The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

[silvercgull]

WOW !!!!!!!!!!

 

 

YOUR POST IS ALL SORC BUT YOU SAID SAGES IN THIS MIX??

 

 

TY, FOR BRINGING BIASED OPINIONS WHICH DIMINISH YOUR CREDIBILITY.

 

 

Had to be noted.

[silvercgull]

Sorcs/Sages are just so overpowered it is ridic. I hate it when I'm in my pre cent pvp gear and I enter a WZ and I can't take down a full BM geared Sorc/Sage. It is just insane that they can kill me, but I can't kill them. They are so op it's a disgrace to the game. Compound the fact they get so much CC + the ridic damage output they do. Every WZ I'm in they top damage chart. They are doing 300k+ while talking on the phone, its just ridic. Omg it's insane when I see full BM geared Sorc/Sage land a 3k hit on my 0 exp. geared char. Omg omg omg ridic, op op op. /sarcasm.

 

 

 

OMGAAAAAAAWD, So RIDIC YO, WHILE DIALIN THE DIGITS AROUND THE WAY @ DA CRIB.

 

Play a sniper homie, or get wit da program.

Edited February 13, 2012 by silvercgull

[Zlashie]

Good analysis OP. Very good. I hope the Bioware Devs dont ignore this one.

 

Warning tho: Its impossible to bring logic and analysis to the gaming forums. First off, the majority of the SWTOR community are Sorcs so they will automaticly flame you for even mentioning their class.

 

Secondly, you will probably spend most of your time defending your post from people who have no clue what you are talking about and think this thread is another "Lol I got ownd by a sorc, they should be nerfed" thread, when infact your thread is a clear analysis of the basis behind hybrid speccs.

[JackWolfskin]

Good analysis OP. Very good. I hope the Bioware Devs dont ignore this one.

 

Warning tho: Its impossible to bring logic and analysis to the gaming forums. First off, the majority of the SWTOR community are Sorcs so they will automaticly flame you for even mentioning their class.

 

Secondly, you will probably spend most of your time defending your post from people who have no clue what you are talking about and think this thread is another "Lol I got ownd by a sorc, they should be nerfed" thread, when infact your thread is a clear analysis of the basis behind hybrid speccs.

 

QFT. I struggled to read the first few pages after OP's well thought post. Shame really.

[Lormif]

Good analysis OP. Very good. I hope the Bioware Devs dont ignore this one.

 

Warning tho: Its impossible to bring logic and analysis to the gaming forums. First off, the majority of the SWTOR community are Sorcs so they will automaticly flame you for even mentioning their class.

 

Secondly, you will probably spend most of your time defending your post from people who have no clue what you are talking about and think this thread is another "Lol I got ownd by a sorc, they should be nerfed" thread, when infact your thread is a clear analysis of the basis behind hybrid speccs.

 

 

You mention how impossible it is to bring logic because of other people, then use a logical fallacy to support your submission, well done.

[Tumri]

Good analysis OP. Very good. I hope the Bioware Devs dont ignore this one.

 

Warning tho: Its impossible to bring logic and analysis to the gaming forums. First off, the majority of the SWTOR community are Sorcs so they will automaticly flame you for even mentioning their class.

 

Secondly, you will probably spend most of your time defending your post from people who have no clue what you are talking about and think this thread is another "Lol I got ownd by a sorc, they should be nerfed" thread, when infact your thread is a clear analysis of the basis behind hybrid speccs.

 

Thank you. The most annoying posts are the ones that came from people that literally did not read a word I said and just posted paragraphs upon paragraphs of nonsense after reading the title. I had thought that leaving red text at the top asking for people to read would help; it didn't.

[Orangerascal]

The real reason sorcs are op, is because their are so many of them. There is a higher chance you'll be killed by them and more people will whine about them.

 

If you mix the sorcs skillset with the of the merc, this forum still be full of nerf sorc threads.

[Lormif]

Thank you. The most annoying posts are the ones that came from people that literally did not read a word I said and just posted paragraphs upon paragraphs of nonsense after reading the title. I had thought that leaving red text at the top asking for people to read would help; it didn't.

 

Well I read it, and I cant speak for sorcs, but I can tell you I have no abilities as a sage that can hit for more then 3k-3200, so I am not sure where you get the 5k hits. I am not sure where or how you get 6.5k bubbles... Most of the utility you mention other classes can out do, or counter.,....

[RSQViper]

This thread is making me chuckle.

 

A geared sorc is a good class to play. It's not hard to play if you're madness tree either. But here's the thing. 1 v 1 a sorc does not perform well. Generally stuck in place for any really powerful attacks once someone is on you it's trouble.

 

I think it's funny a marauder posted this. Those guys murder Sorcs. I mean, a sorc has no chance vs a geared Marauder at all, ever. Even someone who sucks at playing Marauder can take out a squishy Sorc.

 

What a joke this thread is.

 

The only 2 major things that really need to happen in class balancing is a slight increase to survivability for DPS spec'd Knights/Warriors and something to reduce Operatives in PvP. Possibly a reduction in survivability in Marauders but the jury is out on that one.

 

That's really it. Sorc's are fine.

[Kalantris]

Good analysis OP. Very good. I hope the Bioware Devs dont ignore this one.

 

Warning tho: Its impossible to bring logic and analysis to the gaming forums. First off, the majority of the SWTOR community are Sorcs so they will automaticly flame you for even mentioning their class.

 

Secondly, you will probably spend most of your time defending your post from people who have no clue what you are talking about and think this thread is another "Lol I got ownd by a sorc, they should be nerfed" thread, when infact your thread is a clear analysis of the basis behind hybrid speccs.

 

Just to prove you're wrong I'm going to apply the logic you mentioned to the OP's post. Logic and comparison. The whole thread was created around the enormous amount of CC sages/sorcerers have at their disposal, which is utter ******** and I'm going to prove it.

 

1. 4 second 30yrd range stun with a 60s CD. [Electrocute]

 

2. A 30 yard range 6s 50% slow with a 12 second cooldown. [Force Slow]

 

3. A slow build into their main filler attack. [Force Lightning]

 

5. A 20(30 untalented) second cooldown 150% speed boost that is the best of it's kind. [Force Sprint]

 

6. A 20 second CD(shortest in the game) knockback. [Overload]

 

7. A 5 second root attached to the above knockback.

 

8. A bubble that provides between 3.5-6.5k absorption. Since average health pools are on average about 16k this can be looked at as an instant 20%-40% health gain on a 20 second cooldown. They have light armor but this skill makes them far tankier than most DPS specced players in any situation where the players aren't receiving external heals for extended periods of time and even then it's pretty much outright better than heavy armor. [static Barrier]

 

9. The above bubble has a 3 second AoE immobilize attached to it. This can be Pre-Cast and kept up 100% of the time as a preventive CC that activates when you need it(when your bubble breaks). This can also be pre-cast and Static Barrier can be clicked off manually for a 3 second on-demand AoE immobilize and then the Sorcerer may immediately recast it if timed well.

 

10. A 60s CD single target immobilize(whirlwind/force lift). [Whirlwind]

 

11. A 2s duration stun if the above immobilize is broken by damage.

 

12. A 12 second CD 30 yard range interrupt. [Jolt]

 

-----------------------------------

 

13. A 30 yard friendly pull which provides an incredible amount of potential for tactical PvP plays and can save allies from the most dire of situations. [Extrication]

 

14. Self-Healing(Dark Infusion/Dark Heal while target(s) CC'd or not in LoS).

 

15. An AoE damage ability with no target cap and a 30% AoE slow to all enemies in area. [Force Storm]

 

16. A 30 yard range 4.5 second cooldown Cleanse ability that renders many DoTs and debuffs useless. [Purge]

 

------------------------------------

 

Burst:

 

There is also the constant whining that "Sorcerers have no Burst". A Wrath Proc Chain Lightning can do up to 5k damage with just a relic popped. This can be followed up by Death Field and Shock for almost 10k damage in 3 GCDs. This is more burst damage(not to mention it's AoE) than most non-gimmick specced classes can output.

 

What I'm trying to emphasize is how stupidly well the bottom halves of the two trees synergize. It's obviously not intended and needs to be changed without breaking the full 31 point specs. Bioware needs to move the incredibly good talents further up the tree and move some of the weaker talents down to the lower tiers.

 

 

1. Completely correct. Failed to mention it charges 3/4 of a resolve bar, so any other CC (including our famous knockback) will charge the resolve bar to full rendering all of sage's debuffs useless.

 

2. Every single class in the game has a slowing ability and above that most of the classes have some sort of gap closers, some even more than one. Also some have passive movement increase abilities (like a combat spec sentinel), that guarantee melee range against any opponent, as sage's slow is identical to the sentinel's one.

 

3. The slow from telekinetic throw only works as long as a sage channels the spell, so it's a 50% slow with a self root. It does somewhat help to keep the enemy away for a few seconds, but eventually the gap will be closed and it's going to happen sooner than later. It's also interruptable and it's easy to interrupt, because the channel lasts 3 seconds.

 

5. Force sprint is awesome, I agree.

 

6. The author failed to mention, that sage's knockback doesn't only have the shortest cooldown, but also the shortest range. It knocks people back around 3-4 meters, which, compared to a 20 meter knockbacks from commandos or gunslingers, is nothing. It's not enough to push a marauder far enough to be out of master strike range assuming he was in melee range.

 

7. The author yet again failed to mention, that the root breaks on any damage. It only lasts 5 seconds if the sage leaves you alone. Otherwise it breaks immediately.

 

8. The bubble absorption is nowhere near 6,5k. It's not enough to absorb a single tick from the fire traps on Huttball, so it's somewhere around 2,5k to 3,2k. Furthermore this skill doesn't make sages tankier in any way, because any DPS is able to cut through with a single skill, because sages have light armor. Try comparing it to a commando's shield, which effectively cuts my damage in half for it's entire duration. It's also on a 20s lockout.

 

9. The author yet again failed to mention the 3s CC breaks on any damage instantly. Now that's becoming a bad habit!

 

10. The lift is awesome, but also, damn you author, breaks on any damage.

 

11. The stun is only applied in PvE. I've never seen it applied in PvP. Why? Because sages won't use it until they're forced to. It's a last resort skill. The stun is counted as an additional debuff and lift charges your resolve bar to full in 9 cases out of 10, so when it breaks on damage you're free to go!

 

12. All classes except for commando have interrupts, some more than one, some even on 8s cooldowns. No idea why that would be relevant, especially since you use them in three cases only: against another sage, against a commando (grav round) and against a sentinel (master strike).

 

13. The friendly pull is a great skill. Also vanguards and shadows have enemy pull, which is far superior to that, because pulling friendlies into fire traps or acid pools is not much of a viable tactic. Vanguard's and shadow's pull goes right through any resolve, so... Yeah.

 

14. There. Is. No. Self. Healing. On. A. DPS. Sage. Learn that. It has a 3s cast, every dot tick moves the cast back to the start. We have no abilities reducing the cast pushback available on any hybrid DPS build. You also don't stack alacrity, so you may have as much as 5% activation time, because sometimes you have no choice. A situation in which a sage can heal himself in PvP during a fight happens extremely rarely. It's also far better to actually DPS, because you can either heal yourself for 2,2k or deal 5k dmg.

 

15. There is a target cap on that ability. It also happens to have crappy damage and a huge delay (at least for a sage) between the cast and first damage. All you can get is one tick. Usually. That's around 700-1100 damage to up to 6 targets.

 

16. Cleanse ability makes ourselves useless. A sage can only dispel sorc's dots and a sorc can dispel a sage's dots. In order to make it dispel anything else you need to spec for it and it's not in the right tree for any DPS hybrid. Simple.

 

Now burst.

No, you can't hit for 5k as a sage. Non possumus. I have 1700 willpower, 500+ expertise, best available weapon level (rakata) and I hit for 4k+. The base damage of the skill is around 1700. Math: 1,2 (proc) * 1700 * 1,9 (90% surge) * 1,11 (PvP bonus) = 4302. You can ofcourse boost that using your consumables, probably above 5000, but that's before armor mitigation. Even light armor users have more than 15%. That's when we're assuming a hit against someone with 0 expertise ofcourse.

 

What the author did in this post is he took all the best things of a sage, packed them together disregarding every backlash they may hide. It's not logic he used, it's flawed logic based on corrupted ideas and ignorance. The OP listed a lot of CC without even mentioning they break on any damage and pointing out, that any hybrid spec is based around dots and almost only dots (only weaken mind can proc your double speed telekinetic throw), which renders almost all of sage's CC useless. Including the awesome shield, the aoe root and the lift.

 

Hybrid sages are only left with a slow, an unbelievably short ranged knockback, a 4s stun on a 60s CD and a speed burst lasting 2s with a 20s cooldown, that can be interrupted using any CC basically.

 

The author also has no clue how the procs actually work and how buged they are. He has no idea, that if infusion procs while you channel telekinetic throw it gets wasted in 9 cases out of 10 and has a 10s cooldown. It also needs to proc and procs only on crits. The author also has no idea, that if presence of mind procs while you're casting something your character gets bugged and unable to cast anything for 5 seconds.

 

On top of all that the author didn't even mention the best skill in sage's arsenal, which is Force Potency. It grants 60% bonus to critical chance for the next two abilities used and is awesome, but also buged to hell. If you use any AoE nuke it will consume one charge (you have 2, as I mentioned) per target hit instead of taking one charge per skill, as said in the tooltip.

 

Here's your logic. Author knows nothing about the class, got pwned by some random sage and since he thinks he's soooo skilled he automatically considered him overpowered. He then looked at torhead and came up with this utter trash and compiled it to something, which may seem like a logical explanation to anyone not playing a sage. It's not.

 

Regards,

Kalantris

[Tumri]

Well I read it, and I cant speak for sorcs, but I can tell you I have no abilities as a sage that can hit for more then 3k-3200, so I am not sure where you get the 5k hits. I am not sure where or how you get 6.5k bubbles... Most of the utility you mention other classes can out do, or counter.,....

 

1. You have your 11 point Telekenesis talent which can hit for upwards of 5k with adenals/relic with a Wrath proc. People were complaining about burst so I mentioned exactly how a Sorcerer can burst. Another thing is while Sorcerers don't have a lot of big hitting moves their actual total damage is up there with the best. They're a DoT based class. In Annihilation spec(my only real viable spec) I can't hit for more than 5k but my DoTs and other smaller hits add up.

 

2. 6.5k bubbles definitely are possible with gear. It appears there's some variation on how much the bubble absorbs depending on stats. The bubbles also seem to randomly fall within a range of absorb values so one bubble might be slightly weaker while another is slightly stronger.

 

 

3. Are you really trying to claim that all of the utility listed is outdone? Yeah maybe if you combine ever non-Sorcerer AC's utility and make some kind of superclass you could beat the current Sorcerer utility by a small margin. If you're going to make wild claims then at least provide evidence as to why you think their utility is subpar.

[Ich_Bin]

1. You have your 11 point Telekenesis talent which can hit for upwards of 5k with adenals/relic with a Wrath proc. People were complaining about burst so I mentioned exactly how a Sorcerer can burst. Another thing is while Sorcerers don't have a lot of big hitting moves their actual total damage is up there with the best. They're a DoT based class. In Annihilation spec(my only real viable spec) I can't hit for more than 5k but my DoTs and other smaller hits add up.

 

Just for comparison: Most Scoundrels/Operatives can crit for 2-4k against similar geared opponents - They have to be coming from stealth to be able to do that. And they are supposed to be the one real burst class of this game.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Tumri]

Just to prove you're wrong I'm going to apply the logic you mentioned to the OP's post. Logic and comparison. The whole thread was created around the enormous amount of CC sages/sorcerers have at their disposal, which is utter ******** and I'm going to prove it.

 

 

 

 

1. Completely correct. Failed to mention it charges 3/4 of a resolve bar, so any other CC (including our famous knockback) will charge the resolve bar to full rendering all of sage's debuffs useless.

 

2. Every single class in the game has a slowing ability and above that most of the classes have some sort of gap closers, some even more than one. Also some have passive movement increase abilities (like a combat spec sentinel), that guarantee melee range against any opponent, as sage's slow is identical to the sentinel's one.

 

3. The slow from telekinetic throw only works as long as a sage channels the spell, so it's a 50% slow with a self root. It does somewhat help to keep the enemy away for a few seconds, but eventually the gap will be closed and it's going to happen sooner than later. It's also interruptable and it's easy to interrupt, because the channel lasts 3 seconds.

 

5. Force sprint is awesome, I agree.

 

6. The author failed to mention, that sage's knockback doesn't only have the shortest cooldown, but also the shortest range. It knocks people back around 3-4 meters, which, compared to a 20 meter knockbacks from commandos or gunslingers, is nothing. It's not enough to push a marauder far enough to be out of master strike range assuming he was in melee range.

 

7. The author yet again failed to mention, that the root breaks on any damage. It only lasts 5 seconds if the sage leaves you alone. Otherwise it breaks immediately.

 

8. The bubble absorption is nowhere near 6,5k. It's not enough to absorb a single tick from the fire traps on Huttball, so it's somewhere around 2,5k to 3,2k. Furthermore this skill doesn't make sages tankier in any way, because any DPS is able to cut through with a single skill, because sages have light armor. Try comparing it to a commando's shield, which effectively cuts my damage in half for it's entire duration. It's also on a 20s lockout.

 

9. The author yet again failed to mention the 3s CC breaks on any damage instantly. Now that's becoming a bad habit!

 

10. The lift is awesome, but also, damn you author, breaks on any damage.

 

11. The stun is only applied in PvE. I've never seen it applied in PvP. Why? Because sages won't use it until they're forced to. It's a last resort skill. The stun is counted as an additional debuff and lift charges your resolve bar to full in 9 cases out of 10, so when it breaks on damage you're free to go!

 

12. All classes except for commando have interrupts, some more than one, some even on 8s cooldowns. No idea why that would be relevant, especially since you use them in three cases only: against another sage, against a commando (grav round) and against a sentinel (master strike).

 

13. The friendly pull is a great skill. Also vanguards and shadows have enemy pull, which is far superior to that, because pulling friendlies into fire traps or acid pools is not much of a viable tactic. Vanguard's and shadow's pull goes right through any resolve, so... Yeah.

 

14. There. Is. No. Self. Healing. On. A. DPS. Sage. Learn that. It has a 3s cast, every dot tick moves the cast back to the start. We have no abilities reducing the cast pushback available on any hybrid DPS build. You also don't stack alacrity, so you may have as much as 5% activation time, because sometimes you have no choice. A situation in which a sage can heal himself in PvP during a fight happens extremely rarely. It's also far better to actually DPS, because you can either heal yourself for 2,2k or deal 5k dmg.

 

15. There is a target cap on that ability. It also happens to have crappy damage and a huge delay (at least for a sage) between the cast and first damage. All you can get is one tick. Usually. That's around 700-1100 damage to up to 6 targets.

 

16. Cleanse ability makes ourselves useless. A sage can only dispel sorc's dots and a sorc can dispel a sage's dots. In order to make it dispel anything else you need to spec for it and it's not in the right tree for any DPS hybrid. Simple.

 

Now burst.

No, you can't hit for 5k as a sage. Non possumus. I have 1700 willpower, 500+ expertise, best available weapon level (rakata) and I hit for 4k+. The base damage of the skill is around 1700. Math: 1,2 (proc) * 1700 * 1,9 (90% surge) * 1,11 (PvP bonus) = 4302. You can ofcourse boost that using your consumables, probably above 5000, but that's before armor mitigation. Even light armor users have more than 15%. That's when we're assuming a hit against someone with 0 expertise ofcourse.

 

What the author did in this post is he took all the best things of a sage, packed them together disregarding every backlash they may hide. It's not logic he used, it's flawed logic based on corrupted ideas and ignorance. The OP listed a lot of CC without even mentioning they break on any damage and pointing out, that any hybrid spec is based around dots and almost only dots (only weaken mind can proc your double speed telekinetic throw), which renders almost all of sage's CC useless. Including the awesome shield, the aoe root and the lift.

 

Hybrid sages are only left with a slow, an unbelievably short ranged knockback, a 4s stun on a 60s CD and a speed burst lasting 2s with a 20s cooldown, that can be interrupted using any CC basically.

 

The author also has no clue how the procs actually work and how buged they are. He has no idea, that if infusion procs while you channel telekinetic throw it gets wasted in 9 cases out of 10 and has a 10s cooldown. It also needs to proc and procs only on crits. The author also has no idea, that if presence of mind procs while you're casting something your character gets bugged and unable to cast anything for 5 seconds.

 

On top of all that the author didn't even mention the best skill in sage's arsenal, which is Force Potency. It grants 60% bonus to critical chance for the next two abilities used and is awesome, but also buged to hell. If you use any AoE nuke it will consume one charge (you have 2, as I mentioned) per target hit instead of taking one charge per skill, as said in the tooltip.

 

Here's your logic. Author knows nothing about the class, got pwned by some random sage and since he thinks he's soooo skilled he automatically considered him overpowered. He then looked at torhead and came up with this utter trash and compiled it to something, which may seem like a logical explanation to anyone not playing a sage. It's not.

 

Regards,

Kalantris

 

....Really? You didn't disprove a single thing. All you did was list possible ways to counteract some of their CC. Then you made the ridiculous claim that any CC that has any hope of being countered is worthless. Can I have all of that "useless" CC then?

 

"Hybrid sages are only left with a slow, an unbelievably short ranged knockback, a 4s stun on a 60s CD and a speed burst lasting 2s with a 20s cooldown, that can be interrupted using any CC basically."

 

What exactly do you mean that's all you're "left with"? What happened to the truckload of CC up there?

 

About the burst, yeah expertise will lower the 5k+ figure I gave. Expertise lowers everyone's damage. Do you think other classes are getting 5k+ crits on fully geared BM players? No. They aren't. That burst I talked about is very doable and it's comparable to the burst most other ACs can put out. It's actually far better than Marauder burst and a few Sorcerers have made the wild claim that they have absolutely nothing in terms of burst damage earlier in the thread.

 

----

 

When someone expends resources to counteract an ability it doesn't mean the ability now doesn't exist. Let me make your sort of nonsensical argument for Marauders.

 

 

1. All of our abilities are melee range. People can kite us out of melee range. All we're left with is Force Charge which is a 30m range skill with a 15 second cooldown. Marauders only have 1 ability that does anything ever.

 

2. All of our abilities require rage. If people kite us we don't get rage. Marauders do 0 damage all the time.

 

3. Do you see how stupid this is starting to sound?

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tumri

[Lormif]

1. You have your 11 point Telekenesis talent which can hit for upwards of 5k with adenals/relic with a Wrath proc. People were complaining about burst so I mentioned exactly how a Sorcerer can burst. Another thing is while Sorcerers don't have a lot of big hitting moves their actual total damage is up there with the best. They're a DoT based class. In Annihilation spec(my only real viable spec) I can't hit for more than 5k but my DoTs and other smaller hits add up.

 

2. 6.5k bubbles definitely are possible with gear. It appears there's some variation on how much the bubble absorbs depending on stats. The bubbles also seem to randomly fall within a range of absorb values so one bubble might be slightly weaker while another is slightly stronger.

 

 

3. Are you really trying to claim that all of the utility listed is outdone? Yeah maybe if you combine ever non-Sorcerer AC's utility and make some kind of superclass you could beat the current Sorcerer utility by a small margin. If you're going to make wild claims then at least provide evidence as to why you think their utility is subpar.

 

 

So I state I know little about the sorc only the sage, and tell you absolute numbers then you tell me I am wrong and come back to the sorc......Fail at logic much?

 

At 50 with full champ I have NEVER gotten even a 5k bubble, wanna know how I can tell? when a melee takes my full bubble and still hits me for 2k in the same hit I would get a 5k heal medal, never has happened.

 

Most other classes have the same amount of utility as we do.. It has been shown/listed in the other thread on this same page.

[Ich_Bin]

....Really? You didn't disprove a single thing. All you did was list possible ways to counteract some of their CC. Then you made the ridiculous claim that any CC that has any hope of being countered is worthless. Can I have all of that "useless" CC then?

Win.

 

 

 

Btw Tumri I am really impressed that you are making that much effort to reply to all of these illogical/stupid/offensive comments that are being thrown at you in this thread.

[carbocat]

I play oprative, i wreck sorces just not in huttball. Let those poor light armor class be, they want get nerfed anyway, cause major part of the kids in this game play that class 70-80%

[Boshlord]

If you are getting hit for 5K in a single hit by a sorc he

1. Out gears you

2. Poped 2 relics

3x. Popped an adrenalene for surge.

Also mind you that classes like mauraders and and juggernaught sniper all hit for about that much with just equal gear on sorcs so when we go down in 4 hits we need all of that utility otherwise we fall like a bag of bricks

[Tumri]

So I state I know little about the sorc only the sage, and tell you absolute numbers then you tell me I am wrong and come back to the sorc......Fail at logic much?

 

At 50 with full champ I have NEVER gotten even a 5k bubble, wanna know how I can tell? when a melee takes my full bubble and still hits me for 2k in the same hit I would get a 5k heal medal, never has happened.

 

Most other classes have the same amount of utility as we do.. It has been shown/listed in the other thread on this same page.

 

Sages are the EXACT SAME CLASS with a different name. Your 11-point TK ability is the same as the 11-point Lightning ability. On the OP I provided a talent build so you could see exactly the skills I was referring to.

[Tumri]

If you are getting hit for 5K in a single hit by a sorc he

1. Out gears you

2. Poped 2 relics

3x. Popped an adrenalene for surge.

Also mind you that classes like mauraders and and juggernaught sniper all hit for about that much with just equal gear on sorcs so when we go down in 4 hits we need all of that utility otherwise we fall like a bag of bricks

 

If you are getting hit for 5K in a single hit by a marauder he

1. Out gears you

2. Poped 2 relics

3x. Popped an adrenalene for surge.

 

 

---

 

 

See what I did there? PvP gear counters burst. PvP videos show people doing big crits on undergeared players.

[Darth_Eclipses]

[ sarcasm ]

 

@ 1v1 Comment - Yay me! I can totally kill someone 1v1 and act all macho and cool before proceeding to be the most worthless class in group confrontations! Obviously you only get e-peen from 1v1s so who cares about actually providing utility to win a game! Marauders are #1!

 

[/sarcasm ]

 

Utility to win a game?

 

I guess becoming invincible for 6 seconds so you can last long enough for your friends to get out of the pen in VS to reenforce a door isn't utility enough to help win a game huh?

 

I guess a group wide speed boost so you or a party member can be the first to get the ball isn't utility enough is it?

 

I guess an 90% accuracy debuff on the ones attacking your ball carrier isn't utility enough to win a game huh?

 

I guess an AOE slow isn't utility enough to win a game huh?

 

I guess Force Leap poses no utility at all in order to help win a Huttball match, huh?

 

I guess stealthing away in the middle of a losing fight in VS, only to come back and bleed them when they're 7 seconds into a cap on Ald or VS isn't utility enough to help win a game huh?

 

Oh wait...

 

I guess an AOE mezz wit

[Lormif]

Sages are the EXACT SAME CLASS with a different name. Your 11-point TK ability is the same as the 11-point Lightning ability. On the OP I provided a talent build so you could see exactly the skills I was referring to.

 

And again, as a sage, valor level 58, with all but one champ piece I have NEVER hit anyone for more then 3.2k with any ability, with full adrenals, relic, and cooldowns... It may be possible on a fresh 50, but I have NEVER seen it happen. My TK ability is kenitic damage so it is mitigated by armor.. I cant tell by the talent tree if this is the same for the sorc, theirs may not or it may be bugged as many abilities/talents are. And just so you know there are some difference in the 2 classes already.

[PloGreen]

Good analysis OP. Very good. I hope the Bioware Devs dont ignore this one.

 

Warning tho: Its impossible to bring logic and analysis to the gaming forums. First off, the majority of the SWTOR community are Sorcs so they will automaticly flame you for even mentioning their class.

 

Secondly, you will probably spend most of your time defending your post from people who have no clue what you are talking about and think this thread is another "Lol I got ownd by a sorc, they should be nerfed" thread, when infact your thread is a clear analysis of the basis behind hybrid speccs.

 

Clear analysis doesn't make him right, you can present a case from a number of angles (that is what lawyers do). I disagree with it simply because the top tier talents for sorc/sage are comepletley bollocks. This is why that hybrid spec is popular. The "tons of cc" is hardly game-breaking since all have long cooldowns (and only root is unaffected by resolve)and Iam sick to death of explaining to people why the class has the utility it does. A sorc/sage knows their strengths and weaknesses. That others don't is not my problem, the devs know also, and will adjust accordingly in time, if any changes are needed.

 

I applaud the OP for trying to make his argument in a concise manner and at least back it up with solid information though. This is the sort of post i don't object to because it is done without making stuff up, and he is not discrediting himself. I just disagree with it really, the bottom line is - sorc/sage are not impossible to kill - smart players know what they do, and know how to counter them.

 

I play a sage at battlemaster rank, I've met many other battlemasters from different classes and I don't see them having a problem really, soon as they spot a dps sage or healer - he gets focused or nuked down like he is made of paper.

Ye he will use force speed (counter root, not affected by resolve) and any decent player wil expect it - i mean I keep seeing people describe exactly what sorc sages do (more or less exgerrated but get the gist of it), so my question is, what are the players that complain doing about it?

 

Here is what you can do to counter some of our key abilities. (to those how claim you cannot)

 

Force speed - Use a root. Not hard this ablitity is 2 seconds long, about right imo. Any longer then yes I would say nerf. Any shorter pointless.

 

Tele throw - interupt bang bang. This is gaining me force while im using it and setting up a good proc for damage, it is also snaring the opponent, not rooting them. If i see a simlilar specced sage/or sorc i interupt it, and it gives me the drop 99 percent of the time if Iam on similar health, to set up my proc or dot them or whatever.

 

Shield, "takes forever to knock down" - absolute crap it takes a second or two at the most, you cannot reapply for 20 SECONDS. It can be used to give you a second to survive a crit, or get a fast heal off if your lucky. It's also very useful to help protect team mates and get a vital save on them, so you should know how useful it is.

It is absolutley nothing like a paladins bubble, this is just complete *********.

 

Heals - this is the funniest one if he is dps specced and you cannot interupt a sorc or sage healing you are just awflul. Its not that much harder if he is a healer (mark him and tell ur team to nuke him?). No dps specced sage has imba heals, this is just lies or misinformation. Dont use a big cc to lock them out for a while on them straight way, if they break this they will more than likely have full resolve and you cant stun them or anything, its fine to use when they are nearly dead tho.

Wait for their first big heal, interupt right near the end of the cast, when they cast their second, leap/grapple/pull, knockback anything to interupt it. Last time stun them. Works for me. You can always tell their heals by the green bar. By the fourth heal he should be dead or you have your interupt up again. If their healing dots are outhealing your damage, you are bloody terrible, simple as that.

Key thing is you are a team, if your the only one focusing the healer then your team is basically ****.

 

Knockback? You get knocked back, who doesnt? Not much you can do about it other than be smart where you position yourself. Our knockback has two purposes, to stop us getting swarmed by melee (big hint there) and to knock people off the edges of stuff or into fire. Big deal. You can put points into rooting everyone else, which is useful in huttball - me personally i dont care about them getting rid of the root aspect. The knockback is enough.

 

Dots if your dotted you can be undotted, but thats a teamplay issue. The dots dont tick for alot unless its mind crush + weaken mind, but an instant mind crush proc can only come from letting them spam telethrow or lightning. If they are slow casting mind crush it takes a while, so it can be interupted in numerous ways, or line of sighted.

 

Line of sight

 

Pretty easy to negate range damage by using the environment. If your a shadow or asssasin you can negate ranged damage through an ability, not sure about tanks and melee but id bet there are similar options.

 

Gap closers

 

This is also an interupt. Pulls, leaps whatever are all the equivalent of force speed. Sages have force speed because they wear light armor, and need to be mobile to heal their team-mates and escape melee (crikey who would of thought we need to run wearing cloth), or gain a useful position in cover from which we can throw out sustained damage and decent procs. Alot of classes have simliar things, be it being able to stealth to get out of trouble, or leaping across the map on huttball to score.

 

Rescue.

This is used to pull people out of fire, out of being zerged, unto platforms in huttball etc. Very useful in pvp and pve, long cooldown. One of my favourites because its funny to see people leaping backwards out of danger.

 

Sever force

 

Fairly decent root, good for keeping melee at bay, does a small amount of damage , not affected by resolve. However if you are using the hybrid spec the OP describes, no one has an accurate single target root at all. You cannot have a ranged root that snares one target and run that hybrid spec.

 

Force stun

 

4 seconds and a moderate amount of damage, long cooldown

 

Force lift

 

Locks a target out of the fight, for a while. If your team is stupid they will just shoot the thing you cced that was causing problems (most of the time someone does this), or he breaks the cc - now he has full resolve, and you cant stun him. Use this wisely, like over fire pits in huttball (this can stop them scoring), or only if you have no choice e.g he is a healer who is about to save someone from dying with one heal.

 

We do have a ranged snare, that can slow people down and healers can spec into using weaken mind as a snare, but they need that imo, they dont have any root at all.

 

Conclusion

 

If you let me chain telethrow, use weaken mind, project and proc mind crush and proc telewave at the back, untouched then I will do crazy damage. If your smart, 2-3 players jump me im dead, I try to shield and run and im doing no damage to anyone. If im lucky i might stun one, lift the other and run to gain a bit of time, but that is dependent on my abilities not being on cooldown and more often than not im buying myself time.

If there is more of my class, then work out which is the healer. If theres three healers, good luck. If there are lot of sorc and sage on the other team your in trouble. But that gos for mercs/commandos, shadows, etc.

 

Thats it really. Point is all classes have tools they can use to cc, do good damage, shield themselves or stealth, they all have something that others do not. I could go on about how unfair it is in xx situation with xx class but I do not understand the mechanics of every classs in the game, and would refrain from saying xx class needs a nerf when I havent even played it.

 

Fair points made OP, I just disagree with them.

Edited February 13, 2012 by PloGreen

[Tumri]

Utility to win a game?

 

I guess becoming invincible for 6 seconds so you can last long enough for your friends to get out of the pen in VS to reenforce a door isn't utility enough to help win a game huh?

 

I guess a group wide speed boost so you or a party member can be the first to get the ball isn't utility enough is it?

 

I guess an 90% accuracy debuff on the ones attacking your ball carrier isn't utility enough to win a game huh?

 

I guess an AOE slow isn't utility enough to win a game huh?

 

I guess Force Leap poses no utility at all in order to help win a Huttball match, huh?

 

I guess stealthing away in the middle of a losing fight in VS, only to come back and bleed them when they're 7 seconds into a cap on Ald or VS isn't utility enough to help win a game huh?

 

Oh wait...

 

I guess an AOE mezz wit

 

1. Sure.

 

2. 50% speed buff when you're already running with the 35% sprint buff is nothing. Sorcerers are your only hope of getting the ball first.

 

3. Lol yeah maybe once in a lifetime. It doesn't stop force/tech attacks at all. It stops melee/ranged physical attacks which do almost no damage to the Jugg/tank running the ball anyways.

 

4. It's not AoE and it costs rage. I can spend a few GCDs tab-slowing people I guess but my damage drops to nearly 0 while I do that. The jugg tank running the ball can do it in one GCD with the AoE slow you're talking about.

 

5. That's out best utility move so yeah. Definitely.

 

6. It delays death by 4 seconds. That other crap is all a fantasy scenario you're describing. It'll happen once every 50 games maybe.

 

Basically we're good for delaying death and force leaping when a more capable Juggernaut ball runner isn't around.

 

---

 

This is a bit off topic since we're discussing Sorcerers though.

[Darth_Eclipses]

1. You have your 11 point Telekenesis talent which can hit for upwards of 5k with adenals/relic with a Wrath proc. People were complaining about burst so I mentioned exactly how a Sorcerer can burst. Another thing is while Sorcerers don't have a lot of big hitting moves their actual total damage is up there with the best. They're a DoT based class. In Annihilation spec(my only real viable spec) I can't hit for more than 5k but my DoTs and other smaller hits add up.

 

2. 6.5k bubbles definitely are possible with gear. It appears there's some variation on how much the bubble absorbs depending on stats. The bubbles also seem to randomly fall within a range of absorb values so one bubble might be slightly weaker while another is slightly stronger.

 

 

3. Are you really trying to claim that all of the utility listed is outdone? Yeah maybe if you combine ever non-Sorcerer AC's utility and make some kind of superclass you could beat the current Sorcerer utility by a small margin. If you're going to make wild claims then at least provide evidence as to why you think their utility is subpar.

 

1. You're talking about a sorc who's popping ALL of his cds to get ONE 5k crit burst. How is this OP? This is also based off of procs and channeled abilities. QQ more please.

 

Your tears taste delicious.

 

2. There aren't any 6.5k bubbles. I guarantee you. Please show me a bubble absorbing 6.5k and I will eat my foot. I have tested thoroughly the strength of my bubble even using shield generators and for the vast majority of sorcs, who will use a focus, the shield strength absorbs 3100-3200 MAX. This includes the talented 20% increase.

 

How to test? Go to the Museum on the Fleet, go to the laser. Shield yourself, then take a hit. Subtract the dmg you took from your max HP, then add your remaining HP. Viola! I guarantee you your shield will never proc 6.5k. NEVER!

 

3. Their utility isn't subpar - but neither is your's. Their dmg is what is subpar - and it's made up for by their much talked about utility.

 

Total dmg done is frankly irrelevant. How much of that is effectual dmg? Honestly? Throwing Affliction on everyone around you on CD will certainly pad dmg meters but what is it really doing?

 

AOE dmg specs in VS are totally disingenuous and not indicative at all that the sage/sorc class needs a nerf.

 

Try again.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Darth_Eclipses

[Elrathion]

I can't really respect anyone who puts in his signature "reasons why Sorcerer/Sages are OP in pvp. [or do that for any class tbh]

 

I think a player should do the following:

 

a) Get to lvl 50

 

b) Get the best gear/mods possible

 

c) Fight every class over and over in duel

 

d) Get on forums, learn about cd's/abilities of each class

 

 

IF AFTER ALL THIS, you have 0% chance of beating the other player 1v1, you can talk of an imbalance.

 

The first two weeks when I was 50 I got slaughterd. Any operative, assassin comming my way 3 shotted me. Marauders, ... same stuff. I couldn't outdps a bounty hunter. After a month, it gradually started improving, but things were still rough.

 

NOW? I beat 90% of my server. Why? Cse I care enough to play my class the best possible way. Yes the best assassins, the best marauders, the best ... still beat me at times, some beat me all the time. But that's the growth process.

 

To put it very simple: You can spend your time whining about imbalance, or you can learn to play your class the best possible way and figure out how to deal with each class strenghts and weakenesses.

 

Everyone here posting, how many of you can honestly tell me you did all of the above steps?