is this the worst pvp in MMO history?

[Mournblood]

lets give it at least a year before we make this kind of judgement.

 

We might be willing to cut them some slack considering it's Bioware's first MMO, but some of the design decisions they made with PvP were just too bad to excuse. Even if they hired someone off the street who's been living under a rock and hasn't ever played an MMO, there's plenty of other MMOs out there from which to draw some solid research on what works and what doesn't work. If they hired someone who has been playing MMOs for 10+ years and has PvP'd in every one of them, then we all would have benefited from that experience and seen some very different and much improved PvP mechanics in this game.

 

Here's the top three bad design decisions they've made with PvP:

 

1. RNG in a PvP loot system. Next to getting a piece of your own hard earned gear looted off your corpse when you died in PvP in EQ, this is the second worst idea for PvP in the 15+ years I've been playing MMOs. For a more recent example, if you've played WoW, you know how much RNG sucked in the PvE side of the game, which is why Blizzard changed it to a token system. Players rightfully expect that if they invest the same amount of time and effort as the player next to them, they should receive the same reward. With RNG in your PvP loot system, this isn't possible. You could PvP as much as the next guy, but end up getting very unlucky with your bag drops, which means you'll be at a gear disadvantage for that much longer. You can't have an inequitable loot system like that in PvP and not expect to frustrate the players you subject to it - it's simply unacceptable and extremely poor design. Heck, you guys didn't even bother to code the RNG to check if you already have a particular piece of gear so that it doesn't give you the same piece twice.

 

2. RvR and faction imbalance. You don't have to look much further than Warhammer Online to see all the ways this can go wrong and how it negatively impacts the player base. Warhammer eventually started to implement artificial controls such as limiting the number of players that could participate in fort and city sieges on each side. Blizzard did something similar with their outdoor PvP zones where you would be queued to join and it would only let players enter on a 1 for 1 basis to prevent the more populous side from zerging the other into submission and apathy. Bioware needs to do the same with their RvR areas. I'm not even talking about all the other ways they could improve RvR, or the current bugs, or the painful daily missions that bring you out there. But before any fixes to those other issues will really matter, they need to address the problem with population imbalance in open RvR. It's that simple.

 

3. Gear disparity. I was playing Rift before I came to TOR, and Trion only recently realized the giant PvP turd they had dropped on their players by allowing 4 tiers of gear difference at level 50. New lvl 50 players would literally get obliterated by Prestige Rank 8 geared players. Eventually, Trion levelled out the gear disparity, and made it MUCH easier and faster to grind your prestige ranks to get your higher tier gear. The biggest difference between Rift's gear disparity issue and TOR's gear disparity issue is that Rift didn't have an RNG loot system to potentially protract PvP gear progression. You could count on earning your gear at a certain rate, which made it somewhat more tolerable knowing that on a Warfront weekend, you'd be able to hit the next prestige rank and pick up some new gear. Not so in TOR. What you have here instead is fresh level 50s getting facerolled by players in full BM gear, and the only response is to "suck it up" as you try to earn loot bags that may or may not contain any actual PvP gear. Sorry. In today's MMO market, telling players that they need to be frustrated for a few months and not enjoy themselves before they can finally experience some measure of entertainment from the game they pay to play is not a viable business model and is one sure way of chasing your subscribers away to the competition. And before the reading comprehension challenged trolls start up with the whole misplaced and overused entitlement arguement, this isn't about players being handed anything without earning it. It's about players being able to earn their gear, but at the same time, not being at such a gear disadvantage that the PvP experience is akin to getting a root canal done. Trion eventually figured this out. Bioware can too.

 

There are of course many other issues confronting PvP in this game, some are expected, such as class balance issues, while others aren't. Overall, the PvP in this game has a LOT of potential, and I really like the premise of the Warzones, but as it stands, PvP in this game is definitely one of the worst I've experienced. Bioware needs to take the PvP side of their game more seriously and step up the priority for addressing some of these issues. Long after hard modes and Ops have lost their luster, players will be looking to PvP for end game fulfillment. It simply does not exist in its current state. It's completely up to Bioware to decide if they want to succeed or fail here.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Mournblood

[ChokeForce]

Yes it is horrible.

 

Leveling - Separate leveling areas

Warzones - fun for a couple of weeks now its just Guh!!

Ilum - Enough said

Outlaws Den - ROFL

Planet pvp - No valor or com rewards.

 

Biggest crap shoot ever.

[Tirrexx]

worst pvp in MMO history?

 

Impossible, Bioware said they have the BEST PvP TEam in the MMO industry!

 

«sarcasm off»

[Vydor_HC]

I think any pvp that relies on battlezone type scripted matches is bad....I'm not a fan.

[Kaoci]

How could you possibly say vanilla WoW PVP sucked balls and then say you want more world PVP? Vanilla WoW was all about world PVP, and the addition of Battlegrounds and PVP gear ruined it.

 

Vanilla WoW PVP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SW:ToR PVP

 

 

 

This has got to be a joke. This entire game is a bloody WoW clone.

 

ok so where in wow is there cinematic talks where in wow is there huttball and NO IT ISNT CAPTURE THE FLAG it is pretty much american FOOTBALL with lightsabers and pits of death and tbh were in wow is there JEDI AND SITH and Bounty Hunters OHH where in wow is there no auto attack???

and how much of wow is wows own idea? and my answer wasnt said out propperly the vanilla wow and tbc was good the rest was rubbish

[qPok]

when the devs will understand it?

 

the PvP rank and compétition are better for the game's life than a long long long ... long time to farm a Pvp set,

 

300h for up R60 ? ok bye bye see u

[TUXs]

No.

 

But by far the worst whiners in history!

[Kaoci]

I think any pvp that relies on battlezone type scripted matches is bad....I'm not a fan.

 

i agree but you got alot of publishers and sponsers such as Lucast Arts who want games to be same as wow

[origional]

We might be willing to cut them some slack considering it's Bioware's first MMO,.

 

It isnt their first mmo though. They've been running warhammer now for how long? and have seemingly learnt nothing from it because everything bad they did there they are doing here.

[maximusedward]

yep, even war was tolerable.

SWTOR's world PvP is the biggest joke ever even wow's better.

Edited February 7, 2012 by maximusedward

[Zanthrax]

worst pvp? not really, ive seen much more worse pvp

[Venilator]

Yes and no.

 

 

Yes in that Damage is way too much. Class balance suffers due to how they made the trees and stats.

 

 

Example whats the difference between a the Heals of a heal Spec Sorcerer and a DPS sorcerer? The Truth is nothing but efficiency. The DPS specs heal just as hard... the only thing they lack is the extra heal spells and efficiency of the Corruption Spec.

 

Too many of the trees have abilities that just shouldn't be there. Why does Vengeance have tanking talents? Why does PvP tank gear have a set bonus that ups their damage by 5% if they are guarding.. or why does the DPS Jugg gear give an 8% heal for interceding?

 

There are itemization issues and then their are issues that class spec trees contain talents that should not be accessible to that spec.

 

 

No in that the game is so new you should expect idiotic mistakes.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Venilator

[Scritchy]

No games pvp has made me rage like this ones.

 

Apparently you didn't play Destruction in WAR on release and get that fecalfest that was Tor Anroc. Yay kick into the lava, respawn, yay kick into the lava.

[DawnAskham]

Maybe not the worst...but it has a long way to go to be anything other than a side activity / gear grind for bored players.

 

The combat engine is bad. Frame rates still take a hit too often and combat feels sluggish compared to many other games out there today. Combat should feel fluid and abilities should feel responsive to provide a good PVP experience.

 

Unranked PVP is and has always been a joke, a way for players to get gear without actually having to perform - hence why PVP gear in many games is called welfare gear. For PVP to matter, it needs to have an organized and ranked component (I would prefer team / guild ranked WZ).

 

The UI sucks and without the ability to customize and mod it, we are stuck with whatever the designer feels is best, not what works best for us. Exhibit A to the why it sucks argument is the latest update to the ability bar that not only is horrid, but actually makes some people sick.

 

Basic macro functions do not exist in-game (though some can be accomplished through the use of hardware). I do not want Rift type macros in SWTOR, but basic macros are required or we might as well make it a point and click game.

 

All of this before we get to any discussion around balance or gear scaling, which have always been and always will be contentious issues in a gear based PVE centric MMO.

 

Oh and to all the WoW bashers, while WoW has all the same issues as other PVE gear centric MMOs do with class balance and gear scaling, it at least has a combat engine that works, has ranked PVP, and has basics like mods, macros, and UI customization - all of which is lacking in the current iteration of SWTOR.

 

Let's hope the devs here have much more in store for us and will be delivering it sooner rather than later, or PVP in SWTOR may be one of the worst PVP experiences in MMOs.

Edited February 10, 2012 by DawnAskham

[Haeso]

Ins't this the same failure of a team that did WAR?

 

Also, saying WoW is silly...love or hate the game you have to admit they set the CURRENT standard for MMO pvp.

 

The "Current Standard" Is a joke. DAoC, AC:DT, Shadowbane - they were all better than anything to come out in the past decade as far as PvP is concerned.

 

Anyone who takes WoW seriously is an even bigger joke than the game itself.

[Crassius]

is it?

 

y or n, thanks...

 

same unbalanced warzone **** i've seen in WAR and RIFT.. premades facerolling pugs. if they made a *********** matchmaking system and made ilum more interesting it could be "ok".

[jcyrus]

No, it's not the worst PvP in MMO history.

 

SWG was worse. WAR (at least at launch) was worse. WoW's balance has been worse. DAoC's 1vs1 and CC was worse.

 

The list goes on.

 

SWTOR has fairly good PvP for so soon after launch. The main thing that has been screwing it up is the imbalances of overpowered consumables (pre-nerf Biochem rakata medpac, water, pre-nerf buff stacking), and the Expertise stat.

 

If they were to get rid of Expertise, and restrict consumables to PvP-only items in PvP areas, the state of PvP would vastly improve.

 

They go through all the effort to balance skills, balance classes, make sure none are too powerful, make sure you can't be chainstunned non-stop... then they throw all that work out the window by introducing Expertise into the mix. It's essentially the imbalance stat.

Edited February 10, 2012 by jcyrus

[Opapanax]

is it?

 

y or n, thanks...

 

Sad to say, more than likely not. The fact that this is considered AAA is..

[DarthOvertone]

The PvP combat itself is actually very awesome when it happens sans zerg blobs. So the combat core of the PvP in this game is a feather in BW's cap that they certainly can build upon.

 

However, the argument can certainly be made that Ilum is the biggest MMO OPvP disaster of all-time, without even a hint of hyperbole.

[Ewoktookmyspeedr]

But I would go out on a limb and say that the majority of you folks that are here saying SWtor pvp sucks ***, are probably desperate TRION employees here on the forums trying to get more subs to come back to that pollished turd of a game that came out so few months ago. Of all the posts I did read I never heard Rift mentioned, and I don't think it belongs.

This game is only a couple months old anyhow. Stop taking yourselves so seriously and just roll an alt until this stuff gets cleared up. In the end this is the newest game and as such has the best chance of getting the proverbial "it" right. Worst case scenario a new game comes out and everybody goes there. This isn't life or death. at least not for me. But then again I breath through my nose....

[ARMofGod]

Yes, it is. FUEA

[Ortof]

Ins't this the same failure of a team that did WAR?

 

Also, saying WoW is silly...love or hate the game you have to admit they set the CURRENT standard for MMO pvp.

 

I set the standard for most times bouncing a checking account. Does that mean that I should be praised for setting the bar? pfft

 

Just because WoW is on a never ending merry go round while the devs play the "ignore the actual problems" game, doesn't mean that the PVP doesn't suck. My 4 year old knows balance better than some of those devs, or should we start dragging up some old "which dev played what" threads and that just so happened to line up with ridiculously OP classes.

 

WoW set the standard for WoW. Eve is Eve and SW TOR is SW TOR. All may be MMO's but all are different games with different view points. So you really can't say WoW set the standard for balance in regards to SW TOR or any other. "That" is being silly.