I won't be ignorant enough to say "They were the exact same before and nobody cared" as thats quite foolish and acting oblivious to the fact that changes to OTHER classes determine how powerful something is. An easy analogy is someone who dishes out 100 DPS and another who dishes out 110. If the person at 110 gets nerfed to 15 DPS of course they are going to call the 100 DPS person OP because compared to them they are OP. Personally I don't think Marauders are OP, I do think however that their cooldowns need a retooling. I'm not going to suggest one and I will suggest a counter: Stun them and wait. Of course any person with half a brain will use their CC breaker during UR. Mara's as a whole can be toned down a bit, and I do think that UR should have at least some nerf to healing done for the time being. Not to the point of uselessness and nothing bigger than 40%, however i've seen some things that seem out of this world some times.

You say this as if the doing 300k damage is important for your team. I can do 300k on a sorc and not even have an impact on weather my team wins or loses. In alderaan you have the survivability to hold off a 3v1 (if you use your cooldowns properly) until help arrives, the same applies to Novare Coast. In voidstar your job is just to sit on a door and make sure no one caps. Hell you could do this with basically your standard attack until help arrives. You may not necessarily hold the attention of your opponents with this sort of spec(as you aren't much of a threat) just try to go for the objectives instead of looking for big numbers and trying to rack up kills. I'll let you in on a little secret, the flow of killing doesn't determine the outcome of the match, its all about controlling movement. If you stay somewhere that they need to get and hold them off you've effectively stopped their movement for X amount of time. Its not the most entertaining spec but every team needs that defensive presence.

Note: This is meant to be a fun thread. Bashing, insults, and offensive comments are not allowed, this is purely meant to be a nice discussion between players who want to talk about SWTOR pvp. Another note is to also not spread misinformation, I don't want to see "Mara's have 6 defensive cooldowns on 45 second timers". So i've been talking with a couple of friends in my pvp guild. We aren't the best but we aren't the worst. However because i'm a fighting game junkie I was filtering through class rankings as if they were a tier list. This is just the way that i'm most comfortable in discussing different classes/archetypes. While I acknowledge that i'm not a great player (which is why most issues arise) I do know what wins games in most cases. If anyone who feels like it wish to participate in this discussion lets try to make a nice little list where everyone thinks which class ranks just where. You don't have to play a class to comment upon it (for example as a Jugg PT's/VG's give me trouble so my opinion is a bit skewwed when it comes to them) however i'd like for at least a little bit of in-depth explanation when ranking. Please also note that in most cases i'm referring to the build that is the most common/most effective (as an Advanced Prototype Powertech would probably rank lower than a Pyrotech Powertech). General S None - I don't think any class is effectively god-tier. Most classes are reliant on others to seem ridiculously OP (for example Mara's without pocket healers don't seem nearly as unstoppable) A Powertechs - They don't require much focus and concentration to do the maximum damage. They also are able to effectively burst down high armor targets if they aren't parried/dodged consistently. They are pretty squishy but their damage output can be fantastic. Marauders - Another class that is fairly strong on the DPS spectrum. They have great defensive cooldowns which make them seem like cockroaches, their DPS on its own isn't enough to warrant A-rank. The fact that they are able to stay alive longer than most so they can continue to keep up the damage for longer amounts of time put them here. B Assassins: They have nice survivability and nice damage, along with good utility. They aren't top of the line in any aspect however which is why I wouldn't put them at A-rank. When you consider how they match up against most other classes it doesn't seem as lopsided as a Mara's/Powertechs chances. Sniper: One of the few classes that I consider balanced. If they are ignored they seem near unstoppable, they have the tools to handle most melee classes that get in their face. They get a significant boost to their status do to how easily they seem to counter Marauders. Operative(Healer): Op healers seem to be fairly important and regarded as the best healers in the game in most aspects. If stuff starts to not go their way the addition of being able to vanish is a strong tool in my mind. They still also have great CC. Juggernaught: Nice spot at the middle of the road. Quite frankly some matchups leave them useless. In a game like huttball is where they shine however. If a team manages their CC properly they aren't much of a threat. They are one of those classes where they can seem unstoppable or gamebreaking if they reach ideal settings. However those chances are few and far in between. They don't have problems with many(however when they have problems they tend to be horrifically tragic), conversely they don't give many problems. C Mercenary(healer): Better than expected by many. They have a 12 second window where they cannot be interrupted thanks to energy shield, but their cast times need to be a bit shorter to bump them up. They need to be less squishy as well or better kiting options as well. Sorcerer(DPS): Better than people give them credit for. They have to pick and choose their fights carefully. They can post big numbers due to AOE's, but their reliance upon kiting is insane. They don't kite as well as a sniper and they don't have enough mobility and survivability to make up for it. Akin to the fifth best player on a basketball team, when the team is doing good they can appear dominant as well however they aren't game changers by themselves on much aside from huttball (if the team doesn't burn them down quick enough) due to pulls. D Sorcerer(Healer): They got the short end of the stick right now. They shouldn't have to go hybrid to be effective, and even with going hybrid they don't have the tools necessary to heal on par with an operative or even a mercenary. Their utility in objectives (force speed, AOE knockback, and pulls) are good in theory for huttball, but when your strategy is effectively "stun and run" it limits your capabilities in warzones that typically require for you to hold your ground and control the flow of movement. Operative (DPS): They seem to take hits every patch. Not entirely sure why, but I did play during December and I have yet to see the "group of stunlocking operatives". If they existed i'd love for their group of 4 to go against any other group of 4 with common sense. I've seen some that can still play effectively, but those are few and far between. Mercenary(DPS): Ammo problems basically ruined this class. They can reach optimal numbers when left alone which is a problem. They don't do well with any sort of pressure placed on them. At least in my personal point of view. If they are meant to be a turret they are supposed to have the tools to keep people away so they can turret. Currently they don't.

At this point capping mid is pointless. If they made a special mid bike that doesn't do that akward loop down and just went straight down like the side bikes do it would be more balanced. But regardless they need to make the side bikes put you further away. No matter what happens if a bike drops me off at mid I still have a little walk to go. Where if someone dispatched me and started capping they can potentially get it if they're fast enough.

Well its because the people who can dominate unrateds as a premade don't adjust often to Rateds. To be honest with a premade its easy to go through just lolkilling everything. Why shouldn't it be? You usually have the advantage of communication, more familiarity with teammates, and the advantage of having class makeup on your side (in most cases). In rated WZ's usually everyone has those advantages. You can be the MVP of a team without killing a single person if you do it right, most don't realize that WZs aren't about killing(even those who try to justify "loltheyinrespawnzone" are wrong) and a team that knows how to efficiently and properly CC will dominate any team that doesn't every day of the week.

Now I feel the need to chip in. I've been watching this thread for a minute. Keep in mind this is coming from the perspective of someone who -isn't- good. I will openly admit it, at pvp i'm not good. I havn't had a game where i'm the worst on the team but I don't consider myself good, elite, great, or above-average by any means. Most problems on this forum come from the fact that everyone believes themselves to be at least above average. Nobody wants to admit that they aren't that great at a game. Some classes have roles and methods that are much more obvious than others. A pyrotech just gets into range and either bursts them down or dies. Consider SWTOR a sports game for this analogy here. I think that other classes aside from the "star" classes which everyone believe to be OP (Pyrotech PT's, Mara's, Tanksins, Op Healers, Snipers, and their respective mirrors) don't have roles cut and dry. All of the classes listed above easily have their roles and tactics easily spelled out. The other classes are the guys that bring the intangibles to the game. If I were a Merc instead I figure my roll would most likely be to keep a low profile while the high priority targets (because lets get real nobody thinks a Merc is high priority) attract the attention while I rain down AOE and support fire. Its not as glamorous as going through and seeing big burst numbers however if played right it can be essential to the team. I won't get that chance to quickly burst someone down if they don't have that damage on them beforehand from my support. There are slight mathematical errors to add to class balance that need to be tweaked with time however they aren't game breaking. The problem is we're trying to paint a zebra brown and make him a race horse. My Jugg DPS(as this is my new main) role and my Powertech DPS role are two differen't things. We both have our specialization in being dealing damage however our approach is different. If I expect to just leap to a target and try to behave like i'm a powertech I won't be nearly as efficient.

This forum is getting really . . . really bad. The man has a legitimate complaint that is his opinion. I don't think someone would go as far as to bring up something to try and deflect attention from a class that CAN be toned down. On a serious note I don't believe Snipers/Slingers need a tone down. If anything the other ranged DPS need to be toned up to their level. Snipers can seem daunting if you don't know how to combat them, and some classes don't have the tools to do it. At the same time Snipers don't have the tools to effectively take out other classes as well. This is what adds this thing called 'variety' to a warzone which makes for a healthier pvp community.

Because there is no incentive to win. Its nice and all to say that you won but at the end of the day if I win with 5 medals (because I defended a node all day) and someone lost with 8 then they're advancing faster than me. If something like say . . . they subtracted a certain amount of medals on a loss (a fair amount would be 2-3) then I bet people would fight tooth n' nail for the win. Instead we have people 8 people sitting at a lone node because "lol we can't beat them might as well get def medals".

I'm sorry but . . there isn't any class in this game that is difficult to play. Not many classes in this game require "skill". I believe you're talking about Pyrotech PT's by the way. TTK in this game is ridiculously short. They, and (Forgot the spec name off the top of the head) marauders need to be toned down. Although i'm personally against that, I believe every other class should be pushed up a bit. This way makes just about everyone happy and nobody has to complain that they've been nerfed into the ground. It takes more work so bioware won't do it. . . But you know 'according to metrics' everything is working as intended.

Thats because for the republic side they have to do typical cliches. Most stories that are about rainbows and lollypops don't really appeal to the average gamer that isn't a child (which i'm going to assume you aren't). Todays society is where "better" stories tend to be darker and edgier. While the republic side generally has themes that would be interesting if we hadn't seen most of them before. We've never gotten to play a truly imperial character in a story driven game which is why its most likely more interesting to you to be a sith warrior or an imperial agent instead of a trooper or a consular. If you find going out to save things earnestly not your cup of tea, perhaps you aren't meant to be a light sided Jedi Knight. While I play a BH now, I do feel slightly bad for some of the darkside options that I take.

Well it depends on the scenario. If we're talking about open field like 'Deadliest Warrior' , where both combatants see each other and instantly charge into combat it favors Knights, Warriors, Inquisitors, Consulars, and to a lesser extent Bounty Hunter and Troopers. If we're talking about both sides being aware of the others presence, but not knowing exact location just yet it favors Smugglers and Agents. If we're talking about Rock/Paper/Scissors? I'd put my money on the Imperial Agent. A foot race? Consular and Inquisitor. See what i'm getting at?

Agreed with the OP. I only joined because I wanted to get through with every class quest/story, and then chill for a couple of months before coming back to all the new PvE and PvP content so I can have part 2 of my story.

There should be more definitive rolls in the game for classes. Gunslingers shouldn't -just- be high DPS classes. They should have another job that their skillset hints towards, in pvp at least. I originally thought that Gunslinger and Snipers would be there initially for Damage and area prevention. Instead of just lolsingletargetburst they'd actually have more to do than focus on one target and get bursted down if his teammate comes. Taking on a sniper shouldn't just be a head-on thing where you just run to him, manuever around cover unless he uses 1 of his like 3 CC abilities to stop you for a brief period of time before rushing back towards you. Every class should have their own distinct sub-role instead of just being virtually the same class with just a different levels of survivability.

Only people that can be blamed are the people that go around the forums talking about how they got "Three shotted" As a person who has played just about every class on my original account to at least 40 I can say there are many of these little "myths" that run around the forums that get really irritating. The reason its irritating because its more effective when swaying bioware. They have yet to realize that for every forum post that is complaining about something like "Ops Burst too high" theres at least another person who is okay with the damage they're doing. Nerfing Surge does nothing but throw the whole game out of whack. You don't adjust mechanics that affects every class in the game. Now Raids are out of whack, PvP is out of Whack, regular PvE is out of whack. This is gonna be a pain in the backside.

Get to 50 and get full gear. If you complain after than then you may validly have something on your hands but I havn't seen it.