Shouldnt there be a big difference in new 50s and BM 50s?

[Treplos]

Disparity in gear is the reason pvp in mmo's is so terrible.

 

You play an RTS, racing game, fighting game, FPS etc and a persons skill actually matters.

 

In mmo's it's all about who ever has the most epics. If BioWare intends to try and change that then I say good on them and it can't come sooner.

 

 

The problem is people ALREADY put a lot of time and effort to get top PVP gear and to even min/max it.

 

If Devs started with a system that was similar to GW for example, gear would not mean much to start with, not after the fact.

[muttlay]

I spend most of my time playing pvp,mainly because of time matters and the fact that i don't like being in a large guild and having to follow certain schedules to be able to raid for my gear i just don't have the time to sit at my desk for hours on end raiding.

 

Over time i probably spend the same amount of time in pvp but in smaller chunks.

Now as i pay the same amount of subs as everyone else and also spend the same amount of time doing what i like best i think that it fair that i have some sort of gear progression as everyone else.

 

So i ask is it fair and just for someone who only plays pve to be able to pop in a wz and mangle all the people like myself who enjoys the pvp side and like wise a pvp player to able to join a top end raid and top the charts even if he has never earned his gear in pve.

 

I think not so having pvp gear that reflects your dedication to that area is required to fend of the attacks of raiders joining pvp and making a mockery of the passion of someone else.

 

So fresh 50,s joining wz have to look at it the same way as if there facing higher bosses in pve raids that there progression will improve in time and effort and gear.

 

One thing i will say it would help if us pvp players did support new 50 more rather than leaving wz after checking there gear out and some of the real *** hats insulting them.

[Tetrablade]

Disparity in gear is the reason why it's an MMO. Take away the rewards from things and this post would be renamed "No reason to warzone, it doesn't advance my character at all".

 

I dunno, The Secret World isn't going to have gear stats or levels so apparently some people out there think you can have an mmo without the gear grind.

 

I spend most of my time playing pvp,mainly because of time matters and the fact that i don't like being in a large guild and having to follow certain schedules to be able to raid for my gear i just don't have the time to sit at my desk for hours on end raiding.

 

Over time i probably spend the same amount of time in pvp but in smaller chunks.

Now as i pay the same amount of subs as everyone else and also spend the same amount of time doing what i like best i think that it fair that i have some sort of gear progression as everyone else.

 

So i ask is it fair and just for someone who only plays pve to be able to pop in a wz and mangle all the people like myself who enjoys the pvp side and like wise a pvp player to able to join a top end raid and top the charts even if he has never earned his gear in pve.

 

I think not so having pvp gear that reflects your dedication to that area is required to fend of the attacks of raiders joining pvp and making a mockery of the passion of someone else.

 

So fresh 50,s joining wz have to look at it the same way as if there facing higher bosses in pve raids that there progression will improve in time and effort and gear.

 

One thing i will say it would help if us pvp players did support new 50 more rather than leaving wz after checking there gear out and some of the real *** hats insulting them.

 

You know I am so sick of this argument. I know a lot of people pvp and I LOVE to do it too, but how many ONLY pvp? If you look at most mmos the pvp portion is very small, this game too. So saying its some sacred area to protected when its not even half the game before you is kinda...brain-dead. PvP to me is open and instanced pvp. Before I hit 50, and many players have said this, I had fun. But at 50 I hit that same brick wall that I hit in every mmo when it comes to pvp and hit this arbitrary gear grind just to be able to be effective.

 

Right now if you got even a few pieces of pvp gear you can pretty much breeze Eternity Vault, full set and you are ready for Kragga's Palace. This is the TIER 1 gearset mind you. But in reverse I can't keep my teammates up, can't scratch the battlemasters, and basically feel pretty useless. I say reduce pvp to tier 2 pve stats. If people quite then we can tell them the same thing they have been telling all the 50s who are frustrated at the current setup.

 

*Ahem* WAHHH, WAHHH, WAHHH, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Tetrablade

[vrok-]

It's progression based because SWTOR is an MMORPG. It's about building your character to make him stronger in order to face greater challenges. The PvP progression is just an extension of that. It's not an MMOFPS, MOBA or random action game. If you don't like RPGs, why are you playing? Go play Quake. Or, you know, just wait until rated warzones.

 

Regardless, the whining about gear disparity is ridiculously exaggerated. It has taken me exactly one week since I hit 50 on my alt to gear up to 10.2% expertise. One freaking week.

Edited February 6, 2012 by vrok-

[Twor]

If you really think, that the PvP so far makes anyone in the 50s deserve much...

 

Ilum rockettrading (resulting in huge valor buffs), Ilum farming while bugged, low level roflstomping while the brackets wheren't seperated. SOrry, but the people who already have their t2/t3 (and yes I have a full champ as well.... and haven't played him in ages) can really not argue about anyone having it too easy.

 

Noone will ever have it as easy to aquire gear and high valor ranks as the first waves had it.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Twor

[Delavager]

In case it wasn't said 'cause i'm not reading through another 11 pages of people crying about the 50's bracket...

 

..dev's have said that gear is NOT being nerffed. No PvP gear is being nerffed. It's just more streamlined to get tier 1 and 2 pvp gear now.

[CrunchyGremlin]

It's progression based because SWTOR is an MMORPG. It's about building your character to make him stronger in order to face greater challenges. The PvP progression is just an extension of that. It's not an MMOFPS, MOBA or random action game. If you don't like RPGs, why are you playing? Go play Quake. Or, you know, just wait until rated warzones.

 

The PvP in this game is not MMO.

and No RPG's are not about gear progression.

 

RPG's are about story progression.

You are Role Playing.

When nothing connects the combats then there is no story and therefore no role to play in the story.

 

Gear just happens to be part of most MMORPG's but some more so than others. If you want gear progression with no story then you are looking for World Of tanks or counter strike with the warcraft mod.

 

For example relic capture and retake is a story.

Stories are told of this.

Edited February 6, 2012 by CrunchyGremlin

[vrok-]

The PvP in this game is not MMO.

and No RPG's are not about gear progression.

 

RPG's are about story progression.

You are Role Playing.

 

Gear just happens to be part of most MMORPG's but some more so than others. If you want gear progression with no story then you are looking for World Of tanks or counter strike with the warcraft mod.

 

The issue with the PvP in this RPG, and some others, is that there is no story.

1. PvP in this game is MMO. You're confused.

2. You're also confused about what RPGs are because your "definition" includes any game with a story like CoD, Starcraft, Monkey Island or whatever. Just because it has a story doesn't mean it's an RPG. Character progression is the important factor that separates them. That's why any game with solid character progression is described as having RPG elements.

Edited February 6, 2012 by vrok-

[JohraTon]

If you don't want to invest time in new gear, go play CoD, or BF3.

 

Oh wait, you have to do that there too. I think its the M98B on BF3 which gives you an advantage over every other sniper rifle since it has way less drop.

 

Every MMO has some sort of gear progression and all but the earliest players had to fight geared people to get it and its even in shooters these days.

 

I love how players are crying over "skill" in an MMO, you realise the numbers you hit people for a pretty random and it is often down to luck if you'll score a hit or a parry. If you want to fight people based only on skill go play CS.

 

Stop crying about BM gear, if you put the time in you'll get it. If you get it removed, Rakata becomes the new best (it is for some classes like Mara) and that is much harder to get than BM gear. All your going to end up doing is gimping yourself for much longer than you are now.

[CrunchyGremlin]

1. PvP in this game is MMO. You're confused.

2. You're also confused about what RPGs are because your "definition" includes any game with a story. Just because it has a story doesn't mean it's an RPG. Character progression is the important factor that separates them. That's why any game with solid character progression is described as having RPG elements.

 

Really how many 50 man battles have you seen.

Because 50 is small. You can get 64 in some PvP only games.

300 man battles is MMO. This doesnt have it.

But by definition you are right. Even if 300 people are playing different 64 man unconnected instances it can be considered an MMO but do you really think it is?

 

 

but this is an RPG. not a game with RPG elements.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game

 

 

"A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]"

Edited February 6, 2012 by CrunchyGremlin

[Brutem]

I should be able to get huge crits and get hit for crap from him shouldnt I?

 

With the original system, Gabe said was in place, no you shouldn't. However the original pvp system he mentioned at the FSS, was not implemented into the game and currently no public mention of it being put into the game. He also stated gear would only be a 10% advantage, not a 30-45% advantage that is in place now. (expertise is about 15% damage done, 15% damage reduction and 15% healing)

 

 

 

So you want a more uneven playing field in which skill is less relevant?

 

Thats the issue, alot of people are only as good as their gear, and want it to be the only factor. There are several posts out there stating in pvp, you only have gear if you are skilled, which i find funny because alot of those same people say gear should be the major factor in PvP, so in turn their only skill is outgearing others.

[Turando]

Been playing this game from release (5 days early) so I am almost valor 67 now. If someone started tomorrow and in 2 weeks made it to lvl 50 why should they have a CHANCE in hell against me besides maybe being a better player?

 

I think you just made their point. They are saying skill is not playing enough of a factor, that gear buries the difference in skill. So, skillful new 50s get slaughtered by mediocre BMs.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Turando

[Master-Nala]

Disparity in gear is the reason pvp in mmo's is so terrible.

 

You play an RTS, racing game, fighting game, FPS etc and a persons skill actually matters.

 

In mmo's it's all about who ever has the most epics. If BioWare intends to try and change that then I say good on them and it can't come sooner.

 

This exactly.

 

If gear wasn't the point, you wouldn't see so much exploiting either.

[Vewdo]

No! No separate queue for battle masters please!

 

 

I used to warzone at level 1 and was delighted at it. Then they said my level was too weak and made it level 10.

 

Launch came and I could warzone with all my guild-mates of any level (above 10) and all was good. The warzone queues were quite short. Then they said anyone below level 49 was too weak and they cut them off, resulting in long ques on my 50.

 

So I'm in a warzone que right now, it's been 10, 20 minutes. This is how it is at 50 now, you know. It's not like the 1 to 49 queue which still has people at this time. Gives me time to check out the forums while I sit here, I guess. But you want to cut the battlemasters, the hardest-core PVPers, the only pvpers I see into their own braket and make the pool of people to play with even smaller?

 

 

The more brackets we have, the lower our coms per hour. Wouldn't you rather lose three matches and win one match in an hour rather than have zero matches in an hour?

 

 

Ive seen a lot of complaints like this recently. I dont know what its like on other server with queue time but i have zero issues. The longest i wait for any queue no matter what time of day it is, is about 5 minutes or less. Never have a problem. I play on The Fat Man server. Maybe they need to institute some server merges then, if queue times are as long as people are saying.

[Torleen]

If someone started tomorrow and in 2 weeks made it to lvl 50 why should they have a CHANCE in hell against me besides maybe being a better player? I should be able to get huge crits and get hit for crap from him shouldnt I? He should need to work for his gear alittle bit IMO.

 

If someone only started 2 weeks ago and is crushing you, you are in fact a bad player.

 

Demanding that you auto-win with gear is LAME.

 

There is this thing we call practice that you should of gotten in your months of PVPing longer then the person just starting that should be making it difficult for them to beat you.

[kirorx]

If someone only started 2 weeks ago and is crushing you, you are in fact a bad player.

 

Demanding that you auto-win with gear is LAME.

 

There is this thing we call practice that you should of gotten in your months of PVPing longer then the person just starting that should be making it difficult for them to beat you.

 

/this. THIS IS THE CORRECT RESPONSE.

[Gwal]

The OP of this thread is being short sited.

 

Ok so it's fun you can pwn noobs now. And in a month those noobs who decided that the game was no fun to play will have left. Then more noobs will come along and decide the same and in 6 months when the casual majority have left the game for other things you'll be left with Hard Core SW fans that don't care for or take part in PvP and the same guys you are playing with/against now minus the noobs. Noobs will soon start to hear about how unfriendly/ gear dependant this game is and simply will not buy or try it.

 

Next server merges will occur as the majority of casual players leave in droves, you'll be thrown in with a bunch of people with the same stats and experience as you have and you'll play a game that no longer has funding for development.

 

Sorry mate but the hardcore MMO player does not make up the majority of the games revenue, the casual does.

 

I'm quite hardcore myself but this is something you must try and understand.

 

MMO's are about people not gear.

 

I have to spell this out because a lot of people keep stating "MMO's are all about gear progression". No! They are not! they are about playing with other people and joining in a community with a common interest for fun and entertainment. If you think "MMO's are about gear" You probably have a psychological addiction and purple items are your crack cocaine. Don't take that as an attack, I have been addicted to drugs, it creeps up on you sometimes and can make you treat people in a manner that you never would with a clear head.

 

MMO's are about people not gear.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Gwal

[vrok-]

Really how many 50 man battles have you seen.

Because 50 is small. You can get 64 in some PvP only games.

300 man battles is MMO. This doesnt have it.

But by definition you are right. Even if 300 people are playing different 64 man unconnected instances it can be considered an MMO but do you really think it is?

 

 

but this is an RPG. not a game with RPG elements.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game

 

 

"A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]"

XvX battles is a graphics engine limitation and is a completely separate issue. You could have them if the graphics engine was up to it. Hell, go ahead and schedule a 150vs150 or whatever the max is on Tatooine if you wish.

 

Even though you dug up the definition for pen n paper RPGs and not computer RPGs, it even says character development in the definition. Read more.

[Anishor]

What about titles, recognition? The joy of beating your opponents? Why is gear the reason people fight players, and not monsters?

 

People forget that MMO players use to pvp because they enjoyed pvp. Ala SWG from pretty much its birth until its death in December.

 

I plan on still plan on doing both Illum and WZs when I finish my char's gear. PVP is fun, if they reduce the gear gap I'll be pleased.

 

I lol at ppl that say go play BF3 ( because I do play it) but they're different games, it's like telling someone who is complaining about a RTS to go play an FPS.

 

Gear gaps in PVP is stupid, it breaks class roles ( because you end up getting ppl that can't be killed ) and it removes too much player skill from the equation.

[Torleen]

/this. THIS IS THE CORRECT RESPONSE.

 

Thanks for the support.

 

Somewhere along the way the "entitlement" generation somehow managed to sway people's perception of PVP to mean that demanding gear disparity made someone "good" and that grinding for the gear in question made someone "good".

 

People seemed to forget that practice and skill are actually how someone gets "better" at a given task.

 

If you are facing a 5th degree black belt and you are a couch potato with a gun you can't exactly brag about being a "good fighter" when you win.

 

And anyone who wants that advantage or rather "needs" that advantage needs to stop acting like they are the "elite". As that is a joke.

[Anishor]

 

MMO's are about people not gear.

 

 

Truth in its most glorious form

[Vegathegreat]

Imo when PVP started being about who has the better gear, is when it started going downhill. PVP should be about player skill, and their ability to use their classes powers at the right time. Not who has the bigger stick. Until that's corrected - pvp will be a joke. It doesn't matter if BM's have an advantage or not, because the only reason to PVP in games like this - is the gear. Anyone who worries about the gear being the reason they pvp? Or how much of a gap it gives them? Is pvping for the wrong reason.

 

There's a game out there that's coming out soon that's trying to erase this whole PvP for gear to get gear to pvp nonsense. Check it out, it's called GW2.

 

but you are missing the other point, gear doesnt matter, it only matters to people who suck and want to use it as an excuse......obviously you are not as strong if you dont have the gear, but who cares....good players will still contribute to wins regardless of gear, positioning, kiting, stopping caps.....all these things can be done without gear.

 

just play the game, contribute in the best way possible and you will get the gear.....

 

my alt commando just hit 50, has no gear and i still drop over 300k damage and 100k heals, yes i die more, yes it is tougher, but no im not useless, i stop bomb plants, peel for healers, aoe, focus fire, heal even though im dps..........all these things contribute to a win, i will probably be full champion in 4-8 weeks, thats like no time at all and then ill be even more of a factor......

 

my main is a BM, drops over 500k with 60+ kills (jedi sentinel) yes there is a diffrence but its no game breaking, it exists to allow bad players to actually win......you think i care when my no gear commando runs into a battle master 1v1? i mop the floor with em, why? cuz the even those the variables are diffrent, onething remains the same....KNOWLEDGE of other classes/player tendancies....i know what they are gonna do before they do it and ive already set the sequence for my victory in motion, its that simple

[CrunchyGremlin]

XvX battles is a graphics engine limitation and is a completely separate issue. You could have them if the graphics engine was up to it. Hell, go ahead and schedule a 150vs150 or whatever the max is on Tatooine if you wish.

 

Even though you dug up the definition for pen n paper RPGs and not computer RPGs, it even says character development in the definition. Read more.

 

 

Whatever on the graphics issue. I have been there.

 

Are you so sure you can have 150v 150 on tatooine?

I suspect you cant as it will be broken into instances but we will never know as there is no RPG based around it nor are we forced to do it.

 

 

You didnt read enough to understand what Character progression means nor to understand that it is just part of what an RPG can be not what an RPG is.

Edited February 6, 2012 by CrunchyGremlin

[vrok-]

Whatever on the graphics issue. I have been there.

 

Are you so sure you can have 150v 150 on tatooine?

I suspect you cant as it will be broken into instances but we will never know as there is no RPG based around it nor are we forced to do it.

 

 

You didnt read enough to understand what Character progression means nor to understand that it is just part of what an RPG can be not what an RPG is.

I know what character progression is. I said that SWTOR is an RPG and that's why it has what it has. This is their way of character progression. As in practically any computer RPG in existence.

[wtfnonamefree]

Start playing Quake again guys (I never stopped), true PVP to be honest.. no MMORPG can come close to this kind of fighting

 

QFT

 

Over a decade of perfectly balnced and skillbased PvP fun.