Shouldnt there be a big difference in new 50s and BM 50s?

[JohraTon]

And in a month those noobs who decided that the game was no fun to play will have left.

 

In a month those "noobs" will have their own gear regardless of if they win or get roflstomped.

 

You get comm's and valor either way. If they spend a month in warzones, even if they never complete a daily or weekly quest, they'll still get plenty of bags and most likely enough gear to compete.

[Quantum]

Disparity in gear is the reason why it's an MMO. Take away the rewards from things and this post would be renamed "No reason to warzone, it doesn't advance my character at all".

 

 

You know they could make a game where your character ran around in his/her skivies kicking rats and it would be an MMO as long as it was Massively Multi-player and Online. No gear required. Gear does not an MMO make.

 

But aside that your argument here makes absolutely no sense. Once you hit lvl 50 and acquire Full Battlemaster gear, you are no longer advancing your character in any way other than valor, you've hit that plateau yet we don't see tons of people in full BM gear going "No reason to warzone, it doesn't advance my character at all".

 

What we are seeing is "The Gear Disparity is too great from fresh 50's to BM, there's no reason to war zone, as the frustration and time invested isn't worth the reward when I can just re-roll."

 

I think they have a point... The increase in stat/damage bonus from Cent gear to Champ gear is about 7.9% while the increase from Champ to BM is 2.9%. They may look like small numbers until they are applied, and we're not even counting Expertise bonus. Nor are we looking at the fact there have been folks in Full or near full BM gear as far back as within 2 weeks of Launch (6 weeks ago). With the current proposed changes, if you didn't get a single drop it would still take you much longer to build a set of Champ gear than they spent for BM (upwards of 6 weeks if you only managed half your dailies/weeklies 3 weeks if all are completed).

 

Every balancing patch has acted to attempt to slow down the act of gearing up, the last one targeted at introducing Brackets had a stealth nerf for sub 50's as the PvP Items vendors doubled prices, and once we hit 50 we didn't get the advantage of easy dailies/weeklies the pre-bracket 50's did when they could Group Q and roll under geared players.

 

A lot of the rage isn't about gear disparity, it's about how BW's attempts to "balance" things have only lead to increased disparity on the lower end. It's increased difficulty in acquiring Champ Bags coupled with the shoddy RNG system. The proposed changes coming only helps one of those issues, the RNG factor. The incessant grind annoyance is coupled by the fact that until you get a suit that is mostly Champ gear the increased effectiveness is perceived as minimal because the Gap disparity is all stacked on the Cent to Champ end.

[JohraTon]

but you are missing the other point, gear doesnt matter, it only matters to people who suck and want to use it as an excuse......obviously you are not as strong if you dont have the gear, but who cares....good players will still contribute to wins regardless of gear, positioning, kiting, stopping caps.....all these things can be done without gear.

 

just play the game, contribute in the best way possible and you will get the gear.....

 

 

Hit the nail right on the head.

 

Its objective based in warzones and while you get an advantage from gear, you can still contribute to the team without having it.

 

I wonder how many of these complaints come from the guys I see in every warzone who run around 1 v 1 against people and medal hunting while the other 7 of us play the objectives.

[CrunchyGremlin]

I know what character progression is. I said that SWTOR is an RPG and that's why it has what it has. This is their way of character progression. As in practically any computer RPG in existence.

 

the game is an RPG but simple progression does not make it so.

Im not against progression exactly...

In fact im all for gear progression if there is gear drop or destruction on death.

I am against gear progression with no RPG Content to progress for.

 

 

gear/character progression is not an RPG by itself.

 

Nothing or very very little in the PvP in this game is RPG or MMO in its literal sense.

Edited February 6, 2012 by CrunchyGremlin

[magra]

I just hit 50 a couple days ago on my Sith Sorcerer, and I get pretty demolished. I have no issue with that however, it's how it should be. Why should I be on terms with someone who has spent the time gearing up? I still help the team out, still have fun, still get my 7-9 medals a game.

 

It's a big switch from dominating the 10-49 bracket, but eventually I will get gear and be on par with everyone else.

[iceperson]

these people who are upset that their competition might have a chance would be great candidates for the spanish paralympic basketball team

 

[Brutem]

Hit the nail right on the head.

 

Its objective based in warzones and while you get an advantage from gear, you can still contribute to the team without having it.

 

I wonder how many of these complaints come from the guys I see in every warzone who run around 1 v 1 against people and medal hunting while the other 7 of us play the objectives.

 

I dont think anyone has stated it is impossible to win. You just have to rely on the other team to be just that bad. For example in a battle for Alderan, a group of lesser geared 50s beat a team of BM. The full Bm team zerged the middle, while we split into both sides and were able to get the cap before the zerg bm crew realized what was happening. The Bm geared team had only sent only 1 to each side, while 6 zerged the middle. Yes all 6 stayed there until the middle capped. After dispatching the 1 sent to each side, we got the cap on the L and R side. Soon after we were dominated at each point due to gear. However they were not able to cap due to as soon as the last player died, a fresh respawn would be landing to interrupt the cap. We won, died a ton, but we won. Had two back to back Battle for Alderans with pretty much the same group on our side just vs different BM geared Imps, who played exactly the same as the other group.

 

Now had the full BM geared teams been anywhere near competent, we would not have been able to cap two at the start. While it is possible for a lesser geared team to beat a Bm geared team, gear does make up too much of an advantage. Having gear currently still does not fix stupid in WZs it just allows them to faceroll people.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Brutem

[dwgagner]

So you want a more uneven playing field in which skill is less relevant?

 

Personally I don't want to be forced to go PVE to have the best gear for PvP.

 

People are making an issue where there is none.

 

As long as there is high end content raid gear new 50's who don't have it will get rolled in PvP.

 

Sorry to say but suck it the hell up and put your time in to get the gear sets and stop whining all over the place about "skill".

 

If gear didn't matter we wouldnt have any stats attached to them at all.

[DarthOvertone]

I couldn't disagree more and I've been PvPing since day 1. Player skill & teamwork should be the most important determining factor in PvP. Gear differences should be minimal. I'd personally prefer cooler looking sets for BM rather than "I win" stats.

 

Agreed. I'm not against gear rewards in PvP, however, the gear stats shouldn't create a gap that trumps skill-based play. That's why expertise is a mistake. Any stat increase on PvP gear should simply be a slight enhancement, if at all.

 

I don't see why the advantage should ever be more than 1% even on the top tier gear. Slight skill improvements for skills that are primarily PvP-based would be preferred. This would also help to establish a clear separation between PvE and PvP gear. A 5-15% across the board boost is just stupid.

 

The focus for the PvP Devs should be on creating combat environments and mechanics that encourage good fights. It shouldn't be so focused on "progression."

[dcgregorya]

PVP should be a skill progression, not a gear progression.

[Treplos]

PVP should be a skill progression, not a gear progression.

 

Care to explain what skill progression means?

[Horanax]

It has likely already been pointed out but if not here I go.

 

Quit asking for pvp gear to get nerfed cause it will not change a thing and you are still going to get rolled by someone in better gear, the only thing that will change is where that person got said gear. Right now PVP and PVE gear are nearly equivalent at the same level, so if PVP gear gets reduced PVE gear will now be better for PVP than PVP gear is. So those with time will just go do PVE content get top level gear and then go into warzones and kill those without it anyway. Nothing changes.

 

Yes I know mentioning WoW is taboo, but for anyone who was around back then think to vanilla WoW when there was no reason to PVP for gear since you could gear up through raiding. I know my guild used to roll a premade into battlegrounds and even against other premades we would just destroy them cause we were one of the few end game raiding guilds on our server.

 

This is what you are asking for here. At least with the current system they people that are beating you in top level gear got it by doing PVP and not something unrelated.

[cashogy]

PVP should be a skill progression, not a gear progression.

 

we have skill progression. its called leveling your toon to 50.

 

entering the 50s bracket as a fresh 50 is basically the same as entering the 10-49 bracket as a level 10. you really are just there to tag along, get your comms, and overall youre not going to contribute a whole lot to your team.

 

once bioware introduces the fixes to the champion bags, i think people will stop whining so much about gear disparity

Edited February 6, 2012 by cashogy

[Vegathegreat]

This thread is the perfect example of why PvP in MMO's is retarded.

 

If you think PvP is about gear, you're a noob. If you think MMO PvP should be about gear, don't bother telling anyone how PvE is easy mode and the real challenge is in PvP, because you've proven you don't care about challenge, you just want to roll newbies.

 

PvP should be based as much on skill as possible and as little on gear crutches as possible. Unfortunately, most people who claim to be PvP'ers are the gear crutch type. You know the kind, the ones who race to the end game and gear up before anyone else so they can destroy lower levels and people with inferior gear. These are the same people who whined when they made a 50 only bracket and we no longer able to farm the masses.

 

Hopefully Bioware doesn't cater to these people and decides that skilled competition is better than who can level and gear up the fastest.

 

of course it should be more about skill, but it should also be about gear and class and group makeup......the more variables you have then the more factors you have to calculate on the fly which further increases the gaps

 

good players dont need gear to win 1v1, but if having more gear allows them to venture into winning 1v2 and 1v3's then that variable can only be good for the game as it gives you more things to strive for.......

 

i mean who cares if better gear exists in the game, do what you gotta do to get it then it doesnt become a factor, why is this so hard for people to understand

Edited February 6, 2012 by Vegathegreat

[iceperson]

i mean who cares if better gear exists in the game, do what you gotta do to get it then it doesnt become a factor, why is this so hard for people to understand

 

standing afk in a warzone shouldn't make you unbeatable...

[Silcan]

I spend most of my time playing pvp,mainly because of time matters and the fact that i don't like being in a large guild and having to follow certain schedules to be able to raid for my gear i just don't have the time to sit at my desk for hours on end raiding.

 

Over time i probably spend the same amount of time in pvp but in smaller chunks.

Now as i pay the same amount of subs as everyone else and also spend the same amount of time doing what i like best i think that it fair that i have some sort of gear progression as everyone else.

 

So i ask is it fair and just for someone who only plays pve to be able to pop in a wz and mangle all the people like myself who enjoys the pvp side and like wise a pvp player to able to join a top end raid and top the charts even if he has never earned his gear in pve.

 

I think not so having pvp gear that reflects your dedication to that area is required to fend of the attacks of raiders joining pvp and making a mockery of the passion of someone else.

 

So fresh 50,s joining wz have to look at it the same way as if there facing higher bosses in pve raids that there progression will improve in time and effort and gear.

 

One thing i will say it would help if us pvp players did support new 50 more rather than leaving wz after checking there gear out and some of the real *** hats insulting them.

 

Yes i agree. Sound very good. The thing they could do is remove PVP gear and make the pvp gear the same as the PVE gear. same gear for both. Then they can tweak so u farm just as many coms for pvp 1 hour = 1 hour hardmodes for example.

[Bluetickone]

ok, so I have done umptiine million wzs and spent countless hours in Ilum farming valor and you basically want be to have gained no advantage from it? makes sense. I hear thats the system pokemon online is using too...

[Bobbyboosted]

rofl players are just bad. ive never pvped while leveling, when i hit level 50 i had some trouble, but when i hit valor level 10 and 2 piece of champion + some pve gears i topped dps and kills sometimes. its just bout the skills l2p

[Brutem]

Care to explain what skill progression means?

 

Learning counters, what and when to interrupt, knowing other classes (their abilities/skills), learning to kite/strafe better, when to AoE, when to CC, what strategy works in certain situations, when to pass the ball, How to Force leap/charge to intercept the ball, how to use terrain to los, know when to knockback and how to get the most out of it, etc...

 

Even though you see alot of players saying "i know it all when it comes to PvP", the reality is people seldom do. Gamers will constantly be looking for new ideas, new builds, new strategys, devs doing class/ability changes, etc. PvP will always continue to evolve and thus people will always be adapting and learning. This is what i consider skill progresion, and imo much more fun than simply relying on gear to be a players "skill".

[PibbyPib]

NO!

 

What most people want is a fair balanced fight where the most skilled combatant comes out on top.

 

So long as it's themselves. When it isn't, then the game is inherently unbalanced.

[iceperson]

ok, so I have done umptiine million wzs and spent countless hours in Ilum farming valor and you basically want be to have gained no advantage from it? makes sense. I hear thats the system pokemon online is using too...

 

yeah, so what if this guy wants to play on the girls team so he can beat people who never had a chance? not everyone wants things competitive!!!

[Selestian]

The more brackets we have, the lower our coms per hour. Wouldn't you rather lose three matches and win one match in an hour rather than have zero matches in an hour?

 

But that's not how it works out.

 

I played 10 matches last night and lost every one of them. It wasn't just a few points, it was a beat down crushing loss. Yeah some nights we get wins but it's obvious when the other team is the same pre-made of BMs crushing you you can easily see the problem.

 

It's no different than 50s beating bolstered 10s. Only now it's BMs versus folks with little to no expertise. I really don't get why they insisted on using the mechanic that has failed before.

 

Gear upgrades is fine, don't need a pvp specific stat.

[Keyran-Halcyon]

As part of this effort, specifically for PvP, we are also working on changes that will reduce the gear related power difference between new characters at level 50 and players in full PvP gear. We feel that at the current time, this difference is too high.

 

 

Been playing this game from release (5 days early) so I am almost valor 67 now. If someone started tomorrow and in 2 weeks made it to lvl 50 why should they have a CHANCE in hell against me besides maybe being a better player? I should be able to get huge crits and get hit for crap from him shouldnt I? He should need to work for his gear alittle bit IMO.

 

HOw much of a nerf are we talking when it comes to PVP gear. Should I just go to PVE full time? Is that gear going to be better for me now?

 

The same thing happed to Rift they nerfed PVP gear and how hard skills hit in PVP and the game died 3 weeks later.

 

I hope your taking a LONG look at this Bioware our on thin ICE.

 

 

Buff Juggs

 

If you really want to have a gear advantage because you have played longer, then just take your level 50 and pvp on Tatooine. You will totally kill everyone you come across. Then you will be awesome!!!!

 

For the rest of us PvP'ers, I think they'd agree. PvP is about killing someone because you played your class better and had more skill.

[Elkard]

The Gear Grind fest is what keeps, or not, people playing. Why should there be different gear for PVP and PVE? Expertise? Big woof. How about better rewards? Oh, yeah, that's the gear thing. On the one hand, people talk a lot about team work, but in practice it's about GodMode in order to "own" others. Sure there is a need to have something to work for--currently, outside Huttball, there is nothing. So, gear with expertise. A lot of people join guilds to get the gear, then leave--seen it too often (Ninja Raider video anyone). Seen any guild groups trying to squash the fields? No? Oh, one or two...sorry.

 

The way around the new 50s getting ganked is to go in as an organized group--yeah, organized group in an MMO what a concept--and gank them back. Team work effectively and even those epeeners will leave in fear crying they shouldn't get owned....

 

You know what might make Huttball really mean something--Rugby, football, Huttball what's the difference--is to have an ability to form "real" teams that play a season and then championships. Oh, yeah, that's kinda like arena, we don't have that. I would like to see it though. "The One" takes on "Sabres for Hire" in the first season playoffs...rewards galore--and not just valor and credits. Well, lots of credits, and valor, but more too.

 

Back on topic--the system should probably remain the same while incorporating more rewarding content for geared and non-geared (Oh yeah, geared [Varcity]; non-geared [reserve]. But that would involve making PvP a real dsedicated team effort. However, it would eliminate some of the issues with "balance"--I hate that idea. Skill should be more important than merely gear.

 

Patton: "They have stronger armor and more powerful guns, but we have numbers and the will to win on our side."

 

Tiger Tank Commander: "Man, he hacked! I'm in a Panther and that little Sherman owned me! It ain't fair! I want balance."

 

How do you beat a Tiger tank, blast it in the rear. How do you beat a geared 50 with non-geared 50--team work, and a lot of guts.

 

But nerfing is never the answer.

[CrunchyGremlin]

The Gear Grind fest is what keeps, or not, people playing. Why should there be different gear for PVP and PVE? Expertise? Big woof. How about better rewards? Oh, yeah, that's the gear thing. On the one hand, people talk a lot about team work, but in practice it's about GodMode in order to "own" others. Sure there is a need to have something to work for--currently, outside Huttball, there is nothing. So, gear with expertise. A lot of people join guilds to get the gear, then leave--seen it too often (Ninja Raider video anyone). Seen any guild groups trying to squash the fields? No? Oh, one or two...sorry.

 

The way around the new 50s getting ganked is to go in as an organized group--yeah, organized group in an MMO what a concept--and gank them back. Team work effectively and even those epeeners will leave in fear crying they shouldn't get owned....

 

You know what might make Huttball really mean something--Rugby, football, Huttball what's the difference--is to have an ability to form "real" teams that play a season and then championships. Oh, yeah, that's kinda like arena, we don't have that. I would like to see it though. "The One" takes on "Sabres for Hire" in the first season playoffs...rewards galore--and not just valor and credits. Well, lots of credits, and valor, but more too.

 

Back on topic--the system should probably remain the same while incorporating more rewarding content for geared and non-geared (Oh yeah, geared [Varcity]; non-geared [reserve]. But that would involve making PvP a real dsedicated team effort. However, it would eliminate some of the issues with "balance"--I hate that idea. Skill should be more important than merely gear.

 

Patton: "They have stronger armor and more powerful guns, but we have numbers and the will to win on our side."

 

Tiger Tank Commander: "Man, he hacked! I'm in a Panther and that little Sherman owned me! It ain't fair! I want balance."

 

How do you beat a Tiger tank, blast it in the rear. How do you beat a geared 50 with non-geared 50--team work, and a lot of guts.

 

But nerfing is never the answer.

 

Wrong and right.

Gear progression is the only PvP content worth anything in this game.

PvP Content progression is what keeps people in PvP

 

Patton didnt keep fighting because it was the only way he could get better tanks.

 

He was much more interested in beating the enemy generals plans and taking their territory then in better tanks.

In fact he and his co generals complained bitterly to HQ when the equipment they had was inadequate for the job.

Edited February 6, 2012 by CrunchyGremlin