1.1.2 = Dealbreaker

[oddmyth]

Its entire purpose is to remove playstyles from the game. The implication is that eventually all hybrid specs will eventually be removed. IE my vanguard runs 50/50 assault/tactics for pve, buta tactics/shield for pvp. Eventually that will get removed and I'll have to use one tree...

 

The entire purpose is to finally be able to balance the pure specs on the damage output they should be able to achieve without having the sacrifice damage ability scaling in the third tier of each talent tree.

 

They can't fix us without restricting the more powerful mid tree abilities.

 

Its possible other hybrid builds may fall by the wayside, it depends entirely on the balance of those mid tier talents across the trees of any single archetype.

 

This is not the first game to have this problem. Won't be the last either. Seems to be a lesson learned by developers in almost every MMO.

[Noleader]

I wish people would quit the 'OMG I QUIT BECAUSE THIS CHANGE' responses. Had we beleived the boards there would be no ops running around with the changes they got. Statements lose their meaning when everyone says they will quit over every change and don't.

 

If you dislike a change then quit... I am sure they have a survey they will ask you to fill out when cancelling and there you can put your objections. Doing that will carry more weight then coming to the forum and tossing around ideal threats which less then 1 in 10 will actually act on.

 

Need proof just look at when Blizzard added Warden to WoW...

[smallvylle]

I agree. I run my shadow as an infiltrator, but instead of speccing for shadow technique, i actually skipped it and was using combat technique with a shield generator. This gives me double the armour and dmg reduction, a chance (20%) to shield and 20% absorption. Not great for a tank, but for an assassin, it's god sent for not dying either from aoe or focused fire instantly in pvp. Due to the high crit, 4ccs and circling shadow+projection combo, i can stay alive and do amazing dps. But now they are nerfing circling shadow so that you have to NOT only get shadow technique, it has to be ON for CS to proc.

 

That essentially killed my infiltrator/combat technique build. IMO BW should allow players to be creative and play with the builds however way they want. 1.1.2 is basically telling us shadow players that, "hey, you are only allow to play 1 of the 3 trees because that's how we built it."

Edited February 2, 2012 by smallvylle

[Haligator]

I agree. I run my shadow as an infiltrator, but instead of speccing for shadow technique, i actually skipped it and was using combat technique with a shield generator. This gives me double the armour and dmg reduction, a chance (20%) to shield and 20% absorption. Not great for a tank, but for an assassin, it's god sent for not dying either from aoe or focused fire instantly in pvp. Due to the high crit, 4ccs and circling shadow+projection combo, i can stay alive and do amazing dps. But now they are nerfing circling shadow so that you have to NOT only get shadow technique, it has to be ON for CS to proc.

 

That essentially killed my infiltrator/combat technique build. IMO BW should allow players to be creative and play with the builds however way they want. 1.1.2 is basically telling us shadow players that, "hey, you are only allow to play 1 of the 3 trees because that's how we built it."

 

Exactly. I an using a different hybrid spec, but the joy I get from these games is in gaming the talent trees to suit my playstyle. Their "intended" playstyles are not fun for me, so why give them my money?

[Powershifterr]

There are some ups and downs with the proposed changes when it comes to the class overall. That being said I think that the reason for these changes is that so many people were going for hybrid specs and foregoing the 31-point talents because these specs were simply more fun to play. Bioware in seeing so many skipping the 31-pointers is stepping in, stopping hybrid builds, taking choices out of player's hands, and practically telling users exactly how to play the class.

 

These changes are not a nerf to damage, rather a huge nerf to the "fun factor" people saw in the class.

 

Is this the most effective way to balance the class tho? Why can't they just buff the 31 pointers to make them more attractive or provide a reason to using these while still keeping the hybrids. Being able to customize your game play is key for some players who don't want to be in cookie cutter builds.

[smallvylle]

Is this the most effective way to balance the class tho? Why can't they just buff the 31 pointers to make them more attractive or provide a reason to using these while still keeping the hybrids. Being able to customize your game play is key for some players who don't want to be in cookie cutter builds.

 

No, it's not. As smart as BW developers are, when it comes to ideas, the sheer amount of players there are, will always out smart BW. Thus these hybrid builds. Instead of killing these ideas, BW should harness them to make the game more fun, not eliminating them by saying "our way or no way."

[Jagerinho]

McGrumpy here. I'm a member of the Shadow community, and a frequent poster on the Shadow boards (EDIT: GENERAL DISCUSSION MODS MOVED MY THREAD TO SHADOW FORUMS). I want to get this out in the forums which have more traffic because I can see this game going down the same paths that Rift did, which led to thousands of lost subscriptions including my own.

 

For those of you that don't play shadows, skip the next several paragraphs down to the overall point of my post, beyond the specifics of the changes to shadows.

 

Shadow Changes

 

The Shadow changes currently up for 1.1.2 completely change the playstyle of several of the most popular specs. The nerf to "stance dancing" for starters takes out a big element of strategy for both pvp and to a lesser extent pve.

 

The biggest change, however, is the NERF (yes NERF) to the ability Force Strike. Currently the top PVE dps (in almost every PVE fight) is a 0/13/28 hybrid spec, which uses shadow technique rather than force tech, despite being deep balance. The change kills this spec 100%, forcing the use of Force Tech to proc Force Strike.

 

For PvP, this change effectively kills the very popular 23/0/18 tank/damage hybrid DPS spec. Additionally, any serious deep balance PvPer ran almost exlusively in Combat Technique still because it was the only way to stay reasonably survivable without having the burst of the Inf specs. As a deep balance Shadow in pvp now, one my core damaging abilities (Force Strike) is now exclusively usable in Force Tech (not only that but limited by the use of force breach on a target!), which combined with the nerf to stance changing, makes my current play style unusable.

 

I'm not saying that these changes are nerfing the overall shadow class. They are nerfing a specific playstyle that isn't "as intended." To continue to PvP like I currently do I'm going to be forced into that cookie cutter 31/0/10 tank build which is getting significantly buffed (bug fixed) this patch, which in no way appeals to me.

 

 

Overall Gameplay Changes

 

For the people that don't care about the specifics of the Shadow changes, this is my overall point:

 

Bioware is significantly changing a set of playstyles for a certain class 6 weeks into the game, AFTER all the endgame content/pvp content has been beaten. They're taking a playstyle that a lot of Shadow players have gotten used to and loved and getting rid of it. Not because it's was overpowered, but because it was an "unintended style of play."

 

I played Rift (an infinitely more polished albeit less quality game), from release and ended up cancelling for this very reason. They constantly changed the classes with the nerf/buff cycle to where any given patch cycle my class was playing significantly different from the previous.

 

Now the mind boggling thing is where these changes came from in the first place. Nobody is crying "nerf shadows" on the forums. And don't get me wrong that are positive Shadow buffs in the notes as well. But for anyone that knows that class well, knows that these changes will significantly alter how the class is played in PvP as well as PvE, and while time will tell if this was good or bad, my point is:

 

I liked the way my class played! I didn't want a big sweeping change! I wasn't overpowered, LET ME BE ME!

 

Imagine how you would of reacted to patch 1.1.1 if you rolled scoundrel.

 

I don't stance dance, and overall I am happy with the changes to the spec - and with the change to force technique's force breach your hybrid DPS should still be good, just no stance switching.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Jagerinho

[Panzerbase]

The huge issue I have here is the cost of combat stance being changed, I spec 31 infiltration and use combat when needed as the situation demands, and the only reason I have to do this is the lack of inherent survivability in dps stance, either of the two for that matter.

 

I had actually thought the balance of switching back and forth was very balanced, it took skill and you made sacrifices for either stance. Now though the "pure" dps specs have to suffer for lack of depth within their trees.

 

And how these changes just came out of left field smack of policy changes not improvements to the game of which many bugs have not been addressed.

[TrevNYC]

The disturbing thing about this change is that it really serves no purpose.

 

Its not nerfing our damage, not nerfing our abilities, and we aren't op so it isn't fixing an imbalance.

 

Its entire purpose is to remove playstyles from the game. The implication is that eventually all hybrid specs will eventually be removed.

 

That's not the implication at all, nor is it the "entire purpose." Hybrid specs (when you have the type of talent-tree system here) cause issues for developers. It's helpful for them to assume that every max-level Kinetic will have Slow Time, and that Infiltration and Balance will have Clairvoyant Strike and Sever Force, respectively, along with most of the talents leading up to those things. It makes it possible for them to make sure the classes perform as they designed them to. They can better ensure that future buffs (or nerfs) to mid and upper parts of the tree will affect that tree only.

 

Despite all the protestations, hybrid specs were "better" at certain things than their full specs were, which is the reason people were speccing into them in the first place. Those players who were speccing into them for utility reasons shouldn't notice a difference, as the same utility is there in the hybrid specs -- they just have to sacrifice effectiveness in their associated trees to do it. But that's supposed to be the side effect of not specializing anyway.

 

Removing playstyles is never a good thing because unless you designed an infinite number of roles into the game you won't be able to fit everyone and that loses you players.

 

Ex. The 23/0/18 build fit me for pvp cause I like to protect teamates and cause problems for the enemy team. To do this most effectively I needed pull, guard, survivability, and dots.

 

You're assuming that you need DoTs to "cause problems" for the other team. The first three things you listed already do, plus there are ways to cause problems without DoTs. This is an example of the thing that developers are afraid of with hybrid specs -- the "one man army" spec that does enough of everything well to make it suboptimal to bother with specialists. When hybrid specs are unchecked, there is a risk that teams would rather have two players with the exact same hybrid spec rather than one full kinetic and one full balance, for example. This actually results in less variety, not more.

 

Put another way, when they remove the hybrid specs, they reintroduce the full specs that people weren't using, so it's not necessarily a net loss.

[rocdogg]

I read what the developers stated about not being terribly interested in hybrid builds, and have been focusing on a single tree with all my characters. I was kind of surprised that hybrids were as viable as they were. Anyway, based on what I was given to understand about the class/spec philosophy of the developers, my shadow is planned out as Infiltration/Upheaval, and won't so be affected, either way.

 

Anyway, this should not have come as a surprise to anyone, based on the developers stated intentions.

[DeltaGun]

I don't play a Shadow but I know they wreck me as a Commando in PvP (actually, all the jedi classes do. They have tremendous pvp utility.)

 

I'm not really suprised they have a few nerfs in store for shadows.

 

I would rather they buff Commando utility rather than nerf Shadows, though.

[TrevNYC]

Is this the most effective way to balance the class tho? Why can't they just buff the 31 pointers to make them more attractive or provide a reason to using these while still keeping the hybrids. Being able to customize your game play is key for some players who don't want to be in cookie cutter builds.

 

That runs the risk of making the tree overpowered and creating a whole new set of problems. Sure, they could kill hybrid builds by buffing Sever Force enough so that it could one-shot people (this is just an example for illustration, obviously they would never do this), but then the tree overall is too powerful.

 

The point about customization and cookie cutter builds is overstated. There's a limit to customization in most games. Whether this game has enough is a fair thing to debate, and one of the reasons "other" games are abandoning the exact talent tree model we have here is because there isn't enough customization at the end of the day once the theorycrafters determine optimal build setups. (e.g., Does anyone actually max nerve wracking? Is there a viable 31/10/0 build?) Even when there is room for variation, there's typically only 1-2 "free" points in an optimal build.

 

But we can't lament the fact that 1.1.2 is bad news for 23/0/18 players who want to do certain things without also acknowledging that the current game is bad news for x/x/31 players who want to do certain things.

[madmilitia]

This 31 point skill argument still does not neccesarily hold up however. Sever force is still not a good pve ability. .

 

i don;t understand how you can say another dot is not good in PVE.

 

sever force allows you to a get healed and b it does damage while you move.

 

explain to me how you guys do nightmare bonthrasher.

[Dovahbrah]

I don't play a Shadow but I know they wreck me as a Commando in PvP (actually, all the jedi classes do. They have tremendous pvp utility.)

 

I'm not really suprised they have a few nerfs in store for shadows.

 

I would rather they buff Commando utility rather than nerf Shadows, though.

 

You should probably learn how to play a spec other than gunnery then.

[madmilitia]

I run 5/5/31 and I could not be more happy with the changes. I wouldn't make generalizations like "any serious balance runs combat tech" I run Force technique and I am one of the more successful balance shadows on my server. Along with the damage up front buff to Force tech, and tech mastery now increasing damage dealt by force tech, my burst damage (which was already great) is now going to be insane. Combine all that with a guaranteed mind crush proc and we are talking serious numbers. Opening looking something like this. FiB>force breach>mindcrush>project>saberstrike>blah blah blah

 

*EDIT* I am blown away at how many people feel like balance is too squishy. After playing both infil and balance extensively at 50, I can confidently say that infil is more squishy than balance. I also hear that balance lacks the control that infil does, sever force is a snare that does not affect resolve, instant force lift, 10 second reduced CD on force stun. The only control you lose from infil is low slash and that is easily replaced by ranged force lift.

 

i agree with you totally, couple questions though.

 

i've always thought that the 6% increase from Expertise on your force brech DOT does more damgae over the duration of a HM or Nightmare ops boss then the 2 or three extra dbl strikes you get in from the 25% 6 secs of force regen.

 

also why don;t you use sever force in your rotation? i assume you were just typeing fast.

[TrevNYC]

i agree with you totally, couple questions though.

 

i've always thought that the 6% increase from Expertise on your force brech DOT does more damgae over the duration of a HM or Nightmare ops boss then the 2 or three extra dbl strikes you get in from the 25% 6 secs of force regen.

 

also why don;t you use sever force in your rotation? i assume you were just typeing fast.

 

I'm not sure if this is the entire answer, but the comparison to Balance shadows who use combat tech means the post was PvP-oriented, because balance shadows have no reason to use that for PvE dps. The choices that you describe as making sense for HM or Nightmare ops bosses wouldn't always apply to PvP.

[DeltaGun]

You should probably learn how to play a spec other than gunnery then.

 

Um there is no more utility in other specs of Commando, you just do damage differently, or heal.

 

You're just trolling because you're butthurt that your precious shadows might be getting a little nerfy-werfy. Grow up, manchild.

Edited February 2, 2012 by DeltaGun

[Boarg]

Sentinels poop on healers better than Infiltration ever will, because they have a healing debuff. If people want to PvP as a Shadow, it's far more effective to either be tanky/utility or a DoT spammer.

 

It's only selfish noobs and teens that think bursting a healer is a more effective strat than dotting everyone up or having stuff like Force Pull at your disposal.

 

Just disagreeing with your assessment...

 

The tanky specs in PvP are definitely useful, and popular, but they aren't necessarily the best thing. It's actually been a bit of a problem in a number of the warzones I've been in lately. Too many tanks on my team. They can't get kills against groups that have healing and just lose slowly.

 

You also say utility...Infiltration has pretty strong PvP utility.

 

Also, dotting up targets is pretty much the worst possible method of delivering damage in a PvP setting - unless it happens to deal massively more total damage, which is not the case for Balance. Dealing damage in big chunks focused on a single target is always much more powerful in a PvP setting.

 

Obtaining a numbers advantage as quickly as possible is pretty much the most consistent and effective way to succeed in PvP, and Infiltration is the Shadow spec best suited to achieving that end.

 

At the very least, Infiltration has a solid role in group PvP. At most, it's arguably the best PvP spec we have before and after the patch for a geared and skilled player.

[Neamhan]

I read what the developers stated about not being terribly interested in hybrid builds, and have been focusing on a single tree with all my characters. I was kind of surprised that hybrids were as viable as they were. Anyway, based on what I was given to understand about the class/spec philosophy of the developers, my shadow is planned out as Infiltration/Upheaval, and won't so be affected, either way.

 

Anyway, this should not have come as a surprise to anyone, based on the developers stated intentions.

 

Why then have they singled out Shadows/Assassins and left every other hybrid spec on every other AC alone? Sages/Sorcerers especially have an incredibly deadly hybrid spec that puts any of the Shadow hybrids to shame, yet it's left alone.

 

Edit to be clear: I'm not asking for Sage nerfs. I have a Sorcerer. What I find mind boggling is the Sorc is around 350 times easier to play than a Shadow, has even more abusive hybrid specs yet the devs decided to focus instead on a hard to play, under-represented AC instead.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Neamhan

[DarkSaberMaster]

Stating this again. If the Devs never intended for hybrid specs to be in the game, then why leave the talent trees open in the first place?

[DjArioch]

I like the changes, they are buffing (fixing actually) Kinetic and changing Balance. Hybrid specs try to get the best of both worlds, this is not intended.

 

I was 23/0/18 pre 1.1 but I am now 31/0/10, Slow Time is just too nice now, but I would seriously consider Balance now. Sever Force is a really nice ability and dot n run can be very effective in pvp.

[DarthOvertone]

I don't think this is a Dealbreaker by any stretch. However, I will have to adapt, and it's a bit of a bummer because I really liked my 23/0/18 build. But if they are buffing the 31/0/10, then of course I will give it a shot. In fact, I will respec tonight to give it a whirl. FiB was really nice. Good range, solid AoE damage, and internal damage to boot which is tough to come by in this game.

 

My guess is the change may have a lot to do with the future as well. Not sure how they are going to expand classes in an xpac, but it seems to me the only way to go is to add capstones. If peeps are happy with their hybrids, then future class progression could be hampered in a sense. Just speculating.

 

The only thing we really lose is some build diversity. While I definitely am in favor of a wide variety, and have had a fun time testing out multiple builds, I don't think we are being overly pigeonholed into specs.

[omgwru]

force strike is garbage to a kinetic / balance hybrid. it rarely procs, hits for garbage, and you rarely ever have the chance to use it, gcd wise. Between FiB, FB, double strike for particle acceleration, you dont have a lot of free gcd's, especially when you're utility heavy and not so much dps focused.

 

Sure it *is* a dps loss in pve, but its not much of one for kinetic / balance. I'm not going to mourn the loss.

 

The rest are all minor dps increases. The buff to procs isn't really a huge buff simply because particle acceleration has a high uptime already, and project eats a ton of force, so you can't spam it.

[elbicnivnimai]

I wish people would quit the 'OMG I QUIT BECAUSE THIS CHANGE' responses. Had we beleived the boards there would be no ops running around with the changes they got. Statements lose their meaning when everyone says they will quit over every change and don't.

 

If you dislike a change then quit... I am sure they have a survey they will ask you to fill out when cancelling and there you can put your objections. Doing that will carry more weight then coming to the forum and tossing around ideal threats which less then 1 in 10 will actually act on.

 

Need proof just look at when Blizzard added Warden to WoW...

 

Oh there are Ops and Scoundrels still in the game, they're just healers now instead. Keep your doubt and negativity, and your poor game designers. I for one will not be adding more gametime.

[elbicnivnimai]

I read what the developers stated about not being terribly interested in hybrid builds, and have been focusing on a single tree with all my characters. I was kind of surprised that hybrids were as viable as they were. Anyway, based on what I was given to understand about the class/spec philosophy of the developers, my shadow is planned out as Infiltration/Upheaval, and won't so be affected, either way.

 

Anyway, this should not have come as a surprise to anyone, based on the developers stated intentions.

 

If they intended to ruin all ideas of Hybrid builds, they should have designed the trees as they intended, not rushed out release in time for Christmas.