ST/Pyro hybrid (Carolina Parakeet) up for nerfs next?

[Topherend]

Today's PTS notes show changes for Assassins. Looks like there looking at one or two classes at a time and either buffing em or nerfing em or buffing in some areas nerfing in other.

 

1.How Long before the"Carolina Parakeet" (21/2/18 hybrid ST/Pyro build) gets nerfed.

 

2. What are our options if this build gets waxed? (Yes I know some say jump this bridge when we get there)

[Umpire]

You can't plan on what to do if they nerf the parakeet because the nerfs will change the trees.

 

That said, unfortunately yes, I think the nerf is coming. When I go into a warzone with one healer, we can tank (and kill! important) an entire voidstar team and I can get 10 medals no problem (12 with a clever use of game mechanics). I'm not trying to be "omg i'm so good", I'm trying to say that there are times when I definitely feel overpowered.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Umpire

[Jaysun]

why would they nerf it? you can't balance/start nerfing based upon PVP..

[The_Beastwood]

They don't nerf a build they nerf certainly abilties. Bioware don't go "Oooh like a new build lets ruin it!"

 

 

Pyrotech DPS is much more likely to be nerfed.

 

In fact any DPS is gonna get nerfed because any tanking spec because half the tank stats are weakish in PVP.

[Rykke]

Worry about nerfs/buffs when they come, there's no point in thinking about it when all you have to base from is the recent Assassin changes. That being said the ST/Pyro is just the slightly angrier cousin of a ST/AP. Both fill similar roles just their specific niche is slightly different.

[ericdjobs]

They don't nerf a build they nerf certainly abilties. Bioware don't go "Oooh like a new build lets ruin it!"

 

 

Pyrotech DPS is much more likely to be nerfed.

 

In fact any DPS is gonna get nerfed because any tanking spec because half the tank stats are weakish in PVP.

 

If they nerf Pyrotech DPS it's going to have rather large PvE impacts.

 

Pyrotech Powertechs currently do some of the best PvE dps in the game, and I like my raid spot as top damange dealer, thank you.

 

If they nerf PT I will simply play my 50 sorc and further compound the problem...

 

(I say this becuase I kill my mob on EV council a good 5-6 seconds before our sniper, which does uber DPS)

Edited February 6, 2012 by ericdjobs

[exphryl]

If they nerf Pyrotech DPS it's going to have rather large PvE impacts.

 

Pyrotech Powertechs currently do some of the best PvE dps in the game, and I like my raid spot as top damange dealer, thank you.

 

If they nerf PT I will simply play my 50 sorc and further compound the problem...

 

(I say this becuase I kill my mob on EV council a good 5-6 seconds before our sniper, which does uber DPS)

 

I like the parses and combat logs available so we can see how you are top DPS

 

Oh wait....

[Mapex]

Like Beastwood mentioned, they don't nerf specs. Hell, they try to encourage hybrid specs: they are genuinely interested in the creations players achieve (I think it was James Ohlen himself mentioned this back in the summer).

 

But if there's an abusive build that is just too good at too many things simultaneously they will rearrange or nerf skills that encourage the playstyle.

 

That said, Carolina Parakeet is very obviously broken. There's no problem being a tanky damage dealer who uses IGC and Guards squishies while laying some pain. However, choosing such a build should have trade offs. With such a hybrid build you should not have higher damage than all the damage dealers while simultaneously having higher protection than all the tanks as well.

 

If it wasn't already clear, the Rail Shot talents are way too low in the trees to be remotely balanced for a hybrid spec. Furthermore, the PyroTech-specific Rail Shot talents function without CGC or IM, contrary to their prerequisites.

 

What I foresee happening is any combination of the following:

• PPA moved higher into the PyroTech tree
  
  • Pros: only pure PyroTechs benefit from the talent
    
  • Cons: PyroTech becomes very boring during leveling process until higher in the tree
    
  • Chance of this happening: low (requires too much rearranging of talents)
    

  [*]PPA and Superheated Rail require CGC

  • Pros: only CGC users (pure PyroTechs and some non-tank hybrid builds) benefit from the talents
    
  • Cons: skill tree tooltip bloat (tooltips become very bloated, making them harder to follow and comprehend)
    
  • Chance of this happening: moderate (though the skills become harder to maintain)
    

  [*]PPA reverted to old version that procced off IM ticks (but with higher chance than previously)

  • Pros: emphasizes PyroTech's DoT focus (it was never supposed to be a burst damage tree)
    
  • Cons: loss of PyroTech's constant burst damage, which will upset those who have grown accustomed to this proc; loss of overall DPS (which will require yet another patch to rebuff)
    
  • Chance of this happening: moderate (again, may alienate some players, but it was the intended design for the skill tree in the first place)
    

  [*]Puncture (Advanced Prototype) moved higher in the tree

  • Pros: defines PyroTech's Rail Shot as consistent and AP's Rail Shot as heavy hitting
    
  • Cons: PyroTech burst and overall DPS loss, may hinder multiple builds
    
  • Chance of this happening: low-medium (too many builds are based around the 60% armor pen, but this could be just one piece of an overall balancing decision)
    

Edited February 6, 2012 by Mapex

[Dharagada]

Like Beastwood mentioned, they don't nerf specs. Hell, they try to encourage hybrid specs: they are genuinely interested in the creations players achieve (I think it was James Ohlen himself mentioned this back in the summer).

 

But if there's an abusive build that is just too good at too many things simultaneously they will rearrange or nerf skills that encourage the playstyle.

 

That said, Carolina Parakeet is very obviously broken. There's no problem being a tanky damage dealer who uses IGC and Guards squishies while laying some pain. However, choosing such a build should have trade offs. With such a hybrid build you should not have higher damage than all the damage dealers while simultaneously having higher protection than all the tanks as well.

 

If it wasn't already clear, the Rail Shot talents are way too low in the trees to be remotely balanced for a hybrid spec. Furthermore, the PyroTech-specific Rail Shot talents function without CGC or IM, contrary to their prerequisites.

 

What I foresee happening is any combination of the following:

• PPA moved higher into the PyroTech tree
  
  • Pros: only pure PyroTechs benefit from the talent
    
  • Cons: PyroTech becomes very boring during leveling process until higher in the tree
    
  • Chance of this happening: low (requires too much rearranging of talents)
    

  [*]PPA and Superheated Rail require CGC

  • Pros: only CGC users (pure PyroTechs and some non-tank hybrid builds) benefit from the talents
    
  • Cons: skill tree tooltip bloat (tooltips become very bloated, making them harder to follow and comprehend)
    
  • Chance of this happening: moderate (though the skills become harder to maintain)
    

  [*]PPA reverted to old version that procced off IM ticks (but with higher chance than previously)

  • Pros: emphasizes PyroTech's DoT focus (it was never supposed to be a burst damage tree)
    
  • Cons: loss of PyroTech's constant burst damage, which will upset those who have grown accustomed to this proc; loss of overall DPS (which will require yet another patch to rebuff)
    
  • Chance of this happening: moderate (again, may alienate some players, but it was the intended design for the skill tree in the first place)
    

  [*]Puncture (Advanced Prototype) moved higher in the tree

  • Pros: defines PyroTech's Rail Shot as consistent and AP's Rail Shot as heavy hitting
    
  • Cons: PyroTech burst and overall DPS loss, may hinder multiple builds
    
  • Chance of this happening: low-medium (too many builds are based around the 60% armor pen, but this could be just one piece of an overall balancing decision)
    

 

 

...If parakeet is beating your other dpsers in warzones then either they are getting the chance to abuse the hell out of their aoe, or the other dpsers are doing something horribly wrong.

 

As for Pyrotech in general, I don't know if our damage dealing needs a nerf or not, however if they do think we need a nerf due to our damage then I think we would need some adjustment in the mobility (or surviabilty) department.

 

The only thing Pyro really has is a good offense, it's very much kill or be killed (and you will be killed if friends show up).

Edited February 6, 2012 by Dharagada

[ZNICK]

The CP build neither out DPS's a pure DPS specced build nor is more defensive than a pure tanking build... it just gives good balance between the two.

 

Z

[Sabbathius]

why would they nerf it? you can't balance/start nerfing based upon PVP..

 

Same reason they're nerfing Sin hybrids in 1.1.2 - they don't want people to play hybrid specs. They want everyone to pick a tree and go 31+ points into it.

 

The good news is, they buffed Wither. Which is Assassins' version of Heat Blast (Shieldtech 31 pointer). So when the nerf to Parakeet comes, at least Heat Blast will likely be looked at too.

 

I'm pretty sure the nerf IS coming though. Though I think the next patch notes will tell the story. If the patch notes kills some other class' hybrid specs, then we'll know for sure that's their plan. If not, then it'll be time to start pushing for a new guy to be put in charge of Sins' development, and the current guy can go back to picking lice off the monkey at the zoo.

[chainsawsamurai]

All I have to say is that if this build gets nerfed before the ******** Sorc Madness/Lightning hybrids get nerfed, then it is time to jump ship because the Dev team clearly has some ****ed up priorities.

 

The Shieldtech tree needs a lot of work in general. I've been saying it since the game launched. Shield, as a mechanic to base a tree around, is very weak in this game and even weaker due to the 2 combat roll system.

 

--Every point of defense you have devalues your shield chance. As a Shieldtech this also devalues any talents which rely on Shielding.

 

--Every point of reduced accuracy on the attacker devalues your shielding. Which makes Oil Slick/Smoke Grenade even worse than they already are (although as a CP offtanking Oil Slick is still a really amazing cooldown as it adds more survivability to the tank in Operations).

 

--Defense allows you to avoid applied DoT effects, while Shielding does not. This is fairly uncommon in PvP (I think it only applies to Annihilation Marauders), but in PvE several attacks which apply very nasty DoT effects can be dodged entirely which avoids a significant amount of damage. If the attack is shielded you just mitigate X% of the up front damage and then the DoT ticks for a full, unshieldable amount afterwards.

 

--If, for whatever reason, you find yourself with an incredibly high defense chance (through reduced attacker accuracy or a load of defense for whatever reason), you are no longer able to take advantage of your Shield Vents or Flame Shield talents which significantly hampers both resource management and threat output.

 

--Fights like Soa hamper PT/Van tanks the most as our resource management and threat output rely on shielding. Since almost all of the damage done is unavoidable, we lose out on a significant portion of our talent tree. (To be fair, we have a higher base armor due to the Rebraced Armor talent and mitigate 2-3% more damage when avoidance is taken out of the equation, but all of a Jugg's "perks" rely on "taking damage" and not mitigating it).

 

 

In short: If nerfing this build is a priority over the PvP builds of other classes' or fixing some of the ******** in our trees then I will personally start a fundraiser to buy every employee at Bioware a plastic helmet. Wouldn't want the little buggers hurting themselves.

[Blurps]

Contrary to some claims here it is indeed the Shadow/Sin hybrid spec that is being nerfed into the ground, while "pure" specs received some boosts in this patch and one or two of the previous ones.

 

Could be unintentional of course, but I wouldn't bet a dime on it.

[Mapex]

On my earlier critique of Carolina Parakeet:

 

I was exaggerating about the simultaneous top damage and top protection; I was just saying that those values may be relatively high for a hybrid build. Also, it doesn't help that many people rave about being unkillable and still racking up massive kills and commendations with the spec (especially when coupled with a healer buddy).

 

The core issues revolve around tank ACs having to fight in close combat but not having the necessary survivability to do so if DPS-specced. We don't have the CC abilities, escape maneuvers, or heals that other classes get; all we get is maybe 5 to 10% more mitigation against damage types that only few ACs emphasize. This makes PvP a headache when compared to all the ranged classes who can obliterate us before we get anywhere close.

 

 

On the topic of Shadow/Assassin changes:

 

The Shadow/Assassin tweaks don't seem to be specifically nerfing hybrid builds, per se. The changes look geared to defining the DPS specs since currently tanks can benefit from some of the spec-defining DPS talents without any disadvantage: the tanks didn't require the DPS stance and/or could stance dance to get the best of both worlds.

 

The main thing they tried to kill was the ability to spam Double Strike/Thrash for cooldown refreshed, auto-crit, and half-Force-cost Projects/Shocks while in tank stance with a shield. It's a very powerful synergy for only needing to use two damage abilities.

 

 

On the topic of Carolina Parakeet, again:

 

The similarities to Carolina Parakeet are obvious. Carolina Parakeet gets to abuse a cooldown refreshing Rocket Punch that slows enemies to possibly refresh the cooldown of Rail Shot. Even if RP doesn't succeed, Flame Burst can refresh that Rail Shot anyway.

 

Some of the most fun or game-changing talents are available early into a tree, which is a blessing and a curse. This is great because during level up you want each and every talent point to amaze you and it would suck to have to wait until level 40 to see a playstyle change in your tree of choice. It's bad of course because at low levels you only have so many abilities to work with so these fun talents enable abusive synergies between two or three abilities.

 

This is actually kind of the reason why there's no engaging and powerful hybrid for ST/AP hybrid builds: the great AP talents are super high in the tree, which helps avoid abusive synergies but also means you go through the ordeal of a very boring leveling experience as pure AP until you get all the key tier 5 talents.

 

All of the above said, I have a very strong feeling that the Carolina Parakeet build won't last past the 1.2 patch. Again, it has nothing to do with breaking hybrid builds and everything to do with making sure you aren't double or triple dipping in talents that, when combined, can grossly overpower a single ability in your arsenal. Mercs/Commandos enough get beef for spamming one attack over and over again; I'd hate for that attention to be drawn to the Powertech as well (Flame Burst anyone?).

Edited February 7, 2012 by Mapex

[TirjacShiki]

The powertech is probably the only class where a full spec (Pyrotech) is far superior than a hybrid build.

 

If you think Carolina Parakeet needs to be nerfed, then you'd probably think a full Pyro spec should be wiped clean from the game.

[Jaysun]

crap like this is what is starting to make me MMO jaded..

 

this isn't a PVP game.. its a PVE game that has PVP..

 

now had the game been balanced around PVP/RVR what ever then I can say yes .. balance it around PvP.

 

in a game where most of the player base doesn't PVP, balancing classes around pvp will get lots of players to jump ship.

 

at this point I'm considering simply not renewing because I think this (and i said this in BETA) title will be F2P very soon.

 

I'll simply return when it is.

[sanctified]

crap like this is what is starting to make me MMO jaded..

 

this isn't a PVP game.. its a PVE game that has PVP..

 

now had the game been balanced around PVP/RVR what ever then I can say yes .. balance it around PvP.

 

in a game where most of the player base doesn't PVP, balancing classes around pvp will get lots of players to jump ship.

 

at this point I'm considering simply not renewing because I think this (and i said this in BETA) title will be F2P very soon.

 

I'll simply return when it is.

 

This guy has said it all. Except for the game going free to play. Just isn't happening, don't know why everyone's so obsessed with that.

 

Carolina Parakeet is fun for PVP, but I don't want to lose out on PVE (my main focus) just to balance PVP. But PVP always seems to take priority over everything else when it comes to classes.

[chainsawsamurai]

Mapex said:

 

Lots of stuff!

 

I feel a nerf for CP is in the pipeline, but it will be more of a consequence of nerfing the Pyro tree overall. I really feel we're more likely to see Pyro brought down to AP's level than the other way around, the most obvious target here is PPA because it is (aside from Wrath in Sorc Madness) one of the most powerful talents in the game.

 

I do agree with you about the Assassin "nerfs." The biggest change has to do with their ability to stance dance so easily.

 

Juggs lose all their rage, PTs require a 1.5s cast. So it seems like this is more about bringing Assassins stances in line with the other tanks; switching stances has more of a consequence during combat.

[Topherend]

1. First I understand that this is a PVE game with PvP in it.

2. Pure Pyrotech builds damage needs to stay untouched for pve reasons.

 

PPA moved higher into the PyroTech tree

Pros: only pure PyroTechs benefit from the talent

Cons: PyroTech becomes very boring during leveling process until higher in the tree

Chance of this happening: low (requires too much rearranging of talents)

 

I seen this happen in wow alot. Don't see why Bioware wouldn't do it. Unattach PPA from IM. Swap Rain of Fire and PPA on the Tree.

 

PPA and Superheated Rail require CGC

Pros: only CGC users (pure PyroTechs and some non-tank hybrid builds) benefit from the talents

Cons: skill tree tooltip bloat (tooltips become very bloated, making them harder to follow and comprehend)

Chance of this happening: moderate (though the skills become harder to maintain)

This seems to be more of what Bioware would do at least with PPA.

 

These two I think are the mostly likely the way bioware would approach this IF and ONLY IF they felt that this specific build was a bit too effective in pvp without nerfing Pure pyro builds dps into the ground.

[KingDukenstein]

I seen this happen in wow alot. Don't see why Bioware wouldn't do it. Unattach PPA from IM. Swap Rain of Fire and PPA on the Tree.

 

I totally agree, that seems like the proper fix if bioware indeed does feel the CP spec is overpowered.

[Sookster]

Same reason they're nerfing Sin hybrids in 1.1.2 - they don't want people to play hybrid specs. They want everyone to pick a tree and go 31+ points into it.

 

Problem is, for some classes, the 31 pt box isn't even worth it- like creeping terror. Right now the hybrid lightning/madness sorc and tele/balance sage is the most powerful, there are boxes that devs should move around.

[MactheSmuggler]

The CP build neither out DPS's a pure DPS specced build nor is more defensive than a pure tanking build... it just gives good balance between the two.

 

Z

 

This. If BW were to nerf anything about CP while leaving the Sorc hybrid unchanged then my $15 a month is walking out the door.

[Laertis]

Skill usually tops the Damage and Kills charts, not a specific spec. It just so happens that hybrid PT is a lot of fun to play for pvp players. I've been out done in terms of damage by good pure dps classes, and out protected by good tank classes. I do stay in the top 2 spots in WZ for several categories, but it's not the build that allows, but a lot of practice and watching the circumstances.

 

Just because a build is fun, effective and can be deadly against casual players, is no reason to nerf it. But they probably will, since casual players are the majority.

 

On that note, no reason to nerf Sorc Madness hybrids. They're all high and mighty on their ledges, but once you corner them their face gets smashed with a 2K crit rocket punch like all the rest. Just watch your positioning ;-).

[taugrimtaugrim]

When I go into a warzone with one healer, we can tank (and kill! important) an entire voidstar team

 

The two of you can take down 8 opponents?

 

That says wayyyyyyy more about your opponents than CP.

 

2v8 isn't supposed to work in this game, assuming comparable gear and skill.

Not even 2v4.

[Umpire]

The two of you can take down 8 opponents?

 

That says wayyyyyyy more about your opponents than CP.

 

2v8 isn't supposed to work in this game, assuming comparable gear and skill.

Not even 2v4.

 

All right, all right, 8 might be pushing it but in all seriousness 5 pugs cannot take down myself and my healer. If they're in vent or something and quick switch their chances go up. 2v4 with a tank and a healer vs 4 dps is SO doable. I'm not in battlemaster gear yet.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Umpire