So Why is Threat Invisible?

[CaptainHagbard]

No MMO-developer I know of has EVER revealed their threat-mechanics. The only game I know of in which threat is made visible by a community-addon is WoW and they found out how it works by trial and error. The first versions of threat-meters in WoW were virtually unusable.

 

That said: There is a reason, why you normally can't see the threat. It's because it makes the game way too easy for tanks. You have a list with number and you can simply press buttons according to the numbers. That's boring and reminds me more of spreadsheets than gaming. The only thing that's needed for tanks, which is not in the game yet, is a target-of-target-display. So you just need to tab through the mobs and have a pretty good overview of how you are doing.

[Daeada]

No MMO-developer I know of has EVER revealed their threat-mechanics.

 

Once the threat meter became a largely popular community add-on, Blizzard implemented one within the game, that showed EXACT numbers, which were different from the community calculated ones at the time.

 

 

In other words, Blizzard revealed their threat mechanics.

[SlickDevlan]

How so? The same numbers exist whether or not visible to the client.

 

If you can see exactly what threat is, it becomes less important. Once you never lose or steal it, it becomes irrelevant.

[Sabarok]

So, not that I agree with it, but all of that is why threat is hidden. Because it props up the illusion in a trinity MMO that you're interacting with different people who have consequences on each other, rather than managing your specific set of bars while you play an elaborate game of DDR on your keyboard.

 

Good post, but this last part is brilliant.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

I kinda think they have a bit more important thing's to focus on like...bugs in game, fixing a high res texure fix. They stated this graphic's were so amazing it caused some of the most powerfull machines to crash. I really don't see this as something that should be on top of the list.

 

Out of everything that people have debated about in this game, bugs, high res graphics to freezing. I really think they should focus on what they have now current content and fixing it. I don't think it would be that productive to invest time and resources on this at this stage.

 

It's almost nearly amazing that this thread has gotten so many reply's. Out of everything out of state of the game. You truly think they should drop everything they are doing to add a new model of threat meter's in game..yeah going put that idea next to recount. Not going happen in near future thankfully.

[Drallbait]

IMO, some gameplay mechanics should just not be a bar on your screen.

 

I know its handy, and its saved me over DPSing in the past, but it is very different than Health and Mana (or whatever the equivalent mechanic if for ability utilization). There are other parameters in play all the time - I don't want the game to become a bunch of bars you monitor.

 

This is right around where I draw the line though. So if they ever did include a threat meter it wouldn't be a big deal to me.

[Ashu-ri]

I have to say, I came from a game with no threat meters (LOTRO) and I never missed it. You generally knew who would pull threat off of you after playing consistently with them. Or in certain instances, it was always the healer. Tank dies, healer gets dead, group wipe. Or tank doesn't keep aggro, healer gets dead, group wipe. But it's never something that an add on was actually developed for in the 2 years add ons have been available (probably because Turbine doesn't release the threat numbers). We figure it out.

[SlickDevlan]

And neither does having a resource bar. Most could have cleared the same content without one or those either. People got by for a very long time without cell phones, but I bet most wouldn't just toss theirs in the garbage. Sure life would go on, but would it be better?

 

Since you can see the resource bar, it would then be something you do "need to see". I know this rather obvious situation is confusing and frightening for you, but if you stick with it I'm sure you'll figure it out.

 

And what does obsolescence have to do with a game mechanic? Are you just pulling inane analogies out of thin air?

[Illuziun]

Threat meters, lol, WoW noobs.

[demonolithic]

Wow. Some of the oversimplified caveman responses are funny. Fact is it's just another feature the game may not "Need" but could very well "Use". Edited February 2, 2012 by demonolithic

[Classicalbor]

ONCE AGAIN another person looking for another way for the game to hold your hand.

 

No game (as far as i know and i've played) has EVER flooded the GUI with yet another meter to check. In most previous games if you have stolen aggro from the main tank you either turn your **** off, heal yourself, use a jolt - type or threat reduction skill, and keep going.

 

Its not THAT DIFFICULT.

 

Same with tanks and previous taunt-like abilities for threat generation. It does not need to be seen.. if they are taking the main damage and focus of the enemy why do they need to see how much threat they are doing, keep poppin your taunt-like abilities like you're supposed to (or when threat IS lost to get it back immediately).

 

This will never be implemented, go home.

[Kithalt]

You have a list with number and you can simply press buttons according to the numbers. That's boring and reminds me more of spreadsheets than gaming.

Why does everyone seem to think that some sort of threat indicator would need to be a meter with numbers? Just having a bar with three or four different colors that change depending on your relative threat level would be better than no information at all.

[LyriaFrost]

I have to say, I came from a game with no threat meters (LOTRO) and I never missed it. You generally knew who would pull threat off of you after playing consistently with them. Or in certain instances, it was always the healer. Tank dies, healer gets dead, group wipe. Or tank doesn't keep aggro, healer gets dead, group wipe. But it's never something that an add on was actually developed for in the 2 years add ons have been available (probably because Turbine doesn't release the threat numbers). We figure it out.

 

No no no, see, you're not ALLOWED to "figure it out". You're supposed to just stare at your threat meter! You can't "learn" anything, or "think" to figure things out! This is an MMO! It's supposed to just be all about number-crunching and watching flashing numbers!

 

But yeah, it's funny to listen to people argue that you "have to have" a threat meter or it's somehow impossible to do things properly. I guess those of us who've been playing MMOs for years without them just "don't know how to play", eh?

 

It's kind of a self-fulfilling ego-trip, in a way. Having threat meter = makes game easier = successfully beating 'harder' content = makes players think they're highly skilled.

 

Whereas if people beat the same content without all their meters and doodads, they'd just call them "lucky", or "well, yeah, but we did it more easily, cause we're better", etc.

 

Never realizing that it's all their meters and charts that's MAKING it easier, not their skill.

 

Like I said, it's akin to training wheels. Having them makes riding a bike easier. Without them, it's harder. But more rewarding. Working without meters and addons and all the other doodads requires more knowledge on the player's part. Not just of their own class, but of all the classes working with them.

Edited February 2, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[romandaemon]

How is your threat visible?

 

Saying "the mob is either attacking me or it's not" is a comment on aggro, not threat.

 

Threat is invisibl

e.

 

Its not t that hard man, you are trying.g to overpressure based on other mmo experiences you had. Imagine this was a single player game....how would you gauge it? You smash things and have fun...you see mon going to another group member...you taunt and continue to smash. This is not an excel sheet, its just a game...you don't need to approach it with mathematical precision...its just not that kind of game, thankfully.

[racsofp]

If you aren't looking at threat meter bars and dps graphs you're doing it wrong.

 

This is Excel we're playing and graphs and bars and blinking numbers are how you pl-----

 

*hurried, whispered conversation*

 

It's just come to my attention we are not playing Excel. Carry on...

[Aloro]

It's invisible because the binary nature of threat (I have enough to be the primary target of X/I don't have enough to be the primary target of X) means stripping out another level of obfuscation in PvE content by making it visible.

 

While I agreed with most of what you posted, I wanted to point out that the above is inaccurate.

 

"Aggro" is basically "a monster's current attention", and is binary; you either have aggro, or you do not. Nobody is asking for an aggro meter, since it's already pretty obvious (if you're paying attention) who has aggro.

 

"Threat" is basically "how much a monster hates you", and is not binary; it's a spectrum from "doesn't know you exist" to "hates you so much that you have aggro". Because threat is based on all your actions compared to all your allies' actions, it can be hard to gauge how much threat you've built up. That's why some people want threat meters.

[XLauncher]

You know what the conflict in this thread reminds me of? Moneyball and the whole conflict between sabermetrics and traditional gut based wisdom. In this topic, you've got one side arguing for the availability of empirical and objective metrics to use in their play and you've got the other side insisting that they can "feel" out the mechanics and that they're better for doing so.

 

That's all I've really got to say on that.

[Zatoni]

While I agreed with most of what you posted, I wanted to point out that the above is inaccurate.

 

"Aggro" is basically "a monster's current attention", and is binary; you either have aggro, or you do not. Nobody is asking for an aggro meter, since it's already pretty obvious (if you're paying attention) who has aggro.

 

"Threat" is basically "how much a monster hates you", and is not binary; it's a spectrum from "doesn't know you exist" to "hates you so much that you have aggro". Because threat is based on all your actions compared to all your allies' actions, it can be hard to gauge how much threat you've built up. That's why some people want threat meters.

 

That's a fair criticism. I guess I could have said "the typical implications of threat are typically binary". Generally, games with a central threat mechanic are balanced such that everyone doing their thing does roughly X amount of threat, and a tank doing his thing does X+Y, with the Y buffer varying from game to game. Usually something that heavily messes with the idea of threat only mattering in terms of aggro (things like secondary targets chosen by threat level, tank-targeted disables that require an off-tank, or threat resets) is a specific exception/mechanic for a particular fight. But the post was already on the long side.

 

It's a fair point, though.

[DukSaber]

I am the tank.

 

Is the enemy attacking me? Y/N

 

If Y, check next enemy.

 

If N, attack enemy until he attacks me.

 

How is this so hard to understand?

 

 

Baddie.

[dargor-]

I am the tank.

 

Is the enemy attacking me? Y/N

 

If Y, check next enemy.

 

If N, attack enemy until he attacks me.

 

How is this so hard to understand?

 

Bad tanks, bad tanks everywhere.

 

Thank god this game has no real challenging encounters.

[TooTall_Jedi]

Personally I don't like the idea of having a threat meter. To me, part of the challenge is knowing your class and learning to have a feel for how much damage you can do before pulling aggro off the tank . As a tank part of the challenge is getting a feel for when you need to toss an attack or taunt to a mob to maintain aggro.

 

It isn't perfect science but the more you play your character and try encounters, the more you will learn to be more efficient with them. Could you be more efficient if you had a meter? Absoultely. Is it necessary? Not even for a second.

[LyriaFrost]

You know what the conflict in this thread reminds me of? Moneyball and the whole conflict between sabermetrics and traditional gut based wisdom. In this topic, you've got one side arguing for the availability of empirical and objective metrics to use in their play and you've got the other side insisting that they can "feel" out the mechanics and that they're better for doing so.

 

That's all I've really got to say on that.

 

Except that's not it.

 

If I use, let's say, Kick Mob in Face with my tank, it generates a certain amount of threat. I know, from using it over and over in groups, that it generates enough threat to overcome the two DPS guys behind me firing off two Make Holes in Mob attacks. On their third attack, they'll overcome the threat of my attack. Now, I also know that if I chain Knee Mob in Groin after Kick Mob in Face, it generates enough threat to overcome five of their attacks.

 

It's not just "gut feeling". I know, precisely, how much threat I'm causing, based on attacks/heals of other classes. Do I have numbers up on a meter? Nope. I go by what I've learned, and experimented with. I've learned how my class works, and how it interacts with other classes.

 

Back in DAoC, we used to have lots of fun determining just how much threat certain abilities could cause. Back then taunts weren't "force mob to attack", it was "causes lots of threat". You could hit a mob with a taunt and stop, just blocking and watching, and see how long it took for your party members to pull it off of you. It was a learning process, and quite often a rewarding one.

 

Now? People want the raw numbers. They want to know that their current threat with the mob is 100%. If it starts dropping, it's essentially their meter saying "Hey dummy, you need to build more threat". This doesn't require any more SKILL on their part. It just requires them to watch another window on the screen. You could write a simple if-then program to accomplish the same thing. If (threat)<90%, then (threat building move).

 

To me, all the addons, macros, meters and other things just dumb down the game. They make it more about watching all those numbers rather than PLAYING the game. I play games to enjoy myself, not to sit there staring at threat meters, dps rotation trackers, and other such nonsense. Does that mean I'm only performing at 95% of "optimal" rather than 100%? Maybe. Do I care? Nope.

 

If they want to add threat meters to the game to satisfy the whiners who can't handle a game without them, so be it. But are they NECESSARY? No. They're just demanded by people who don't seem to be able to function without the game spoon-feeding everything to them.

Edited February 2, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[Banith]

Is the enemy attacking me? Y/N

 

With not showing the target of my target there are some mobs that you can't actually tell who they are targeting. This droid which has no discernible front is attacking someone in melee range as lasers are not hitting a ranged but there are so many effects going on I can't tell if it is hitting me or not.

[DarkCarnage]

Except that's not it.

 

If I use, let's say, Kick Mob in Face with my tank, it generates a certain amount of threat. I know, from using it over and over in groups, that it generates enough threat to overcome the two DPS guys behind me firing off two Make Holes in Mob attacks. On their third attack, they'll overcome the threat of my attack. Now, I also know that if I chain Knee Mob in Groin after Kick Mob in Face, it generates enough threat to overcome five of their attacks.

 

It's not just "gut feeling". I know, precisely, how much threat I'm causing, based on attacks/heals of other classes. Do I have numbers up on a meter? Nope. I go by what I've learned, and experimented with. I've learned how my class works, and how it interacts with other classes.

 

Back in DAoC, we used to have lots of fun determining just how much threat certain abilities could cause. Back then taunts weren't "force mob to attack", it was "causes lots of threat". You could hit a mob with a taunt and stop, just blocking and watching, and see how long it took for your party members to pull it off of you. It was a learning process, and quite often a rewarding one.

 

Now? People want the raw numbers. They want to know that their current threat with the mob is 100%. If it starts dropping, it's essentially their meter saying "Hey dummy, you need to build more threat". This doesn't require any more SKILL on their part. It just requires them to watch another window on the screen. You could write a simple if-then program to accomplish the same thing. If (threat)<90%, then (threat building move).

 

To me, all the addons, macros, meters and other things just dumb down the game. They make it more about watching all those numbers rather than PLAYING the game. I play games to enjoy myself, not to sit there staring at threat meters, dps rotation trackers, and other such nonsense. Does that mean I'm only performing at 95% of "optimal" rather than 100%? Maybe. Do I care? Nope.

 

If they want to add threat meters to the game to satisfy the whiners who can't handle a game without them, so be it. But are they NECESSARY? No. They're just demanded by people who don't seem to be able to function without the game spoon-feeding everything to them.

 

but this ally works if they doing simualr damge spreads. what if one doing more then the other by a larger margen, so 1 his attacks+arua+buffs+misc have him cuase the threats of 2 of the other guys attacks?

 

now i be upfront i'ma dps, but when i notice the mobs starting to turn to me due to massive damage ooutput vs tanks hate holding i tone it down a little. till the tank can hold it while i keep my attack rythem steady.

[pipda]

Target of Target would be nice, some mobs you can't tell whats a face and a butt, probe droids in EV for example, thats not even counting buggy animations from say the turrets.

 

Threat meters are most useful for DPS and an mechanics where your second tank needs to be #2 on the meters. Not saying tanks can't get use from them.

 

Target of Target would be a modern feature worth having...however...due to tall the other crap this game is missing or is broke I doubt we will see this for a while.