything on nightmare and doing lots of pvp.

 

We'll start with your main point.

 

Argument:

 

While this is logical and I can see why you think this, in reality it is a flawed argument. The problem with this line of thinking is that if you make one class do more damage than the others, even if it is justified in that they can do nothing else, it soon becomes a game of anyone who wants to seriously clear end game content as fast as possible will bring almost exclusively slingers. Ya, you might squeeze in something else if you need their buff or someone who can sap or something, but mostly why would you bring anything but the highest dps class for your dps spots?

 

1 - No versatility

 

While this is true, we have 3 different ways to do damage. Most classes only have 2. One pvp spec, and one pve spec. So, for example, if you hate the way a sage dps's by standing there spamming disturbances until something procs, well, you don't really have any other good options except to become a healer.

 

2 - Low to no mobility

 

This is true of only one spec. Also, even SS spec encourages getting up and moving every 6ish seconds to get another insta-charged burst and to refresh your ballistic dampeners.

 

3 - Low HP Low Armor

 

This one is mostly true. We are squishy. That being said, we have much more armor than sages or non-tank shadows, and we do have some very nice defenses in defense screen and dodge. Also, it is a BIG deal that cover makes us immune to interrupts, unable to be charged to, and hunker down is flat out one of the best abilities in the game making us immune to all forms of CC or knockaround for 20!!! seconds. You can plant, turn on hunker down, and nobody can do anything to you except run away while you blast them to smithereens.

 

Sentinels/marauders are a bit silly in their ability to go invulnerable or to vanish (and be invulerable while invis) though. We can't compete with that.

 

4 - No CC

 

5 - Low Utility

 

Flashbang is amazing in pvp as it is the only area effect CC that works on players. Although, slicing droids is an amazing CC when you do need it due to having no cool down. Sage force lift can CC anything, but it has a 1 minute cooldown, so if someone breaks your CC, tough cookies, can't re-cc.

 

Our utility is in scrambling field. That ability is pretty damn good on some of the tougher fights in the nightmare ops. It's worth bringing a slinger just for that ability. We have the best armor reducing ability in flourish shot (20% reduction in a single debuff, no stacking required). XS Freighter Flyby is probably the single greatest AE ability in the whole game in both pvp and pve. In pvp, scrambling field can be ok, but it is our flashbangs and having the best "knock everything 20 miles away and root them ability" in pulse detonator.

 

 

So, as a fellow slinger, i'm here to tell you that your argument is pretty much wrong. Thank you.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Ralnity

[Calastrophe]

Fo every gunslinger on these forums that isn't "topping the damage charts" there is another one who is. Ironically this could be said for the majority of classes.

 

The funny thing about these arguments is that they are all based on gut-feeling due to the lack of any combat logs. So whose gut-feeling is more reliable? The answer seems to be no-one's. What is needed is facts, weighted against other classes. But those facts are mostly impossible to produce at this stage of the game.

[CarthOnansi]

I feel the smuggler damage could be tweaked abit just to give us that little bit more for our positioning, I find that the cover system is BS I have been yanked an jumped upon when in cover. Hunker down it pathetic - apart from a cool animation. As I gave been stunned charged and the whole lot.

 

It need sorting!