Why is one of the Consular Shadow damage abilities not usable on players?

[Nangasaur]

Tumult.

 

Any explanation? The tooltip says nothing about it being not usable on players. It does nothing special, just damage to a target that is stunned or incapacitated.

 

"Kicks the target, dealing 1950-1982 kinetic damage to weak and standard targets, and 1416-1447 kinetic damage to strong targets. Only usable on incapacitated targets."

 

I've never once seen it usable after I stun a player, mez a player, etc. It's always blacked out, and when I've tried to use it, Invalid Target or Conditions Not Met.

 

:/

Edited February 5, 2012 by Nangasaur

[Ryotknife]

Tumult.

 

Any explanation? The tooltip says nothing about it being not usable on players. It does nothing special, just damage to a target that is stunned or incapacitated.

 

"Kicks the target, dealing 1950-1982 kinetic damage to weak and standard targets, and 1416-1447 kinetic damage to strong targets. Only usable on incapacitated targets."

 

pts/vanguard have an ability like that too

 

just think of it as one less keybind for pvp.

[DrekorSilverfang]

Tumult.

 

Any explanation? The tooltip says nothing about it being not usable on players. It does nothing special, just damage to a target that is stunned or incapacitated.

 

"Kicks the target, dealing 1950-1982 kinetic damage to weak and standard targets, and 1416-1447 kinetic damage to strong targets. Only usable on incapacitated targets."

 

I've never once seen it usable after I stun a player, mez a player, etc. It's always blacked out, and when I've tried to use it, Invalid Target or Conditions Not Met.

 

:/

 

Players are Players.

 

Weak/Standard targets are starless mobs.

Strong targets are silver star mobs

Elite are gold star mobs

Champion/Boss are gold/white star mobs

 

The ability specifically states what it usable on and players is not on that list.

Edited February 5, 2012 by DrekorSilverfang

[Dekai]

Same reason Shoulder Slam for Powertechs does nothing in PvP. Same reason every other class has one, it's a PvE only ability. Same line as having a companion only ability that restores minor health for you and them.

 

It's meant as a trash clearing ability in 4 mans, that no one uses.

[ViperI]

Actually the tooltip explains exactly what you're asking. It specifies "weak," "standard" and "strong" mobs. Players are not considered to be any of those categories. It also doesn't work on elite, champion or boss mobs. As a guardian, I have 2 such abilities.

 

It's a tool for killing low-end mobs faster, nothing more.

[Nangasaur]

But it's a really good, strong damage ability with a long cooldown, and only usable in certain situations. I have MANY other abilities that say the exact same nonsense about weak, normal, strong, etc targets, but nothing about players, and am able to spam those on players all day long.

 

Again...logically speaking, what is the reason other than, "Just because...?"

[Nangasaur]

Actually the tooltip explains exactly what you're asking. It specifies "weak," "standard" and "strong" mobs. Players are not considered to be any of those categories. It also doesn't work on elite, champion or boss mobs. As a guardian, I have 2 such abilities.

 

It's a tool for killing low-end mobs faster, nothing more.

See my post below yours. There is no exclusion in the tooltip about it NOT being usable on players, much like all my other abilities that describe their effects on weak, normal, strong targets, nothing about players, yet those are usable on players.

 

Edit: And to further clarify my point, other abilities I have that specifically exclude certain target types clearly say so in the tooltip:

 

"Mind Maze: Confuses the target, leaving it bewildered and unable to act for 60 seconds. Damage will break the effect prematurely. This ability is only usable in stealth mode and cannot be used against a target in combat. Only one target can be incapacitated at any given time. Cannot be used on droids."

 

Cannot be used on droids. Check. An ability that clearly states a target type that it cannot be used on.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Nangasaur

[Trivialed]

Because giving sorcerers another ability that can hit for 2-4k is just unnecessary. However all classes get something similar to this. It makes pve easier but is unbalanced in pvp.

[DrekorSilverfang]

But it's a really good, strong damage ability with a long cooldown, and only usable in certain situations. I have MANY other abilities that say the exact same nonsense about weak, normal, strong, etc targets, but nothing about players, and am able to spam those on players all day long.

 

Again...logically speaking, what is the reason other than, "Just because...?"

 

What other abilities do you have that specify they only do their effect to weak, normal strong? I'm willing to bit the ability has a "main" effect and a side effect that only affects those types(and that side effect does nothing in pvp).

[Nangasaur]

What other abilities do you have that specify they only do their effect to weak, normal strong? I'm willing to bit the ability has a "main" effect and a side effect that only affects those types(and that side effect does nothing in pvp).

See above. Just one of my abilities that clearly states a target type that it cannot be used on.

[Nangasaur]

Because giving sorcerers another ability that can hit for 2-4k is just unnecessary. However all classes get something similar to this. It makes pve easier but is unbalanced in pvp.

Consular Shadows aren't Sorcerers, but thanks for the addition. You might be thinking about the Sorc counterpart, Sages.

[Gelich]

But it's a really good, strong damage ability with a long cooldown, and only usable in certain situations. I have MANY other abilities that say the exact same nonsense about weak, normal, strong, etc targets, but nothing about players, and am able to spam those on players all day long.

 

Again...logically speaking, what is the reason other than, "Just because...?"

 

I'm pretty sure those other abilities have some secondary effect that works on normal mobs, but not on playes, not the ability itself.

 

As for the reason...

 

it's a really good, strong damage ability

 

It would give more burst damage than the PvP is balanced around.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Gelich

[Nangasaur]

It would give more burst damage than the PvP is balanced around.

...on a long cooldown, relatively speaking.

 

But again, my point is, is it an oversight not to exclude player targets from the tooltip standpoint, as my other abilities that do exclude certain targets have the tooltips correct?

[Xaearth]

...on a long cooldown, relatively speaking.

 

But again, my point is, is it an oversight not to exclude player targets from the tooltip standpoint, as my other abilities that do exclude certain targets have the tooltips correct?

 

If there's any oversight, it would be the fact that it gives an error message instead of playing the animation, triggering a GCD, and dealing 0 damage.

 

The tooltip specifically states that you kick the target, dealing x range of damage to weak/standard and y range of damage to strong.

 

So for any other enemy, the ability is just for kicks.

[Nangasaur]

To counter the arguments of those saying it's too much burst damage:

 

"Shadow Strike: 1483-1769 weapon damage to a single target. Only usable from behind the target. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber."

 

No cooldown. Can be spammed on players all day long. More damage than tumult on average (I'm not Infiltration spec, which increases those damage numbers even more).

 

So for Tumult...oversight in the tooltip? Oversight in general?

Edited February 5, 2012 by Nangasaur

[Diomades]

If I remember correctly, a Dev commented a while back that those abilities were added to mix things up and add flavor to PvE combat.

[golfwang]

To counter the arguments of those saying it's too much burst damage:

 

"Shadow Strike: 1483-1769 weapon damage to a single target. Only usable from behind the target. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber."

 

No cooldown. Can be spammed on players all day long. More damage than tumult on average (I'm not Infiltration spec, which increases those damage numbers even more).

 

So for Tumult...oversight in the tooltip? Oversight in general?

 

Shadow Strike costs half your focus bar w/o proc. Good luck spamming it on players all day long.

 

Tumult can't be used on players because the sin/shadow pvp skillset was not designed with it in mind. Why? Ask a developer.

 

Mind Trap is different because it's crowd control.

[Draqus]

Every class must have an ability like this.

 

Think thats bad? Juggernauts (and probably jedi equivalent) have TWO abilitys like this that cannot be used on players. One is for slowed/snared targets, think its called savage kick, and the other is pommel strike which the tooltip reads exactly like the topic poster's move.

[Diomades]

Every class must have an ability like this.

 

Think thats bad? Juggernauts (and probably jedi equivalent) have TWO abilitys like this that cannot be used on players. One is for slowed/snared targets, think its called savage kick, and the other is pommel strike which the tooltip reads exactly like the topic poster's move.

 

I'm pretty sure Pommel Strike works in PvP, I've heard guildies talking about killing people with it.

[Malice_Nihilim]

Tumult.

 

Any explanation? The tooltip says nothing about it being not usable on players. It does nothing special, just damage to a target that is stunned or incapacitated.

 

"Kicks the target, dealing 1950-1982 kinetic damage to weak and standard targets, and 1416-1447 kinetic damage to strong targets. Only usable on incapacitated targets."

 

I've never once seen it usable after I stun a player, mez a player, etc. It's always blacked out, and when I've tried to use it, Invalid Target or Conditions Not Met.

 

:/

 

All classes get one. Its designed to give end game players a high, nearly 1 shot attack against normal mobs.

[Nangasaur]

The tooltip is spot on.

 

Your example with the sap not working on droids has nothing to do with it (hint: droid isn't an enemy tier, but a mob type).

Hint: Players aren't an enemy tier, but a mob type. Here's how you know: Can you mez Hero mobs? No. Can you mez players? Yes. Hence, players are mob types, not tiers.

 

There are plenty of tooltips for abilities that say whether or not their effects are applied to players, and/or what effects are different when the mob type is a player. The ability I'm describing lacks this description.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Vastalee
removed mention of flagging

[Nangasaur]

All classes get one. Its designed to give end game players a high, nearly 1 shot attack against normal mobs.

As described in a previously reply, this ability is far from a Shadow's strongest attack. We have another ability that is spammable (no cooldown), which does more damage, with far less restriction on when it can be used.

[Nangasaur]

Shadow Strike costs half your focus bar w/o proc. Good luck spamming it on players all day long.

 

Tumult can't be used on players because the sin/shadow pvp skillset was not designed with it in mind. Why? Ask a developer.

 

Mind Trap is different because it's crowd control.

The force cost would be about the only valid explanation, since shadow strike costs 40 force with the talent spec to restore 10 force when shadow technique does damage (and is spammable if you're spec'd right), and Tumult has no force cost. But I would rather it cost force, have the huge restriction on when and how often it can be used, than have an ability which is useless in PvP. Edited February 5, 2012 by Nangasaur

[Husanak]

Working as intended.

 

Back in beta there was a handful of classes that where painful to level. At points in the game Mob difficulty scaled faster then some classes where able to keep up with.

 

The devs made lots of changes too the order in which skills and some of their upgrades where given to some of the classes.... in order to make the pve progression seem more fluid.

 

One of the solutions was to add the saber handle stick and the spin kick. They did not want to add more skill to upset the pvp balance they feel they had already achieved on a mechanical level so they made them PvE only skills.... they also didn't want them ruining the balance they had designed in Flashpoints and Raids.... So you will notice they also do not work vs elite or higher NPCS.

 

They are away too make regular leveling mobs easier too kill... and yes for a couple of the weaker Solo PvE classes they are a nice boost too dmg if you work them into your rotation. Like most people have said though come end game most people stop using them when all there skills and gear are caught up.

[Nangasaur]

Working as intended.

 

Back in beta there was a handful of classes that where painful to level. At points in the game Mob difficulty scaled faster then some classes where able to keep up with.

 

The devs made lots of changes too the order in which skills and some of their upgrades where given to some of the classes.... in order to make the pve progression seem more fluid.

 

One of the solutions was to add the saber handle stick and the spin kick. They did not want to add more skill to upset the pvp balance they feel they had already achieved on a mechanical level so they made them PvE only skills.... they also didn't want them ruining the balance they had designed in Flashpoints and Raids.... So you will notice they also do not work vs elite or higher NPCS.

 

They are away too make regular leveling mobs easier too kill... and yes for a couple of the weaker Solo PvE classes they are a nice boost too dmg if you work them into your rotation. Like most people have said though come end game most people stop using them when all there skills and gear are caught up.

Well, Shadows are definitely NOT a class that struggles while leveling. Probably one of the easiest, if not the easiest.