The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

[Varicite]

Exactly. I don't get freakin auto mezzed when I break a commando's shield. I can completely shut down their dps. They don't have passive healing and dots running. They have to CAST their soft cc. They also can't throw instant STUPIDLY STRONG instant heals on other players (which is what a shield is because there is no dispel in this game).

 

It is risk reward for having the advantage of being ranged. Hybrid sorc/sage has none of those risks. They are the best survival class in the game that can dps worth a damn, the only offhealer worth a damn, and have the best CC and can go toe to toe with any ranged class for dmg. Not to mention their burst can be lined up and is not as predictable as commando/merc/slinger/sniper.

 

You can't completely shut down a sage/sorc that is hybrid. You chase them around for 25-30 seconds, and die unless you are a sentinel/marauder in a one on one, or a scoundrel/op who blows every single cooldown and is now WORTHLESS and you are going to be bent over as soon as you get the kill target down.

 

Add to all this commando/mercs don't have an interupt and slingers/sniper can't stunlock you from range or heal or escape. They are both turrets and can be easily focused down.

 

Sorcs can also easily be focused down. People do it all the time.

 

It's just not as straightforward to take down a Sorc because sniper/gunslinger/merc/commando all have decently damaging abilities that can be used while moving. Outside of Death field, which has a cooldown, Sorcs do not.

 

So as I was saying before, if you take away the CC/utility, are you prepared to buff their burst or survivability to compensate?

 

Or do you just want them to be free kills from now on?

[Varicite]

Are you really complaining about not having dmg on the move??? Do you people even attempt to play other classes in this game?

 

In what fantasy world does completely shutting down sorc/sage dmg exist. The one where they don't use any CC's, never use force speed, their slow and stand in one spot, and putting a dot on more then one person is against their sith/jedi code?

 

Oh I have seen these sorc/sages. Maybe you are one of them. I can see why you think this is "balance".

 

Why do you seem to keep conveniently forgetting that I am a Powertech? <.<

 

It must be the avatar.

 

The fantasy world that I described about a page or two ago, in which all of those moves were used and still did squat because other classes also have tools to deal w/ Sorcs.

 

It's the crazy fantasy world where I use my interrupt on the one damaging ability that all of their other damage is tied to, and then not let them run away from me.

 

Honestly, it's the healers that are hard to beat for me, but hybrids... not at all.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Varicite

[TetraCleric]

biowareftw is the best player this game has ever seen, so if he can't deal with hybrid sorcs, they must really be OP.

[Tumri]

Sorcs can also easily be focused down. People do it all the time.

 

It's just not as straightforward to take down a Sorc because sniper/gunslinger/merc/commando all have decently damaging abilities that can be used while moving. Outside of Death field, which has a cooldown, Sorcs do not.

 

So as I was saying before, if you take away the CC/utility, are you prepared to buff their burst or survivability to compensate?

 

Or do you just want them to be free kills from now on?

 

Did you just say SNIPERS have good damage on the move? What is this I don't even...

 

You have multiple instant casts... If you hold a Wrath Proc you have CL, you have tab-DoT Affliction, you have Shock, you have Death Field, you have DoTs ticking so much like Annihilation Marauders you do at least some of your damage even while not able to actively attack a target.

 

Do you really think Sorcerers have no burst? They certainly have more than Marauders in Annihilation spec. The problem is people confuse entirely different Marauder specs and think of those big "6k" crits from Rage spec, which by the way is horrible for everything but has 8k burst every 20 seconds or so and does less than shown(in reality 4.5k crits) in youtube videos where people stack buffs to the sky(after the adrenal/buff stacking nerf we're down to 5.5k crits at best with adrenals/relics). Our only viable PvP spec is Annihilation. It's our DoT spec. It's hardest hitting attack does about 4.5k with adrenals popped in Rakata/BM gear and has a 12 second cooldown.

 

You also keep mentioning you're a PT. A few pages ago you said you had a geared 50 Sorcerer as well.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tumri

[theLast]

biowareftw is the best player this game has ever seen, so if he can't deal with hybrid sorcs, they must really be OP.

 

Just lol.

[theLast]

Did you just say SNIPERS have good damage on the move? What is this I don't even...

 

You have multiple instant casts... If you hold a Wrath Proc you have CL, you have tab-DoT Affliction, you have Shock, you have Death Field, you have DoTs ticking so much like Annihilation Marauders you do at least some of your damage even while not able to actively attack a target.

 

Do you really think Sorcerers have no burst? They certainly have more than Marauders in Annihilation spec. The problem is people confuse entirely different Marauder specs and think of those big "6k" crits from Rage spec, which by the way is horrible for everything but has 8k burst every 20 seconds or so and does less than shown(in reality 4.5k crits) in youtube videos where people stack buffs to the sky(after the adrenal/buff stacking nerf we're down to 5.5k crits at best with adrenals/relics). Our only viable PvP spec is Annihilation. It's our DoT spec. It's hardest hitting attack does about 4.5k with adrenals popped in Rakata/BM gear and has a 12 second cooldown.

 

You also keep mentioning you're a PT. A few pages ago you said you had a geared 50 Sorcerer as well.

 

The marauders in my guild all roll Carnage in PVP and they top the damage charts with the highest kill:death ratios in every warzone. Annihilation is not your only viable spec.

[Slovic]

Sorcs can also easily be focused down. People do it all the time.

 

Any class can get focused. I would argue sorc's have a better chance at surviving because of bubble and sprint.

 

It's just not as straightforward to take down a Sorc because sniper/gunslinger/merc/commando all have decently damaging abilities that can be used while moving. Outside of Death field, which has a cooldown, Sorcs do not.

 

Commando/gunslingers have a mobility spec but its not even close to the damage of a hybrid sorc, on top of all the utility sorcs have over commandos/gunslingers.

 

So as I was saying before, if you take away the CC/utility, are you prepared to buff their burst or survivability to compensate?

 

Why do people think they need to be compensated for a nerf? If they got compensated they we would be back to square one again.

 

Or do you just want them to be free kills from now on?

 

Oh you mean like gunslingers?

[Azureflames]

So much misinformation or inaccuracies within the beginning 10 pages of this thread. There's no way I'm going to read this many pages. Someone who has been reading this the entire time needs to summarize a list of arguments and repost this thread. Pretty sure it's worthless at this point.

[Rhazesx]

Sorcerers only have 3 dots, 1 is afflicition its spammable and very low damage and still has the global cooldown. Its a dps loss to cast I have never died to a Sorcerer that uses it. The other is crushing darkness, it has a 15 second cooldown, so its not spammable, the other is creeping terror 9 sec cooldown top tier talent it is not reachable by hybrid build your crying about that some how is able to instant cast chain lightning while loading you up with millions upon millions of dots they don't have.

[LordZanos]

Sorcerers only have 3 dots, 1 is afflicition its spammable and very low damage and still has the global cooldown. Its a dps loss to cast I have never died to a Sorcerer that uses it. The other is crushing darkness, it has a 15 second cooldown, so its not spammable, the other is creeping terror 9 sec cooldown top tier talent it is not reachable by hybrid build your crying about that some how is able to instant cast chain lightning while loading you up with millions upon millions of dots they don't have.

A Sorc not using affliction is doing it wrong. Lightning Barrage is some of our best burst and I've had many a target get away from me with low health only to loldie to DoTs a few seconds later.

[Slovic]

So much misinformation or inaccuracies within the beginning 10 pages of this thread. There's no way I'm going to read this many pages. Someone who has been reading this the entire time needs to summarize a list of arguments and repost this thread. Pretty sure it's worthless at this point.

 

Side A:

 

Sorc / Sage hybrid is overpowered because it has to many tools on top of good survivability and respectable damage with out any negatives of all that utility and and respectable damage. This is really obvious when you compare sorc/sage hybrid spec to the other ranged dps.

 

Side B:

 

Trying to defend all of the utility, damage, survivability hybrid sorc/sages have because they are scared of the nerf bat.

 

Side C:

 

People calling the OP bad, mara's OP, and overall general trolling.

[wwkingms]

I totally spaced out about that interrupt lol.. the list was already so long that I didn't really even check if I had covered them all. Fixed the OP to include this.

 

oh yea warrior have a ranged interrupt too

 

and it immobilizes!

 

and its unaffected by resolve!

 

 

then they have their melee range interrupt, then force choke!

 

then jugs have their push/knockdown and then another ranged interrupt! then an aoe mezz!

 

 

 

 

u bads are so focused on sorcs u fail to see every class has counters

 

 

 

 

 

and to you that said sorcses DO have high single target dmg?

 

your right they do, its just LOWER than snipers, ops, mercs, pyrotechs, marauders, assasins

 

 

lol

 

a sorc cant win a straight forward dps batle with any other dmg build.

 

this is why we NEED utility

[LordZanos]

Side A:

 

Sorc / Sage hybrid is overpowered because it has to many tools on top of good survivability and respectable damage with out any negatives of all that utility and and respectable damage. This is really obvious when you compare sorc/sage hybrid spec to the other ranged dps.

 

Side B:

 

Trying to defend all of the utility, damage, survivability hybrid sorc/sages have because they are scared of the nerf bat.

 

Side C:

 

People calling the OP bad, mara's OP, and overall general trolling.

I wouldn't say marauders are OP, but I've died more to marauders on my Sorc 1v1 than any other class, so I'd certainly say Marauders could be considered an excellent counter to Sorc's, and I find it odd that a Mara would be calling for a nerf to a class that he should be able to counter fairly well.

[wwkingms]

Side A:

 

Sorc / Sage hybrid is overpowered because it has to many tools on top of good survivability and respectable damage with out any negatives of all that utility and and respectable damage. This is really obvious when you compare sorc/sage hybrid spec to the other ranged dps.

 

Side B:

 

Trying to defend all of the utility, damage, survivability hybrid sorc/sages have because they are scared of the nerf bat.

 

Side C:

 

People calling the OP bad, mara's OP, and overall general trolling.

 

 

 

side A: bads complaining about sorcs

 

side b: sorcs trying to paint a clear picture

 

side c: good players sitting back chuckling because they know sorcs arent strong at all

[Slovic]

oh yea warrior have a ranged interrupt too

 

and it immobilizes!

 

and its unaffected by resolve!

 

 

then they have their melee range interrupt, then force choke!

 

then jugs have their push/knockdown and then another ranged interrupt! then an aoe mezz!

 

 

 

 

u bads are so focused on sorcs u fail to see every class has counters

 

 

 

 

 

and to you that said sorcses DO have high single target dmg?

 

your right they do, its just LOWER than snipers, ops, mercs, pyrotechs, marauders, assasins

 

 

lol

 

a sorc cant win a straight forward dps batle with any other dmg build.

 

this is why we NEED utility

 

True Guardians have amazing interrupts, but to have all of those you lose damage. Sorc's dont.

 

Guardians/Sents can be kited into oblivion.

 

Sinpers, ops, mercs, pyros, maras, sins, all do the similar damage to hybrid sorc's. Without the survivability, utility, mobility sorc's have.

[Tumri]

oh yea warrior have a ranged interrupt too

 

and it immobilizes!

 

and its unaffected by resolve!

 

 

then they have their melee range interrupt, then force choke!

 

then jugs have their push/knockdown and then another ranged interrupt! then an aoe mezz!

 

 

 

 

u bads are so focused on sorcs u fail to see every class has counters

 

 

 

 

 

and to you that said sorcses DO have high single target dmg?

 

your right they do, its just LOWER than snipers, ops, mercs, pyrotechs, marauders, assasins

 

 

lol

 

a sorc cant win a straight forward dps batle with any other dmg build.

 

this is why we NEED utility

 

Our force charge actually builds your resolve up and the immobilize portion is effected by resolve. Our ranged interrupt is a gap closer. It's not the same thing.

 

As for Force Choke... I've already mentioned that it's by far the absolute worst stun in the entire game but clearly we're counting any and all CC abilities as interrupts now based on your post..

 

I guess I should change my post to include that Sorcerers have around 6 interrupts. Brb.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tumri

[biowareftw]

biowareftw is the best player this game has ever seen, so if he can't deal with hybrid sorcs, they must really be OP.

 

Here we go again. Get clownstomped in arguments and try to derail the thread. Bottom line?

 

Game was not balanced around hybrid specs. The only other hybrid spec in the game was nerfed despite noone complaining about it being op. Argument over.

 

We never said the other specs needed nerfed (even though full madness/balance > all other ranged in this game). Unlike you we don't try to get classes nerfed to the ground because we are butthurt over an anti class (see ops/scoundrels).

 

You can't handle the truth so you personally attack people, and call them bad (which we just laugh at).

 

We are never going to win a forum war with sorcs/sages. Why? You are the most overpopulated class in the game, which gives you more QQ'rs, BS artists, flamers. See op/scoundrel nerf which was primarily called for by the sorc/sage community.

 

Why are you overpopulated? Because you have too much survival, dmg, utility as hybrid spec. Don't give the story being awesome crap excuse, because the sage story SUCKS and they are being rerolled just as much as sorcs.

 

10-49 brackets validate everything that has been said in this thread. The class is not hard to play. Everyone can do well on it. Everyone realizes this and is mass rerolling them in droves. The only other AC I see being leveled nearly as much is trooper/commando and those are prob just sages/sorc rolling a class that is just as derp as their backup plan, because they know this gravy train ain't gonna continue.

 

You don't need compensation. The pure balance/madness spec is already better then other ranged classes. What compensation did scoundrel/ops get? A further nerf because the surge change will make them useless?

 

You should WANT our suggestion to go through. Why? You are so damn overpopulated and overplayed that they might just decide to nerf you to the ground. See ret paladins in WoW for an example.

 

You know what? I am not suggesting to nerf the hybrid spec anymore and I hope this thread dies. Why? I am going to laugh when you get "ret pallied" and the "to the ground" treatment" all because you didn't want a balanced class while keeping raid dps viability.

 

Have fun when your class is useless due to them having to nerf you to the ground when 9/10 players in warzones are sorcs lol. LOL at the 10-49 bracket right now.

Edited February 13, 2012 by biowareftw

[Varicite]

Did you just say SNIPERS have good damage on the move? What is this I don't even...

 

You have multiple instant casts... If you hold a Wrath Proc you have CL, you have tab-DoT Affliction, you have Shock, you have Death Field, you have DoTs ticking so much like Annihilation Marauders you do at least some of your damage even while not able to actively attack a target.

 

Do you really think Sorcerers have no burst? They certainly have more than Marauders in Annihilation spec. The problem is people confuse entirely different Marauder specs and think of those big "6k" crits from Rage spec, which by the way is horrible for everything but has 8k burst every 20 seconds or so and does less than shown(in reality 4.5k crits) in youtube videos where people stack buffs to the sky(after the adrenal/buff stacking nerf we're down to 5.5k crits at best with adrenals/relics). Our only viable PvP spec is Annihilation. It's our DoT spec. It's hardest hitting attack does about 4.5k with adrenals popped in Rakata/BM gear and has a 12 second cooldown.

 

You also keep mentioning you're a PT. A few pages ago you said you had a geared 50 Sorcerer as well.

 

I did mention that I used to play a 50 sorcerer of this exact spec. I haven't for a while, because my Powertech is more fun. The Sorc just sits around crafting mods now.

 

Holding a Wrath proc is not "instant damage on the move", because it takes either a lot of luck, or a decent amount of channeling to proc it. It's a 30% chance. Either way, this certainly can't be counted among a Sorc's normal mobile damage.

 

In reality, you have Shock on a cooldown, that hits for nothing. Affliction that hits for less than nothing, but is useful for proc'ing fast Force Lightning casts. Deathfield on a 15 sec cd. And then you have Force Slow, which does very little damage on a short cd.

 

For actual damage, you basically have Deathfield once every 15 seconds. The "dots" you mention, is actually 1 dot if you are forced to keep moving, and that's Affliction, which I already mentioned hits for next to nothing per tick.

 

I do think that Sorcs have smaller burst capability than other dps classes, especially when spec'd as a hybrid w/out the supporting surge talents, etc. They do have very good sustained damage (this is what you are talking about when you talk about all of those smaller numbers coming in at one time).

 

Everything you say about Sorcs seems to be full of fallacies, which I and others have pointed out to you, but you refuse to actually believe to be the case.

 

You cannot talk about bringing all of that CC to bear against you in a 1v1 fight if you are also talking about their dots (and when you talk about actual damaging dots, you are actually talking about a Wrath-proc'd Crushing Darkness, which is almost impossible to do if you are being focused) in the same breath.

 

The dots instantly diminish a Sorc's CC options, since most of them will break immediately on damage. The exceptions to this are the knockback root, which lasts for 2 seconds if being damaged, and the Whirlwind, which will stun you for 2 seconds if damaged. The blind from Static Barrier breaks instantly on damage also.

 

You also fail to take into account that a Sorc cannot chain these CC's together due to Resolve, but as Resolve can be buggy when your bar is full and returning to normal, sometimes you can still be CC'd w/ a white Resolve bar. That's a problem w/ the Resolve design, not Sorcs specifically.

 

Out of the 4 moves that a Sorc can use when pressured, only 1 of them will actually do any damage to you, and this is 2-3k if it crits, while Affliction ticks on you somewhere in the hundreds.

 

Also: Do snipers no longer have Overload Shot, Corrosive Dart, Shiv, Frag Grenade, Shatter Shot, Takedown, Leg Shot, probes, and Rifle Shot for instant damage while moving?

 

Do Mercs no longer have Rocket Punch, Missile Blast, Rapid Shots, Explosive Dart, and a more powerful dot (that procs for 0 resource cost off of spammable Rapid Shots) than Sorcs for mobile damage?

 

Both of those classes you mentioned have significantly more damage on the move than a Sorc. It makes sense that they would have more CC options available than the others.

[justcallmetarzan]

side A: bads complaining about sorcs

 

side b: sorcs trying to paint a clear picture

 

side c: good players sitting back chuckling because they know sorcs arent strong at all

 

This...

[Tumri]

See ret paladins in WoW for an example.

 

Oh my god Cataclysm Ret Paladins... The absolute worst class in both PvP and PvE after the first half of T11 up until T13(heard they got buffed after I had already quit for SWTOR)... the game's bloody punchingbag. You could be an amazing Ret and not find an arena team, rated BG group, or even a raiding guild. Top world rets were being benched 24/7 or simply got kicked if they didn't reroll. If you apped to a guild as a ret you got asked "we like your credentials but would you be willing to reroll?". Several top 50 arena rets were having trouble finding team mates with glad exp. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tumri

[blackadda]

This...

 

so so this....

 

I play 2 classes that really own all but the most elite sorcs *with ease* BH/Merc/Pyro and Concealment Operative.

 

Marauder does it too... anything with a good , focused amount of burst and some CC does it with ease.

 

In fact... What classes DONT kill sorcs with ease?

[biowareftw]

This...

 

Side A. OP hybrid spec that was never intended or balanced by Bioware EA who called for nerfs on other classes, then called for FURTHER nerfs on those classes.

 

Now claims the game and their class is perfectly balanced as do the people who rerolled this class, can't believe how simple and stupid it is and aren't yet 50 and can feel the nerf bat breathing down their neck.

 

Side B. LOL at these hypocrites.

 

Side C. New players to SWTOR. Why is there all sorcs in every warzone?

 

Side A. Cus the game is perfectly balanced.

[Varicite]

Why are you overpopulated? Because you have too much survival, dmg, utility as hybrid spec. Don't give the story being awesome crap excuse, because the sage story SUCKS and they are being rerolled just as much as sorcs.

 

You do realize that the Sorc class was overpopulated before the game was even released, right? Before anyone had any idea what their abilities would be. Before the class was even CALLED Sorcerer.

 

There were polls on these forums for years asking what class everyone intended to roll; Sorcerer won by a large margin every time.

 

But I'm sure that you're right, everyone rolled Sorcerer on day one because it was OP, and not because they liked the mystique of the class and were excited to play an evil sorcerer.

[Tumri]

I did mention that I used to play a 50 sorcerer of this exact spec. I haven't for a while, because my Powertech is more fun. The Sorc just sits around crafting mods now.

 

Holding a Wrath proc is not "instant damage on the move", because it takes either a lot of luck, or a decent amount of channeling to proc it. It's a 30% chance. Either way, this certainly can't be counted among a Sorc's normal mobile damage.

 

In reality, you have Shock on a cooldown, that hits for nothing. Affliction that hits for less than nothing, but is useful for proc'ing fast Force Lightning casts. Deathfield on a 15 sec cd. And then you have Force Slow, which does very little damage on a short cd.

 

For actual damage, you basically have Deathfield once every 15 seconds. The "dots" you mention, is actually 1 dot if you are forced to keep moving, and that's Affliction, which I already mentioned hits for next to nothing per tick.

 

I do think that Sorcs have smaller burst capability than other dps classes, especially when spec'd as a hybrid w/out the supporting surge talents, etc. They do have very good sustained damage (this is what you are talking about when you talk about all of those smaller numbers coming in at one time).

 

Everything you say about Sorcs seems to be full of fallacies, which I and others have pointed out to you, but you refuse to actually believe to be the case.

 

You cannot talk about bringing all of that CC to bear against you in a 1v1 fight if you are also talking about their dots (and when you talk about actual damaging dots, you are actually talking about a Wrath-proc'd Crushing Darkness, which is almost impossible to do if you are being focused) in the same breath.

 

The dots instantly diminish a Sorc's CC options, since most of them will break immediately on damage. The exceptions to this are the knockback root, which lasts for 2 seconds if being damaged, and the Whirlwind, which will stun you for 2 seconds if damaged. The blind from Static Barrier breaks instantly on damage also.

 

You also fail to take into account that a Sorc cannot chain these CC's together due to Resolve, but as Resolve can be buggy when your bar is full and returning to normal, sometimes you can still be CC'd w/ a white Resolve bar. That's a problem w/ the Resolve design, not Sorcs specifically.

 

Out of the 4 moves that a Sorc can use when pressured, only 1 of them will actually do any damage to you, and this is 2-3k if it crits, while Affliction ticks on you somewhere in the hundreds.

 

Also: Do snipers no longer have Overload Shot, Corrosive Dart, Shiv, Frag Grenade, Shatter Shot, Takedown, Leg Shot, probes, and Rifle Shot for instant damage while moving?

 

Do Mercs no longer have Rocket Punch, Missile Blast, Rapid Shots, Explosive Dart, and a more powerful dot (that procs for 0 resource cost off of spammable Rapid Shots) than Sorcs for mobile damage?

 

Both of those classes you mentioned have significantly more damage on the move than a Sorc. It makes sense that they would have more CC options available than the others.

 

Those abilities you mentioned for Snipers and Mercs.. Most of them are absolute trash for the amount of resources they consume. They both barely do any DPS on the move. That's how ranged classes are supposed to function. Sorcerers got a few of their main abilities as instant-casts. Count yourself lucky. Affliction Tab-DoTing is quite strong if you absolutely must keep running to avoid being focused down. You also underestimate the power of shock. It hits for more than all but my hardest hitting move(Annihilate).

 

At launch by the way there were already people saying Sorcerers were a capable/safe pick for a class. At launch Sages weren't a massive majority because they lacked the "cool" factor of shooting lightning but now you see their population growing rapidly. You're probably right though. A large percent of the population probably just suddenly decided that throwing pebbles at people was really cool and it was worth rerolling for that. It had nothing to do with their absolute dominance in PvP.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tumri

[biowareftw]

You do realize that the Sorc class was overpopulated before the game was even released, right? Before anyone had any idea what their abilities would be. Before the class was even CALLED Sorcerer.

 

There were polls on these forums for years asking what class everyone intended to roll; Sorcerer won by a large margin every time.

 

But I'm sure that you're right, everyone rolled Sorcerer on day one because it was OP, and not because they liked the mystique of the class and were excited to play an evil sorcerer.

 

False. Melee were rolled bigtime on beta. People caught on quick though and everyone rerolled to Sorc/Sage at the end of each beta phase. Try again.

 

There were a lot of slinger/snipers at one point but many of them lost their love of the class when they put a global cooldown on cover.

 

Glad you got in the last phase of beta though when everyone figured out which class was op as hell lol.

 

I can't believe the hybrid spec even made it into live to be honest. Then again I had just as many bad players trolling my feedback, when I said the class was stupidly OP and I had to try to die on the hybrid spec.

 

Same thing happened in WoW with shadow frost Death Knights. Pathetic players in beta said the class was underpowered and attacked feedback saying...uh no this is just stupid op.

 

What happened? Dk's were inferior to warriors for years. I was trying to protect overnerfs, but I expect sage/sorce to get "to the ground" treatment. Dk's were never as overpopulated as sorcs are atm. It is laughable.

 

Might want to roll an alt. Overpopulated, easy to play and OP. Not a good mix...

Edited February 13, 2012 by biowareftw