Players should have more control over getting rare items

[bleidlein]

The problem with a system more like EQ2 is the rares aren't rare anymore. They become the expected base stats for your characters. All my characters armor and spells were crafted using rare mats, I wouldn't even consider using anything less. Why? Because people sit there day and night clicking nodes for free until they drive the price of rares dirt cheap, which also drives down the price of crafted items, making them worth little more than the mats it costs to make them.

 

The way this system is set up, failure is expensive, it's expensive to the point where sometimes it's not even worth doing. I settle for blue pieces on my companions because purples can cost me so many mats to learn I'd outlevel the piece by the time I was able to make it. And I LOVE that. I love for once, rares being rare and not the standard. It makes it so much better when I do get a purple schematic because I know not every crafter everywhere has grinded that piece to purple also.

 

This.

[Saldrex]

Disagreeing != not understanding my point

 

I somehow feel you are missing the point of others though.

 

Also as far as your point goes I understand it as, If you can farm it yourself you can much more reliably get a hold of the materials you are looking for.

 

My problem with that statement is that it is based on the assumption that it would be and other games are used to "prove" that you would more reliably get a hold of them.

 

This may not be the case however, You might be able to farm and get lucky and get one within the first 5 minutes of farming but the average could be two hours waiting to get more which would be far from an improvement in my opinion.

 

An assumption seems to be that the epic / purple / artifact (I assume that is what you mean by rares based on how you keep describing them) would be harvested in a much faster rate and that they would be random on every node and more common. There has been no mention of the blue mat. More accurately the rate you are thinking of for the purple would be the rate of the blue with a much harder to find purple.

 

Another assumption is that the rates of gathering may not be purposely set to be low and somehow miraculously change based on the system of acquisition. Changing the system of acquisition could be easily designed around keeping the acquisition rate low. As it is designed It appears to be intended for a low acquisition rate. The rate of acquisition could easily be kept low through miniscule drop chances, long re spawns for rare material nodes, competition, and more. The rate may instead decline for you and others.

 

The only thing I see is the removal of the guaranteed blue material in your proposal and instead forcing people to compete for them. What you appear to be asking for really stems from a desire to retrieve more materials quicker. I am sorry if you prefer games where rare materials were easier to obtain.

 

Changing the system of acquisition does not necessarily mean you will get more quicker if it is intended to be slow and could be worse than it already is.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Saldrex

[ArmoredJuneBug]

I was talking about other games.

Yes, I know.

 

I tried for a sophisticated way of pointing out that being completely irrelevant, as it doesn't translate to TOR.

[Umbrex]

My thoughts about this topic

[starmanmmo]

I somehow feel you are missing the point of others though.

 

Also as far as your point goes I understand it as, If you can farm it yourself you can much more reliably get a hold of the materials you are looking for.

 

My problem with that statement is that it is based on the assumption that it would be and other games are used to "prove" that you would more reliably get a hold of them.

 

This may not be the case however, You might be able to farm and get lucky and get one within the first 5 minutes of farming but the average could be two hours waiting to get more which would be far from an improvement in my opinion.

 

An assumption seems to be that the epic / purple / artifact (I assume that is what you mean by rares based on how you keep describing them) would be harvested in a much faster rate and that they would be random on every node and more common. There has been no mention of the blue mat. More accurately the rate you are thinking of for the purple would be the rate of the blue with a much harder to find purple.

 

Another assumption is that the rates of gathering may not be purposely set to be low and somehow miraculously change based on the system of acquisition. Changing the system of acquisition could be easily designed around keeping the acquisition rate low. As it is designed It appears to be intended for a low acquisition rate. The rate of acquisition could easily be kept low through miniscule drop chances, long re spawns for rare material nodes, competition, and more. The rate may instead decline for you and others.

 

The only thing I see is the removal of the guaranteed blue material in your proposal and instead forcing people to compete for them. What you appear to be asking for really stems from a desire to retrieve more materials quicker. I am sorry if you prefer games where rare materials were easier to obtain.

 

Changing the system of acquisition does not necessarily mean you will get more quicker if it is intended to be slow and could be worse than it already is.

 

I never once said I wanted them quicker, I just want more control over getting them myself.

 

You're saying that my system is flawed, and yet I sent my companion out 14 times in one day at a cost of something like 2.5-3k each time and got no rares. None. That's not fun in my opinion. A game is supposed to challenge players and make the game fun for them. In other games, you can farm run instances, but in the end you get what you want based on your own actions. Sending a companion out to get rares is a silly way to harvest materials. I'd rather farm two hours for one thing than send a companion out 14 times and get nothing.

 

One other point: sending out companions and WAITING an hour for them to come back to see what they have is also stupid. I want to improve my toon, and waiting on a RNG once an hour is not the way to do it.

Edited February 4, 2012 by starmanmmo

[Saldrex]

I never once said I wanted them quicker, I just want more control over getting them myself.

 

You're saying that my system is flawed, and yet I sent my companion out 14 times in one day at a cost of something like 2.5-3k each time and got no rares. None. That's not fun in my opinion. A game is supposed to challenge players and make the game fun for them. In other games, you can farm run instances, but in the end you get what you want based on your own actions. Sending a companion out to get rares is a silly way to harvest materials. I'd rather farm two hours for one thing than send a companion out 14 times and get nothing.

 

One other point: sending out companions and WAITING an hour for them to come back to see what they have is also stupid. I want to improve my toon, and waiting on a RNG once an hour is not the way to do it.

 

To me by stating that you do not want to wait sounds like you want to get it sooner. It seems like you did not get what I was saying either.

 

Those 14 times you sent them out you got blue mats, sorry you did not get "rares", but the two hour time I refer to is concerning lets say getting the blue mat, not the rare purple one. It could be relatively the same if you had to go out and farm blue nodes at the rate of one every 2 hours and still not get the rare purple mat from one of them.

 

You again assumed you will be able to farm the rare mat within that 2 hour time frame (or it at least sounds that way to me) and you would still be reliant on the RNG. If scarcity of the material is intended the rate from farming in the world could be much the same as the rate the companion is harvesting it at. Which to some might end up a much more frustrating system and they are forced to compete with such scarce materials.

 

The RNG is also not quite once an hour as you have stated but rather 5 an hour if you send 5 companions out at a time.

 

I have never said that your system was fundamentally flawed but rather that its implementation does not mean that things would be any better. It can be designed in a way that rare materials become easy to come by or it can be designed so that rare materials are hard to come by still. What you are asking for could in the end just lead to more spent farming by all.

 

One of the points of frustration that you seem to bring up is that you have not received a "rare" material in the 14 times you sent your companion out. I do not see any way that the issue is inherently fixed by implementing your change. It only changes if you change the scarcity of the material as well.

[ArmoredJuneBug]

...I sent my companion out 14 times in one day at a cost of something like 2.5-3k each time and got no rares.

Then either the RNG hates you, you're running only orange/yellow missions and/or you have low approval/low crit bonus on all companions.

 

I'm not aware of any mission skill with that expensive, non-prototype/artifact, missions with such an abysmal rate of success.

 

No offense but I find that extremely hard to believe.

 

Of course, it's also an even better reason to simply buy the materials and/or missions off the GTN. Even with vastly inflated prices I'm sure you're going to get away cheaper than 35-40k.

[KaiHeilos]

You can't control RNG

 

/thread

[starmanmmo]

Then either the RNG hates you, you're running only orange/yellow missions and/or you have low approval/low crit bonus on all companions.

 

I'm not aware of any mission skill with that expensive, non-prototype/artifact, missions with such an abysmal rate of success.

 

No offense but I find that extremely hard to believe.

 

Of course, it's also an even better reason to simply buy the materials and/or missions off the GTN. Even with vastly inflated prices I'm sure you're going to get away cheaper than 35-40k.

 

If you knew who I was and what I do, I don't lie. I chronicle everything in every MMO I do. Check my sig.

 

Just like I ran Undead Strat over 80 times (80!) before my Wildheart Kilt dropped back in '05. I'm currently running Molten Core STILL for the Garr half of the Legendary.

 

So yeah, sometimes the RNG hates me.

[starmanmmo]

To me by stating that you do not want to wait sounds like you want to get it sooner. It seems like you did not get what I was saying either.

 

Those 14 times you sent them out you got blue mats, sorry you did not get "rares", but the two hour time I refer to is concerning lets say getting the blue mat, not the rare purple one. It could be relatively the same if you had to go out and farm blue nodes at the rate of one every 2 hours and still not get the rare purple mat from one of them.

 

You again assumed you will be able to farm the rare mat within that 2 hour time frame (or it at least sounds that way to me) and you would still be reliant on the RNG. If scarcity of the material is intended the rate from farming in the world could be much the same as the rate the companion is harvesting it at. Which to some might end up a much more frustrating system and they are forced to compete with such scarce materials.

 

The RNG is also not quite once an hour as you have stated but rather 5 an hour if you send 5 companions out at a time.

 

I have never said that your system was fundamentally flawed but rather that its implementation does not mean that things would be any better. It can be designed in a way that rare materials become easy to come by or it can be designed so that rare materials are hard to come by still. What you are asking for could in the end just lead to more spent farming by all.

 

One of the points of frustration that you seem to bring up is that you have not received a "rare" material in the 14 times you sent your companion out. I do not see any way that the issue is inherently fixed by implementing your change. It only changes if you change the scarcity of the material as well.

 

Yes, but there's one difference: if I do it myself, it's free. I don't have to keep paying companions over and over again. It's a ridiculous system.

[Shonuff]

There needs to be a better way to make purple items other than playing the Random Number Generator. I've had entire days when I've sent out companions on missions after mission and got nothing.

 

Now, the apologists would say that by not making rare components less rare, it makes the rare item easier to make and therefore less rare. True, but that's not the point of this.

 

I'm saying that the PROCESS of making the rares is broken. There needs to be a better way to get rare components that's at least somewhat skillful, or time consuming, but the current way isn't working. If I want to spend the day farming and get rares from archaeology, I'd feel better doing that then blowing 3.5k every time I send a companion out and get nothing back from it, WITH AN HOUR WAIT.

 

And to make it worse, commendation vendors sell better items.

 

No, this system is broken.

 

As far as hitting those crits to get purple items and making end game crafts worth buying/using, Patch 1.1.2. is suppose to fix this overall making crits easier to hit. Also further improvments on crafting across the board to make them endgame friendly and attractive.

 

Don't know what to say about the companions. Archeology is can be done on foot for free and Treasure Hunting is mostly for Gemstones. Just have your companion with full affection and make sure he/she has an efficiancy in arch or treasure and you should get those rare gemstones easy.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Shonuff

[Saldrex]

Yes, but there's one difference: if I do it myself, it's free. I don't have to keep paying companions over and over again. It's a ridiculous system.

 

Not if you use "consumable mining picks" in order to interact with the nodes. The price might then be the same.

 

As I have been trying to say, the way the system is implemented is probably more of the key issue. If they wanted to make you take a long time it still can. If they wanted a money sink component to it there still can be one.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Saldrex

[Cemellyn]

I would suggest that RE to work in such a way. The RNG stays but this time your success rate improves the more times you craft it.

 

Green items - 5% base chance of learning a higher tier schematic.

Every item of the same type you RE increase your chance by another 10%

 

Blue items - 3% base chance of learning a higher tier schematic

Every item of the same type you RE increase your chance by another 5%

 

Purple items - 2% base chance of learning a higher tier schematic

Every item of the same type you RE increase your chance by another 2.5%

[ArmoredJuneBug]

It's a ridiculous system.

No, it's not.

 

It's a system you disagree with, and one you think you'd personally benefit from changing. Full stop.

 

That's it, nothing more - nothing less.

 

There are many reasons, several of them good, for why the current system works the way it does. You may disagree with those reasons, or believe that they don't matter, but that doesn't change anything.

 

As for you getting no crits during a full day of missions - multiple times no less, as well as your servers GTN carrying neither crafting missions with guaranteed returns nor artifact quality materials I don't for a moment believe that to be true.

 

But hey, even if it were that's your opportunity to make a lot of credits.

 

Just make sure your companions have decent approval and don't run missions with too high risk of failure.

I would suggest that RE to work in such a way. The RNG stays but this time your success rate improves the more times you craft it.

Unfortunately that'd devalue both quality crafted goods as well as increase inflation in the economy as well.

 

Personally I only feel one change is necessary for reverse engineering - making it impossible to 'learn' the same schematic multiple times. I'm good with further reducing the chance of a schematic proc from reverse engineering if that happened, as it'd increase the odds of being able to learn the schematic you're actually after significantly.

[malkeeor]

If an item is rare why should one have control over it?

[Cemellyn]

 

Unfortunately that'd devalue both quality crafted goods as well as increase inflation in the economy as well.

 

Perhaps. But I feel that having a player RE 600 items to get a better schematic is just plain crazy when the another player may get lucky and get the schematic within a single try.

 

Also consider this - if the current level of schematics are not the highest ones we can learn and future game contents adds even better base schematics. Crafters are going to have to go through the same thing all over again.

 

For that unlucky player who had to RE 600+ items to get to what they want. Its going to make the game increasingly frustrating enough to make some of them consider rage quiting.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Cemellyn

[ArmoredJuneBug]

But I feel that having a player RE 600 items to get a better schematic is just plain crazy when the another player may get lucky and get the schematic within a single try.

Being owned by the RNG is a bother but the point is that it'll even out over multiple schematics, as well as multiple players.

 

To keep it consistent without increasing inflation or reducing the value of crafted goods you'd have to do something like set a static number of tries for each schematic.

 

To me that's a far worse solution.

Also consider this - if the current level of schematics are not the highest ones we can learn and future game contents adds even better base schematics. Crafters are going to have to go through the same thing all over again and for the player who had to RE 600+ items to get to what they want.

Yes, that's the whole point.

 

As long as high-end crafted gear is good enough I don't see any problem with that. It keeps players invested and acts as an effective credit sink.

 

Granted, most players won't get all schematics but I don't really feel that's the intent either.

[Marlaine]

Disagree.

 

Regardless, what's the point of complaining. In the time it took you to write your post you could be halfway through leveling an alt to get more companions running missions for you.

[Mrrshan]

I read through this thread and i have to say one thing ....

 

This is swtor, not eq2 , not wow.

 

Please DO NOT try to get a flawed system like EQ2's here. I find crafting and resource gathering in SWtor is different and I like it. Eq2's crafting sucks and no one should implement that boring system. Leave it where it belongs and let's enjoy the system we get in swtor. I am sure it will get better over time.

 

Just the fact that I can send my companions out there to gather resources while I do other stuff is a time saviour however you look at it.

 

So my advice, if you miss the system from EQ2 that much, please don't let us stop you from playing your dream game.

[Cemellyn]

Being owned by the RNG is a bother but the point is that it'll even out over multiple schematics, as well as multiple players.

 

To keep it consistent without increasing inflation or reducing the value of crafted goods you'd have to do something like set a static number of tries for each schematic.

 

To me that's a far worse solution.

 

Yes, that's the whole point.

 

As long as high-end crafted gear is good enough I don't see any problem with that. It keeps players invested and acts as an effective credit sink.

 

Granted, most players won't get all schematics but I don't really feel that's the intent either.

 

I disagree. Some people can get incredibly lucky and learn a pattern on the 1st try. Some don't. To me this doesn't seem credit sink intentionally put into the game, more like something that happened by accident.

 

In addition if it takes way too much effort to RE a higher level schematic then a player might as well not bother with it and just grind missions for commendations. That way they get the mods they want and also gain credits.

Unlike an unlucky crafter who loses money but does not get the better schematic to make that mod.

[Marlaine]

I disagree. Some people can get incredibly lucky and learn a pattern on the 1st try. Some don't. To me this doesn't seem credit sink intentionally put into the game, more like something that happened by accident.

 

In addition if it takes way too much effort to RE a higher level schematic then a player might as well not bother with it and just grind missions for commendations. That way they get the mods they want and also gain credits.

Unlike an unlucky crafter who loses money but does not get the better schematic to make that mod.

 

One of the biggest problems with mmos is the guaranteed assurance that you WILL get an item over an essentially small period of time. I am glad to see a more "Diablo-esque" version that prevents you from having every single possible pattern within a month or two of the game's release. If it was easy, then they might as well have just copied over wow's crafting system and forgotten all about the RE concept, because all RE would be is a small mini-game designed to artificially increase the time that it takes you to level a basic crafting system.

 

I'm sorry, but I LIKE it when a crafter spends a boatload of change and doesn't get a purple schematic (unless it's me of course!). I LIKE it when I have a pattern that someone else needs to save up for to try and get the materials so they can have a CHANCE at getting that pattern. I LIKE differentiation in the market place. If I wanted another commodity market (which SWTOR WILL turn into eventually), I'd just stick with WOW.

[Fubbik]

Players need to start realizing that crafting in this game is not primarily to equip yourself at a reasonable cost. It is a system that rewards dedicated crafters and diversifies the market.

If you want a specific purple item for personal use then the best way is to simply BUY IT OFF THE GTN ! (assuming it's not BoP ). If you want to proc a specific pattern in order to sell it and make a profit, then buckle down and enjoy the RE cashdrain ride as a true crafter.

 

Unfortunately there are too many players that only have WoWs system as a point of reference and think crafting means everyone having access to everything.

 

(Remove the "feature" "You already know this schematic" for the love of all that's good though)

[ArmoredJuneBug]

Some people can get incredibly lucky and learn a pattern on the 1st try. Some don't. To me this doesn't seem credit sink intentionally put into the game, more like something that happened by accident.

That's very much intentional.

 

The point here isn't that every player should have every plan, it's that valued plans and credits sunk into crafting will even out over the entire population.

In addition if it takes way too much effort to RE a higher level schematic then a player might as well not bother with it and just grind missions for commendations.

If almost no players were to pick up crafting skills, or bother trying to reverse engineer their way to even a few interesting schematics, the we'd have a problem.

 

As of right now we're not there though, people do keep reverse engineering their stuff.

 

And why not, what else are you going to use your spare credits for?

[Cemellyn]

I went back and reread the post and wonder why I would put that in my first post. Might have gone off topic a little and caused a bit of confusion here.

Anyway my stance on RNG & RE remains the same. Though, I don't have any issues with RNG as far as gathering missions or getting a crit on an item is concerned.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Cemellyn

[Erevan_Kindelar]

Since OP is asking for the material gathering and crafting processes to be changed to match EQ2/WOW, can I hijack the thread and ask for the material gathering and crafting processes to be changed to match SWG?

 

But seriously... every game has its own mechanism, and SWTOR is already borrowing a lot of features and concepts from the likes of WOW. Adding one more to that list makes this game more "WOW with a Star Wars skin", and less "Star Wars", when Bioware seem to want to try to differentiate their product from the Blizzard offering.

 

Rares are rare for a reason - they do not come up very often. Making their presence more common devalues them. Can I have the "Statement-of-the-bloody-obvious of the week" award now?

If the gathering mechanism is changed so that the player exclusively gathers to give the OP (and many others) a feeling of accomplishment at finding rares, with a bump to the in-world node density and respawn rates, irrespective of the drop frequency for rares, then many other players will complain about taking away the option of getting the companion to harvest while the player runs missions.