LordZanos Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) mehhh not always. It has its uses when CL is on cool down and you got a wrath proc against a target low on health, and if specced you can potentially proc another CL off it which does happen a decent amount of the time to fish for it. Would never stright cast lightning strike but if I have a free wrath proc I find it worth throwing for a little extra dmg and potentially a reset and instant cast of my CL again. Figure 2k+ hit from a wrath proc lightning strike instant procing CL reset followed by a 3-4k+ CL strike can tickle an enemy fairly well in a few seconds:P Even assuming every FL channel gets you a wrath proc, CL only has a six second cooldown. There is no situation where dropping LS would give you a DPS increase period. If CL/CD is on cooldown, drop the other one. If both are, use deathfield/affliction. Using a wrath proc on LS is a waste. Edited February 13, 2012 by LordZanos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antiviolence Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Nerf the fact that every class "casting" an ability just auto faces the target and follows until casted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetraCleric Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Just pointing out that I've never talented the blind because of the DPS loss, so I don't know how it works with resolve. If it, and the 4s stun fill resolve, then the knockback is doing nothing but rooting them in place, in melee range. It won't knock you back if you are full resolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwkingms Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) Way to take the post entirely out of context.. If you aren't going to take the type to spell correctly then don't post. If you're going to take things out of context and not even read the entire thing then don't post. If you aren't going to at try to make your posts not look like garbage you typed out on your smartphone then don't post. I know that the forums don't exactly have spell check but that's no excuse for such atrocious language. i give giv ***** if i mispell but im sick of tired of bads complaining about sorc's we are group pvp'ers with utility and aoe pressure thats the class if you dont like it dont play i can sit here and go through every classes talent trees and moan like a bad about how this shouldnt be and that shouldnt be and blah blah every class has Over powered abilities. sorcs have utility but lack single target dmg my biggest crit on other battlemasters after popping relic, adrenal and wz buff with a wrath proc? from 2k (yes 2k) on tankier classes to 3.4 ish on best case scenario a fellow light armor wearer. afflictions dmg is a JOKE and is only used for its procs. our aoe knockback which immoblizes for only 2 seconds if our target is dotted. 2 seconds is barely longer than our gcd. so by the time i can cast again theyre on their way back to me from a whopping 5-8 meters away. our blind on bubble breaking? yea that operative 1 shotted thru my bubble with his 5k opener. now im at 13Kish hp and bubble-less ( if i even had it pre casted) and he was blind for 3 seconds. that blind adds to resolve if you were un aware melee classes have the tools to counter sorc's and if ur getting kited 100% of the encounter you are BAD. assasins have closers and raged interupts and ranged stuns and ranged dmg and a ranged snare and have the opener ops have the opener and if the sorc is trinket-less theyll be at 30-50% when they get control of their toon again if the ops is geared, add that too moderate ranged dps from the ops and its basically a RUN AWAY scenario for the sorc.. SO OP right? juggs and marauders have force leap on a shorter cooldown than our knockback juggs and marauders can force chocke from the knockback range (DERP SEE IM TEACHING YOU HOW TO PLAY YOUR CLASS) juggs can force push as an interupt and re-force leap as an interupt and immobilize. annihilation mara's just match cooldowns with the sorcs. and trinket the stun. if he has you dotted an instant mezz will be broken and BY THE ROTATION you posted on the sorc your resolve bar would be full already sorcs are easily 1v1 able by melee classes and a sorc cannot stand toe to toe with a sniper or merc in a shootout sorcs have utility to make up for their lower single target dmg and lowest dmg mitigation so what you want is this: lowest hp, lowest dmg mitigation, lowest single target dmg and NO utility and NO escape ability get over yourself, your bad. your thread is full of bad its clear you dont know how to play this game well im sorry for you sorry to the grammar police im at work and screwing thru these posts, and i rly could care less u know what im trying to say /thread Edited February 13, 2012 by wwkingms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I didn't think I'd have to spell out absolutely everything. During a 3s immobilize the Sorcerer runs and gains about 15 yards. During any immobilize/stun he runs to gain ground. That's supposed to be an automatic reaction when you're playing a ranged DPS class... About the resolve bar. The first immobilize + stun will fill it. The sorcerer should have enough time with force slow up to gain the ground required to waste the PTs full resolve bar while he's making his way to the Sorc. Yes, the first immobilize I eat, and I break the stun. The sorcerer only had whatever time it took to cast the first damaging spell to "gain ground". That's not 15 meters after a 2 second cast. I would still be very much in his face, as Flame Burst covers 10m and will snare them to a snail's crawl. In your example, the Sorcerer would not be able to gain any ground at all. That's actually how most of my fights go w/ them, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datku Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) If you waste a wrath proc on LS, you have to cast FL again to get wrath to proc so you can use CL off the cooldown you just negated from Lightning Storm, assuming you even got the 30% proc. It's a straight DPS loss in literally every situation. Not really...I throw affliction and death field off. then FL to proc wrath and throw either a CL or a CD off. Then back to FL, wrath proc and throw which ever CL/CD I didn't throw last proc. Then start FL again and proc a wrath while both CL and CD are still on cool down and if on the move that leaves a LS an option and a bonus if it refreshes my CL so I can throw both on the move along with affliction and Deathfield again before I have to stop moving to use FL again. Situational yes but can be handy. And it has gotten me a killing blow combination more than a few times chasing the ball carrier or chasing in defense of my ball carrier when stopping to channel will let the target run out of range. Edited February 13, 2012 by Datku Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) Sorcerers do not lack single target damage.. I don't understand how this is being readily accepted as fact. In PvE they do competitive single target DPS. They have less ramp-up than Marauders in fact(we have the stacking Annihilator buff mechanic which takes 45 seconds to ramp up fully). If a Sorcerer uses a half decent rotation he can do decent single target damage. Part of that single target rotation is also AoE damage. This doesn't mean their single target is weak. This means that their single target has passive AoE damage attached to it. That's an advantage. Edited February 13, 2012 by Tumri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YMIHere Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Implying I don't know what I'm talking about? No sir, I've been trying to tell people that resolve stops me from using all my CC to keep them locked down, but it just keeps coming back up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordZanos Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Sorcerers do not lack single target damage.. I don't understand how this is being readily accepted as fact. In PvE they do competitive single target DPS. They have less ramp-up than Marauders in fact(we have the stacking Annihilator buff mechanic which takes 45 seconds to ramp up fully). If a Sorcerer uses a half decent rotation he can do decent single target damage. Part of that single target rotation is also AoE damage. This doesn't mean their single target is weak. This means that their single target has passive AoE damage attached to it. That's an advantage. Sorcerers have respectable single target DPS, and GOOD AoE dps. Other classes(including marauders, by the way) do much better single target DPS. It doesn't mean that Sorcerers don't do decent single target damage, but other classes do it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetraCleric Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Sorcerers do not lack single target damage.. I don't understand how this is being readily accepted as fact. In PvE they do competitive single target DPS. They have less ramp-up than Marauders in fact(we have the stacking Annihilator buff mechanic which takes 45 seconds to ramp up fully). If a Sorcerer uses a half decent rotation he can do decent single target damage. Part of that single target rotation is also AoE damage. This doesn't mean their single target is weak. This means that their single target basically has passive AoE damage attached to it. Sorcs have the best sustained damage. Which in PvE is very nice. But in PvP, burst > sustained damage. FL won't crit for more than 1200 on a BM geared player if youre also BM geared. And the only burst we have is DF and CL, which both won't go over 3.5k on equally geared opponents, and especially if you are hybrid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetraCleric Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 No sir, I've been trying to tell people that resolve stops me from using all my CC to keep them locked down, but it just keeps coming back up. That's what I thought, but wasn't sure =p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Sorcerers do not lack single target damage.. I don't understand how this is being readily accepted as fact. In PvE they do competitive single target DPS. They have less ramp-up than Marauders in fact(we have the stacking Annihilator buff mechanic which takes 45 seconds to ramp up fully). If a Sorcerer uses a half decent rotation he can do decent single target damage. Part of that single target rotation is also AoE damage. This doesn't mean their single target is weak. This means that their single target basically has passive AoE damage attached to it. Compared to every other dps class, a Sorc does actually have weak single target burst damage. If you are talking about sustained damage, it's very good and steady, but that's not what kills people in PvP unless they never leave combat or never receive heals. What I've been trying to show you is that you're correct in saying that if a Sorcerer uses a decent rotation, he can do decent single target damage and great AoE damage. The entire problem is that it is very easy to deny a Sorc the ability to do this at all. I tried to show you via my own abilities just how absurdly easy it is to stay on my target if necessary, and I did not use a single stun of my own in the example, which I like to mix in liberally to keep a Sorc locked down. HYBRID Sorcs are not doing this competitive PvE damage you are talking about; those are Madness and Lightning Sorcs. Hybrid Sorcs have no place in PvE outside of Flashpoints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slovic Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 So after reading this entire thread for the past hour or so (because I found it quite interesting) I still have yet to see anyone offer a reason not to play a sorc/sage in pvp. Seriously, every class and their respective AC's have a plethora of problems, bugs, and overall issues with pvp. Then you take a look at sages/sorcs and I cannot find anything near the issues other classes are having. There really is no reason not to play one. Honestly I would play one right now if there wasn't a plague of them everywhere. Its getting so bad now that the majority of warzones I play have 5+ sages/sorcs and the others are usually commandos/mercs. Just look at the OP, I really do not see a disadvantage for any of these utilities/cc/burst/mobility that sages/sorcs seem to get over nearly every other class. Sure they use light armor but that doesn't matter because the vast majority of abilities bypass armor anyways and the abilities that do get affected by armor generally have talents that allow them to bypass 60-80% of armor anyways. The only way I see this getting fixed is the removal of hybrid specs or a serious revamp of sage/sorc trees. To the op: You forgot to mention they also have a 30m interrupt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antiviolence Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) our blind on bubble breaking? yea that operative 1 shotted thru my bubble with his 5k opener. now im at 13Kish hp and bubble-less ( if i even had it pre casted) and he was blind for 3 seconds. that blind adds to resolve if you were un aware Wrong patch. 13k HP? You need better gear. My sage guildie who hit 50 2 weeks ago has 15k HP with a few champ pieces. You need to buck up. melee classes have the tools to counter sorc's and if ur getting kited 100% of the encounter you are BAD. Nope. Not all thanks. ops have the opener and if the sorc is trinket-less theyll be at 30-50% when they get control of their toon again if the ops is geared, add that too moderate ranged dps from the ops and its basically a RUN AWAY scenario for the sorc.. SO OP right? Nope. Doesn't happen often anymore. Unless you're terribly geared which I suspect so. Moderate ranged DPS? I think you're drunk. sorcs are easily 1v1 able by melee classes and a sorc cannot stand toe to toe with a sniper or merc in a shootout sorcs have utility to make up for their lower single target dmg and lowest dmg mitigation so what you want is this: lowest hp, lowest dmg mitigation, lowest single target dmg and NO utility and NO escape ability get over yourself, your bad. your thread is full of bad its clear you dont know how to play this game well I think it's actually you who need to fix all these problems you're having with the class. And I'm glad you're feeling the pain of being QQed and being called for a Nerf. This is the exact scenario OPs/Smugglers had when everyone jumped on them. Well, now that they have been toned a little too much and furthur more in the coming patch, everyone will start preying on the next class they feel is OP. Surprise surprise it's the Sorc/Sage. When you guys get bitten by a nerf, next to go might very well be Commando/Merc. Edited February 13, 2012 by antiviolence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetraCleric Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 HYBRID Sorcs are not doing this competitive PvE damage you are talking about; those are Madness and Lightning Sorcs. Hybrid Sorcs have no place in PvE outside of Flashpoints. Hybrid sorcs are actually at the top of sims by 3% over 31 madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Just look at the OP, I really do not see a disadvantage for any of these utilities/cc/burst/mobility that sages/sorcs seem to get over nearly every other class. The problem is perception. You perceive them to have all of this. In reality, what they have is utilities/cc/mobility/aoe. You can stay alive for a long time, or you can do damage, but you CANNOT do both at the same time. You're either running or you're casting. You do not have the luxury of not running the second someone focuses you. The disadvantage is that anyone who knows this will make it their job to shut you down every time they see you on the field, and that's very easy to do. A Sorc who is running is no longer contributing to his team in any meaningful way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Hybrid sorcs are actually at the top of sims by 3% over 31 madness. That's a new development, they were being placed about 5% below Madness back when I was actually playing mine. Sorry for the misinfo on this, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biowareftw Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Sorcs have the best sustained damage. Which in PvE is very nice. But in PvP, burst > sustained damage. FL won't crit for more than 1200 on a BM geared player if youre also BM geared. And the only burst we have is DF and CL, which both won't go over 3.5k on equally geared opponents, and especially if you are hybrid. Yeah cus a class with dots running in addition to instant nukes is not equal to no dots and a slightly bigger nuke. Give me a break. That is like saying anni/watchman specs are garbage because they can't burst as hard as rage/focus/carnage specs. Oh wait...it is our best spec and the only one worth a damn. Derp I want to hit as hard as a focus/rage guard/jug when I have dots running derp. Derp "burst is king" but noone specs the lightning tree which has burst. Derp. PvP is not about burst. PvP is about survival, control, utility and ENOUGH burst dmg. Hybrid spec gets it all along with being a faceroll class. Hybrid spec needs nerfed. Do not pass go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slovic Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 You can stay alive for a long time, or you can do damage, but you CANNOT do both at the same time. You're either running or you're casting. You do not have the luxury of not running the second someone focuses you. The disadvantage is that anyone who knows this will make it their job to shut you down every time they see you on the field, and that's very easy to do. A Sorc who is running is no longer contributing to his team in any meaningful way. Welcome to every other ranged dps. Except every other ranged dps does not have the utility, healing, interrupts, survivability, mobility, and cc that sorc/sages get to enjoy currently. Yes I have a 50 commando and 50 gunslinger both are not even close to being as good as a sorc/sage. You can argue commandos but they are very easy to shut down and and you can just sit on them making them completely useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetraCleric Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) Yeah cus a class with dots running in addition to instant nukes is not equal to no dots and a slightly bigger nuke. Give me a break. That is like saying anni/watchman specs are garbage because they can't burst as hard as rage/focus/carnage specs. Oh wait...it is our best spec and the only one worth a damn. Derp I want to hit as hard as a focus/rage guard/jug when I have dots running derp. Derp "burst is king" but noone specs the lightning tree which has burst. Derp. PvP is not about burst. PvP is about survival, control, utility and ENOUGH burst dmg. Hybrid spec gets it all along with being a faceroll class. Hybrid spec needs nerfed. Do not pass go. Man, y so mad? I don't think sorcs need more burst, or anything of the sort, so stop trying to act like I think my class is underpowered. Also, I was only comparing burst vs sustained damage in PvP. I know control wins, thats why I'm 31 mad. Edited February 13, 2012 by TetraCleric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Yeah cus a class with dots running in addition to instant nukes is not equal to no dots and a slightly bigger nuke. Give me a break. That is like saying anni/watchman specs are garbage because they can't burst as hard as rage/focus/carnage specs. Oh wait...it is our best spec and the only one worth a damn. Derp I want to hit as hard as a focus/rage guard/jug when I have dots running derp. Derp "burst is king" but noone specs the lightning tree which has burst. Derp. PvP is not about burst. PvP is about survival, control, utility and ENOUGH burst dmg. Hybrid spec gets it all along with being a faceroll class. Hybrid spec needs nerfed. Do not pass go. I like how you are opting to completely ignore how easy it is to stop a Sorc from doing any real damage whatsoever. Even Mercs can deal some meaningful damage while on the move. Sorcs cannot. So they can CC you more. Sounds balanced to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biowareftw Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Welcome to every other ranged dps. Except every other ranged dps does not have the utility, healing, interrupts, survivability, mobility, and cc that sorc/sages get to enjoy currently. Yes I have a 50 commando and 50 gunslinger both are not even close to being as good as a sorc/sage. You can argue commandos but they are very easy to shut down and and you can just sit on them making them completely useless. Exactly. I don't get freakin auto mezzed when I break a commando's shield. I can completely shut down their dps. They don't have passive healing and dots running. They have to CAST their soft cc. They also can't throw instant STUPIDLY STRONG instant heals on other players (which is what a shield is because there is no dispel in this game). It is risk reward for having the advantage of being ranged. Hybrid sorc/sage has none of those risks. They are the best survival class in the game that can dps worth a damn, the only offhealer worth a damn, and have the best CC and can go toe to toe with any ranged class for dmg. Not to mention their burst can be lined up and is not as predictable as commando/merc/slinger/sniper. You can't completely shut down a sage/sorc that is hybrid. You chase them around for 25-30 seconds, and die unless you are a sentinel/marauder in a one on one, or a scoundrel/op who blows every single cooldown and is now WORTHLESS and you are going to be bent over as soon as you get the kill target down. Add to all this commando/mercs don't have an interupt and slingers/sniper can't stunlock you from range or heal or escape. They are both turrets and can be easily focused down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slovic Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I like how you are opting to completely ignore how easy it is to stop a Sorc from doing any real damage whatsoever. Even Mercs can deal some meaningful damage while on the move. Sorcs cannot. So they can CC you more. Sounds balanced to me. What are you talking about? Its very easy to perma-slow any melee as a sorc. On top of all of the various cc's, stuns, knockbacks, 150% sprint, heals, and bubble. All of this while keeping them doted and kiting them around. Guess what other ranged dps (commando /gunslinger) get. Knockbacks all on longer cooldowns, 0 reliable slows, poor survivability, and they have to stop and cast to do any meaningful damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 To the op: You forgot to mention they also have a 30m interrupt. I totally spaced out about that interrupt lol.. the list was already so long that I didn't really even check if I had covered them all. Fixed the OP to include this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biowareftw Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I like how you are opting to completely ignore how easy it is to stop a Sorc from doing any real damage whatsoever. Even Mercs can deal some meaningful damage while on the move. Sorcs cannot. So they can CC you more. Sounds balanced to me. Are you really complaining about not having dmg on the move??? Do you people even attempt to play other classes in this game? In what fantasy world does completely shutting down sorc/sage dmg exist. The one where they don't use any CC's, never use force speed, their slow and stand in one spot, and putting a dot on more then one person is against their sith/jedi code? Oh I have seen these sorc/sages. Maybe you are one of them. I can see why you think this is "balance". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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